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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2012-08-06, 03:42 AM
vold911 vold911 is offline
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DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

I decided to rip the audio track of some of my Sabbath DVDs with PCM audio.
To my surprise several of them seem to be lossy and not lossless.
Some of these DVDs are old enough that they obviousely was taped using analog video cameras and then transfered to dvd.

Ill post some Spectral analysis pictures of various DVDs and hope someone can help me determine if they are lossy or lossless.
Ill also post links to the wav track and a 15 second excerpt of the wav track if anyone should feel inspired and want to download and do analysis from scratch themselves.

EDIT: its obvious the last one, 1999 01 12 is lossy, so unless you think otherwise, no need for help on that one

1975 09 04 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/01Z0MNDRY5W
1975 09 04 http://www.packupload.com/NH77NDHNLUJ
1970 12 19 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/GOLB26ZI8TN
1970 12 19 http://http://www.packupload.com/WPB1O54P5QQ
1989 11 25 http://www.packupload.com/EMA2T700I1M
1989 11 25 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/MMCPKFTF433
1992 06 23 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/W4G5QM1418S
1992 06 23 http://www.packupload.com/ZA35H072L12
1992 09 12 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/S0BH1VH2655
1992 09 12 http://www.packupload.com/7PLR80XYSBM
1992 11 15 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/O2C4ADX6FXH
1992 11 15 http://www.packupload.com/4ONW95P2IU9
1998 06 13 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/NDE4Z13EHXR
1998 06 13 http://www.packupload.com/WZLYQRY16NU
1998 06 30 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/SZ3JB8BHR81
1998 06 30 http://www.packupload.com/ZRQ2AE1M5Z6
1999 01 12 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/IM3GL1NAMRN
1999 01 12 http://www.packupload.com/7DU6AWLOQ6Q
2001 06 08 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/3Q20U3H4X3G
2001 06 08 http://www.packupload.com/SOB285GEJGC
2004 08 26 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/UHO3MB43C1T
2004 08 26 http://www.packupload.com/DESG53H2982
2005 06 29 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/O3N5SJIUNZP
2005 06 29 http://www.packupload.com/DB671MZEBXK
2012 05 19 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/YF8N7GPGQ3D
2012 05 19 http://www.packupload.com/0AE4OKUFA0I

First ill post one that is obviousely lossy and one that is (as far as I can tell) lossless.

1992 06 30 Lossy
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spctral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis


2004 07 10 Lossless
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis


These below are the ones im wondering about:

2001 06 08
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

2001 06 08 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/3Q20U3H4X3G
2001 06 08 http://www.packupload.com/SOB285GEJGC

2004 08 26
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

2004 08 26 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/UHO3MB43C1T
2004 08 26 http://www.packupload.com/DESG53H2982

2005 06 29
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

2005 06 29 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/O3N5SJIUNZP
2005 06 29 http://www.packupload.com/DB671MZEBXK

2012 05 19
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

2012 05 19 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/YF8N7GPGQ3D
2012 05 19 http://www.packupload.com/0AE4OKUFA0I

1970 12 19
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1970 12 19 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/GOLB26ZI8TN
1970 12 19 http://http://www.packupload.com/WPB1O54P5QQ

1975 09 04
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1975 09 04 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/01Z0MNDRY5W
1975 09 04 http://www.packupload.com/NH77NDHNLUJ

1989 11 25
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1989 11 25 http://www.packupload.com/EMA2T700I1M
1989 11 25 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/MMCPKFTF433

1992 06 23
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1992 06 23 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/W4G5QM1418S
1992 06 23 http://www.packupload.com/ZA35H072L12

1992 09 12
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1992 09 12 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/S0BH1VH2655
1992 09 12 http://www.packupload.com/7PLR80XYSBM

1992 11 15
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1992 11 15 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/O2C4ADX6FXH
1992 11 15 http://www.packupload.com/4ONW95P2IU9

1998 06 13
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1998 06 13 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/NDE4Z13EHXR
1998 06 13 http://www.packupload.com/WZLYQRY16NU

1998 06 30
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1998 06 30 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/SZ3JB8BHR81
1998 06 30 http://www.packupload.com/ZRQ2AE1M5Z6

1999 01 12
Frequency Analysis


Unzoomed Spectral Analysis


Zoomed Spectral Analysis

1999 01 12 excerpt http://www.packupload.com/IM3GL1NAMRN
1999 01 12 http://www.packupload.com/7DU6AWLOQ6Q

Last edited by vold911; 2012-08-07 at 06:59 AM.
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  #2  
Old 2012-08-07, 02:07 AM
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Hey there vold911.

It would be helpful is you had FA's for these. But just looking at what you posted I'd say:

1992-06-30: Lossy. It's compressed to the shithouse. Also, the equipment used would add to this response.

1970-12-19: Equipment used would give you this.

1975-09-04: Equipment used would give you this.

1998-06-13: Compressed

1999-01-12: More lossy than compressed (both actually). Unusual that it has a 14kHz cut-off.


The rest are lossless!


Can you please post FA's for the above. I'm curious.
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Old 2012-08-07, 03:23 AM
vold911 vold911 is offline
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonebloke View Post
Hey there vold911.

It would be helpful is you had FA's for these. But just looking at what you posted I'd say:

1992-06-30: Lossy. It's compressed to the shithouse. Also, the equipment used would add to this response.

1970-12-19: Equipment used would give you this.

1975-09-04: Equipment used would give you this.

1998-06-13: Compressed

1999-01-12: More lossy than compressed (both actually). Unusual that it has a 14kHz cut-off.


The rest are lossless!


Can you please post FA's for the above. I'm curious.
1970-12-19: Equipment used would give you this.

1975-09-04: Equipment used would give you this.

what do you mean by this? do you mean the equipment used would give this lossy or lossless result?

and whats the difference between compressed and lossy?
lossy is lossy, but does compressed mean lossy because its compressed or what?
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Old 2012-08-07, 04:50 AM
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vold911 View Post
1970-12-19: Equipment used would give you this.

1975-09-04: Equipment used would give you this.

what do you mean by this? do you mean the equipment used would give this lossy or lossless result?

and whats the difference between compressed and lossy?
lossy is lossy, but does compressed mean lossy because its compressed or what?

In regards to these 70's shows (which I'm guessing were/are analogue recordings:-
"Equipment used would give you this"= the recorder+mics+pre-amp(if used) that was used to tape the show. Different combinations of equipment will give you different results. Also, different combinations of the settings of the equipment used will add to the mess.

1970-12-19 + 1975-09-04 are lossless but the quality of the recording (the fullness of the audio spectrum through to @ 20 kHz and above (which are useless to us humans), compared to what you can find nowadays, is different.

Lossy= Quote:"Lossy compression is a data reduction method that reduces the amount of data during the coding process, but retains enough information to be useful. For example, an MP3 file is a lossy music file that discards some of the original data but is still acceptable for music listening. The advantage of lossy compression is that the music file takes much less storage space."

Basically lossy is the loss of information (that cannot be returned to the individual file). You can compress a file without making it lossy but too much compression will make it lossy.


Look it up on Wikipedia!
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Old 2012-08-07, 05:09 AM
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Most of those look lossless.

A couple are obviously lossy, but maybe just that source was all they could get.

The lines just below 16khz on several of them is common to see in analog transfers and is the noise generated by the flyback in a CRT.

They went with PCM because, it seems, most of them are lossless transfers. The ones that aren't are just in that format to match the rest of the compilation.
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  #6  
Old 2012-08-07, 05:57 AM
vold911 vold911 is offline
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonebloke View Post
In regards to these 70's shows (which I'm guessing were/are analogue recordings:-
"Equipment used would give you this"= the recorder+mics+pre-amp(if used) that was used to tape the show. Different combinations of equipment will give you different results. Also, different combinations of the settings of the equipment used will add to the mess.

1970-12-19 + 1975-09-04 are lossless but the quality of the recording (the fullness of the audio spectrum through to @ 20 kHz and above (which are useless to us humans), compared to what you can find nowadays, is different.

Lossy= Quote:"Lossy compression is a data reduction method that reduces the amount of data during the coding process, but retains enough information to be useful. For example, an MP3 file is a lossy music file that discards some of the original data but is still acceptable for music listening. The advantage of lossy compression is that the music file takes much less storage space."

Basically lossy is the loss of information (that cannot be returned to the individual file). You can compress a file without making it lossy but too much compression will make it lossy.


Look it up on Wikipedia!
i know what lossy means and equipment etc. just wondered in regards to the lossy/lossless thingy if your comments said anything about that
ill post FA now
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  #7  
Old 2012-11-07, 04:34 PM
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Re: DVD PCM Audio track rips, lossy?

Just to be clear (or to complicate things - haha) compression can mean two entirely different things:

Audio compression refers to the limiting of dynamics (loud vs. quiet passages), taking soft sounds and making them louder and louder passages are made a little less loud so that there is little change in volume levels across an entire recording.

Data compression refers to making a lossless recording fit into a smaller file format, i.e.: taking a .wav file and turning it into an eMPty3 file.

Neither one is really that good, but in this case it's the data compression that is REALLY our enemy here!
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