The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?
 

Notices

Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2010-02-11, 08:28 AM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Audio - Matrix question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

I have a show that I'd like to upload, but it's kind of done in an oddball way...

It is a post-production multitrack mixdown that was originally captured on 4 different stereo recording devices to make 8 discrete channels that I mixed down later. This was originally recorded in 2005, when MiniDisc was still not that bad, remember, so the MD lineage is alright. read on...

It is a singer-songwriter with piano. Her name is Allison Crowe.

These are the 4 pairs of sources used:
A) Two channels (stereo piano mic pair) were captured direct from soundboard to computer as a stereo (hard left - right) wav file.
B) Two channels were recorded from the soundboard to an atrac MD (vocal mic and another mic on the piano panned hard left - right).
C) Two ambient mics were plugged into another atrac MD unit, but picked up a bad buzz from the lighting dimmer box. I did my best to de-noise this source, but part of this recording is still buzzing, in particular the first half of the show.
D) An Edirol R-04 recorder captured part of the show for another ambient layer. This only recorded the first half of the show and neatly replaces the noisier part of the MD recording...

I imported all 8 channels into Cubase, and after careful addition of some select plug-ins (vocal compression that was needed, some reverb, etc..) I exported a stereo mixdown file.

Here's the rub : source A (piano) is totally lossless, source B and C are MD lossy but recorded well before the 2008 ban on MiniDisc, but source D was recorded as an eMPty3 file.

Sources C and D are there for crowd noise and added natural reverb room sound. The denoised buzzing MD has more artifacts than the 320cbr eMPty3, but the artifacts are not really heard above the direct feeds of sources A and B. The lossy source D layer lasts for about 45 minutes of this almost 2 hour show...

Could it be allowed here?

Here's a track of the mixdown as a sample of the finished product:
http://hotfile.com/dl/25081733/75e10..._Know.wav.html

The show is mostly acceptable, only part of it has the mp3 layer (including the sample)...

Can I?
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2010-02-11, 08:38 PM
dcbullet's Avatar
dcbullet dcbullet is offline
Anti-Temperance League
TTD Staff
68.39 GB/422.37 GB/6.18
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

No, but could without the mp3 source.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2010-02-11, 09:32 PM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbullet View Post
No, but could without the mp3 source.
Well, I won't be remixing it just to put it here. No worries, it's probably nothing anyone here would care about anyway.

This isn't exactly what I would call a normal bootleg. I have been an official bootlegger of Alley's for years. In full co-operation with her management, I am soon going to upload a few of the recordings I've made over the years so far.

This one turned out to probably be the best mix of a show that I have, despite the small bit of eMPty3 ambience recording that is shunned here. For some reason the MD aud source had too much damage from interference, and I acquired a much less noisy source to replace it.

The final mix is lossless, doesn't that mean anything?
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2010-02-11, 11:08 PM
pmonk's Avatar
pmonk pmonk is offline
510.95 GB/621.08 GB/1.22
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

Sources C and D are there for crowd noise and added natural reverb room sound.

In your opinion, how much is crowd noise compared to music?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2010-02-11, 11:29 PM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Audio - Matrix Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmonk View Post
Sources C and D are there for crowd noise and added natural reverb room sound.

In your opinion, how much is crowd noise compared to music?
I would honestly say that during the music the ambient tracks are maybe 20% of what you hear (real room sound reverb and natural delay), but the applause really only comes through in the ambient tracks. Without it the recording is a dry stale sounding typical soundboard, I guess. Grab the sample and have a listen. That is from the 45 minutes that has the R-04 mp3 mixed in... IMHO it's warmer and richer and fuller this way, and if I didn't mention it nobody would know the difference between the first half of the show (with mp3 ambiance) and the second half (with de-noised MD).
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2010-02-12, 12:10 AM
paddington's Avatar
paddington paddington is offline
please look after this bear
TTD Staff
83.17 GB/882.10 GB/10.61
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

There is a discussion going on about things like this and I think we'll reach a solution soon.
__________________
"There are some of these recordings where it is just a whirring, and you cannot hear the music. " - Jimmy Page, 2007 / JUL / 26
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2010-02-12, 01:05 AM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

I know I can easily upload it almost anyplace else - that's a given, but I thought that maybe I'd try offering up my recording here in case someone would like to hear a new artist. She is currently working on what I believe is her 7th record, and in fact she'll be putting a couple of my recordings (with some additional orchestrations) on her new album - including a track from this concert...

This is a mixed-lineage multitrack mixdown, it isn't a soundboard recording nor a matrix SBD/AUD, and mostly it is lossless or acceptable lossy (pre 2008 MD). There is a hint of mp3 in part of the show blended with the lossless and "pseudo-lossless" tracks. The final mixdown is lossless...

Grab the sample song from my first post and test it out.

As some background on Alley, here's a couple of YouTube clips for you.
There's over 4 million YouTube hits on this track:
YouTube Video


Here's a track from another show that I recorded for them...
YouTube Video
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2010-06-17, 04:55 AM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskg View Post
There is a discussion going on about things like this and I think we'll reach a solution soon.
Hey there, just wondering if any "final" decisions have been made about stuff like this - you know, mixed lineage matrix mixes and things of that nature...

Here's how the "finished" product came out on her CD - my original mixdown with MD and eMPty3 with wav recordings plus another layer of synth-y strings...
YouTube Video



I would really like to share it here. It is pre-2008 so the MD part isn't an issue. It is only part of the show that has a layer of mp3 in it for natural reverb - there's still plenty of completely lossless data in the mixdown!

Whadda ya think?
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #9  
Old 2010-06-23, 03:04 PM
AAR.oner's Avatar
AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
TTD Staff
1.11 TB/1.41 TB/1.27
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Appalachia
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

i personally wouldn't have a problem with it, given its not a "key element" so to speak, and given yer knowledge/experience in the recording world

but it does open up a can of worms we don't want to deal with, so it would have to be a one-time exception for you alone

i'll report this for staff and see if we can't come to a consensus
__________________
TTD's Gear Lust Forum -- info & reviews on taping gear
The Basics of EQing
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #10  
Old 2010-08-24, 12:36 PM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.93 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Audio - Matrix Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

hey now!

Wondering if the gang have had a chance to mull this over and come to that consensus yet?

I have the can of worms and the can opener at the ready! haha

Yes, exactly, it is not a "key element" in the recording, and only lasts for part of it....
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #11  
Old 2010-11-09, 11:39 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: question about uploading a multitrack matrix with several sources

its a technical 'no' for the time being sorry
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
Uploading Question - livejamz Technobabble 1 2007-06-29 10:20 AM
Question about uploading - gardawg62 Technobabble 3 2007-01-29 08:45 PM
Another Uploading Question (Way Too Low) - Emmett T. Jones Technobabble 1 2006-11-08 01:39 AM
Another Uploading Question (Way Too Low) - Emmett T. Jones Technobabble 6 2006-11-04 03:29 PM
ABC Uploading Question - sporkboy Technobabble 5 2005-05-31 01:26 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:52 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts