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  #1  
Old 2008-09-02, 01:23 AM
greatoak greatoak is offline
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What about High Definition streams?

Please feel free to redirect me to any existing discussion thout I have not found anyone yet.

Looking at the video rules http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...faq_videorules, it looks like there is no way to upload HD video files.

How can one upload these files?

Is transport stream allowed?

TIA.

Oak.
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  #2  
Old 2008-09-02, 03:07 AM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

We have a discussion about it, and as yet there is no final word in what form it should be torrented. Blu-ray is obvious but some mods have doubts concerning .ts or rough .m2ts container. Also should we set a rule allowing transcoded videos to standard definition (DVD)?

Suggestions and opinions are welcome.
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  #3  
Old 2008-09-03, 01:15 PM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Here you may find proposed rules for high definition format. Please post comments in this thread. Thanks
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  #4  
Old 2008-09-17, 06:59 AM
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sullen sullen is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

You are cutting out a source of audiece generated material by not allowing .MP4 containers which are High Definition and utilize the h.264 codec. I am specifically referring to the Sanyo HD1000 camera and others that use the .MP4 container for video all the way up through 1080p resolution. 99% of those who work with HD know what they are doing and are not trying to pollute the trading pool with re-encodes of other source material. Please reconsider your stance on the container issue because it is eliminating valid HD material sources. From the guidelines it appears you are limiting sources to only MPEG/h.264 based formats that can be burned to BR without reencoding. Not everyone will be using those formats to view HD content.
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  #5  
Old 2008-09-17, 07:54 AM
my7of9 my7of9 is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
You are cutting out a source of audiece generated material by not allowing .MP4 containers which are High Definition and utilize the h.264 codec. I am specifically referring to the Sanyo HD1000 camera and others that use the .MP4 container for video all the way up through 1080p resolution. 99% of those who work with HD know what they are doing and are not trying to pollute the trading pool with re-encodes of other source material. Please reconsider your stance on the container issue because it is eliminating valid HD material sources. From the guidelines it appears you are limiting sources to only MPEG/h.264 based formats that can be burned to BR without reencoding. Not everyone will be using those formats to view HD content.
I concur !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #6  
Old 2008-09-17, 07:57 AM
my7of9 my7of9 is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

I for one would be streaming content.
I do not have a Blu-ray burner and if someone gave me one I could not afford the discs. I think this might be the same for a lot of people.
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  #7  
Old 2008-09-17, 08:03 AM
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schmoe75 schmoe75 is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen
I am specifically referring to the Sanyo HD1000 camera
This will NEVER be allowed here. Next thing you know, cell phones will be shooting in 1080i.
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  #8  
Old 2008-09-17, 11:52 AM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75 View Post
This will NEVER be allowed here. Next thing you know, cell phones will be shooting in 1080i.

I am glad you are open to the varying uses of the word "camera", let me be more specific "video camera". Did you bother to look up the Sanyo HD1000? I didn't think so...

Quote:

Sanyo HD1000
http://www.sanyodigital.com/specifications.aspx?v=17

Features:
Full 1080i HD Video Recording
10x Optical (f/1.8) HD Zoom Lens
4 Megapixel Still Photos
Records Directly to SDHC Memory Cards

VPC-HD1000

Full 1080i HD Sensor
Incorporating the latest high-definition CMOS sensor, the SANYO Xacti HD1000 camcorder captures full 1920x1080 (1080i) high-definition video at 60 frames-per-second. Designed to record the rich and vibrant colors of real life, the HD1000 also captures the subtle tones to provide the natural-looking result. The HD1000's CMOS sensor provides the responsiveness needed to capture fast moving subjects and SANYOs noise reduction technology helps obtain the cleanest signal from each pixel. The HD1000 records to the latest in MPEG-4 standard MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, delivering exceptional video clarity and detail while maintaining the smallest file size possible.

10x Optical HD Lens
At the front of the HD1000 is a commanding 10x all-glass HD lens. The HD1000's fast f/1.8 lens is capable of allowing almost four times more light through than conventional models to assist in lower light venues. Consisting of eight groups and eleven total lenses with a built-in neutral density filter, the HD1000's lens provides a fantastic field-of-view with a 38-380 mm range (35 mm equivalent). Combined with the 10x digital zoom, the HD1000 provides up to 100x total zooming capability.

Resolutions -

Full-HD 1920 x 1080 (60 fields/s 12Mbps) [HD-HR] 1280 x 720 (60fps, 12Mbps), [HD-SHQ] 1280 x 720 (30fps, 9Mbps), [TV-HR] 640 x 480 (60fps, 6Mbps ), [TV-SHQ] 640 x 480 (30fps, 3Mbps), [Web-SHQ] 320 x 240 (30fps)

So, tell me how a cap of say Glastonbury from BBC which is in H.264 is different from what I am proposing above with my camera? The difference is the container, H.264 can use a .TS or .MP4 container but it's the same codec. Granted, I don't know how to make a BR with my material, but just because I can't show someone how doesn't mean they should be devoid of the material I could offer. I see this as more of an issue of being poorly informed, closed minded, and dare I say laziness than about the integrity of the material here on the site. It's easier to not include the .MP4 container all together to weed out possible "cell phone" videos than to trust the members of the site or do a little bit of policing on material. If making it easier is the plan, force HD uploads to have full size screen shots or 10 second samples so that people who are interested in downloading can check it for themselves, then report if there is an issue. I realize HD torrents will be large, no one wants to waste time or bandwidth on something that is not what it claims to be, but to cut off a source of other material...well....

Quote:
High Definition Transport Stream (.ts) is preferred format for straight digital captures of HD TV broadcasts.
TS is a container, not a format. DVD is a format.

Quote:
Not permitted is rough not authored .m2ts file due it larger size than the transport stream (.ts) format.
Again, misinformation. An .m2ts is the same size as a .TS file, different container. You can directly take an .m2ts, correct it's characteristics to conform to the TS container, but the size difference is not significant. If it were significant going from one container to another, that would be a reencode which you have said you do not allow.

Yes, I did read the rules. For HD at this time you are only allowing -
1) HDTV captures of concerts such as Glastonbury, Rothbury 2008, etc to be seeded as they are without the need for structuring to BR
2) Audience HD captures, but only if presented in the BR recordable structure similar to DVD

I also will point out that part of my frustration with this tracker is the lack of communication. There was a Buffalo Tom DVD banned from here based on the fact that the source material was HD in a .MP4 container with the codec being H.264. I created this DVD and was quite proud of it, I was also miffed it was banned. I wrote to admins, mods, etc. several times about this trying to clarify that it was original HD material reencoded to DVD format. Very similar to a MPEG .TS file being encoded to DVD MPEG standard which, from what I can understand, is allowed here. I never received resolution on this despite several PMs and promises it would be discussed and resolved. I would very much like to seed more material here at TTD, I admit I don't seed much audio here any more, but would like a more appreciated atmosphere for HD material. I have not attempted to upload my audience HD shows anywhere, but feel this tracker would be best suited for it instead of Dime or others, but with the guidelines, I can not.
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  #9  
Old 2008-09-17, 12:44 PM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
So, tell me how a cap of say Glastonbury from BBC which is in H.264 is different from what I am proposing above with my camera? The difference is the container, H.264 can use a .TS or .MP4 container but it's the same codec.
It's similar to MPEG case: DVD (VOB) format is permitted only.

TS is allowed temporary for TV captures only, until we have quality software to author a Blu-ray disc.

HD audience material has to be tested and uploaded in BD format only.

BTW:
1. Comparison of your 4 MB px camera with the equipment used by TV is a good joke
2. Most HD cameras use .m2t container (= .m2ts).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
Again, misinformation. An .m2ts is the same size as a .TS file, different container.
How it can be the same size using larger byte packets size? 192 vs 188 for .ts. Difference is not big but a few hundred MBs can be saved for an average concert. Also, we like to avoid transcoding .ts > m2ts as current tools are far from being perfect, and errors are possible.
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  #10  
Old 2008-09-17, 01:05 PM
sullen's Avatar
sullen sullen is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post

BTW:
1. Comparison of your 4 MB px camera with the equipment used by TV is a good joke
2. Most HD cameras use .m2t container (= .m2ts).
1. Apples and Oranges my friend. I was comparing containers and codecs, not bitrates, you seem to have missed that part.
2. Most, but not all.

Sorry about the TS / .m2t misinformation, I wasn't well versed in that department but knew the size change was minimal compared to the overall size of the original file.
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  #11  
Old 2008-09-17, 01:52 PM
sullen's Avatar
sullen sullen is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Also, are all .m2ts files "HD lite" or do some cameras record full 1920x1080 resolution? I am only remotely familiar with some of the Sony cameras using tape that record to .m2ts, but the full resolution for the Sony cameras is an anamorphic 1440x1080 instead of the full 1920x1080.
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  #12  
Old 2008-09-17, 03:16 PM
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AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
Also, are all .m2ts files "HD lite" or do some cameras record full 1920x1080 resolution? I am only remotely familiar with some of the Sony cameras using tape that record to .m2ts, but the full resolution for the Sony cameras is an anamorphic 1440x1080 instead of the full 1920x1080.
my understanding is .m2ts is sony's proprietary container that uses MPEG2 compression...similar to JVC's .tod format [also MPEG2 compression]

as for sony recording in 1920x1080, i don't believe any of their consumer-level cams do -- just 1440x1080 as you mentioned
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  #13  
Old 2008-09-17, 03:33 PM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

^ all true except that Sony uses H.264 codec (AVCHD), also Panasonic and Canon. Not sure about JVC new models but the first series uses MPEG2 TS.
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  #14  
Old 2008-09-17, 03:44 PM
bjrocks bjrocks is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

m2ts actually stands for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. (Very similar to .ts from OTA/Settop box captures). m2ts and mp4 are containers, and do not dictate a video compression format. Not all m2ts files are the same. i.e. not all m2ts contain video with the same CODEC.

Sony's (and most other's) TAPE based HD cams use "HDV" which is an MPEG-2 type CODEC (at 25MBPS) which is limited to 1440x1080. JVC's HD based cams use their own flavor of an MPEG-2 type codec (up to 30MBPS) Sony, Canon, and Panasonic's HDD and Flash based cameras use slightly different variants of the AVCHD codec in an MPEG-2 Container (m2ts). Some of these record 1920x1080 and some record 1440x1080. Sanyo uses their own MPEG-4 Based codec (similar to, but distictly different from AVCHD) in an MP4 container.

Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.
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  #15  
Old 2008-09-17, 03:46 PM
bjrocks bjrocks is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
my understanding is .m2ts is sony's proprietary container that uses MPEG2 compression...similar to JVC's .tod format [also MPEG2 compression]
JVC's container is proprietary, Sony's is not.
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