MMM Records

[guygee]

What is lower than a bootlegger? How about an mp3 bootlegger.
Check out this SG clip taken from an EAC copy of Frank Zappa 1973-11-18
from the bootleg 'Ontario Slime' "Moustache's Magic Music" (MMM) Records,
(MMM-04-37). I think if we find one boot mp3 than all boots from that label should be automatically suspect. Could anyone contribute a second opinion on this one, please? (sorry I clipped off the timescale, just a couple of seconds or so).

[range_hood]

This looks no good.

[guygee]

Here is a more proper view, Track 01, taken with Soundforge 8.0. Could we agree, an mp3 for sure?

[Five]

doesn't look good at all to me

also, there's at least one metallica silver out there which is mp3 sourced like this one.

[U2Lynne]

I think Five or ssamadhi97 will say mp3 for sure (those blocks :nono: ). Freezer will, of course, feel he has proven his point about Silver CDs.

[guygee]

OK, I also ran a frequency analysis, using window size 4096, on the entire Track 01. What is going on with this track?

[jcrab66]

damn, thats a real strange looking dip there on the FA...

[freezer]

What is lower than a bootlegger? How about an mp3 bootlegger.
Check out this SG clip taken from an EAC copy of Frank Zappa 1973-11-18
from the bootleg 'Ontario Slime' "Moustache's Magic Music" (MMM) Records,
(MMM-04-37).

Ask for your money back, guygee. Demand a refund. Write MMM and tell 'em who you are. Send 'em a 20 page letter detailing the difference between mp3, shn, flac and wav files. They probably just don't know any better.

I'm "sure" they'll want to give you complete customer satisfaction.



I think Five or ssamadhi97 will say mp3 for sure (those blocks :nono: ). Freezer will, of course, feel he has proven his point about Silver CDs.

Lynne, of course you might consider letting this poor bootlegger know how and where he can get better quality material for free. We don't want them dirty ol' mp3 bootlegs to get confused with "good" boots with 'real lineage' - do we, hmmmm?

Especially since those "original silver" boots can last over 100 years.


:rolleyes:



And how could an mp3 of a Zappa show get into common circulation? Who would do such a thing as to pass off an mp3 of a FZ show anyway??? Not a legitimate Zappa collector? :lol

[jcrab66]

Ask for your money back, guygee. Demand a refund. Write MMM and tell 'em who you are. Send 'em a 20 page letter detailing the difference between mp3, shn, flac and wav files. They probably just don't know any better.

I'm "sure" they'll want to give you complete customer satisfaction.


:roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[U2Lynne]

Lynne, of course you might consider letting this poor bootlegger know how and where he can get better quality material for free. We don't want them dirty ol' mp3 bootlegs to get confused with "good" boots with 'real lineage' - do we, hmmmm?

Especially since those "original silver" boots can last over 100 years.


:rolleyes:
I'll be sure to email him tomorrow, freezer. I wouldn't want this guy to continue to spead mp3 sourced bootlegs!

Freezer, I have to say that the reason I enjoy you so much is because you really *do* make sense. However, you are talking about a life without internet sometimes. We have to deal with reality now, and internet and bittorrent are what is real right now. So, these bootleggers exist.... bt exists..... ebay exists..... tapers exist..... traders exist..... it's all about trying to figure out how to deal with all these real things right now. I don't think there is a right answer. And if there were a right answer, it would require everyone agreeing and doing the same thing. I think we know that isn't going to happen. So, most sites try their best to deal with the reality in the best way possible. Right now, our way is to try to liberate bootlegged shows and get them out to people so people don't need to buy them. And, we also want to give tapers a way to get shows out to the masses so bootleggers lose. I think, at the moment, perhaps neither side is really winning. So, we keep trying.

If you have a better idea that could really work, spell it out.

[guygee]

Hey guys, this is being torrented right now over here:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=55960

Just trying to figure out if it is actually an mp3, or just some very bad "remastering" being done by some booter, and in the process trying to save a bunch of people from downloading and trading mp3's, maybe right back at me.

And for the sake of TTD, a warning that any seeds of MMM boots could be mp3-sourced, so be cautious of that "label".

Is that guy on the other site trolling when he says, "The audio quality is excellent!! Easily one of the better sounding Zappa boots to come down the pike in awhile."??

Like, do I trust "econeywaaa"?

It is good to get to know who to trust and who not to trust.

[U2Lynne]

I would hit the Report this Post button. It sounds like someone thinks the Mods already know what is up. No need for us to reanalyze it (and doesn't DIME need to analyze it themselves anyway? I'd love to hear what they had to say back then).

[freezer]

If you have a better idea that could really work, spell it out.

Just say no to bootlegs.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol



Oh, yeah, and be honest with each other.

The hobby is based on trust. Make it so, Number One.

Call it bullshit when you see that it's bullshit.

If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck and it looks like a duck and it smells like a duck, goddamit it must be a duck. Say so. :rolleyes:

[guygee]

I would hit the Report this Post button. It sounds like someone thinks the Mods already know what is up. No need for us to reanalyze it (and doesn't DIME need to analyze it themselves anyway? I'd love to hear what they had to say back then).

I guess it is just one of those "soundforge workout" evenings ;)

I sent DIME the same as I sent here. They are trying to sort through it in their own way, which is in private, instead of in public. I am not sure I agree with that philosopy, so I brought it here. Sorry if that is bad form, but I know that there are some people here that are good at this sort of analysis, so I go through these little exercises, in part, to learn from others. Anyone reading this thread can learn something from it as well.

Anyways, what goes around comes around, so let's knock the worst stuff out of the loop forever. If "MMM" becomes widely known as mp3 booters, I would think it would save the TTD mods some trouble if somebody tries to seed their stuff here.

[jcrab66]

quack quack....

[Five]

I can get behind that

hey guygee can you show us spectral view zoomed to two seconds in cep/audacity whatever that is you used to make the fa?

this show looks really freakin weird

[guygee]

Five - I am just getting the hang of sizing these right so they are not too large to upload, here is a 2 Sec zoom (this is with Soundforge 8.0, the fa was with Cool Edit Pro 2.0):

[guygee]

...We have to deal with reality now, and internet and bittorrent are what is real right now. So, these bootleggers exist.... bt exists..... ebay exists..... tapers exist..... traders exist..... it's all about trying to figure out how to deal with all these real things right now. I don't think there is a right answer. And if there were a right answer, it would require everyone agreeing and doing the same thing. I think we know that isn't going to happen. So, most sites try their best to deal with the reality in the best way possible. Right now, our way is to try to liberate bootlegged shows and get them out to people so people don't need to buy them. And, we also want to give tapers a way to get shows out to the masses so bootleggers lose. I think, at the moment, perhaps neither side is really winning. So, we keep trying.

U2Lynne - I have to add that I agree completely with the ideas you expressed above. Freezer claims it is a level playing field with respect to shows he released long ago, but I respectfully have to disagree - I think it could be all downhill from here if we are not vigilant. This show we are discussing now could be some kind of "new threat", it may be some advanced kind of lossy compression or some kind of screwed-up NR that is just as bad as an mp3, or maybe it is something as simple as a ham-handed bandstop filter, perhaps even used to "mark" this version of the show.

I looked at the sg and fa and passed it on to others, calling it "bizarre", Five says it is "freakin' weird", and others whom I have shown it to used almost the exact same description. So I think it would be great if we can pull together all the expertise we can muster, get if figured out, and get the word out. If you would rather I not start up such discussions in the future, I will honor your request (with regrets). If we cannot stay on the simple topic at hand, "what happened to this show", then all the off-topic clutter and flaming renders such discussions useless anyways.

[christo]

d/led this too ...
sitting in front of fa ...
think fa goes down to early (at about 13 to 14k and comes back at 16k in my sample)
could it be fm-sourced and digitally ruined?

[range_hood]

This looks strange, but lossy. That´s part of track 2 (DaD).

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4435/zappa19731118mmmsa16jr.th.png (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zappa19731118mmmsa16jr.png)

zoomed in the y-axis the blocks come out nicer.
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4729/zappa19731118mmmsa27li.th.png (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zappa19731118mmmsa27li.png)

guygee, never seen soundforge sa-pics. Could you increase the FFT size?

[freezer]

U2Lynne - I have to add that I agree completely with the ideas you expressed above. Freezer claims it is a level playing field with respect to shows he released long ago, but I respectfully have to disagree - I think it could be all downhill from here if we are not vigilant.

The playing field is level, as level as you're going to get it as long as you trust the bootleggers you buy from. Its as level as you can get when you buy stolen property and expect a fair shake.

So, how much money did you say you paid for this Zappa "Ontario Slime" boot?

Well, you obviously got your money's worth.

Caveat Emptor, guy.



This show we are discussing now could be some kind of "new threat", it may be some advanced kind of lossy compression or some kind of screwed-up NR that is just as bad as an mp3, or maybe it is something as simple as a ham-handed bandstop filter, perhaps even used to "mark" this version of the show.

If you know anything about the Zappa trade community, only one particular Zappa collector has the reputation for circulating mp3 shows with "ham-fisted" noise reduction techniques. Do you think it's possible that this poor unsuspecting bootlegger got stung when he stole this show for 'commercial' release?

If you look at the dimeadozen thread for this show---
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=55960
---you'll see that some folks have actually figured it out.

"A new threat???" The sky is falling, the sky is falling. :eek:



I looked at the sg and fa and passed it on to others, calling it "bizarre", Five says it is "freakin' weird", and others whom I have shown it to used almost the exact same description. So I think it would be great if we can pull together all the expertise we can muster, get if figured out, and get the word out.

Get the word out? You want to condemn this poor bootlegger's entire catalogue just because you were unhappy with your first experience with his 'product'???

As many comments at dime raved about the sound quality as comdemned it.
That appears to be a pretty level playing field. What more are you owed?



If you would rather I not start up such discussions in the future, I will honor your request (with regrets). If we cannot stay on the simple topic at hand, "what happened to this show", then all the off-topic clutter and flaming renders such discussions useless anyways.

Now let's see if I understand you---
You're worried about this show/bootleg because you want to know "what happened to this show"???

And you think that determining who in the Zappa community seeds shows that are mp3 sourced with "ham-fisted" noise reduction is 'off-topic'???

You know, if you'd have just read at your own posts in that very same thread on dime, (you remember, the one you said helped 'just muddied the waters even more...") then you could have figured it out and you wouldn't have needed to start this thread and get hysterical.

Calm down Chicken Little, the sky isn't falling......just yet.

A little common sense would have told you who stung the bootlegger and you by extention. :rolleyes:

quack, quack, guy.

No need to take your ball and go home......just yet.

[Rider]

Basically any Silver CD or Liberrated Bootleg is from an unknown and they all should be checked before posted anywhere. Not sure why we would have to have a policy on just one bootlegger, if anything we should require a FA on anything like this.

[guygee]

Rider - Does TTD require FA on all boots seeded here? I agree the seeder should do it before seeding, but in mariginal cases what do they have to compare to?
I already knew there was a version of that show circulating, a/d'ed and uploaded by someone who was a solid seeder and gained my trust with his seeds on STG (now a "zappateer"), so I downloaded that show for the express purpose of analyzing it to solve a "mystery", to learn something and discuss it with people with similar interests in audio analysis, and just maybe to provide a small service to other people in the process. freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching, but I only had to listen to the first few seconds of that show to know that "something was wrong", so I suggest that any other shows from that label should be suspect as well.

[Rider]

Rider - Does TTD require FA on all boots seeded here? I agree the seeder should do it before seeding, but in mariginal cases what do they have to compare to?
I already knew there was a version of that show circulating, a/d'ed and uploaded by someone who was a solid seeder and gained my trust with his seeds on STG (now a "zappateer"), so I downloaded that show for the express purpose of analyzing it to solve a "mystery", to learn something and discuss it with people with similar interests in audio analysis, and just maybe to provide a small service to other people in the process. freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching, but I only had to listen to the first few seconds of that show to know that "something was wrong", so I suggest that any other shows from that label should be suspect as well.


NO but we do require people to at least check any show with unknown parts of it's lineage, and anyshow that has goen through the hands of a bootlegger has basically a totally unknown lineage.

[guygee]

Agreed, I have never seen a bootleg with lineage, and I wouldn't trust the lineage if it was there, but the guy who seeded this show presumably "checked" by listening, and even announced the seed over on Zappateers.

I've never been big into bootlegs, but there seem to be people out there that revere certain "boot labels", like "Kiss the Stone" or "Crystal Cat". I don't necessarily understand this fetish for these boots (I "hope" it is musical quality but for all I know it is the artwork??), but in lieu of any verifiable lineage, in theory a bootleg is just as good a starting point to compare sources as any other. In practice, however, I have come to trust certain seeders over others, and that is when some occassional analysis and discussion can help spread the word.

I hope you or any of the other moderators at TTD did not find my posts to be offensive, it was not meant to be so.

[guygee]

d/led this too ...
sitting in front of fa ...
think fa goes down to early (at about 13 to 14k and comes back at 16k in my sample)
could it be fm-sourced and digitally ruined?

Unless somebody comes along with better knowledge of audio software algorithms, my last best guess as to "what happened to this show" is pretty much summed up in freezer's post above.

You were right again freezer, it was right in front of me and I didn't see it.

[U2Lynne]

Guy, I didn't mean to say it shouldn't be discussed here (I actually like reading this stuff and trying to learn about what goes into FA and SA), I was just saying that someone should alert the Mods over there since it seemed they had already discussed that show at one point. And, I, like you, wish that they talked about this stuff in public over there like we do here. I think everyone can learn something by looking at these discussions.

I'm interested to read that thread at DIME that freezer posted, however, it seems DIME is down (which means that any minute now we can expect the "Is DIME working for you?" thread in The Lounge. lol).

[freezer]

YOW....it's getting deep in here .....gotta get on the ol' galoshes to wade through this stuff .....

But since this does reference using common sense to understand the bootleg mentality AND to discern sound quality on said bootlegs, I hope it's alright to post this here. ;)


Agreed, I have never seen a bootleg with lineage, and I wouldn't trust the lineage if it was there ........

Aren't you the same guygee who posted this on dime:
"I never believe booters UNLESS I know the label to be very reliable"

Well, guygee, I guess you would say something like that since all your listed torrents at dime are from boots.....or possibly a tape source which is the same as a boot...but maybe it's pre-boot (or maybe not)

QUOTE--- "Now in this case there is a boot, "Sing in Singen" that is "reportedly" a SBD ...... but this is NOT sourced from that boot, as the timings for "Sing in Singen" are different than mine" ---ENDQUOTE

Since you "bought" that Miles Davis show, what leads you to believe that you didn't purchase nothing more than a tape copy of a bootleg? What makes you so positive that you "bought" a pre-bootleg cassette??? (Maybe a boot seller 'told' you so?...)

What sort of comparisons did you perform on both the tape/bootleg to be 100% certain that your copy is indeed a a 'pre-bootleg' copy and not just another higher gen copy recorded directly off the bootleg???



I've never been big into bootlegs..........

For someone not "big" into bootlegs, haven't your only seeds at dime been from bootlegs?

quack quack guy



freezer's sudden sympathy with "poor unsuspecting booters" is touching

No, it's sarcasm. A little deductive reasoning would have give you the clue you needed. I guess I shouldn't have left off the lol icon. :rolleyes:

:lol :lol :lol

[U2Lynne]

But since this does reference using common sense to understand the bootleg mentality AND to discern sound quality on said bootlegs, I hope it's alright to post this here. ;)
Nope. I told Guy he could post here, not you! :nono: :nono: :nono:

[freezer]

Well, Miss Lynne, I guess you told me off but good....... :rolleyes:

And gee whiz and goodness golly. Miss Lynne, I sure do hope them big bad bootleggers don't scare lil' guygee no more.

"The sky is falling............"

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[paddington]

I don't think that looks like MP3 encoding. It looks like a notch filter to me. I have no idea why the hell you'd notch 13-16kHz, but it's been done. It's a notched attenuation.

If it was FM sourced, there would be nothing above the 15kHz pilot, so that's out. I think there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.

It COULD have been variable bitrate MP3, THEN notched out. Either way, it's screwed, but it's not FM and I don't think it's MP3 either, unless it is VBR.

[guygee]

Aren't you the same guygee who posted this on dime:
"I never believe booters UNLESS I know the label to be very reliable"


Since I seem to be on trial here...

I was never part of the "Doors Inner Circle" (an actual group of tapers/traders that had a website for awhile, by invitation only) and I had just recently obtained a replacement copy of the Doors Complete Matrix Tapes KTS boot from doors kicks-ass ftp, a boot that has stood the test of time for folks not in any inner circles (until recently widely acknowledged as best available version) so my comment was influenced by that particular version and label.

Since it is the only KTS boot I ever listened to (to my knowledge), my statement with "Unless" was not a good statement for me to make. So I misspoke a word or two, somewhere where you could find it...Feel Better Now? (Guilty As Charged)

Go search the google news groups back from 1989-1995, I am sure you will find a rich vein there to continue poking fun at me until hell freezes over. It is all a learning process for me, while you seem to be mired in your certainties.


Well, guygee, I guess you would say something like that since all your listed torrents at dime are from boots.....or possibly a tape source which is the same as a boot...but maybe it's pre-boot (or maybe not)


Yeah, all two are boots (one "Silver", one CDr(x)). The Miles Singen show was never in wide circulation until I seeded it, first at STG and then at DIME. I spent many hours going through that show fixing all of these little 10 ms-100 ms one-channel dropouts, literally searching sample-by-by sample. As I've learned from you, maybe these were "markings"? They are all unaudible now, but listed in my info.

The other seed was by request.


QUOTE--- "Now in this case there is a boot, "Sing in Singen" that is "reportedly" a SBD ...... but this is NOT sourced from that boot, as the timings for "Sing in Singen" are different than mine" ---ENDQUOTE

Since you "bought" that Miles Davis show, what leads you to believe that you didn't purchase nothing more than a tape copy of a bootleg? What makes you so positive that you "bought" a pre-bootleg cassette??? (Maybe a boot seller 'told' you so?...)

What sort of comparisons did you perform on both the tape/bootleg to be 100% certain that your copy is indeed a a 'pre-bootleg' copy and not just another higher gen copy recorded directly off the bootleg???


Go back and read the post, and quit making your selective quotations that only serve to mislead. I never said I was "positive" it was not sourced from some bootleg, you said it.

The booter told me nothing about lineage, my reasoning was thus: My timings did not match the bootleg "Sing in Singen", as listed on an internet site, but they did match Peter Losin's timings, back when he collected cassette tapes. So *maybe* my show was from an earlier branch in the lineage. You'll note that I called it an aud and someone came back to correct me, it was "too good" to be an aud, and I told him I really didn't know, then I tried to make a reasonable guess. I suppose it is possible that a booter retracked "Sing in Singen" to match Peter Losin's timings exactly, but that seemed extremely unlikely, so I am fairly positive it was not sourced from that particular boot. I never said anything like "100% certain" it was not sourced from some boot, you said it in another attempt to mislead. (Found Innocent).

Court adjourned...for good.

And by all means please follow up and finish this topic with some famous last words. Like maybe you can top your last zinger


You somehow think the world owes you something. I sure as hell don't, not even the wind from my ass to cool your soup.

I notice some people here at TTD have adopted that as their .sig now. What a great contribution you have made to the friendly atmosphere at TTD!

Really, freezer, I respect your knowledge, but I am tired of your constant ad hominem attacks. Didn't mommy breastfeed you when you were a baby?
As they used to say on Usenet, "plonk"...(now where is that killfile feature on the tracker??)

[paddington]

Yeah, so, anyway.... this source appears to be uniquely molested... no particular common method.

[freezer]

there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.


guygee, he's referring to you. Them boot boys got your number.

Quack quack, guy........ :rolleyes:

[guygee]

I don't think that looks like MP3 encoding. It looks like a notch filter to me. I have no idea why the hell you'd notch 13-16kHz, but it's been done. It's a notched attenuation.

If it was FM sourced, there would be nothing above the 15kHz pilot, so that's out. I think there was an irritating whine here for one reason or another and the boot boys removed it.

It COULD have been variable bitrate MP3, THEN notched out. Either way, it's screwed, but it's not FM and I don't think it's MP3 either, unless it is VBR.

I think definitely a notch filter, but how about that blockiness above 16 KHz? How would that come in except with some lossy encoding? So I lean towards Notched/VBR. I should try that on some other shows and see if they look the same as this one.

[U2Lynne]

I think definitely a notch filter, but how about that blockiness above 16 KHz? How would that come in except with some lossy encoding? So I lean towards Notched/VBR. I should try that on some other shows and see if they look the same as this one.
If you do try that on a show, send the FA and SA to Five (and/or post them in a thread here - post the original and then the after affects). It's good to see what happens when you 'do' something to a show. That way we can all learn what it looks like and be better able to spot this stuff the next time it happens.

Also, there is an Ignore feature.... User CP > bottom of left column: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/profile.php?do=editlist

Don't let freezer get to you. It's not worth letting *anyone* on a messageboard get to you. Especially when they *try* to get to you. And yeah, I've learned that the hard way!

[freezer]

Go back and read the post, and quit making your selective quotations that only serve to mislead. I never said I was "positive" it was not sourced from some bootleg, you said it.

No I asked if you were positive.

Are you positive?

See....That was a question. Same as before.

??? usually denotes a question.

Go back and read the post, and you'll understand the difference between a statement and a question.



The booter told me nothing about lineage, my reasoning was thus: My timings did not match the bootleg "Sing in Singen", as listed on an internet site, but they did match Peter Losin's timings, back when he collected cassette tapes. So *maybe* my show was from an earlier branch in the lineage. You'll note that I called it an aud and someone came back to correct me, it was "too good" to be an aud, and I told him I really didn't know, then I tried to make a reasonable guess. I suppose it is possible that a booter retracked "Sing in Singen" to match Peter Losin's timings exactly, but that seemed extremely unlikely, so I am fairly positive it was not sourced from that particular boot. I never said anything like "100% certain" it was not sourced from some boot, you said it in another attempt to mislead. (Found Innocent).


Found innocent?

Again, I asked.

You mislead when you attempt to make it appear it was a statement.

These were questions I asked about your bootlegs. And your conclusions about them. I was curious to see if you were as meticilous about the 2 bootlegs you offered as you are were about a Zappa bootleg you were getting for free.

But I notice you have a propensity not to answer direct questions.
(Found guilty)



"Plonk" indeed :rolleyes:



Don't let anyone *get* to you....

Especially when you *know* the sky is falling.

[paddington]

:wtf: I've forgotten what the hell the actual audio is now... is it worth all this? :lol

[guygee]

:wtf: I've forgotten what the hell the actual audio is now... is it worth all this? :lol

No, it is not. Sorry for the blow-up, but I was just trying to carry on a simple conversation on this show, and multiple "quack quack" replies are not on topic, so there is just too much noise to converse. Also maybe this forum should be reserved strictly for audio analysis and not rehashing the ridiculous Zappa wars that have been going on since since the days of alt.binaries.*. I started a "ninja documentation" thread in the past regarding his STG seeds, it is buried on some firewire drive somewhere, so maybe Zappateers would like to archive that if I can dig it out. For my part I think, here, let's just post the SGs and FAs and discuss what they mean, and what processes may have created any anomalies.

I will try the experiment with VBR using a couple of different codecs and then notch them like this show, then compare before and after and with this show. I'll post it under a new thread in the near future. Since those blocks above 16KHz are of different blocksize time intervals, I am thinking that this is the VBR signature to look for, so it would be good to verify if this is true, and dig out what information we can on the various codec algorithms, like minimum block size.

[jcrab66]

i wish i had the time to delve as far deep into pointless shit as some people do....

[applepiehubub]

So what would it look like if lossless? Forgive my ignorance here, but how do you tell the diff from spectrum analyses? What do you look for? :confused:

[paddington]

Five will be along shortly with a link for you... :)

[U2Lynne]

I suggest you take a look at the Stickies at the top of this forum.

[Five]

So what would it look like if lossless? Forgive my ignorance here, but how do you tell the diff from spectrum analyses? What do you look for? :confused:
yes, check the stickys.

the best way to learn is to read some of the threads here, especially the ones with lots of pics.

loosely, what to look for is a steep dropoff in the fa and lego in the sa when zoomed in