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  #1  
Old 2010-01-05, 07:21 AM
Mandrax Mandrax is offline
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High definition .ts and .mkv files

HD transport streams and Matroschka container
Recently stumbled across a puzzle which is still unresolved, hopefully some experts might have a clue and enlighten my path.

Software used :
DVB Viewer to save HD stream
Mediainfo http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/de
GDS Mux http://haali.su/mkv/
tsMuxeR http://www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html
TsDoctor http://www.cypheros.de
mkvmerge (mkvtoolnix) http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkv...downloads.html

In order to have a clear reference I cleaned an error-free 59mn 58s HD transport test stream with TsDoctor, which resulted in a size of 5.47 GB.

Demuxed above .ts file with tsMuxeR and got next to 2 audio files a .264 file, size = 5.03 GB. So far the world is fine

Next step was to mux above .264 and the 2 audio files to a Matroschka container using mkvmerge which took 329 seconds and resulted in a file size of 3.09 GB [3243282 KB]. Using mkvmerge on MacOS showed exactly the same size in GB.

Also, I transferred the .ts file directly to .mkv using GDS Mux, which took 369 seconds and resulted in a file size of 3.09 GB [3242967 KB].

Played all files on a 27'' screen and couldn't detect a difference. Using mediainfo on all files, the striking difference between the .ts and Matroschka files seems to be the bitrate, while both applications have no encoding properties and handling time was just 7 minutes <scratches his head>

Somehow don't trust the Matroschka files ( don't have a reasonable argument though), while would of course prefer the smallest size when it comes to storage for later BlueRay authoring, writing on discs and for sure file-sharing.

This is just one example, repeated the procedure several times with different .ts files and always the same general result

More detailed data from mediainfo :

ts file
General
ID : 3F3
Complete name : V:\TV\Rote Rosen_01-05_08-56-01_Das Erste HD_fixed.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 5.47 GiB
Duration : 59mn 58s
Overall bit rate : 13.1 Mbps
Video
ID : 6010 (0x177A)
Menu ID : 11100 (0x2B5C)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Duration : 59mn 58s
Bit rate : 11.5 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.249
Stream size : 4.80 GiB (88%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

mkv file via mkvmerge
General
Complete name : V:\TV\Rote Rosen_01-05_08-56-01_Das Erste HD_fixed.track_6010.mkv
Format : Matroska
File size : 3.09 GiB
Duration : 59mn 58s
Overall bit rate : 7 383 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2010-01-05 10:35:01
Writing application : mkvmerge v2.9.8 ('C'est le bon') built on Aug 13 2009 12:49:06
Writing library : libebml v0.7.7 + libmatroska v0.8.1
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Muxing mode : Container profile=Unknown@4.0
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 59mn 58s
Bit rate : 6 532 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.142
Stream size : 2.74 GiB (88%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

mkv file via gds mux
General
Complete name : V:\TV\Rote Rosen_DS Mux.mkv
Format : Matroska
File size : 3.09 GiB
Duration : 59mn 58s
Overall bit rate : 7 382 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2010-01-05 10:42:40
Writing application : gdsmux
Writing library : Haali DirectShow Matroska Muxer 1.9.42.1
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Muxing mode : Container profile=Unknown@4.0
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 59mn 58s
Bit rate : 6 531 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.142
Stream size : 2.74 GiB (88%)
Title : PID 6010
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Unfortunately mediainfo doesn't give me a bitrate for the .264 file as such

Are there some people out there who can show me the light, please?
Many thanks for your thoughts & help.
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  #2  
Old 2010-01-06, 06:33 AM
peaktime peaktime is offline
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Re: High definition .ts and .mkv files

that's quite a reduction in data. maybe (some) .ts files use a lot more header data than .mkv files? Maybe both audio streams didn't successfully mux in mkvmerge?

you could try going back the other way and demuxing the 3.09 GB .mkv, then muxing again to .ts and see what the file size is.
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  #3  
Old 2010-01-06, 12:07 PM
Mandrax Mandrax is offline
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Re: High definition .ts and .mkv files

The audio files are decently integrated, just omitted that part in log due to long text size.
The re-muxing experiment [mkv-->ts] gave twice, either doing it directly or via de-muxing first, .ts files which were only slightly larger than the .mkv files.
Having downloaded a .ts file some weeks ago about the size of 9GB I'm asking myself how much of that was really needed.
Being well aware that .ts files can bear quite some amount of useless data, size of it seems to be a function of recording software, this doesn't explain the drastic size reduction via the demux-mux route, or in other words how can a muxing process deliver a file size smaller than the sum of individual sizes.

So far I believed - and still hang on to it - that elementary streams are without extra overhead, but maybe that's the wrong part of thinking?

Additionally, have scanned quite some forums and the issue as such seems to be quite common, only answers found so far were all along the lines that .ts can have quite some overhead.

Having seen HD torrents here which were either .ts or .mkv so I still hope that some experts might provide deeper insight.
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