The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 2008-09-17, 04:56 PM
AAR.oner's Avatar
AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
TTD Staff
1.11 TB/1.41 TB/1.27
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Appalachia
Re: What about High Definition streams?

cheers for the detailed info! i knew i shoulda waited for some of the folks a little more up-to-speed on the current (dis)array of HD "formats" to reply
__________________
TTD's Gear Lust Forum -- info & reviews on taping gear
The Basics of EQing
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #17  
Old 2008-09-17, 06:41 PM
KustMichaels KustMichaels is offline
7.96 GB/193.28 MB/0.02
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Re: What about High Definition streams?

All true .. just to add that all cam manufacturers use their own .m2t standard. Canon uses a different one for their tape based HD cams, for example. I was happy to see that PS3's and 360's take .m2t's, but only after certain firmware version upgrades.

But even if I could author a .m2t myself, how am I supposed to get those 2x15 GB to people, if there are no BR burners and 360 owners are screwed anyway?

The whole issue why BR is not taking off is this:
For DVD production the licencing fees where paid by the press shops, they guys who multiply your master. Such an open culture is not planned for BR Discs. Read the FAQ on the website of the Blue Ray Disc Association and you will see how imprecise they are. Read the ISAN contract and you will see that NOTHING is for free on the BR front. As soon as you take something public - even a dozen BR discs given away for free - you have to licence. An un-licenced, hence uncontrolled production is not on their radar.

Toshiba staded a million times they wish such an open end culture, but they lost. Rumor says that US-american law firms are there right now collecting data about un-licenced BR bootlegs.

Besides of all this, with BR you have new issues. Put the official DVD logo on a DVD with no AC3 audio track you have a brand fraud. Put the BD logo on ANY un-licenced product and you are screwed.

That's why I am saying just forget the whole Blue Ray thing. HD streams in a 8 MB/s H264 scream and that's about it. Why bother with Blue Ray if you could use even a 8 GB USB stick for a video vine? Why is it that Apple, Microsoft and Sony just ignore Blue Ray and instead vote for streaming and direct download? Remember how the BR drive was once the number one selling point of the PS3? I'd say we are far from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrocks View Post
m2ts actually stands for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. (Very similar to .ts from OTA/Settop box captures). m2ts and mp4 are containers, and do not dictate a video compression format. Not all m2ts files are the same. i.e. not all m2ts contain video with the same CODEC.

Sony's (and most other's) TAPE based HD cams use "HDV" which is an MPEG-2 type CODEC (at 25MBPS) which is limited to 1440x1080. JVC's HD based cams use their own flavor of an MPEG-2 type codec (up to 30MBPS) Sony, Canon, and Panasonic's HDD and Flash based cameras use slightly different variants of the AVCHD codec in an MPEG-2 Container (m2ts). Some of these record 1920x1080 and some record 1440x1080. Sanyo uses their own MPEG-4 Based codec (similar to, but distictly different from AVCHD) in an MP4 container.

Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.

Last edited by KustMichaels; 2008-09-17 at 06:49 PM.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #18  
Old 2008-09-17, 06:47 PM
sullen's Avatar
sullen sullen is offline
39.56 GB/55.37 GB/1.40
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjrocks View Post
Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.
I understand it is very complicated, but if the staff are as educated as yourself, why should audience source material be limited to full BR disc format? Audience sourced HD material is scarce, I have seen 1 Metallica show from a European date in full HD and 1 Tool show that I have not seen in HD but saw the DVD it was made from. I will admit that one of the problems with the Sanyo format is that you can't mux PCM audio into the stream, it has to be AAC, MP3, or MP2. I have been using Yamb to do this as I haven't found another program that can do it. Also, 1080i to DVD is an issue with most encoding programs so I have been sticking with 720p. If folks have doubts about the quality, I can upload a sample of both 720p and 1080i.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #19  
Old 2008-09-17, 07:13 PM
AAR.oner's Avatar
AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
TTD Staff
1.11 TB/1.41 TB/1.27
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Appalachia
Re: What about High Definition streams?

sullen --

keep in mind that we are just now beginning to allow HD seeds here at TTD, and the requirements are still being discussed and ironed out amongst staff

HD broadcasts are a lot easier to draw-the-line as to what is and isn't allowed...consumer HD [audience cam footage] on the other hand has very little standards within the manufacturing industry, a lot of fluctuation between formats & codecs & bit rates, making the "line" a bit tougher to figure out

please bear with us as we iron everything out
__________________
TTD's Gear Lust Forum -- info & reviews on taping gear
The Basics of EQing
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #20  
Old 2008-09-17, 07:18 PM
pawel's Avatar
pawel pawel is offline
Lockout here
369.86 GB/672.37 GB/1.82
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Poland
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
I understand it is very complicated, but if the staff are as educated as yourself, why should audience source material be limited to full BR disc format?
If you are so smart then mux your fantastic material to BD and seed here, or go to other torrent sites where the staff is more educated and accepts whatever container and quality you like.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #21  
Old 2008-09-17, 07:33 PM
sullen's Avatar
sullen sullen is offline
39.56 GB/55.37 GB/1.40
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post
If you are so smart then mux your fantastic material to BD and seed here, or go to other torrent sites where the staff is more educated and accepts whatever container and quality you like.
Wow, we are getting a bit pissy aren't we... I never claimed to be "smart", I simply stood up for a different perspetive that appears to have been neglected. I pointed out issues with the wording of the guidelines, noting that some things were stated as "formats" when they were containers. That is not being "smart", that is being accurate, something I pride myself on and I would hope you would too instead of resorting to insults. Not to mention you (meaning the staff) asked for opinions. I thought the one person with all the information on HD formats was a staff since they have no ratio at all, or they were at least a VIP with some sort of pull in the system. I am not educated on the process to mux my video into a BR disc, I have no reason to because I don't own a BR burner. I have a HTPC so simply muxing in the audio to the original file works fine for me. I bet money if you put up a poll you would find substantially more people have HTPCs than BR burners. BR is a waste of time and coin for me, I can play all my HD content on my HTPC off of an external hard drive. If you want to run off members with insults and name calling, be my guest but I would ask that you at least appear to respect other people's opinions on the subject.

@AAR.oner
I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions. I appreciate this tracker and what it provides to the trading community, especially the strict policies that lend to integity of the source material.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #22  
Old 2008-09-17, 08:26 PM
direwolf-pgh's Avatar
direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
On the Beach
666.18 GB/1.29 TB/1.99
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: down in the basement
Re: What about High Definition streams?

you've made some really good points sullen. I appreciate reading about your experience taping and working with HD. thanks.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #23  
Old 2008-09-17, 08:41 PM
saltman's Avatar
saltman saltman is offline
opposite of moderate
TTD Staff
471.23 GB/591.81 GB/1.26
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Re: What about High Definition streams?

I also appreciate everyone's opinions as we work through these issues. Please believe that TTD strives for the best even in an ever-changing landscape.

Everyone's input will lead to a greater good. Keep the comments coming.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #24  
Old 2008-09-17, 11:19 PM
sullen's Avatar
sullen sullen is offline
39.56 GB/55.37 GB/1.40
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Re: What about High Definition streams?

I know what this thread needs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #25  
Old 2008-09-18, 12:18 AM
direwolf-pgh's Avatar
direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
On the Beach
666.18 GB/1.29 TB/1.99
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: down in the basement
Re: What about High Definition streams?

hmmm .. I was thinking more..

YouTube Video


(sorry its not HD )
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #26  
Old 2008-09-18, 12:25 AM
Silver Stallion DVDs's Avatar
Silver Stallion DVDs Silver Stallion DVDs is offline
Sleeping Colorless Green Ideas
TTD VIP
380.52 GB/18.27 TB/49.16
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: peering into the hidden lens...
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions.
I feel your frustration.

I tried having a discussion with one of the mods here about video and he simply wouldn't do it. After a couple of unanswered PMs, I gave up.

Fortunately, TTD isn't the only game in town.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #27  
Old 2008-09-18, 12:26 AM
amfglobal's Avatar
amfglobal amfglobal is offline
262.95 GB/314.15 GB/1.19
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Re: What about High Definition streams?

If my 2cents matters I have taped some audience concerts in HD and I agree what Sullen has to say. I personally don't have a Blue Ray player but since I can edit the original HD files (in my case .m2t from a Canon HD Cam) and save them as the exact HD file which mine happens to have resolution of 1440x1080 and boom no quality loss. They can be played directly on the computer or for me on my PS3. I think limiting HD material especially on a site like this to only BD guidelines is a little strict. Not everyone has a Blue Ray burner and until they come down in price I don't see myself getting one. I think under permitted file formats this site shouldn't be so strict. Lets face it majority of the uploads in HD on this site will be transfered from TV..with that in mind what about the actual video tapers that are taping with HD camcorders and have footage in other formats?

If my opinion matters this rule needs to change.Not permitted is rough not authored .m2ts file due it larger size than the transport stream (.ts) format.

On another note, I have some HD footage from a concert I taped but since I don't have a Blue Ray burner I can't burn the whole show for me to watch it on TV. So what I do is make DVD-Data discs of the .m2t files (which might contain a couple of them, not just one big one) and my PS3 plays them fine in HD. I know I'm not the only one doing this and then again I know not everyone has a PS3.
__________________
Global Voodoo
DVD List
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #28  
Old 2008-09-18, 03:49 AM
pawel's Avatar
pawel pawel is offline
Lockout here
369.86 GB/672.37 GB/1.82
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Poland
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolf-pgh View Post
(sorry its not HD )
it's mp4
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #29  
Old 2008-09-18, 03:59 AM
pawel's Avatar
pawel pawel is offline
Lockout here
369.86 GB/672.37 GB/1.82
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Poland
Re: What about High Definition streams?

amfglobal, there are free PC tools which may just add a few bytes to m2ts and create BD structure, including chapters and subtitles: tsMuxer, TSRemux, BD Edit. Check also eac3to which is great for demuxing a HD source.

Sorry, I'm not aware of similar Mac freebies.

Interesting discussion and guides you may find at doom and videohelp forum.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #30  
Old 2008-09-18, 05:17 AM
AAR.oner's Avatar
AAR.oner AAR.oner is offline
TTD Staff
1.11 TB/1.41 TB/1.27
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Appalachia
Re: What about High Definition streams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullen View Post
@AAR.oner
I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions. I appreciate this tracker and what it provides to the trading community, especially the strict policies that lend to integity of the source material.
i fully agree, and also fully agree that yer opinion should be voiced on this matter...HD seeds are a "new frontier" for us here, and with the complexity of the current technology, the more intelligent voices we have discussing the better




for everyone interested, i have posted a poll here in Technobabble re: how you would be watching an HD seed [i.e Blu-ray, Comp-to-TV stream, etc]...if you wouldn't mind taking a moment to vote, i think it might be helpful:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=64245
__________________
TTD's Gear Lust Forum -- info & reviews on taping gear
The Basics of EQing
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
High Definition poll - AAR.oner Technobabble 9 2008-10-25 01:27 AM
Motorola Dual-Tuner DVR High-Definition DCT6412 - Black Dog Technobabble 1 2005-10-18 10:09 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts