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  #31  
Old 2008-09-18, 07:15 AM
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sullen sullen is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolf-pgh View Post
hmmm .. I was thinking more..

YouTube Video


(sorry its not HD )

Nice!
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  #32  
Old 2008-09-18, 12:55 PM
KustMichaels KustMichaels is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
and 1 Tool show that I have not seen in HD but saw the DVD it was made from.
Cool, guess who that one was?

I mean it's a shame, HD is truely worth the hassle. Sure broadcast HD is in another dimension, but amateur HD can do it, too. Tool 08/12/2007 in HD is cool, RATM @ Rock im Park 08 in HD is bloody awesome synched with DaGobert's audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post
amfglobal, there are free PC tools which may just add a few bytes to m2ts and create BD structure, including chapters and subtitles: tsMuxer, TSRemux, BD Edit. Check also eac3to which is great for demuxing a HD source.

Sorry, I'm not aware of similar Mac freebies.

Interesting discussion and guides you may find at doom and videohelp forum.
I've got 7-8 audience shot videos on my hard disc and no way to distribute them in HD. The only encoding app on the Mac that converts the .m2t to x264 and such is VisualHub. I own an older version and the x264 quality is not that great. The results look not much better then the SD DVD scaled up.

Right now the standard Mac app for encoding is MainConcepts encoder, I do not own that one and it only takes QuickTime files, so I had to convert the .m2t streams up to HD MotionJPEG@75% - that should be 80 GB, maybe 120 GB per show.
On the other hand Apple's Compressor produces HD Mpeg2, but no authoring. Newer versions of Comprossor get you HD H264, but I heard the quality sucks.

I once took the HD footage of Tool's "Forty Six & Two" of 08/12/2007, converted it up to MotionJPEG and converted it to DivX 6, because they offered the encoder for free once. Result was OK, but I guess PlayStation3 and 360 owners don't like those.

In either case I still had to sync the result with some AAC or AC3 audio, and I see no tool on the Mac that would do that conveniently.

What really drives me nuts is that Apple offers free HD cutting but says nothing about distribution. You want your folks to watch the HD cut? Stream it back to your cam! Want others to watch the HD cut? *Pay* for Apple's "me" website service and upload an QuickTime encoded HD video there. I guess the max resolution there is 720p, and I am not even sure about that one. What they are really talking about is uploading stuff to YouTube and your iPhone.

Then there's Adobes Encore CS3, which I don't own either. I heard it sucks, but people say Encore CS4 for Mac is far better. Then you have Roxio's author&burn stuff, but I did not check on those.
But those would only get you a BR DVD which puts you in the licencing hassle. In the past people wrote e-mails to the BR Association stating their case: a) BRD producer owns the material b) low quantity BRD production c) free give away. BRA says no fees, but now try to make the case for stealth video recordings.

Last edited by KustMichaels; 2008-09-18 at 01:03 PM.
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  #33  
Old 2008-09-18, 01:07 PM
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saltman saltman is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KustMichaels View Post
But those would only get you a BR DVD which puts you in the licencing hassle. In the past people wrote e-mails to the BR Association stating their case: a) BRD producer owns the material b) low quantity BRD production c) free give away. BRA says no fees, but now try to make the case for stealth video recordings.
Please explain the licensing issues of Bluray and how that relates to stealth video recordings that are not for profit. or link me and I'll read it.
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  #34  
Old 2008-09-18, 05:55 PM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KustMichaels View Post
Right now the standard Mac app for encoding is MainConcepts encoder, I do not own that one and it only takes QuickTime files, so I had to convert the .m2t streams up to HD MotionJPEG@75% - that should be 80 GB, maybe 120 GB per show.
On the other hand Apple's Compressor produces HD Mpeg2, but no authoring. Newer versions of Comprossor get you HD H264, but I heard the quality sucks.
note: the only HD footage i work with is recorded to tape, so i've never worked with .m2ts/.mod/.tod/etc, but i thought for sure Sorenson Squeeze could handle what yer tryin to do

also, i think Handbrake accepts .m2ts files, but i'm not positive...i've heard that the newest version has an h.264 encoder that is damn good, especially considering its freeware

Compressor is lacking in just about everything except SD DVD encoding [and its quality is arguable at times]...either Apple is gonna have to make some major revisions, or that program will cease to be used by anyone in the profession
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  #35  
Old 2008-09-18, 06:16 PM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac
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  #36  
Old 2008-09-18, 07:17 PM
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post
I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac
i've heard the same...dunno when that release date is tho
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  #37  
Old 2008-09-19, 11:28 AM
KustMichaels KustMichaels is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltman View Post
Please explain the licensing issues of Bluray and how that relates to stealth video recordings that are not for profit. or link me and I'll read it.
That would take a while to explain, I will come back later.

Here is one FAQ, here is another. A quote that is often tossed around is this:

Quote:
All those authoring houses intending to purchase an “off-rack” tool and engage in simple authoring task only, may opt not to obtain a Commercial Audiovisual Content License.
Which would theoretically allow what we are up to. I do no BR authoring yet and I am no lawyer, all I know is from reading freelance producer webboards. The DVDA (DVD Association) *off the record* says that all puclic documents of the BRDA are not obligatory. Fact is that the BRDA only considers cases where the author owns the material, which is somewhat dubious about stealth recordings.

Another matter is throwing the BR logo on a package, like the guys over at bootlegcoverart.com would do, that can't be legal, I'd say watch out.

Another matter is HDCP and AACS. Afair most if not all HD TV streams have the HDCP flag enabled. I don't know if by burning a BRD the flag gets removed. Fact is that most stand alone player manufacturers respect the HDCP flag to get their products approved. Thankfully HDCP is coming slowly, afair it was 2015 where manufacturers are not longer allowed to produce players with analog = no copy protection signals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
note: the only HD footage i work with is recorded to tape, so i've never worked with .m2ts/.mod/.tod/etc, but i thought for sure Sorenson Squeeze could handle what yer tryin to do
Nah, I don't know, I heard only bad things about Squeeze, encoding is average, it costs money and it does not take HV20 streams directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAR.oner View Post
also, i think Handbrake accepts .m2ts files, but i'm not positive...i've heard that the newest version has an h.264 encoder that is damn good, especially considering its freeware
I love Handbrake for DVD ripping, and I was happy to see HB recognizing the HV20 streams, but no encoding. Forum says it's not a considered feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post
I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac
Rumor said Apple would do that for the last revision but they didn't. I am somewhat dubious Apple wants BR authoring in the hands of their customers, even if the market is there. They are on the BR board, but they did not much to draw attention. Maybe they are still trying to figure the legal situation as we do. Rumor has it Apple is coming in early 2009 with BR burners, but then they need new software, too. It's crazy seeing Apple partnering with RED and talking about HD since 2005, but no real solution for low end users by 2008?

Rumor also says that Apple might even leave the Mac video market to Adobe, but I doubt that. However, Adobe is there with CS3 and CS4 now, but they are not obliged to give customers legal advice.Workflow is FCP -> Compressor -> Encore CS4 -> Toast9+Plugin. I wonder what fidelity can be reached by that for menus for example. People say you can only use Roxio's design templates, and those suck.
I do not own the latter two apps and don't plan to.

Let's also not forget that all the Java code on BR discs right now is alpha-ish beta 0.3 software. I wonder what progress on that front means for us.

I'd love to look at FFmpegX/mencoder which I guess is the highest quality x264 encoding on the Mac right now - and it's free. But that's rocket science I don't have the time for.

Last edited by KustMichaels; 2008-09-19 at 11:36 AM.
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  #38  
Old 2008-09-19, 11:32 AM
greatoak greatoak is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

I would like to add a comment.

I am not sure that targetting a medium (BR in that case) is a good idea.

Currently we are getting shows on DVD. Whatever the source is, the person who wants to share it has to make a DVD. First, it is either PAL or NTSC. Secondly, they generally limit the size to 4Gb to use only one single layer writable DVD : we are getting downgraded shows.

Even though we do not have such limits currently with BR it will happen someday.

I think that we mostly agree that FLAC is good format for audio.
We would need such a format for video streams so that we could get rid of both DVDs and BRs.

The DVD player I am currenly using owns a USB port. I can currently plug a 8Gb usb key and watch a video stream or a DVD structure (not good though).
Internet Boxes are able to play video streams right on the TV or check the AppleTV!

Therefore, we should not care about media, but the file format.
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  #39  
Old 2008-09-19, 11:48 AM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Greatoak, BR uses m2ts container. A playable disc needs correct folder structure + leading / control sequences which can be added even by some freewares, at least there are PC tools. It gets complicated as far as more advanced authoring is concerned - interactive menus. BR will use special Java engine of which, if I'm right, specification is not free / public. As Kust wrote above, industry wants to control everything, and it's not happy to pass know how to the consumer level as it's with DVD format.
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  #40  
Old 2008-09-19, 02:52 PM
greatoak greatoak is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Pawel... I far as I understand, you are going in the same direction as I am... BR is not a good choice.
Is my understanding correct?
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  #41  
Old 2008-09-19, 04:41 PM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

^ Yes, but it doesn't mean that I like to have any type of container to be the carrier. MP4 and MKV are good, and compact but they may contain anything, and this may cause problems for the site like TTD.
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  #42  
Old 2008-09-19, 10:23 PM
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direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

help me understand why MP4 and MKV (and perhaps other containers) might cause issues.
If a factual HD FPS/bitrate is given in the info.. I mean.. who, what, why would someone think they could pass it off as HD video when its .. say divx..

I mean, it seems it would 'be an instant bust' saying something is one thing - when its low quality compressed video.
also, the trading community is very good at dealing with 'these people' when it happens why worry.

you have to have failth in the users who share out - and this early in the game.. its not going to be that many people anyway.
As time moves on, the HD video camera format will come together to a standardization.
Its just early in the game now.. so the question is more..what makes it easiest for the traders to trade what they have ?

am i reading correctly that mac users dont have BR author software yet ?! thats blows my mind.

Last edited by direwolf-pgh; 2008-09-19 at 10:30 PM.
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  #43  
Old 2008-09-19, 10:53 PM
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sullen sullen is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Chew on this....Right Click and Save As....

http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/DCFC...Dark-1080i.mp4

It's 288mb for 3min 17sec.
Suggested player is MPC as you can change the audio from the default synced external audio or the camera audio.
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  #44  
Old 2008-09-19, 11:53 PM
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direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

you should post a recommended player/codec link with this please ^^

MPC = (easily googled as) Media Player Classic and that just aint gonna do it for folks.

12258/kbps 1081i - looking good
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  #45  
Old 2008-09-20, 07:18 AM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolf-pgh View Post
help me understand why MP4 and MKV (and perhaps other containers) might cause issues.
* MP4 container: no support for AC3 and PCM at all; AAC, MP2 / MP3 are not compatible with BD thus require re-encoding. AAC is much better than AC3 imo, however, transcoding is lossy like the codec. Video muxed to mp4 very often has incorrect aspect ratio flag (Yamb, mp4UI), whatever setting is used. I have no clue about Mac tools.

* Matroska: no issues, great container, except that there are no standalone players.
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