Is there an explicit ratio policy here?

[todger]

Excuse me if this has been answered already, but I've had a look around and can't see an obvious statement/announcement: is there a ratio policy in operation on The Traders' Den? *



* apostrophe after the "s" because there is more than one trader ;-)

no ratio enforcement here.

lots of ratio predjudice amongst members here though, despite that policy. so if you've got a poor ratio things like requests for reseeds (for example) may be ignored by others.

[dcbullet]

"You better keep a fucking good ratio!" explicit enough!?

[todger]

Originally Posted by dcbullet

"You better keep a fucking good ratio!" explicit enough!?

Looks like that correspondence course in repartee wasn't such a bad investment after all ;-)

[paddington]

Originally Posted by todger

is there a ratio policy in operation on The Traders' Den?

Give what you take.
If you can give more, great. Do that.

[europhan]

Originally Posted by toys

so if you've got a poor ratio things like requests for reseeds (for example) may be ignored by others.

If I see a request for a reseed of a show I have, the first thing I do before any other consideration about the request, is look at the person's share ratio. If I don't like what I see, it gets no further consideration.

Originally Posted by europhan

If I see a request for a reseed of a show I have, the first thing I do before any other consideration about the request, is look at the person's share ratio. If I don't like what I see, it gets no further consideration.

you should really click the persons username for a quick look at their profile to see if they have started any Vines or offered up any B&P's, both of which are listed on the users profile. lots of those people who have poor internet connections share back that way. or consider if they have a ton of posts in the Technobabble Forum where they're constantly helping out people new to bit torrent. or if they're a taper who has never torrented a show and has a zero ratio but has mailed out a huge pile of his own personal master recordings to others to torrent for him. or... well you get the idea i hope. there is a reason why we don't enforce ratios here. far far too many other ways to share.

[dcbullet]

Originally Posted by toys

or if they're a taper who has never torrented a show and has a zero ratio but has mailed out a huge pile of his own personal master recordings to others to torrent for him

[paddington]

who could he be talking about....

[U2Lynne]

Well, it sounds like this question has been pretty much answered. Basically, we just ask that you share in whatever way you can. Some people go Vine the shows they download or B&P them. Other people are very good at making cover for the shows. Others donate, others help out in Technobabble, others send out shows to other users to torrent, and then others just try their best to always be able to open a window on a show. This is a Trading site, not just a torrent site, so just go out and share.

[jellybeard999]

Please remember places like this only survive based on the community. I personally have let my ratio drop (lots of downloading recently, no time to upload) but I'm now going on a seeding campaign

[dcbullet]

Originally Posted by jellybeard999

but I'm now going on a seeding campaign

I think that was more of a skirmish.

[Dudogger]

Posted earlier today in response to yet another narrow-minded, ratio-fueled attack by someone whose sense of sharing and community has long-since escaped him. Hopefully, it will foster a little discussion regarding the rather distasteful class system that has resulted from the unnecessary use and public display of personal ratios by this site:

*******************************************************

I guess I've now read so many of the baseless, ratio-related, pseudo-flame jobs that it's time to relay on to anyone who reads this a few observations I've made and thoughts I’ve had, about TTD-style "sharing" - especially to those of you who appear to be quite mathematically and cognitively challenged, and to those who are doing their very best to contribute, and yet still have to wade regularly through this kind of self-righteous pablum, just to be able to enjoy the music.

1) The arbitrary 1.00 ratio guideline is just that - a ratio and a guideline, and quite arbitrary. Here, ratio means upload volume divided by download volume, without any regard to individual bandwidth, drive capacity, etc. It is only a target, not a requirement, and one that is not readily attainable to many users who, nonetheless, still contribute in a very positive way. Thus TTD's suggestion that those who can't achieve 1.00 should try to B&P, vine, and so on. I imagine that a large number of participants, like me, are doing just that, yet it doesn't serve to stifle these impotent flamers much, does it? One yahoo recently boasted to me that his ratio was better than mine back when he used a laptop with a 56K modem. To which I ask - So what is your point? I mean, really, at 56K it likely took him a month to download one show. Then with a (hypothetical) 3.75 u/l divided by a 4.20 d/l, I guess I'd have to agree that his 0.89 ratio was better than mine. What a profound revelation that guy had, eh? So, a high ratio is really fairly meaningless, unless it is supported by a healthy upload volume. Without any regard to download volume, your absolute uploads are the true measure of one's contribution to any trading community, and not some poorly conceived, often-abused, arbitrary ratio threshold.

2) Occasionally, one downloads a show that is not worth keeping, burning, or sharing (due to poor quality), and in the user's opinion, shouldn't further pollute the trading pool by way of continued uploading. If one were then to delete that show/torrent, one might only have obtained a show-specific .17 ratio, for example. This can't be recouped for that deleted show, and that .17 ratio becomes a detriment to the user's overall ratio (as tracked by TTD), when in fact, he/she is doing the community a small favor by not enabling the spread of a crappy show. Other times, after a torrent's seeds/leeches drop to 0, and remains there for a number of days, that torrent is likewise deleted, though its individual ratio may still be well less than 1.00, but it is still available to meet reseed and B&P requests. Unfortunately, the typical flamer would prefer to spin that as being the horrible leecher "taking as much as possible, while giving next to nothing", which to many of us is much like Dubya saying "we've got to attack them there so they won't attack us here". Sorry, but we just know better. And, once someone seeds or uploads a show, it's out there, and the seeder has gotten his/her jollies, quite justifiably, for having offered it up. Various people then tap into that torrent and share the obtained music in their preferred, individual ways - there are indeed many shades of gray in this world. So in this format, it's not about taking versus giving back (equally) so much as it is about using current technology to acquire audio and video from a wealth of different sources, then redistributing that music, in various different ways, to other people who maybe aren't so fortunate or capable. Expected giving is just not a very cool thing, no matter how you look at it. It's kind of like feeling obligated to tithe 10% of your meager income to the local church, merely because that's their expectation of you and everybody does it, rather than because it’s something you freely elect to do or even can physically manage to do.

3) Some folks have great upload/download bandwidth. Good for them. Some do not, so they acquire what they can, when they can. Some, like me, have a pretty good download speed, but a very restrictive upload cap (mine is limited to about 28K, less than 10% of my maximum download speed). So any time my BT client is running, I am uploading at my maximum capacity, regardless of the number of torrents I have uploading at any given time. If I were to stop all of my downloading in order to capitulate to one selfish moron’s attempted browbeating of me to raise my ratio by uploading only, then guess what? I’m still only uploading at 28K, so that my rate (speed) of contribution to other downloaders remains exactly the same. And, I've been running nearly 24/7 since January 07. (Sorry, flamers, I just can't afford T1 right now in order to keep you happy.) Stopping the downloading, therefore, serves no rational, contributory purpose at all – it just curtails the acquisition and redistribution of new music, but in no way speeds the overall upload process. "Looking back to help others" (with reseed requests), while sounding noble, also corrects nothing ratio-wise because the upload rate remains the same no matter what combination of torrents I might choose to upload to (today I have 11 active ones). Just to illustrate how arbitrary and abused the ratio issue is, and how truly dense and cyber-power-hungry some of these non-mod gooberbrains can be: One challenged user recently had the gall to dictate to me that I should stop downloading until my ratio rises to at least 50%. To which I must ask – Based on what published mandate? And – Who died and left you dog-catcher, eh? Or - Is this some new standard you’ve just now conceived of and applied all by your smug little self? Impressive. So glad to hear it. Thanks again for the suggestion. Not.

4) If one were to halt downloads in order to increase ratio, that would mean one has temporarily stopped accumulating new material. Torrents die, such that by doing so you’d also increase the chances of missing out on one or more good shows as a result, such that you’d perhaps occasionally request a reseed, such that some other mindless flamer might well then decide to again stretch his puny ego by snooping into your stats and harping on you and your ratio. What fun!! So, I say to anyone reading this: People upload because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it. Other people download because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it. Still other people B&P like crazy, or simply burn and give away discs to special, grateful people who love the music, but don’t have the time, interest, and/or capability to download and burn it themselves - because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it! TTD is but one small facet on the face of a much larger trading/giving community concept that kind of mirrors the old Rastafarian philosophy of “from those that have, to those that have not”. That is, you should endeavor to share what you take, where you can, when you can, and with whomever you can, without any regard to some other person’s rate of sharing or giving, or their misguided expectations of you. This is the true spirit of “sharing the music”, and TTD would be a much better, kinder place without the few demented flamers who seem to believe otherwise, and routinely spoil it for everyone else, just for their squeaky little voices to be heard. I think that tossing out the ratio concept altogether would be highly constructive in removing an unfortunate opportunity for some sad souls to unfairly judge so many others who are just trying their best, and allow people of all shades to merge into the mosaic, in whatever fashion their individual preferences will support, effectively eliminating all this phony and unnecessary hierarchy garbage. That's what freedom is.

Happy Trading and Happy Sharing


P.S. - If you're a reader who keeps getting flamed by puffed-up jokers who have nothing better to do, no matter your effort to upload within the constraints of your particular system and/or budget, please jump in and say what you think. It's important for you to be heard rather than allowing that ratio flamer shit to, in any way, intimidate you into apologizing for your numbers. These people should be wholly ashamed, just like those now running our country (into the ground). Every kilobyte uploaded is a positive contribution from you to this system and community, regardless of what you receive from it, and as a recipient of some really good stuff, I, my friends, my family, and many receiving acquaintances are extremely thankful!

[U2Lynne]

Dudogger, why is it that you think we should not show share ratios here? Do you download from the other big torrent sites like DIME or Tapecity or Lossless Legs or ....., cuz all the major torrent sites that I know of will show your ratio. Actually, they do even more, they ban for ratios less than .25 (some for even less than .5). It really is not unusual to show ratios at these sites. If the showing of ratio issue bothers you, I do know that etree does not show them, so that may be a torrent site that you will want to check out.

If you go to a user's profile page, if a person has offered B&Ps or Vines, we list those, along with shows they have offered through torrents. Keeping a good ratio, B&Ping, Vining, offering up new shows here, those are all are different ways for a person to share what they have and help out the community.

You may want to consider that maybe you are downloading more than you really need to. I have an upload cap that is a bit less than twice what yours is. In fact, if a poll were to be taken, I would say the majority of users will fall between 28-52 for their upload rates. It's a pretty standard upload rate. I've suggested to other people that if their ratio is getting low, then they may want to find an download buddy. Find someone with similar tastes in music and each download only half the shows you normally do and then copy and send along the shows to each other every month (or two, whatever you agree on). That will halve the amount you download, but at the same time keep your upload the same and you will end up doubling your upload 'rate' per month.

Just another note.... if you look in Technobabble, you will see some posts about users who have gotten notices from their ISPs for downloading 'too much' (and that amount never seems to be clear). If you have downloaded 500 GB since January, then you may want to slow down a bit and also look up your terms of service. As I said, the ISPs don't seem to want to define what 'too much' is, but if I recall, it seems to be somewhere in the 60-80GB a month range which is less than what your rate is.

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Posted earlier today in response to yet another narrow-minded, ratio-fueled attack by someone whose sense of sharing and community has long-since escaped him. Hopefully, it will foster a little discussion regarding the rather distasteful class system that has resulted from the unnecessary use and public display of personal ratios by this site:

*******************************************************

I guess I've now read so many of the baseless, ratio-related, pseudo-flame jobs that it's time to relay on to anyone who reads this a few observations I've made and thoughts I’ve had, about TTD-style "sharing" - especially to those of you who appear to be quite mathematically and cognitively challenged, and to those who are doing their very best to contribute, and yet still have to wade regularly through this kind of self-righteous pablum, just to be able to enjoy the music.

1) The arbitrary 1.00 ratio guideline is just that - a ratio and a guideline, and quite arbitrary. Here, ratio means upload volume divided by download volume, without any regard to individual bandwidth, drive capacity, etc. It is only a target, not a requirement, and one that is not readily attainable to many users who, nonetheless, still contribute in a very positive way. Thus TTD's suggestion that those who can't achieve 1.00 should try to B&P, vine, and so on. I imagine that a large number of participants, like me, are doing just that, yet it doesn't serve to stifle these impotent flamers much, does it? One yahoo recently boasted to me that his ratio was better than mine back when he used a laptop with a 56K modem. To which I ask - So what is your point? I mean, really, at 56K it likely took him a month to download one show. Then with a (hypothetical) 3.75 u/l divided by a 4.20 d/l, I guess I'd have to agree that his 0.89 ratio was better than mine. What a profound revelation that guy had, eh? So, a high ratio is really fairly meaningless, unless it is supported by a healthy upload volume. Without any regard to download volume, your absolute uploads are the true measure of one's contribution to any trading community, and not some poorly conceived, often-abused, arbitrary ratio threshold.

2) Occasionally, one downloads a show that is not worth keeping, burning, or sharing (due to poor quality), and in the user's opinion, shouldn't further pollute the trading pool by way of continued uploading. If one were then to delete that show/torrent, one might only have obtained a show-specific .17 ratio, for example. This can't be recouped for that deleted show, and that .17 ratio becomes a detriment to the user's overall ratio (as tracked by TTD), when in fact, he/she is doing the community a small favor by not enabling the spread of a crappy show. Other times, after a torrent's seeds/leeches drop to 0, and remains there for a number of days, that torrent is likewise deleted, though its individual ratio may still be well less than 1.00, but it is still available to meet reseed and B&P requests. Unfortunately, the typical flamer would prefer to spin that as being the horrible leecher "taking as much as possible, while giving next to nothing", which to many of us is much like Dubya saying "we've got to attack them there so they won't attack us here". Sorry, but we just know better. And, once someone seeds or uploads a show, it's out there, and the seeder has gotten his/her jollies, quite justifiably, for having offered it up. Various people then tap into that torrent and share the obtained music in their preferred, individual ways - there are indeed many shades of gray in this world. So in this format, it's not about taking versus giving back (equally) so much as it is about using current technology to acquire audio and video from a wealth of different sources, then redistributing that music, in various different ways, to other people who maybe aren't so fortunate or capable. Expected giving is just not a very cool thing, no matter how you look at it. It's kind of like feeling obligated to tithe 10% of your meager income to the local church, merely because that's their expectation of you and everybody does it, rather than because it’s something you freely elect to do or even can physically manage to do.

3) Some folks have great upload/download bandwidth. Good for them. Some do not, so they acquire what they can, when they can. Some, like me, have a pretty good download speed, but a very restrictive upload cap (mine is limited to about 28K, less than 10% of my maximum download speed). So any time my BT client is running, I am uploading at my maximum capacity, regardless of the number of torrents I have uploading at any given time. If I were to stop all of my downloading in order to capitulate to one selfish moron’s attempted browbeating of me to raise my ratio by uploading only, then guess what? I’m still only uploading at 28K, so that my rate (speed) of contribution to other downloaders remains exactly the same. And, I've been running nearly 24/7 since January 07. (Sorry, flamers, I just can't afford T1 right now in order to keep you happy.) Stopping the downloading, therefore, serves no rational, contributory purpose at all – it just curtails the acquisition and redistribution of new music, but in no way speeds the overall upload process. "Looking back to help others" (with reseed requests), while sounding noble, also corrects nothing ratio-wise because the upload rate remains the same no matter what combination of torrents I might choose to upload to (today I have 11 active ones). Just to illustrate how arbitrary and abused the ratio issue is, and how truly dense and cyber-power-hungry some of these non-mod gooberbrains can be: One challenged user recently had the gall to dictate to me that I should stop downloading until my ratio rises to at least 50%. To which I must ask – Based on what published mandate? And – Who died and left you dog-catcher, eh? Or - Is this some new standard you’ve just now conceived of and applied all by your smug little self? Impressive. So glad to hear it. Thanks again for the suggestion. Not.

4) If one were to halt downloads in order to increase ratio, that would mean one has temporarily stopped accumulating new material. Torrents die, such that by doing so you’d also increase the chances of missing out on one or more good shows as a result, such that you’d perhaps occasionally request a reseed, such that some other mindless flamer might well then decide to again stretch his puny ego by snooping into your stats and harping on you and your ratio. What fun!! So, I say to anyone reading this: People upload because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it. Other people download because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it. Still other people B&P like crazy, or simply burn and give away discs to special, grateful people who love the music, but don’t have the time, interest, and/or capability to download and burn it themselves - because it’s their hobby and they enjoy it! TTD is but one small facet on the face of a much larger trading/giving community concept that kind of mirrors the old Rastafarian philosophy of “from those that have, to those that have not”. That is, you should endeavor to share what you take, where you can, when you can, and with whomever you can, without any regard to some other person’s rate of sharing or giving, or their misguided expectations of you. This is the true spirit of “sharing the music”, and TTD would be a much better, kinder place without the few demented flamers who seem to believe otherwise, and routinely spoil it for everyone else, just for their squeaky little voices to be heard. I think that tossing out the ratio concept altogether would be highly constructive in removing an unfortunate opportunity for some sad souls to unfairly judge so many others who are just trying their best, and allow people of all shades to merge into the mosaic, in whatever fashion their individual preferences will support, effectively eliminating all this phony and unnecessary hierarchy garbage. That's what freedom is.

Happy Trading and Happy Sharing


P.S. - If you're a reader who keeps getting flamed by puffed-up jokers who have nothing better to do, no matter your effort to upload within the constraints of your particular system and/or budget, please jump in and say what you think. It's important for you to be heard rather than allowing that ratio flamer shit to, in any way, intimidate you into apologizing for your numbers. These people should be wholly ashamed, just like those now running our country (into the ground). Every kilobyte uploaded is a positive contribution from you to this system and community, regardless of what you receive from it, and as a recipient of some really good stuff, I, my friends, my family, and many receiving acquaintances are extremely thankful!

nice ratio

[saltman]

I'll preface my statements with I really don't get bent out of shape about ratios.

You clearly don't understand what a community is about (and rasta for that matter.) Do you think people would single you out if you had contributed anything to this site? I don't think so. You have no uploads, no vines started, no b+ps, etc. You are a leech plain and simple (and self-confessed at that.)

There are many leeches here. Your mouth is just a lot bigger than the others. Since you obviously get bent out of shape about who you are, I would recommend contributing in someway other than your rhetoric. Believe me we've heard it before.

Or just sit back and take what you deserve. That's ok too.

[Chachi420]

cast your votes!

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=37675

[ssquirrel]

Oh please, Dudogger. You seem to think it's ok to not upload because it's not convenient for you. Do you think everyone who uploads does it because it's really easy for them? Some of us do it because we feel we have an obligation to share back. If no one went out of their way to upload, you wouldn't have anything to leech off of.

The LEAST you could do thank the people who've uploaded the hundreds of gigs worth of shows that you've downloaded by posting "thanks" but you don't even do that!


As a Mod posted above, what are YOU contributing to this community? You talk a lot about sharing.. so Dudogger.. how you are giving back to the Trader's Den?

[Phishblowz]

the point that people don't get is that the more popular the site gets, the more trash we attract...like the dead in 89....they lost the privelidge to play some of the more sacred venues because of the lack of respect of the "party crowd" that really couldn't care less about the scene

we let this kind of trash ruin the GD scene and turn it into Deer Creek 95 when will it stop...at what point do we put the foot down and stop the disrespectful from destroying what a few good people worked so hard to create

this attitude is driving away the people this site was designed to attract in the first place...do we allow the good ones to slip away because of the rights of those who have no respect

I just think some kind of enforcement is appropriate...maybe just .25 or .50, but something on record to show that there is a limit to the abuse...we require a high standard for our uploads to ensure the best possible torrents, so why not expect the same quality from the members that we expect from the torrents...just my .02, for whatever it's worth

[retired]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

1) The arbitrary 1.00 ratio guideline is just that - and one that is not attainable to many users who nonetheless still contribute in a very positive way. Thus TTD's suggestion that those who can't achieve 1.00 should try to B&P, vine, and so on. I imagine that a large number of participants, like me, are doing just that?

It is attainable. Instead of downloading 11 shows at once, you download one, wait until you have uploaded the same amount of data back to other people, then download another show.
You have offered NO vines, b&p's, or freebies here.

Originally Posted by Dudogger

2) Occasionally, one downloads a show that is not worth keeping, burning, or sharing (due to poor quality), and in the user's opinion, shouldn't further pollute the trading pool by way of continued uploading.

With all the appropriate info provided on a torrent, the user makes the decision as to whether a show meets their standard of quality and choose to dl or not, NOT YOU!

Originally Posted by Dudogger

3) Some folks have great upload/download bandwidth. Good for you. mine is limited to about 28K...I’m still only uploading at 28K, so that my rate (speed) of contribution to other downloaders remains exactly the same. upload rate remains the same no matter what combination of torrents I might choose to upload to (today I have 11 active ones).

Refer to prior comment. Instead of downloading 11 shows at once, you download 1, upload the same amount you downloaded of that show, then start another torrent. 28K uploads right at 2 gigs in a 24 hour period. It's not about how fast your connection is, its what you do with it. You download 10 shows at a time, leech & run, thereby in, its 'unattainable' for you to have a 1:1 ratio

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Some folks have great upload/download bandwidth. Some do not, so they acquire what they can, when they can.

There is this thing, its called the United States Postal Service. They sell envelopes & these things called stamps. If you fill out the envelope with an address, put stamps on it, put discs in it, & mail it to someone you've discussed a trade with, they will send you an envelope with stamps and discs in return. This may come as news, but in the time it takes to download a 4 gig show & upload back 4 gigs, someone can burn 10-20 discs and trade them.
SHOCKING...I know

Originally Posted by Dudogger

4) If one were to halt downloads in order to increase ratio, that would mean one has temporarily stopped accumulating new material.

Breaking News....the world is coming to an end because Dudogger didn't acquire something new today.

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Still other people (including me) B&P like crazy,
Happy Trading and Happy Sharing

If you only did either of those

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...?userid=145598
Facts are:
Join Date: 12-27-06
Downloaded: 558.74 GB - Uploaded: 117.39 GB (0.21 ratio)
NO vines started by user
NO B&Ps offered by user
NO Torrents uploaded by user
12 out of 24 posts by user are "can i get a reseed" type comments
500+ gigs leeched in less than 4 months with nothing offered in return

As a newbie here I'll put in my .02 cents. I have a .70 ratio. Been here since 4/16. This site has BY FAR been the easiest to get my ratio going upward. The sheer volume and variety of torrents is astounding. I average about 85 kb/s down and about 20-25 up if things are flowing freely. Having a good ratio is important to me and I'm sure I'll be above 1 in the coming months. The reason it is (and should be) important to everyone is that this is a music SHARING site. We, as a community, share. That's what it's all about. It's really quite simple. I understand that some people can't share as much as others. That's fine. Those who just won't share are not people I want to be associated with, in person or by internet. There are a bunch of shows here I want. Once I get a good ratio I'll download one or two a week while downloading a current show to keep the pipes flowing both ways. I could find 10 shows easy to download now. Why be greedy? How much can I listen to anyway? Just a few rambling thoughts.--Kurt

[Dudogger]

Yawn

[Phishblowz]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Yawn

I wouldn't expect a conversation on decency and ethics to interest you

but it furthers the cause of banning douchebags like yourself...it's not even so much the ratio issue (which is an inexcusable disgrace) but the arrogance with which you carry yourself, as though you have a right to be such an ass and we are a bunch of dicks for calling you out on it...what makes you so special??? should we thank you for leeching our shit???

I know some folks out there with poor ratios that make a point to be humble and thank the seeders for every torrent, but to be a worthless leech in our community AND to have such arrogance is offensive, and even if there is no ban for ratios, YOU personally shouldn't be allowed to have membership here, regardless of your ratio, just cause you're a disrespectful little bitch

[ssquirrel]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Yawn

[Festafarian]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Yawn

Bad enough that you don't share with the community, but that's your answer when you're confronted with it?

You made a few good points about ratios. I promise that if you offered up some vines or B&Ps, you wouldn't get flamed. My upload speed sucks too. I don't even try to upload, but I give back in other ways.

You would be surprised how it comes back to you. i have done tons of B&Ps and have had people send me things in appreciation, and made lots of good trade buddies.

[Sami Dunn]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Yawn

What a dick.
I have not offered up any vines,B&Ps,or freebies. I'm ignorant to the whole mailing stuff out thing. I have a good excuse though, I'm a quadriplegic and I mostly don't have someone to handle my mail for me. Every second my computer's online I'm seeding for this community though. I'm also constantly burning shows for family & friends which in turn are copied for their friends and familys. The only thing I don't have an excuse for is my 0.17 post average.

[Phishblowz]

Originally Posted by Festafarian

Bad enough that you don't share with the community, but that's your answer when you're confronted with it?

You made a few good points about ratios. I promise that if you offered up some vines or B&Ps, you wouldn't get flamed. My upload speed sucks too. I don't even try to upload, but I give back in other ways.

You would be surprised how it comes back to you. i have done tons of B&Ps and have had people send me things in appreciation, and made lots of good trade buddies.

your upload sucks, and you make up for it other ways...which I know personally (thanx again) and yet you still manage a 1.0 ratio and you "don't even try to upload" so even the best excuse is nothing but a worthless excuse...now that doesn't mean "1 to 1 or you better run" or anything real hardcore, but there is a limit to what is excusable...and letting people run rampant and take endlessly with no efforts to give back is harmful to the progress of this community...if someone like you cn keep a 1:1 with virtually no effort, than how can someone fall below a .25 and honestly say they respect and appreciate the efforts of the others...it's simply disrespectful and inexcusable...I don't know for sure what ratio should put you in this category of members, but this dude is certainly in that category (more for his attitude than anything else too)

please let your voice be heard in the poll elsewhere in this forum...maybe we can actually DO something instead of just grumbling about it

[possessed]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Some, like me, have a pretty good download speed, but a very restrictive upload cap (mine is limited to about 28K, less than 10% of my maximum download speed).

My download speed is 500 and upload is 50 give or take few bytes. Some how I managed to get my ratio up. And I download from several torrent sites. And I have a 1+ ratio at all of them. Guess your argument is nothing but you trying to explain to the community why you must get but giving is just a nice by-product of you accidently leaving a torrent running longer than it took to download. It's a good think Lynne hasn't made me a MOD. I'd end up pruning losers like you left and right. Be happy Lynne's got a heart the size of Alaska.

My .02 and then some.

[AAR.oner]

do you ever have those moments when you wish this online community could materialize into a real 3dimensional space, lets say the pub maybe...that way all the wankers with their assanine opinions. greedy justifications, and complete lack of respect for the community could be served a healthy dose of some SHUTTHEFUCKUP! pint glass to the head style

[i should probly be de-modded Lynne, maybe take a break from online trading...leechers are beginning to make me violent ]

[possessed]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

do you ever have those moments when you wish this online community could materialize into a real 3dimensional space, lets say the pub maybe...that way all the wankers with their assanine opinions. greedy justifications, and complete lack of respect for the community could be served a healthy dose of some SHUTTHEFUCKUP! pint glass to the head style

[i should probly be de-modded Lynne, maybe take a break from online trading...leechers are beginning to make me violent ]

Some day I'm gonna travel to the mountains of crackalackee and smack you in the mouth. Then, you, me and Heather are gonna laugh for hours on end whilst drinking PBR and jamming to Ska Punk and old school rap. But I digress, you have a point well taken.

[AAR.oner]

Originally Posted by possessed

Some day I'm gonna travel to the mountains of crackalackee and smack you in the mouth. Then, you, me and Heather are gonna laugh for hours on end whilst drinking PBR and jamming to Ska Punk and old school rap. But I digress, you have a point well taken.

bring it bitch! i got some warm pabst cans from last summer's fest run just for you

[possessed]

mmmmm,warm PBR

[Jerzeemon]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

Yawn

Holy Bejeezsus Mon Shit,
If you put one quarter of your mental energy into not being defensive and rationalizing, we'd all be sooooooooo much better off.................not to mention above a 1.00
Jerz

[ssquirrel]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

do you ever have those moments when you wish this online community could materialize into a real 3dimensional space, lets say the pub maybe...that way all the wankers with their assanine opinions.

Yeah I agree. People use the internet as a way of saying retarded things that they would never say in real life

Open up a can of whoop-ass on em!

But... since this only the internet all we can do is BRING DOWN THE BANHAMMER!

[Phishblowz]

Originally Posted by ssquirrel

But... since this only the internet all we can do is BRING DOWN THE BANHAMMER!

unfortunately, all we can do is request the BANHAMMER...but thanx for your support...I think it's time for spring cleaning...let's take out the trash

[Silver Stallion DVDs]

I don't give a fuck about ratios. I never look to see what ratio someone has attained and I never check to see what they've given back or taken by other means. I just film shows when I have a chance, author them to DVD, and upload them. And occasionally I download shows that look interesting.

If people download a show I've uploaded and don't say thank you - I don't give a fuck. I do, however, appreciate actual comments (both positive and critical) about the upload itself, i.e., the show, the way it was filmed or authored, etc.

Beyond that... I really don't think that worrying about ratios is worth the time.

Randy

[Festafarian]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

do you ever have those moments when you wish this online community could materialize into a real 3dimensional space, lets say the pub maybe...that way all the wankers with their assanine opinions. greedy justifications, and complete lack of respect for the community could be served a healthy dose of some SHUTTHEFUCKUP! pint glass to the head style

[i should probly be de-modded Lynne, maybe take a break from online trading...leechers are beginning to make me violent ]

Well said!
You really gotta come see us... we got PBRs for $2.

We'll let you work the barricade at some hardcore show. Throwing kids back into the crowd for a coupla hours will get rid of some of that aggression.

[Dudogger]

Originally Posted by Silver Stallion DVDs

I don't give a fuck about ratios. I never look to see what ratio someone has attained and I never check to see what they've given back or taken by other means. I just film shows when I have a chance, author them to DVD, and upload them. And occasionally I download shows that look interesting.

If people download a show I've uploaded and don't say thank you - I don't give a fuck. I do, however, appreciate actual comments (both positive and critical) about the upload itself, i.e., the show, the way it was filmed or authored, etc.

Beyond that... I really don't think that worrying about ratios is worth the time.

Randy

And this coming from a guy with a real u/l contribution under his belt, who, as I've said, derives his pleasure from the quality offerings he makes! How refreshing. Thanks for the unexpected support, I think.

**************************************************

I find that a couple of days out in mother nature is far superior to sitting in front of the monitor wringing one's hands about what some unknown forum groupie has opined, and chomping at the bit to get back at them. For that matter, I'd rather have a hemorrhoidectomy.

Unfortunately, I had to come back, so this reply mainly addresses U2Lynne's post, which was pretty much the only one I saw that contained anything more than the monotonous drumbeat of hapless souls, striving to achieve artificial levels of control, while quoting dutifully from their handy TTD playbooks. Really guys, I've read it all before, many times over, and it only serves to make you sound like a 9th-gen cassette recording of a bunch of starving cats locked in a hot U-Haul. Try fishing, it's good for your head!

Just a couple of specific comments, though:

Phishblowz - More pablum, as expected, but you sound like such a good soldier in the war of 'Us versus Them'. You spew out the company lines with such ease and venom. How amusing then, to read your recent Band posts over at Lossless Legs, where you cop the persona of 'I'm the new guy, please like me', and then, when you get precious litte return backpatting, you go back in to grovel for accolades. Perhaps it occurred to you later that going to LL with a name like Phishblowz was maybe not so advisable, eh? But, I see where you're coming from, regardless of the Divide and Conquer posture you portray here. I guess you gotta get those warm & fuzzys however you can, though so many others can derive their satisfaction more squarely from initiating a quality upload/sharing process - without needing the drivel of followup thankybabble in order to justify the effort (e.g., Silver Stallion).

Chachi - Just what I like: concise and to the point. Good job not wasting the reader's time with the same old tired rehash one seems to encounter in most every other thread on this site. I admire the restraint.

k.crabbe - So what? Are you therefore suggesting that if we all would do things just like you the BT world will become all hunky-dory?

ssquirrel - "Ok not to upload because it's not convenient for me"? I think you've swallowed too much blotter, buddy. As I explained, I always upload at the fastest allowable rate, and close to 24/7, even when on the road. Where in the world did you conjure up this nonsense about my convenience from? Yikes!

retired - I'm impressed by the time that you clearly invested in picking snippets of text out of my earlier post, so as to use them out of context in order ride on your soapbox once again. I'll bet the Bill O'Reilly factor could use some additional help. A couple of typical examples: 1) When I say I have 11 active torrents on my BT client, you instantly infer that I'm downloading them all simultaneously, using that as one of many dubious reasons to go off. How silly. I was only making the point that I have a number of good shows residing on my hard drive/BT client that I can upload at different times, often according to demand, and always at my maximum allowable upload speed. However, statistically speaking, if someone is uploading under a dismal 28 K cap, but is at max speed, it shouldn't matter how many torrents he uploads to. Whether you're upping to one torrent at 28K, or 4 torrents at an average of 7K, you're still putting back at 28K, and the cumulative contribution back to the community as a whole is just the same. Grasp the math, or go lecture someone else who doesn't know better. 2) When I reference B&P and sharing, and you see fit to announce to the world that I've done neither, your sheer arrogance is what allows you to make the unfounded assumption that I only B&P through TTD or that I don't share, just because it's not trackable by your snooping eyes. News Flash - If you had read more than every third sentence of my original post, you would have seen the part about sharing with many who are less fortunate or capable than I. At TTD, and other places, I only trade discs via PM or e-mail - my choice, unless there's something in the TTD manual I missed. Not that it's anyone's business, but the last one I mailed out via TTD was a copy of the 2001 Neil Diamond A&E show, burned and mailed to a nice TTD member in CA after the torrent had gone inactive, who then sent me some good stuff in return. Too bad if this all escaped your prying eyes. Btw, in my experience B&P is best used to describe the concept of "Burn & Post", where you copy and send out shows, with no selfish consideration whatsoever of what you might get in return. This is what sharing is, my friend, and as I said before, I can't upload any faster than my system physically allows, just to appease a few misguided jokers in the crowd who think that sharing equates to curtailing your downloads (an entirely separate undertaking - see below).

U2LYNNE - Simply stated, displaying an unenforced ratio 'benchmark' breeds animosity (readily apparent, given the responses I've gotten), which would seem to me to be entirely contrary to the ideals of a quality trading site. What I've observed over the past few months here is an almost vigilante attitude by some towards others, for one clear reason: the 1.00 'guideline'. Seems that many who 'have' have self-deputized themselves against those who 'have not' or 'have less', without regard to circumstances. On top of it, I view an unenforced ratio concept as the enabler of this problem. As one who was raised near ground zero of the civil rights struggle, and reside there still, I have to say I'm seeing an ugly parallel here, somewhat analagous to the days of my youth where, if you were white, all was okay, regardless of what you had or did. But a person of ethnicity often endured a crush of racism that was in direct proportion to the depth of his own color. And thus it is with the red ratio numbers, and the scarlett letter-style of display that puts them out there for people to discriminate against, at will.

My opinion is this: Downloads and uploads are not diametrical opposites. As I said once before, once a new upload is complete, and is being shared around, it's out there, plain and simple, and thus is the gift that keeps on giving - to a point. Downloads shouldn't, in any way, be used as a measure of contribution to the community, which is happening now by way of ratios. Here's a good analogy, I think:

A man plants a cherry tree in a place which, 30 years hence, becomes a community park, regularly patronized by the same now-old man. By now the tree is lush with ripe cherries each season, and the old man watches lovingly from a nearby park bench as children come around to gleefully fill their buckets with free cherries. They never knew he was the one who planted the tree, but he always encouraged them to take as much as they could, before the cherries were gone, deriving his only thanks from the absolute numbers of children who came around to partake of his gift. Neither would he generally be aware of how many people associated with those children would also enjoy the picked cherries after they were taken home. Then, a few of the children, who had slightly larger buckets on those picking days, were able to take excess cherries over to their needy elderly neighbors to enjoy, in that they would never be able to pick cherries themselves. They were exceedingly grateful to the children for the gift of cherries, even though the children had not planted the tree, but had merely brought some of the cherries home for all to enjoy. And for that, the old man who planted the cherry tree had all the thanks he would ever need in life.

[The analogies, especially for those that didn't make it all the way through my impromptu parable, are this: the old man is the original uploader; the cherry tree is the torrent; the children are us; the cherries are completed downloads; watching happy children pick equates to the uploader who is happy by the number of his upload's completes; giving cherries, or show seeds, or burned shows on discs to others is true sharing - something that an original uploader should be additionally proud of, without browbeating a cherry-giver based on some arbitrary, but expected, return giving. (The Moral: Receiving comes fairly easily, but giving takes an individual's conscious decision and effort to do so, each contributing to the extent of his/her ability, without criticism, because that's all one can really do. That's community.)]

Thanks, U2Lynne, I'm well-familiar with etree, lossless legs, dime, purelivegigs, rusties, etc., and their various criteria, and am long-since registered at many of those, as well as use the straight d/l sites like Live Music Archive. I go where the quality music is, rather than seeking any particular kind of community, but if one's a good community, that's a bonus. Saying, 'well, if you don't like it here, you should go somewhere else' does not really apply, because I like much of the music available here, just not the negativity I sometimes have to wade through to obtain it. I probably discard one in every four or five downloaded shows, just because it's video and/or audio quality does not make for something I'd ever watch again (regardless of how the original seeder may have described its quality). I realize it impacts my ratio every time I do this, but since I believe ratio to be an invalid concept, unless enforced equally for all, that's not very relevant. Since, to me, it really is about maximizing my upload speed, and not ever about "taking only what I want, then leaving before giving anything back" (a ludicrous, overused statement that's much like "you're either with me, or against me". Where do you suppose the 122+ GB I've contributed back has gone? Perhaps it was sucked up the black hole of Phishblowz's ass, benefitting no one, forevermore, eh?).

I also have to say thanks for the suggestion about contacting my ISP. While I found they do not constrict my upload speed based on volume downloaded, I was in a fortuitous position to take timely advantage of a service preview which should serve to at least double my upload speed for the remainder of 2007. As of this morning, I was getting upwards of 60K in upload speed, which is really more like it compared to my previous 28K. And, it will upload at this speed whenever my BT client is on, as always. For anyone reading this who has Charter Hi-Speed, but has not received this recent upgrade preview, I highly recommend you contact them for a free alteration of your modem settings. The imbeciles may try to charge you more, like they did me, but let them know that you know that this is a free preview promoted by Charter - and don't take any of their lame garbage!

I don't spend my time reading many old posts, and maybe this has been proposed before, but what I would suggest is that you convert to more of an ebay-style format, where everyone starts at zero and works up through various thresholds. Instead of ebay colored stars, maybe you'd use musical notes or something. But the idea would be based on a public display of absolute upload volume, only (say, for every 100GB uploaded, towards a 1TB gold star, for example). This way, you accentuate achievement of contribution to the community without any 'relative deficits' even figuring in. Viable alternatives would be to either privatize the statistics, or begin enforcing ratio in some fashion. Sometimes, the happy middle-ground just doesn't work so ideally as conceived, and perhaps needs a little tweaking on occasion. As such, I hope you'll accept this as constructively-intended commentary on my experiences with TTD, regardless of the vitriol flying around us. It's often only through honest feedback that we can affect positive change, and that's what this has been about.

In the meantime, I say just move the music folks, to the best of your ability, individually. That's all we each need to be doing here, without creating and applying false standards with which to measure ourselves against others we don't really know very well. This isn't the Army, where the shit really does flow downstream. The creepy, backbiting environment fostered here is just not where a lot of pure music lovers will want to spend their time.

Happy Trails -

Dudogger, of the
Ratio Manifesto


P.S. - If you'd like to discuss the validity of unenforced ratio, and put up a synopsis of why it's actually a good and constructive thing, please have your say - I'd really love to read more than one intelligible response!

Alternately, for those of you who only know to insult, you may now resume.

[saltman]

Originally Posted by Dudogger

And this coming from a guy with a real u/l contribution under his belt, who, as I've said, derives his pleasure from the quality offerings he makes! How refreshing. Thanks for the unexpected support, I think.

**************************************************

I find that a couple of days out in mother nature is far superior to sitting in front of the monitor wringing one's hands about what some unknown forum groupie has opined, and chomping at the bit to get back at them. For that matter, I'd rather have a hemorrhoidectomy.

Unfortunately, I had to come back, so this reply mainly addresses U2Lynne's post, which was pretty much the only one I saw that contained anything more than the monotonous drumbeat of hapless souls, striving to achieve artificial levels of control, while quoting dutifully from their handy TTD playbooks. Really guys, I've read it all before, many times over, and it only serves to make you sound like a 9th-gen cassette recording of a bunch of starving cats locked in a hot U-Haul. Try fishing, it's good for your head!

Just a couple of specific comments, though:

Phishblowz - More pablum, as expected, but you sound like such a good soldier in the war of 'Us versus Them'. You spew out the company lines with such ease and venom. How amusing then, to read your recent Band posts over at Lossless Legs, where you cop the persona of 'I'm the new guy, please like me', and then, when you get precious litte return backpatting, you go back in to grovel for accolades. Perhaps it occurred to you later that going to LL with a name like Phishblowz was maybe not so advisable, eh? But, I see where you're coming from, regardless of the Divide and Conquer posture you portray here. I guess you gotta get those warm & fuzzys however you can, though so many others can derive their satisfaction more squarely from initiating a quality upload/sharing process - without needing the drivel of followup thankybabble in order to justify the effort (e.g., Silver Stallion).

Chachi - Just what I like: concise and to the point. Good job not wasting the reader's time with the same old tired rehash one seems to encounter in most every other thread on this site. I admire the restraint.

k.crabbe - So what? Are you therefore suggesting that if we all would do things just like you the BT world will become all hunky-dory?

ssquirrel - "Ok not to upload because it's not convenient for me"? I think you've swallowed too much blotter, buddy. As I explained, I always upload at the fastest allowable rate, and close to 24/7, even when on the road. Where in the world did you conjure up this nonsense about my convenience from? Yikes!

retired - I'm impressed by the time that you clearly invested in picking snippets of text out of my earlier post, so as to use them out of context in order ride on your soapbox once again. I'll bet the Bill O'Reilly factor could use some additional help. A couple of typical examples: 1) When I say I have 11 active torrents on my BT client, you instantly infer that I'm downloading them all simultaneously, using that as one of many dubious reasons to go off. How silly. I was only making the point that I have a number of good shows residing on my hard drive/BT client that I can upload at different times, often according to demand, and always at my maximum allowable upload speed. However, statistically speaking, if someone is uploading under a dismal 28 K cap, but is at max speed, it shouldn't matter how many torrents he uploads to. Whether you're upping to one torrent at 28K, or 4 torrents at an average of 7K, you're still putting back at 28K, and the cumulative contribution back to the community as a whole is just the same. Grasp the math, or go lecture someone else who doesn't know better. 2) When I reference B&P and sharing, and you see fit to announce to the world that I've done neither, your sheer arrogance is what allows you to make the unfounded assumption that I only B&P through TTD or that I don't share, just because it's not trackable by your snooping eyes. News Flash - If you had read more than every third sentence of my original post, you would have seen the part about sharing with many who are less fortunate or capable than I. At TTD, and other places, I only trade discs via PM or e-mail - my choice, unless there's something in the TTD manual I missed. Not that it's anyone's business, but the last one I mailed out via TTD was a copy of the 2001 Neil Diamond A&E show, burned and mailed to a nice TTD member in CA after the torrent had gone inactive, who then sent me some good stuff in return. Too bad if this all escaped your prying eyes. Btw, in my experience B&P is best used to describe the concept of "Burn & Post", where you copy and send out shows, with no selfish consideration whatsoever of what you might get in return. This is what sharing is, my friend, and as I said before, I can't upload any faster than my system physically allows, just to appease a few misguided jokers in the crowd who think that sharing equates to curtailing your downloads (an entirely separate undertaking - see below).

U2LYNNE - Simply stated, displaying an unenforced ratio 'benchmark' breeds animosity (readily apparent, given the responses I've gotten), which would seem to me to be entirely contrary to the ideals of a quality trading site. What I've observed over the past few months here is an almost vigilante attitude by some towards others, for one clear reason: the 1.00 'guideline'. Seems that many who 'have' have self-deputized themselves against those who 'have not' or 'have less', without regard to circumstances. On top of it, I view an unenforced ratio concept as the enabler of this problem. As one who was raised near ground zero of the civil rights struggle, and reside there still, I have to say I'm seeing an ugly parallel here, somewhat analagous to the days of my youth where, if you were white, all was okay, regardless of what you had or did. But a person of ethnicity often endured a crush of racism that was in direct proportion to the depth of his own color. And thus it is with the red ratio numbers, and the scarlett letter-style of display that puts them out there for people to discriminate against, at will.

My opinion is this: Downloads and uploads are not diametrical opposites. As I said once before, once a new upload is complete, and is being shared around, it's out there, plain and simple, and thus is the gift that keeps on giving - to a point. Downloads shouldn't, in any way, be used as a measure of contribution to the community, which is happening now by way of ratios. Here's a good analogy, I think:

A man plants a cherry tree in a place which, 30 years hence, becomes a community park, regularly patronized by the same now-old man. By now the tree is lush with ripe cherries each season, and the old man watches lovingly from a nearby park bench as children come around to gleefully fill their buckets with free cherries. They never knew he was the one who planted the tree, but he always encouraged them to take as much as they could, before the cherries were gone, deriving his only thanks from the absolute numbers of children who came around to partake of his gift. Neither would he generally be aware of how many people associated with those children would also enjoy the picked cherries after they were taken home. Then, a few of the children, who had slightly larger buckets on those picking days, were able to take excess cherries over to their needy elderly neighbors to enjoy, in that they would never be able to pick cherries themselves. They were exceedingly grateful to the children for the gift of cherries, even though the children had not planted the tree, but had merely brought some of the cherries home for all to enjoy. And for that, the old man who planted the cherry tree had all the thanks he would ever need in life.

[The analogies, especially for those that didn't make it all the way through my impromptu parable, are this: the old man is the original uploader; the cherry tree is the torrent; the children are us; the cherries are completed downloads; watching happy children pick equates to the uploader who is happy by the number of his upload's completes; giving cherries, or show seeds, or burned shows on discs to others is true sharing - something that an original uploader should be additionally proud of, without browbeating a cherry-giver based on some arbitrary, but expected, return giving. (The Moral: Receiving comes fairly easily, but giving takes an individual's conscious decision and effort to do so, each contributing to the extent of his/her ability, without criticism, because that's all one can really do. That's community.)]

Thanks, U2Lynne, I'm well-familiar with etree, lossless legs, dime, purelivegigs, rusties, etc., and their various criteria, and am long-since registered at many of those, as well as use the straight d/l sites like Live Music Archive. I go where the quality music is, rather than seeking any particular kind of community, but if one's a good community, that's a bonus. Saying, 'well, if you don't like it here, you should go somewhere else' does not really apply, because I like much of the music available here, just not the negativity I sometimes have to wade through to obtain it. I probably discard one in every four or five downloaded shows, just because it's video and/or audio quality does not make for something I'd ever watch again (regardless of how the original seeder may have described its quality). I realize it impacts my ratio every time I do this, but since I believe ratio to be an invalid concept, unless enforced equally for all, that's not very relevant. Since, to me, it really is about maximizing my upload speed, and not ever about "taking only what I want, then leaving before giving anything back" (a ludicrous, overused statement that's much like "you're either with me, or against me". Where do you suppose the 122+ GB I've contributed back has gone? Perhaps it was sucked up the black hole of Phishblowz's ass, benefitting no one, forevermore, eh?).

I also have to say thanks for the suggestion about contacting my ISP. While I found they do not constrict my upload speed based on volume downloaded, I was in a fortuitous position to take timely advantage of a service preview which should serve to at least double my upload speed for the remainder of 2007. As of this morning, I was getting upwards of 60K in upload speed, which is really more like it compared to my previous 28K. And, it will upload at this speed whenever my BT client is on, as always. For anyone reading this who has Charter Hi-Speed, but has not received this recent upgrade preview, I highly recommend you contact them for a free alteration of your modem settings. The imbeciles may try to charge you more, like they did me, but let them know that you know that this is a free preview promoted by Charter - and don't take any of their lame garbage!

I don't spend my time reading many old posts, and maybe this has been proposed before, but what I would suggest is that you convert to more of an ebay-style format, where everyone starts at zero and works up through various thresholds. Instead of ebay colored stars, maybe you'd use musical notes or something. But the idea would be based on a public display of absolute upload volume, only (say, for every 100GB uploaded, towards a 1TB gold star, for example). This way, you accentuate achievement of contribution to the community without any 'relative deficits' even figuring in. Viable alternatives would be to either privatize the statistics, or begin enforcing ratio in some fashion. Sometimes, the happy middle-ground just doesn't work so ideally as conceived, and perhaps needs a little tweaking on occasion. As such, I hope you'll accept this as constructively-intended commentary on my experiences with TTD, regardless of the vitriol flying around us. It's often only through honest feedback that we can affect positive change, and that's what this has been about.

In the meantime, I say just move the music folks, to the best of your ability, individually. That's all we each need to be doing here, without creating and applying false standards with which to measure ourselves against others we don't really know very well. This isn't the Army, where the shit really does flow downstream. The creepy, backbiting environment fostered here is just not where a lot of pure music lovers will want to spend their time.

Happy Trails -

Dudogger, of the
Ratio Manifesto


P.S. - If you'd like to discuss the validity of unenforced ratio, and put up a synopsis of why it's actually a good and constructive thing, please have your say - I'd really love to read more than one intelligible response!

Alternately, for those of you who only know to insult, you may now resume.

I feel so un-noticed. Couldn't I at least gotten my name in italics.

[Dudogger]

Originally Posted by saltman

I feel so un-noticed. Couldn't I at least gotten my name in italics.

My bad. Next time, I promise! But you've been here a while. Do tell why a casual ratio method is really the best way. What's the real purpose served? I'm all ears. Help me to wrap my headspace around the theory!