Vinyl records vs. Cds.

[FalloutBoy]

Originally Posted by jameskg

meh..

perfect cd in perfect cd player will always lose to perfect vinyl on perfect turntable when played back through the same amp & speakers.

Can you explain why the cd would lose to the vinyl?

Originally Posted by sleepless

Although I prefer Vinyl over digital, I have my own very unscientific reasons for justifying:

1. Speakers are analog
2. Vinyl is analog...seems a natural match

That doesn't really make any sense. And the signal coming out of D/A-converter is also 100% analog.

3. Vinyl has a "warmth" that is missing in digital. I can't really can't define warmth, but it is a obvious difference that I hear.
4. It is the same difference between using tube amps vs. solid state, you lose something when you take those little lit-up, heat producing tubes out of the equation.

In both cases it's not really a case of losing or missing something. The warmth (harmonic distortion) is actually added by vinyl and tube amps.

[Five]

excellent post... I understand much better now thanks very much

Originally Posted by FalloutBoy

The sampling rate determines the bandwidth (frequency range) of the recording. The practical reason for increasing the sample rate in digital systems is because it makes it easier (and cheaper) to implement low-pass filters.

could you explain what you mean here? how does it make it easier and cheaper to implement LPF and what is the practical use?

I normally use 24bit/44.1kHz (or 32bit/44.1kHz) when there's some adjustments to be made. Not only for better signal-to-noise/dynamic range but to avoid the re-re-re-re-re-rounding off of sample values if there's some processing happening before I dither down to 16bit/44.1kHz.

Am I understanding correctly that you do not recommend using a sample rate above 44.1kHz ?

thanks

[FalloutBoy]

Originally Posted by Five

excellent post... I understand much better now thanks very much

That's great to hear!

Originally Posted by Five

could you explain what you mean here? how does it make it easier and cheaper to implement LPF and what is the practical use?

I can see how that was a bit unclear, sorry about that. I was actually referring to the workings of D/A-converters.
But it's actually not technically correct to (as I did) refer to oversampling as increasing the sample rate. It is more of an interpolation of the data.

Here is an brief explanation of oversampling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling

I normally use 24bit/44.1kHz (or 32bit/44.1kHz) when there's some adjustments to be made. Not only for better signal-to-noise/dynamic range but to avoid the re-re-re-re-re-rounding off of sample values if there's some processing happening before I dither down to 16bit/44.1kHz.

That's a good practice.

Am I understanding correctly that you do not recommend using a sample rate above 44.1kHz ?

I think this is a good rule: "The optimal sample rate should be largely based on the required signal bandwidth." - Sampling Theory For Digital Audio, Dan Lavry

[VonOben]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

if you look at a sine wave recorded analogue [smooth wave shape], as opposed to the same sine recorded digitally [stairsteps], you'll understand why -- it all comes down to the 1's and 0's of digital

This is not true. Alot of people tend to beleive it is true, and so did I not too long ago.

However, it's not at all trivial to understand why this isn't true.

The CD-format, if implemented correctly, can reproduce all waveforms < 22.05kHz perfect. The mathematics behind this is called the Sinc-function: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinc_function

I understand this enougth to understand that it's true, but I do not understand it well enougth to explain it, so please don't ask questions.

[VonOben]

A little bit of clarification to my previous post, more specific the line "can reproduce all waveforms < 22.05kHz perfect."

This is only true for < not for =. Vinyl have very little signal, if any at all, that high up. It does however have alot of distortion in this range if a signal is present. (Alot of people tend to like this distortion! I do too, at times!)

It is also only true within it's dynamic range. Vinyl as a system has a dynamic range that is alot worse than cd, but because of the loudness war the mastering techs destroys this huge advantage, and turns it into a disadvantage; vinyl can't be as compressed as cd for mechanical reasons.

[AAR.oner]

thats what they claim...maybe so, maybe no...mathematical theory is pretty interesting like that

[Five]

damn... this is like a political thread!

[dasmueller]

Found this on another site and thought it might be of interest to some.

http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cd...-vinyl-5352162

I find the discussion about the dynamic range of digital vs vinyl on "classical" recordings interesting. It reminds me of one of the 1st CD's I bought which was a recording of the 1812 Overture. I felt that I could hear things that were missing before. I did not have a vinyl copy of the same performance, but that is how it sounded to me at the time.

[Homebrew101]

Originally Posted by dasmueller

Found this on another site and thought it might be of interest to some.

http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cd...-vinyl-5352162

I find the discussion about the dynamic range of digital vs vinyl on "classical" recordings interesting. It reminds me of one of the 1st CD's I bought which was a recording of the 1812 Overture. I felt that I could hear things that were missing before. I did not have a vinyl copy of the same performance, but that is how it sounded to me at the time.

My brother has long had what was considered one of the most difficult LP's for a turntable to accurately track which is the 1812 Overture with live cannons firing. Most people's systems will fail to reproduce the dynamics contained in the grooves, either your cartridge will not be able to track it or it and /or your speakers cannot reproduce the extreme low bass and dynamics of the cannon fire but that release is the exception, extreme dynamics and low bass grooves need a lot of space between grooves on vinyl. Technically speaking greater dynamics are possible with cd vs. vinyl.

Vinyl does have some limitations, the inner grooves will tend to sound worse than the outer because of the speed/distance the needle is travelling in the inner grooves. The RIAA required equalization curve for disc equalization exists because of the nature of the cutting head used to gouge the groove into the lacquer master disc, and that of the pickup cartridge used to replay the pressed vinyl record. Extreme low frequencies (under 20hz) can excite the turntable arm and cartridge causing resonances. So most LP's have the frequencies under 20 or 30hz cut out, not necessary on cd, although most people's systems couldn't reproduce signals much lower anyway, you need a quality subwoofer to get 25hz or lower. Although cd has an upper frequency limit of 22.05khz which vinyl isn't limited to but freqs above 20khz is pretty much entirely noise and distortion on vinyl. some will say the human ear can only hear freqs between 20hz-20khz and that is fairly accurate except freqs under 20hz can be easily felt rather than heard thus are still crucial.

Most mass produced records from the 60's on were made of shitty vinyl which is why we used to buy Japanese pressings made on virgin vinyl. American record companies melted down old records for new vinyl except they never bothered to clean the records or even remove the labels prior to meltdown - take a look at those records under a blacklight and be prepared to be shocked vs. a virgin vinyl release.

Of course the cd problems include how the first decade or so of digital recording and mastering sucked ass until engineers learned how to work in digital. And of course all of the recent remasterings suffering from the "Loudness" wars does make many go back to the old vinyl. The cost of a decent analog system to maximize the best sound from vinyl likely greatly exceeds the cost of a decent digital system but that is very objective depending on how critical a listener one is.

[dasmueller]

71G126xZBJL__SX425_.jpg

This is the recording I was referencing . Catch the note at top left referencing digital cannons.

Liner notes state-" WARNING The cannons of the Telarc Digital "1812" are recorded at a very high level. Lower levels are recommended for initial playback until a safe level can be determined for your equipment."