The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2004-11-22, 09:20 PM
TheMamba's Avatar
TheMamba TheMamba is offline
I love them redheads!
70.51 GB/140.66 GB/1.99
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Florida
FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

OK....so I have been downloading and listening to shows for a handful of months now and want to start exploring the more technical side of everything that is being discussed here and was discussed at STG....so here goes.

I know very little about FLAC frontend or how to use it properly. Is there a general How To Guide / Manual somewhere that I could read? I have some questions now....and the answers will only spur more questions. If there's a manual out there somewhere, it will at least give me a starting spot...

SHN vs. FLAC....I've read that FLAC seems to be the "better" of the two. For me, it's simply because I have a FLAC plug in for Winamp, I prefer FLAC (I just stumbled across foobar2000 so that may change...). Is it a bad thing for the qualilty of the data to convert from SHN to FLAC? i.e. if I wanted to take all of my SHN shows and convert them to FLAC, would I just be shooting myself in the foot and end up with un-tradable stuff?
If it is acceptable to convert from SHN to FLAC, how should I go about doing this?
I have been using FLAC frontend to test and decode FLAC files (and multi front end for SHN). I'll skip all of the Replaygain, and SBE questions as I saw some of that floating around here and in the FAQ.

The Tag button looks like a gem though. How the hell do I use it though? I have tried putting in values and then decoding to WAV, but it doesn't seem to work. I have an iPod and use iTunes quite a bit (WinXP). When I drag over stuff, I hate having to manually enter in the Artist, Album, etc for shows that I have downloaded.

I just took 4 Tool FLAC files for the hell of it and dragged them into FLAC frontend. Clicked Tag Conf. Auto Detect checked. Filled out Artist, Album, year, etc. Converted to WAV. Open up iTunes to play them and none of the album, artist, etc. shows up in my playlist / library??????

Any help will be much appreciated.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2004-11-22, 09:41 PM
Gizby's Avatar
Gizby Gizby is offline
green and submarine
72.53 GB/89.11 GB/1.23
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMamba
If it is acceptable to convert from SHN to FLAC, how should I go about doing this?
This much I can tell you not to do. While it is not going to damage or alter the audio (at least it shouldn't), it is generally frowned upon and I believe such conversions are not allowed on this site. It also makes for a somewhat confusing lineage, leaving people to guess exactly why someone would do such a thing.
__________________
Audio and video, oh my!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2004-11-23, 07:45 AM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Yes, I can help....you're asking quite a few questions here, and there's a LOT of information that you'll need to understand before moving on. The good thing is that you've already discovered the answer to the question, but likely don't reaize it yet!

The answer, as usual, is foobar2000. It can do direct conversions from SHN > FLAC and also do something called BitVerify, where it will confirm that the FLAC you created is acoustically identical to the SHN file it was sourced from: THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STEP FOR SHN > FLAC CONVERSION!

foobar2000 is also the answer to all your tagging needs as well, but let me discuss that in another post....

As for converting, it is acceptable and encourage to convert SHN to FLAC, as the former is an outdated and obsolete codec. FLAC has numerous advantages, and you can read a little more about the major differences in the FAQ's audio types and descriptions entry:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...#faq_filetypes

Now, foobar2000 is the complete solution to PLAYING your files, but you may not realize that it comes with an enormous amount of plugins that help you do everything else with those files too. First, make sure you've got the Special Installer version 0.8.3 (the most complete and up to date version) from the foobar2000 blogiste.

When you install this program, make sure you include all of the plugins (some may not be useful to you, but they are all fun to play with and learn what options are out there). This will make sure that you have the diskwriter plugin, which will allow you to do direct file conversions.

After that, it's quite simple. Drag a bunch of SHN files into the playlist window, select the, right click, and say "Convert". A window should pop-up asking you what to convert to. Pick FLAC and the compression level (all of them are lossless, but the higher compression values will take more time to perform). It will take several minutes to convert. Afterwards, clear the playlist, and then drag all of the original SHN files and the new FLAC files into the playlist window. Select all of both formats, right click, and say "BitCompare". It will then run through and check that for each SHN file, there FLAC file of the same name is acoustically identical. Assuming everthing went well, it'll report that the files are identical, and you've done it correctly!

Always include in your lineage how you did to the files what you did. The above example would include:

SHN > foobar2000 0.8.3 (convered and bitverified identical) > FLAC


Note: this will NOT look at, change, or correct any sector boundary issues. If you have SBEs that you need to correct, this needs to be done with shntool. If you run a conversion with FLAC Frontend, there IS an option to correct SBEs, but if the files are in the wrong order in the original window, you're going to have screw up the entire set.

OK...I'll make another post for tagging....
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2004-11-23, 07:52 AM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

foobar2000's special installer also includes a plugin called masstagger, which is incredibly useful. First of all, it will know based on the file type you are trying to tage what the best type of file tag to use is (there are APE, Vorbis, id3, and id3v2 tags out there). For FLAC, it will use Vorbis tags.

Again, select a list of files, right click, and run masstagger. Take some time and read through all of the ways you can edit the tags. Then save a script that you'll use often so that you can bring it up every time you want to tag a set. I always batch set Artist, Album, and Date. I then have a input block (it allows one line for each file, sequencially) where I copy/paste the track titles from the info file, and it automatically tags each file with the right song title.

All in all, tagging a set of FLAC files after download takes me a total of 15 seconds with masstagger.

Bottom line: Get foobar2000, get used to it, get over the utilitarian design, and start delving into the many features it has. Make sure you use the ColumnsUI graphical interface, and then go ahead and setup your own formatting scripts. A little bit of time spent learning how to configure this awesome program will be rewarded with years of being far more efficient with your lossless filetrading endeavors....
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2004-11-23, 07:54 AM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

So...you've got about 2-3 hours of stuff to play with here. Don't get frustrated, once you work all this out you'll be very happy with the results. It's not hard, it just takes some time to get used to it all.

If you need any further help with foobar2000, PM me or make a new thread and someone will give you a hand.
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2004-11-23, 12:26 PM
TheMamba's Avatar
TheMamba TheMamba is offline
I love them redheads!
70.51 GB/140.66 GB/1.99
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Florida
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

RainDawg,

Thanks a lot for enlightening me a little bit. This should give me plenty to chew on for the next couple of days.

If I run into any questions, will definitely take you up on the PM / new post offer.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2004-11-23, 12:51 PM
Greengoat's Avatar
Greengoat Greengoat is offline
Mr. Yummy
25.44 GB/36.65 GB/1.44
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: In the Yesterday
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm also works for converting various formats. If you get the powerpack you can edit tags. I don't since I never have enough time to enter all the tag info by hand.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2004-11-23, 01:07 PM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Goat,
I used dbPowerAmp for a while, but had some strange things happen to files that I couldn't explain. I can't say for sure that what was the culprit, but I found some files that had short sections of the end cut off (fractions of a second) so that the tracks didn't flow seamlessly.

I also did some direct SHN > FLAC conversions where a large spike was inserted at the beginning of each of the FLAC files, cause a loud and obnoxious click at the track transition....these flaws would have cause the files to fail a bitverification, btu dbPowerAmp doesn't have that feature.

I don't recommend this program, and if you do use it, I'd offer the opinion that you should use foobar or shntool and do a bitverification (or comparison for shntool) to ensure that your files are indeed acoustically identical. I runined a few sets by not doing so, and regret it now....
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #9  
Old 2004-11-23, 03:07 PM
Gizby's Avatar
Gizby Gizby is offline
green and submarine
72.53 GB/89.11 GB/1.23
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Well then, disregard what I said above. I clearly have no idea what I am talking about anymore.
__________________
Audio and video, oh my!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #10  
Old 2004-11-23, 03:22 PM
dorrcoq's Avatar
dorrcoq dorrcoq is offline
Champion of the Silent
TTD VIP
540.73 GB/1.22 TB/2.30
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

does foobar2000 support APE files, and SHN or FLAC > APE conversions?
__________________
how can I obey the rule about no sexually explicit posts after seeing Lynne's back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider
I think Gray has all these grand plans and I'm sorry to bring it up when it came down to it he couldn't even sell t-shirts without fucking it up.

"please mind your own fucking business, you Looney cocksucker" - Freezer, 7/12/06
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #11  
Old 2004-11-23, 04:20 PM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorrcoq
does foobar2000 support APE files, and SHN or FLAC > APE conversions?
Yup...interestingly enough, it allows SHN > FLAC, SHN > APE, but does include an SHN encoder with the Special Installer. So, you can convert from SHN to anything, but not back into SHN without installing an outside plugin. Methinks someone has wised up to the fact that SHN is an outdated codec, and is gently prodding people into looking at other options.

Another nice option is that it can take your FLAC or APE files and compress them to MP3 or OGG...I used this for storing favorite shows on my hard drive so I don't have to dig through DVDs to get at them. Transfers the tags over from the original FLAC/APE/SHN as well, so no typing is needed.
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.

Last edited by RainDawg; 2004-11-23 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #12  
Old 2004-11-23, 04:24 PM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizby
This much I can tell you not to do. While it is not going to damage or alter the audio (at least it shouldn't), it is generally frowned upon and I believe such conversions are not allowed on this site. It also makes for a somewhat confusing lineage, leaving people to guess exactly why someone would do such a thing.
This site is concerned with maintaining audio integrity, not with maintain large archives of outdated codecs. The belief that people can learn to convert to the more useful FLAC format and doublecheck their work is something new in the trading commuity, and an ideal we wanted to base our site on. There are some people who would have liked to make this an all-FLAC site, but a degree of prudence prevailed and we decided to simply suggest it, but not make it mandatory.

In order to keep things verifiable, we have also asked that all seeds contain shntool md5s and/or FLAC fingerprints (identical) so that the checksum becomes format-independant. Once there is a fingerprint of the audio archived, anyone can convert to any current or future lossless codec, and the fingerprint will remain identical.

Yes...we're looking towards the future and trying not to get stuck in the past....
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #13  
Old 2004-11-23, 05:01 PM
Gizby's Avatar
Gizby Gizby is offline
green and submarine
72.53 GB/89.11 GB/1.23
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Sorry for offering the premature advice. I've just been used to the idea of keeping shows in their original formats. But I'm glad that we are all fortunate enough to be on such a progressive site with people knowledgable and helpful enough to maintain such a level of quality. I certainly wouldn't have heard anywhere else about using the shntool checksum in place of others. And I never was a big fan of SHNs.

Also, thanks for the foobar reference. It's the first media player I've used (besides EAC) that has gapless CD playback.
__________________
Audio and video, oh my!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #14  
Old 2004-11-23, 05:32 PM
Greengoat's Avatar
Greengoat Greengoat is offline
Mr. Yummy
25.44 GB/36.65 GB/1.44
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: In the Yesterday
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Never tried winamp and playing a cd in gapless. It works with files when they are enqueued using the gapless option.

I've never heard anyproblems on any of the cds I listen to, and I use db to convert everything except mkw files. I've converted almost exclusively with it over the past two years(yep, even in the mp3 days) and never had a problem. All the lossless concerts that I've converted, burned to disc, sounded just fine.

I'll decode a file that came with a wav md5 checksum. I realize this is not the audio, but it's a start.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #15  
Old 2004-11-23, 06:06 PM
Greengoat's Avatar
Greengoat Greengoat is offline
Mr. Yummy
25.44 GB/36.65 GB/1.44
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: In the Yesterday
Re: FLAC, SHN, Conversions, etc...A virtual potpourri

Just double checked one show.

Steve Earle
2001-06-13
"The Connection"
WBUR Studios
Boston, Massachusetts

Originally broadcast on NPR


Lineage: FM > ? > CDR > EAC > Wav > FLAC-Level 8


Personnel:

Jackie Lyden: Host
Steve Earle: Guest



Size: 118MB



Running Time: 47:51



Notes:

This is a single track wav. The interview features Steve Earle reading passages from his book of short stories titled "Doghouse Roses", discussing songwriting, activism, the death penalty, taking phone calls and answering questions from listeners. All in all this is an excellent addition to any Earle fan's collection.

The following text was taken from http://archives.theconnection.org/ar...06/0613b.shtml

--------------------------------------------------

It came with a wav md5, I ran it and it cleared 100%. Next it came with an shntool file, the numbers matched up exactly. This is the shtool text that came with the show.

length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
47:52.34 506700812 --- -- ----- se2001-06-13npr.wav
47:52.34 506700812 B (total for 1 file, 1.0000 overall compression ratio)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Next I will attempt to convert back to audio and run the md5 and check the flac finger prints(ffp)....
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
SHN > FLAC conversions with foobar2000 0.8.3 - TheMamba Technobabble 4 2004-11-28 10:44 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts