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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2005-07-23, 02:12 AM
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Radio Two = mp2?

Yesterday I pulled this one:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ead.php?t=9517

The lineage is:
Roberts Tuner>Endirol Soundcard>PC-Goldwave>WAV>Flac

I have no reason to doubt this... the analysis is not pretty. BigBoyPete assures me that the lineage is correct and I have no reason to doubt it. So, what I'm wondering is whether the bbc radio two broadcasts in mp2 and also am looking for some confirmation from others that this source is lossy.

here is a sample downloadable from rapidshare.de:
http://rapidshare.de/files/3279939/2...theme.zip.html
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Last edited by Five; 2005-07-23 at 02:24 AM.
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  #2  
Old 2005-07-23, 02:17 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

SA from elsewhere in the show:
Attached Images
File Type: gif sa1.gif
( 442.6 KB, 56 views)
 
File Type: gif sa2.gif
( 393.8 KB, 41 views)
 
File Type: gif sa3.gif
( 446.9 KB, 36 views)
 
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Last edited by Five; 2005-07-23 at 02:25 AM.
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  #3  
Old 2005-07-23, 02:18 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

FA from the downloadable sample:
Attached Images
File Type: gif radio2theme_audacity_fa.gif
( 7.1 KB, 31 views)
 
File Type: gif radio2theme_af_l_fa.gif
( 12.5 KB, 27 views)
 
File Type: gif radio2theme_af_r_fa.gif
( 12.5 KB, 23 views)
 
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  #4  
Old 2005-07-23, 02:23 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

SA from the downloadable sample:
Attached Images
File Type: gif radio2theme_cep_sa.gif
( 426.8 KB, 26 views)
 
File Type: gif radio2theme_eac_sa.gif
( 347.1 KB, 20 views)
 
File Type: gif radio2theme_audacity_sa.gif
( 477.1 KB, 17 views)
 
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  #5  
Old 2005-07-23, 05:25 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
Yesterday I pulled this one:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ead.php?t=9517

The lineage is:
Roberts Tuner>Endirol Soundcard>PC-Goldwave>WAV>Flac

I have no reason to doubt this... the analysis is not pretty. BigBoyPete assures me that the lineage is correct and I have no reason to doubt it. So, what I'm wondering is whether the bbc radio two broadcasts in mp2 and also am looking for some confirmation from others that this source is lossy.
[/url]
BBC Radio Two is available on a multitude of platforms. Just saying "Radio Two" in the source info isn't enough:

1) FM (but I don't know for sure the lineage from studio to the network of local transmitters all over the UK)
2) "DAB" digital radio - currently 128kbps MP2 (but 192kbps a few years ago when DAB launched in the UK).
3) "DVB-S" digital satellite TV - 192kbps MP2
4) "DVB-T" digital terrestrial TV - 192kbps MP2
5) Analogue Cable - you plug an cable from your cable TV company into your analogue FM tuner.
6) Digital Cable - I would guess 192kbps MP2, but I don't know for sure.
7) Web - last time I checked the BBC streamed 44kbps live RealAudio (RA), had archived 32kbps RA and had some sessions archived at 96kbps RA.
8) I think it's now available on XM digital radio in the USA, at least Radio One is - but that won't apply to a 2002 broadcast.

Going back to the torrent in question, the 19KHz FM pilot tone is present, so this would seem to indicate an analogue FM broadcast - meaning either 1) or 5) in the above list.

If the FM feed came from Cable, then we just don't know where the cable company got their Radio Two feed from - but they may well have taken the satellite MP2 broadcast. There was a BBC Radio One torrent on Dime recently where an analysis of a Cable FM recording showed very lossy ancestory, so it seems at least one cable company in the UK does that.

If it was an "over-the-air" FM broadcast, then the lineage between studio and transmitter comes into question.

As far as I know, the BBC use NICAM digital links for their FM broadcasts. The "consumer" version of NICAM is 14-bit/32KHz Stereo PCM audio "lossilly" companded to 10-bit/32KHz Stereo PCM for transmission. I read that the BBC use a better version of NICAM for their FM transmitters, but I don't know the details.

I don't understand SAs very well, so I'm curious to know what makes this "MP2", and not just the lossiness caused by a normal FM broadcast.
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  #6  
Old 2005-07-23, 06:10 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

If i was to record a show from radio 2 via a simple aerial on my stereo and record to cassette would that be considered lossy and untorrentable? I know ripping the stream digitally is definately lossy.
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  #7  
Old 2005-07-23, 06:15 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainysod
If i was to record a show from radio 2 via a simple aerial on my stereo and record to cassette would that be considered lossy and untorrentable?
If the signal is analogue and not lossy anywhere in the chain and you tape it, it would not be lossy and hence completely torrentable. Unless someone else records the same show losslessly digital, then you won't be the best source.

If I'm not mistaken, that is.
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  #8  
Old 2005-07-23, 12:32 PM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4candles
I don't understand SAs very well, so I'm curious to know what makes this "MP2", and not just the lossiness caused by a normal FM broadcast.
thanks very much for all the detailed info... the SA resembles other FM mp2 sources as they appear with the analogue purple haze (heh) from the "over the air" transmission. So mp2 seemed like the most logical guess. I'm looking for a couple more opinions to confirm without a doubt that this is a lossy source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenreven
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainysod
If i was to record a show from radio 2 via a simple aerial on my stereo and record to cassette would that be considered lossy and untorrentable? I know ripping the stream digitally is definately lossy.
If the signal is analogue and not lossy anywhere in the chain and you tape it, it would not be lossy and hence completely torrentable. Unless someone else records the same show losslessly digital, then you won't be the best source.

If I'm not mistaken, that is.
Evenreven, this holds true at most other sites but at TTD lossy sources aren't tolerated no matter how they came to be with only two exceptions: 1) AC3 on a DVD. We prefer WAV audio of course but will accept AC3. If the AC3 is ripped from the DVD it is not allowed to be seeded separately in the audio section. 2) MiniDisc, only when it is the master recorded at the show either sbd/aud/mtx. MD is not allowed to be used to tape broadcasts and also isn't allowed midway thru the lineage.

So the main thrust of this thread is to ask the question is everything coming from the BBC lossy except WWO preFM discs and the like? From what I see here it looks like not only the satellite broadcasts but also the traditional "over the air" broadcasts are lossifiedized at the station and that's a real drag 'cause everyone loves the beeb's content.
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  #9  
Old 2005-07-23, 01:38 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
thanks very much for all the detailed info... the SA resembles other FM mp2 sources as they appear with the analogue purple haze (heh) from the "over the air" transmission. So mp2 seemed like the most logical guess. I'm looking for a couple more opinions to confirm without a doubt that this is a lossy source.
By "FM mp2 source", do you mean an analogue FM broadcast that has been MP2-compressed somewhere before the final transmitter?

Quote:
So the main thrust of this thread is to ask the question is everything coming from the BBC lossy except WWO preFM discs and the like? From what I see here it looks like not only the satellite broadcasts but also the traditional "over the air" broadcasts are lossifiedized at the station and that's a real drag 'cause everyone loves the beeb's content.
It wouldn't surprise me if the BBC, have starting introducing MP2 lineage into FM transmissions. But without actually asking the BBC, I don't think we would know for sure. It would probably also depend on which transmitter you were talking about - I doubt they are all the same.

But don't confuse MP2 with NICAM. They are both lossy, but in completely different ways, and I wouldn't expect the same "signatures" in SAs.

Also, don't think this is limited to the BBC. I would be surprised to find a "pure analogue" FM tranmission in Europe today, especially national radio broadcasters.
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  #10  
Old 2005-07-23, 06:36 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Someone has just posted on Dime a recording of an REM concert broadcast a couple of hours ago on BBC Radio Two.

Lineage is quoted as:

BBC R2 Analogue FM Broadcast -> FM Tuner -> Standalone CDR -> EAC -> FLAC

Torrent is here:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-d...id=52013&hit=1

This should be a perfect example of current BBC Radio Two for those who are interested.
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  #11  
Old 2005-07-24, 02:34 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4candles
By "FM mp2 source", do you mean an analogue FM broadcast that has been MP2-compressed somewhere before the final transmitter?
yeah, that's what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4candles
But don't confuse MP2 with NICAM. They are both lossy, but in completely different ways, and I wouldn't expect the same "signatures" in SAs.
good point, I was guessing mp2, it could well be NICAM. I downloaded that REM show you linked and found some "interesting" results... the sa/fa signatures are quite a bit different than the other show I started this thread about.

here's a ton of screencaps of SA and FA for the REM show:
Attached Images
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_af_l_fa.gif
( 12.6 KB, 23 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_af_r_fa.gif
( 12.2 KB, 20 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_audacity_2sec_sa.gif
( 371.9 KB, 27 views)
 
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  #12  
Old 2005-07-24, 02:42 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

...
Attached Images
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_audacity_fa.gif
( 7.2 KB, 13 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_audacity_sa.gif
( 411.9 KB, 12 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_cep_2sec_sa.gif
( 319.7 KB, 12 views)
 
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  #13  
Old 2005-07-24, 02:44 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

---
Attached Images
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_cep_fa.gif
( 15.1 KB, 12 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_cep_sa.gif
( 358.3 KB, 13 views)
 
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  #14  
Old 2005-07-24, 02:46 AM
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

~~~
Attached Images
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_eac_2sec_sa.gif
( 315.8 KB, 11 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_eac_fa.gif
( 12.7 KB, 7 views)
 
File Type: gif rem2005-07-16t01_eac_sa.gif
( 351.6 KB, 9 views)
 
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  #15  
Old 2005-07-24, 11:04 AM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Radio Two = mp2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
good point, I was guessing mp2, it could well be NICAM. I downloaded that REM show you linked and found some "interesting" results... the sa/fa signatures are quite a bit different than the other show I started this thread about.
Is NICAM considered "lossy" and therefore not allowed to be torrented on TTD? A detailed technical description can be found here:

NICAM

Quote:
here's a ton of screencaps of SA and FA for the REM show:
Hopefully someone will give you a second opinoin on those.
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