Extracting silvers, the use of extracting software and log files

[jabulon]

We, the staff, have been discussing some of the audio rules, in particular rules 5&6 concerning the use of an error correcting ripper (like EAC) in relation to silver bootlegs.

These are our current rules:

5. CDR rips of material available on Silver CD and rips of CDRs burned from previously downloaded lossless files are not permitted.
We at The Traders' Den are trying to promote purity in the trading pool. When dealing with a set that has been released on silver pressed CD, we require that the lossless files have been cleanly ripped from an original silver CD. To help ensure that everyone has equal access to pure versions, Silver CD > CDR > Lossless is not a legal lineage. On the same token, once a show has been ripped to lossless media format, burning to a CD and then re-extracting is an extraneous step that often-times results in errors. FLAC, APE, or SHN sets that circulate may not be burned to audio CD and then re-traded or re-seeded. In otherwords, nothing like flac > CDR > (extraction method > wav >) flac. Please archive and trade only the original lossless files or acoustically identical alternate formats (verify this with st5s - see the Checksum Types FAQ). CDR generations are bad for the trading pool, and unless all versions of the bootleg circulate only on CDR, it will not be permitted here.

6. If you rip an audio CD to lossless files, you must use an error correcting ripper.
Right now, the only programs permitted for ripping are Exact Audio Copy (EAC), dbpoweramp in Secure Mode, xACT, cdparanoia and PlexTools DAE. This is to ensure that the audio content of the lossless files perfectly matches that of your audio CD, and is not negotiable. Use one of these verifiable ripping programs or your seed will not be permitted.

We understand that some people may have older rips where the result logs may not have been included. In this case, please give your files a close listen to ensure that they are error-free before seeding. All new rips should contain result logs.

The reason we ask you to play by our rules is to keep the trading pool from diluting (see our mission statement). Recently there has been some situations which made us to take a look if we can protect the trading pool any better, especially the trading of silvers. We already ask people to include a log file of the ripping program used (rule 6) but many times they are omitted. Now we are playing with the idea to make the inclusion of an extraction log file mandatory when uploading a silver to the site. We would like to know what you think about this?

Thoughts, ideas or suggestions are welcome.

[paddington]

I am in favor of mandating inclusion of an extraction log file when uploading a silver rip.

For implementation, I suggest we have a box similar to the FFP / hash / checksums box where the extraction log file must be pasted when uploading.

Further, it might be helpful to add a field to denote whether the source is a silver / pressed CD. If this field is set true, the extraction log box must contain 'x' chars of data before torrent will submit.

[uninvited94]

Originally Posted by jameskg

I am in favor of mandating inclusion of an extraction log file when uploading a silver rip.

For implementation, I suggest we have a box similar to the FFP / hash / checksums box where the extraction log file must be pasted when uploading.

+1

[Audioarchivist]

How would this really work then? Will any and all new posts that come from a silver boot CD need a log file? What about things that are traded from silvers that you don't own? I mean, stuff downloaded from other sites, etc? Will TTD's current uploads be combed through and culled to make this rule across the board for all previously posted stuff? Will "legacy" rips without logs be allowable? Where do you draw the line?

[paddington]

That is the purpose of this discussion being public. We welcome all input / solutions.


What we are trying to combat is the recent (last year or so) glut of people simply typing Silver > EAC > FLAC when they don't have any lineage info. We then find other clues in the post showing that no be unlikely... it's time-consuming and inevitably results in things slipping through the cracks.


I would lean toward grandfathering existing torrents, on this site, for sure. I'd want to see this additional policy be a forward-looking mandate, only.

[jabulon]

Originally Posted by Audioarchivist

How would this really work then? Will any and all new posts that come from a silver boot CD need a log file? What about things that are traded from silvers that you don't own? I mean, stuff downloaded from other sites, etc? Will TTD's current uploads be combed through and culled to make this rule across the board for all previously posted stuff? Will "legacy" rips without logs be allowable? Where do you draw the line?

Originally Posted by jameskg

That is the purpose of this discussion being public. We welcome all input / solutions.


What we are trying to combat is the recent (last year or so) glut of people simply typing Silver > EAC > FLAC when they don't have any lineage info. We then find other clues in the post showing that no be unlikely... it's time-consuming and inevitably results in things slipping through the cracks.


I would lean toward grandfathering existing torrents, on this site, for sure. I'd want to see this additional policy be a forward-looking mandate, only.

We are trying to figure that out. I realize that going back in time and going through all previously uploaded silvers is no real option here, so this would apply to newly posted/ripped torrents of silvers only. Let me say this, if you haven't made the rip yourself, but got it from a trade or downloaded it somewhere else, you can never be sure about the accuracy of the lineage, now can you. A log file from the extraction software used can help to ascertain that lineage, it says that a particular software was used for extracting the files. When using an extraction program like EAC it's a small step to make a log file, just one simple click with the mouse is enough. Remember that the general idea of this site is trying to keep the trade pool as clean as possible. Right now it's fairly easy to fake a lineage, e.g.:

Let's say I have a silver and I rip this to flac with a program like windows mediaplayer (a ripper not allowed here), I can easily say that I've used EAC for extraction or that I got it from a trade and they said they used it, but there is nothing like a log file to back this up. So my 'fake' lineage would be silver>EAC>FLAC. Now if I would need a log file to show, I can't say this anymore, so I can't pollute the pool with this rip.

[rspencer]

I'm for it.

[jabulon]

May be apply this to only silvers that are made from shows starting let's say 2013? That way we don't affect the current circulating silvers that are correctly ripped but might not have a log file to go with it.