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Site Announcements & Suggestions This is where you should make your suggestions to us on how to improve your experience here and where to post about site problems/issues.

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Old 2009-03-04, 04:56 PM
katnapz's Avatar
katnapz katnapz is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
"Audio BitTorrent Seeding Guide/Policy" Addition Suggestion

Long story short: This torrent:
was posted here at TTD. The poster obtained it from usenet. He modified it (track cuts) and FLAC'd it from it's original SHNs (WAV conversion in between). Then when he posted the torrent he didn't post the original checksums from the SHN's. After doing some comparisons on my end, and asking if there had been checksums with the original SHNs he noted that there had been and these matched the one's I presented to him.

I believe that due to the "long toothed" nature of digital media...that "conversions" such as in this Billy Joel torrent will become more common over time.

My reference to this particular torrent isn't a poke at the torrent poster, however as you can see from the dialog between us it probably would've been easier to track down the digital history of this version of this show by checksum comparison than by comparing them in Cool Edit as he suggested.

Point 1: Some are going to (and are already) view the SHN file format as old school or not modern enough, so they will convert to FLAC "just because" or "it saves upload/download time as it's smaller in FLAC."
Although I can't point out by URL here or on other sites this happening off the top of my head, I do know that I have seen torrents where a poster has stated as much.

Point 2: Someone who "remasters" a show who's original format was SHN, will more than likely change their output to FLAC. And when remastering (or even simply converting) people have a tendency to rename the individual tracks which adds to confusion. Plus the original checksums are no longer valid even if converted back to SHN (or whatever format). This holds true for FLAC to FLAC remasters as well.

Point 3: In either of these cases, the lineage up to the point of conversion is lost. At the most the poster will comment something about "I took this show posted by "X" and remastered it." This has the potential to add confusion to the trading pool...without a way to compare to the original file format (SHN) using checksum files (i.e., md5s) you could have the exact same show floating around in different formats.

Recommendation 1: So, keeping this in mind, I would like to submit a request that in the "Audio BitTorrent Seeding Guide," ( at around step 4 a comment be included that if a show has been converted from a different lossless format, that the old previously existing checksums be included within the info file. Further/in addition, at step 6 the recommendation be that the old checksum file be included for historical tracking purposes.

Recommendation 2: And in the "Audio BitTorrent Seeding Policy" ( around step 9, a statement that any checksums previously associated with the show be included in the info file. Also in step 10 that previously existing checksums be included in the torrent.

Personally I'd recommend both requiring embedding in the info file, and as a separate file when a torrent is posted - there's less chance of the info file being jettisoned by uncaring traders as a "what the? I don't need this," than an uncaring trader going into the info file and purposely deleting text within it.

Thanks for reading and any suggestions/inputs. Hope this makes sense....ask if not so I can clarify.
...Catnip is my middle name...
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Old 2009-03-05, 12:05 AM
U2Lynne's Avatar
U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
TTD Staff
469.38 GB/2.01 TB/4.39
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Re: "Audio BitTorrent Seeding Guide/Policy" Addition Suggestion

I do think it's a good idea to include all 'old' files with a torrent. I don't know that I would encourage users to actually change the text file - some tapers don't like that - so I usually think it's better to copy it and append "updated" or something to the new one and put the old md5s in there along with the new fingerprints/st5s.

The big problem here isn't so much updating the FAQ, but getting users to understand the need to keep all the information about a show with the show. That's really what this is about. Not all users care about all of that and so they trash it or just don't bother to include it thinking no one cares, not realizing that this site *does* care about all the history and lineage behind a show.
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Old 2009-03-05, 04:02 PM
katnapz's Avatar
katnapz katnapz is offline
What'cha Got There?
208.73 GB/1.99 TB/9.77
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: "Audio BitTorrent Seeding Guide/Policy" Addition Suggestion

There might be a point you're missing in regards to the text file though Lynne. When a person modifies a show's original format, the old text file goes out the window much of the time and the person creates a new text file (or modifies the original anyways). Since a new text file is being created anyways, might as well have the old checksum details included in the new info. If this were a perfect world the old info file would be copied and used to form the basis of a new, with the updated info added as to what the person modified. At that point they could also paste the checksum in.
In the end, when they do these mods, they are creating a new "lifeform" of a show. The DNA (text file/checksums) from the old don't apply other then informing someone of the lineage.
All in all, it's just a suggestion from me to highlight these points in the FAQs or where else on the site a person looks to for guidance. Some people are sloppy traders by choice and some by lack of information. We could help guide them.
Thanks for listening to me.
...Catnip is my middle name...
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Old 2009-03-05, 04:15 PM
direwolf-pgh's Avatar
direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
On the Beach
666.18 GB/1.29 TB/1.99
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: down in the basement
Re: "Audio BitTorrent Seeding Guide/Policy" Addition Suggestion

hi katnapz I feel your pain - but honestly its mostly a lost cause.

solution: if you see a tainted torrent - seed out the original source.

in fact, I'd like to see the 'original source' of that Billy Joel set (the one mentioned in the first post).
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