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  #1  
Old 2007-11-02, 09:27 AM
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Question Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

(dcbullet suggested I post this question here after one of my torrents was pulled recently)

I was wondering if I could get some clarification on the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule. Can one of the mods explain the reasoning behind that rule?

I'm a little confused because a CDR copy of an original CD is not allowed - but I see plenty of torrents here at TTD where multiple generations of cassette transfers ARE accepted. That makes no sense to me since a cassette tape copy (no matter how good it is) is still not going to have the dynamic range of a CD/CDR. Each time you make a cassette generational copy, you're losing some range data.

I would have thought the opposite rule to be in effect (no uploads with cassette lineage but Silver CD > CDR would be okay).

When I make a CDR rip from a silver disc, I use EAC. I have my read & write offsets configured perfectly so that my .LOG files generated by my rip have 100% error-free rips. I also include a .CUE file so that a truly perfect copy can be made by the next person who snatches these files. So if these are perfect extractions from silver CDs & perfect CDR writes (according to EAC logs, etc.) - how come those aren't allowed but cassette lineages are?

I'm not trying to start a flame war on this topic. Just asking for clarification on why this rule is in place. Thanks!

Last edited by superhokie; 2007-11-02 at 09:43 AM.
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  #2  
Old 2007-11-02, 11:29 AM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Five can probably answer this much better than I, but I'll give it a shot.


With Silver CDs, we know that they are out there en masse and that several people have a copy. So, we don't think it is a big deal to expect that one of those people will be able to EAC and flac the show to be shared.

With other shows that never get mass produced, you have a single person who has the master. They may only make one copy and send it out or they may make several copies. Hopefully someone early on in the chain finally EAC and flacs it to share. Sometimes it is from CDR(1), but sometimes it isn't until CDR(4) or more. Then that becomes the commonly circulated gen of the show. (This could be the same for tapes or CDR). We want the lowest gen possible to be shared, but sometimes the lowest gen is about 4 or 5 gens away from the master. Sure, we would love to have the master itself shared, but that just isn't always possible.

We have a taper here who doesn't torrent or flac stuff. Instead, he makes copies of his CD(M) and sends them to users and they EAC and then flac and torrent his stuff. So, CD(1) is the lowest we will get from him.
Quote:
When I make a CDR rip from a silver disc, I use EAC. I have my read & write offsets configured perfectly so that my .LOG files generated by my rip have 100% error-free rips. I also include a .CUE file so that a truly perfect copy can be made by the next person who snatches these files. So if these are perfect extractions from silver CDs & perfect CDR writes (according to EAC logs, etc.) - how come those aren't allowed but cassette lineages are?
If you rip a Silver CD and share it, they can share the flacs you generated. But, they can't share a Silver CD > CDR(1) of the show unless they can somehow prove that their copy is exactly the same as your original copy. Do they have shntool md5s of your rip to compare to their rip? I would guess not. When you have a Silver CD > CDR(1) situation, you don't know for sure that the copy was made perfectly.
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  #3  
Old 2007-11-02, 11:34 AM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Many times, the cassette lineages are all there is to be had. The only publically circulating (available) recording may be the one that is CASS>CASS>DAT.

If the recording has been distributed on silver CD, it's widely available everywhere, and, as such, the most desirable, widely circulated source. When that is the case, rips to FLAC shuld be made straight from the silver CD, with EAC, in secure mode, with the offset correctly set for the extration drive used. There is no need to have the extra extraction>CDR>extraction>encode in the lineage since so many copies of the silver are available to be extracted directly to WAV>FLAC.
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  #4  
Old 2007-11-02, 11:34 AM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

beaten again
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  #5  
Old 2007-11-02, 11:59 AM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

OK, thanks for the reponse(s). It's still a bit hazy to me, especially in my case where I know based on log files I'm making perfect rips from CDRs via EAC with .log and .cue (those CDRs which were also created from perfect copies I made with EAC from the borrowed silver CD originally, also with .log and .cue). In that scenario I am able to prove that the CDR copy is 100% accurate with no data loss compared to the original. Yet still I am not allowed to upload that recording.

I understand the logic of cassette-sourced boots in the event there are no superior sources that exist. However that point brings me to another question: suppose I have a CDR made from a silver CD and there is no other source for that particular performance that is on the tracker? Would it be allowed in that case?

It just seems odd to me that I could literally throw a Maxell tape in my stereo and record an FM broadcast of a concert (complete with hiss, static, and all the other lovely nonsense that goes along with cassette tape recordings)....then extract that cassette recording to WAV on my PC, encode to FLAC and upload it here -- and that would be acceptable. But a CDR copy where I have an error-free EAC log indicating a perfect replica of the source would not be acceptable.....
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  #6  
Old 2007-11-02, 12:14 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Usually when I get my hands on silver bootlegs, the first thing I will do is make a secure EAC rip (100% error-free log with .cue). Then I make a CDR copy for myself (using the .cue file as well) on Delkin Gold CDRs. Later on when I upload the show(s) to a tracker, I make another extraction via EAC from my gold CDR copy (again with 100% error-free log and .cue file). So now I have two sets of .logs, one from the original silver rip and another from the gold CDR.

I'm pretty anal retentive when it comes to ensuring my rips/copies are perfect. In a case where the .log and .cue sets can be included, would a torrent of this type be allowed?

Thanks again for the responses.
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  #7  
Old 2007-11-02, 01:27 PM
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paddington paddington is offline
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

best way to copy those silver boots, if you intened to re-share them is to rip them with EAC to FLAC, not make an audio CD copy. You'd make your audio CD copy from your FLAC archives. WHen you share, you'd share those FLAC archives. If you make others copies from your audio CDR, then they make audio CDR copies, etc, it hughly increases the risk of degredation.

You can spread them however you wish, we just don't allow it that way here. There are a lot of other places that do allow that, but TTD's original purpose was to only spread the absolute best. We don't always get that right, but we try.

In your case, since you hashes match exactly, you have a much better reproduction that most would have. That puts you in about the top 0.5% of people who would seed a CDR from a Silver. The rips usually aren't done correctly.

The bottom line is, we can't allow CDR rips from Silver CDs to be re-ripped and seeded here because that isn't the best possible (shortest, least involved, etc) lineage. In most cases, there will be a slight difference and since there are usually at least several hundred, if not thousand, copies of a silver boot pressed, there really is no need for the CDR re-burn as the source isn't rare.

The cassette torrents are allowed if they are the best source available of the audio. A CDR rip from a silver CD that has been ripped, re-burned, ripped again and encoded is not the best source available of that audio - the silver CD is.
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  #8  
Old 2007-11-02, 02:24 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

OK. I appreciate the clarification.
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  #9  
Old 2007-11-02, 04:52 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

If the read and write offsets are corrected then the CD-R(1) rip will probably match the silver rip. I had a generic drive that wouldn't burn the last few samples of the last track of a CD correctly, but every other track matched the original FLACs when extracted from a burned audio CD-R. If you have a good drive and burn and extract (secure) with EAC with the read and write offsets corrected, you could have a CD-R(50) and it would still match the original checksum. Most people burn with Nero I think, so they can't correct their write offset. Maybe in cases where you have corrected your write offset, and burn with EAC, they could make an exception. The only problem might be people lying about their write offset being corrected, or the inability to prove that they burned with the write offset corrected.
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  #10  
Old 2007-11-03, 03:55 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
If the read and write offsets are corrected then the CD-R(1) rip will probably match the silver rip. I had a generic drive that wouldn't burn the last few samples of the last track of a CD correctly, but every other track matched the original FLACs when extracted from a burned audio CD-R. If you have a good drive and burn and extract (secure) with EAC with the read and write offsets corrected, you could have a CD-R(50) and it would still match the original checksum. Most people burn with Nero I think, so they can't correct their write offset. Maybe in cases where you have corrected your write offset, and burn with EAC, they could make an exception. The only problem might be people lying about their write offset being corrected, or the inability to prove that they burned with the write offset corrected.
I agree with you. That's why I had asked if it would be acceptable if I could provide the EAC .log files with the torrents in question. I always ensure 100% error-free secure rips with EAC before uploading anything or making exact copies of discs. Those logs would serve as proof that the CDR extract was just as secure as the original silver extraction logs (by comparing the two sets to check for 100% error free extractions in both).
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  #11  
Old 2007-11-03, 07:13 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Just my opinion: if they are error free extractions, I wouldn't even bother to include the CD-R gen in the lineage, just write silver CD > EAC (secure, read offset correct) > WAV > FLAC and include the .log from the original rip. 99.99% of people don't burn with EAC with the write offset corrected, and probably only 50% extract with the read offset corrected, that is why they have this rule.

For example, let's say you burned a show that has been seeded here to audio CD-R with EAC with the write offset corrected. Some time goes by and you want to reseed the show (you have the original text file, art, and .ffp on your hard drive). You do the extraction and encode to FLAC. The FLAC fingerprint that came with the show matches your ripped audio CD > FLAC. All you have to do is copy and paste the original text file into the description, no need to indicate the CD-R gen. Note: if the FLAC tags were changed, or if you encoded with a different version of FLAC, the wholefile .md5 won't match. That's the only drawback. So if someone wanted to join you as a co-seeder to help you seed, and they burned their show to data DVD, their FLACs wouldn't match in the torrent.

Last edited by Tubular; 2007-11-03 at 07:19 PM.
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  #12  
Old 2007-11-09, 03:17 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

^as tubular said, if you're getting the exact same ffp/st5 checksums after re-extraction there is no cdr gen since the decompressed data is exact. you can store it in aif format on a jazz disc at the bottom of a bucket of water in your backyard if you like so long as your checksums still match when you retrieve it.

but you need to hang onto those checksums generated from the original files extracted from the silver. so long as those continue to match when you return the files to FLAC your storage system is secure.

however it is a tricky business getting the offsets absolutely perfect and more time-consuming to verify an audio cdr (test for corruption) as compared to FLAC.
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  #13  
Old 2007-11-10, 09:21 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

I do I test the flac file foot prints for errors from a silver cd> eac> flac transfer.

I have a few shows and there aren't any eac logs so I was wondering about finding out if theres a way to tell if they weren't copied before putting them into flac data

I listened to them and they sound great but is there a way to tell?


Thanks
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  #14  
Old 2007-11-13, 10:16 AM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

sorry no way to tell in that case. try contacting the original seeder if you can find him/her
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Old 2007-11-29, 09:15 PM
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Re: Question about the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by superhokie
(dcbullet suggested I post this question here after one of my torrents was pulled recently)

I was wondering if I could get some clarification on the "no silver CD >> CDR transfer" rule. Can one of the mods explain the reasoning behind that rule?

I'm a little confused because a CDR copy of an original CD is not allowed - but I see plenty of torrents here at TTD where multiple generations of cassette transfers ARE accepted. That makes no sense to me since a cassette tape copy (no matter how good it is) is still not going to have the dynamic range of a CD/CDR. Each time you make a cassette generational copy, you're losing some range data.

I would have thought the opposite rule to be in effect (no uploads with cassette lineage but Silver CD > CDR would be okay).

When I make a CDR rip from a silver disc, I use EAC. I have my read & write offsets configured perfectly so that my .LOG files generated by my rip have 100% error-free rips. I also include a .CUE file so that a truly perfect copy can be made by the next person who snatches these files. So if these are perfect extractions from silver CDs & perfect CDR writes (according to EAC logs, etc.) - how come those aren't allowed but cassette lineages are?

I'm not trying to start a flame war on this topic. Just asking for clarification on why this rule is in place. Thanks!

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