SBE Explanation

[pmonk]

I recently wanted to hear a file (in flac) on Foobar that I download last year, and when I loaded it into Foobar it was bright red (thanks Five).

So, I ran Shntool and got this:

length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.03 82209184 -b- -- ---xx Rock and roll/Celebration Day.flac
5:38.04 59632592 -b- -- ---xx Black dog.flac
6:24.65 67889468 -b- -- ---xx Over the hills and far away.flac
7:08.29 75566600 -b- -- ---xx Misty Moountain hop.flac
8:10.40 86530876 -b- -- ---xx Since ive been loving you.flac
14:11.25 150175668 -b- -- ---xx No quarter.flac
9:29.14 100405684 -b- -- ---xx Song remains the same the rain song.flac
27:12.25 287944152 -b- -- ---xx Dazed And Confused.flac
11:28.05 121374772 -b- -- ---xx Stairway to Heaven.flac
13:23.17 141689032 -b- -- ---xx Moby Dick.flac
7:53.70 83602844 -b- -- ---xx Heartbreaker.flac
7:04.01 74796612 -b- -- ---xx Whole Lotta Love.flac
5:03.16 53488048 -b- -- ---xx The Ocean.flac
130:53.15 1321.13 MB (totals for 13 files, 0.5389 overall compression ratio)

So I used shntool fix option and I got this:

E:\Music Downloads\Led Zeppelin\1973\1973.07.21 Providence, Rhode Island\Fixed>shntool len *.wav
length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.02 82207148 --- -- ----- Rock and roll - Celebration Day-fixed.wav
5:38.04 59632652 --- -- ----- Black dog-fixed.wav
6:24.65 67890524 --- -- ----- Over the hills and far away-fixed.wav
7:08.29 75567452 --- -- ----- Misty Mountain hop-fixed.wav
8:10.40 86530124 --- -- ----- Since ive been loving you-fixed.wav
14:11.25 150175244 --- -- ----- No quarter-fixed.wav
9:29.15 100406924 --- -- ----- Song remains the same the rain song-fixed.wav
27:12.25 287943644 --- -- ----- Dazed And Confused-fixed.wav
11:28.05 121375004 --- -- ----- Stairway to Heaven-fixed.wav
13:23.17 141689228 --- -- ----- Moby Dick-fixed.wav
7:53.70 83601884 --- -- ----- Heartbreaker-fixed.wav
7:04.01 74795996 --- -- ----- Whole Lotta Love-fixed.wav
5:03.18 53491580 --- -- ----- The Ocean-fixed.wav
130:53.16 1385307404 B (totals for 13 files, 1.0000 overall compression ratio)

I then decided to decompress the flac files with teh SBE's to wav using flacfrontend and the the recompress with align on sector bounderies and I got this:

length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.02 82207148 --- -- ---xx Rock and roll - Celebration Day.flac
5:38.04 59632652 --- -- ---xx Black dog.flac
6:24.65 67890524 --- -- ---xx Over the hills and far away.flac
7:08.29 75567452 --- -- ---xx Misty Moountain hop.flac
8:10.40 86530124 --- -- ---xx Since ive been loving you.flac
14:11.25 150175244 --- -- ---xx No quarter.flac
9:29.16 100409276 --- -- ---xx Song remains the same the rain song.flac
27:12.25 287943644 --- -- ---xx Dazed And Confused.flac
11:28.05 121375004 --- -- ---xx Stairway to Heaven.flac
13:23.17 141689228 --- -- ---xx Moby Dick.flac
7:53.70 83601884 --- -- ---xx Heartbreaker.flac
7:04.01 74795996 --- -- ---xx Whole Lotta Love.flac
5:03.18 53491580 --- -- ---xx The Ocean.flac
130:53.17 1321.13 MB (totals for 13 files, 0.5395 overall compression ratio)


To make a long story short, is this what happens when you convert a .wav file to flac without --sector-align option?????

[Five]

the foobar2000 SBE detection code credit has to go to ssamadhi97... perhaps I just gave you the link for it over at r-o.

Originally Posted by pmonk66

To make a long story short, is this what happens when you convert a .wav file to flac without --sector-align option?????

if there's no SBEs, then yes. am I understanding your short long story correctly here?

[farmstar]

where can i get the SBE detection code for foobar2000?
it would be very useful as i am sure everyone who uses foobar would agree.
And i find it interesting that compressing to flac without a SBE argument would cause SBEs, does it appear to be a common occurance? I will have to pay with that a bit.

[Five]

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ead.php?t=1112

scroll way down and find ssamadhi97's post about detecting SBEs with foobar2000.

[feralicious]

Originally Posted by pmonk66

I recently wanted to hear a file (in flac) on Foobar that I download last year, and when I loaded it into Foobar it was bright red (thanks Five).

So, I ran Shntool and got this:

length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.03 82209184 -b- -- ---xx Rock and roll/Celebration Day.flac
5:38.04 59632592 -b- -- ---xx Black dog.flac
6:24.65 67889468 -b- -- ---xx Over the hills and far away.flac
7:08.29 75566600 -b- -- ---xx Misty Moountain hop.flac
8:10.40 86530876 -b- -- ---xx Since ive been loving you.flac
14:11.25 150175668 -b- -- ---xx No quarter.flac
9:29.14 100405684 -b- -- ---xx Song remains the same the rain song.flac
27:12.25 287944152 -b- -- ---xx Dazed And Confused.flac
11:28.05 121374772 -b- -- ---xx Stairway to Heaven.flac
13:23.17 141689032 -b- -- ---xx Moby Dick.flac
7:53.70 83602844 -b- -- ---xx Heartbreaker.flac
7:04.01 74796612 -b- -- ---xx Whole Lotta Love.flac
5:03.16 53488048 -b- -- ---xx The Ocean.flac
130:53.15 1321.13 MB (totals for 13 files, 0.5389 overall compression ratio)

So I used shntool fix option and I got this:

E:\Music Downloads\Led Zeppelin\1973\1973.07.21 Providence, Rhode Island\Fixed>shntool len *.wav
length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.02 82207148 --- -- ----- Rock and roll - Celebration Day-fixed.wav
5:38.04 59632652 --- -- ----- Black dog-fixed.wav
6:24.65 67890524 --- -- ----- Over the hills and far away-fixed.wav
7:08.29 75567452 --- -- ----- Misty Mountain hop-fixed.wav
8:10.40 86530124 --- -- ----- Since ive been loving you-fixed.wav
14:11.25 150175244 --- -- ----- No quarter-fixed.wav
9:29.15 100406924 --- -- ----- Song remains the same the rain song-fixed.wav
27:12.25 287943644 --- -- ----- Dazed And Confused-fixed.wav
11:28.05 121375004 --- -- ----- Stairway to Heaven-fixed.wav
13:23.17 141689228 --- -- ----- Moby Dick-fixed.wav
7:53.70 83601884 --- -- ----- Heartbreaker-fixed.wav
7:04.01 74795996 --- -- ----- Whole Lotta Love-fixed.wav
5:03.18 53491580 --- -- ----- The Ocean-fixed.wav
130:53.16 1385307404 B (totals for 13 files, 1.0000 overall compression ratio)

I then decided to decompress the flac files with teh SBE's to wav using flacfrontend and the the recompress with align on sector bounderies and I got this:

length expanded size cdr WAVE problems filename
7:46.02 82207148 --- -- ---xx Rock and roll - Celebration Day.flac
5:38.04 59632652 --- -- ---xx Black dog.flac
6:24.65 67890524 --- -- ---xx Over the hills and far away.flac
7:08.29 75567452 --- -- ---xx Misty Moountain hop.flac
8:10.40 86530124 --- -- ---xx Since ive been loving you.flac
14:11.25 150175244 --- -- ---xx No quarter.flac
9:29.16 100409276 --- -- ---xx Song remains the same the rain song.flac
27:12.25 287943644 --- -- ---xx Dazed And Confused.flac
11:28.05 121375004 --- -- ---xx Stairway to Heaven.flac
13:23.17 141689228 --- -- ---xx Moby Dick.flac
7:53.70 83601884 --- -- ---xx Heartbreaker.flac
7:04.01 74795996 --- -- ---xx Whole Lotta Love.flac
5:03.18 53491580 --- -- ---xx The Ocean.flac
130:53.17 1321.13 MB (totals for 13 files, 0.5395 overall compression ratio)


To make a long story short, is this what happens when you convert a .wav file to flac without --sector-align option?????

I don't know if the SBE's would occur as a result of encoding without the "align on sector boundaries" option checked. I think that was your question.

When you decoded the flacs, did the wavs have SBEs also?

Also keep in mind, there was a post somewhere where it was stated (probably by uhclem) that decoding SBE tracks to wav and then re-encoding them to flac using align on sector boundaries isn't the correct way to fix files. I think it's because it pads each individual track on its own rather than sliding stuff to the preceding/following tracks, thus introducing some extra silences. I'll see if I can find the thread. It's only okay to fix this way if there's only an SBE on the last track. I get the feeling that you only did this as an experiment though anyway, and that you fix using shntool.

[pmonk]

Originally Posted by feralicious

I get the feeling that you only did this as an experiment though anyway, and that you fix using shntool.

That is a correct feeling!

[Five]

Originally Posted by feralicious

I think it's because it pads each individual track on its own rather than sliding stuff to the preceding/following tracks, thus introducing some extra silences. I'll see if I can find the thread. It's only okay to fix this way if there's only an SBE on the last track.

It only adds silence to the end of the last track!

If there's a silent break in your show due to the band playing multiple sets and you need to correct SBEs, the important thing is not to carry over a little fragment from the beginning of the following set to the previous. If it's a continuous show beginning to end with SBEs then it's fine to just correct all the SBEs at once and pad the last track with silence.

Originally Posted by farmstar

And i find it interesting that compressing to flac without a SBE argument would cause SBEs, does it appear to be a common occurance? I will have to pay with that a bit.

What?

Flac.exe doesn't 'cause' SBEs. SBEs are already present in the wave files. When you compress wave files that have SBEs and you don't use the sector align feature of flac.exe, then obviously the flac files you produce will contain SBEs.

Similarly, if the wave files you compress don't have SBEs in them, then your flac files won't have SBEs either, regardless of whether you use the flac sector align feature.

I think that's pretty straight forward.

[pmonk]

Originally Posted by uhclem

What?

Flac.exe doesn't 'cause' SBEs. SBEs are already present in the wave files. When you compress wave files that have SBEs and you don't use the sector align feature of flac.exe, then obviously the flac files you produce will contain SBEs.

Similarly, if the wave files you compress don't have SBEs in them, then your flac files won't have SBEs either, regardless of whether you use the flac sector align feature.

I think that's pretty straight forward.

So - in answering my question if the original .wav files have the sbe's and when you convert to flac without the --sector-align option, the frontend will not (in a sense) fix the sbe's????.

Originally Posted by pmonk66

So - in answering my question if the original .wav files have the sbe's and when you convert to flac without the --sector-align option, the frontend will not (in a sense) fix the sbe's????.

That's right. That's the whole point of the sector align option. If you turn the sector align option off then flac.exe will pay no attention to whether there are SBEs in the wave files and will just compress them as-is.

[pmonk]

Why would anyone not have that --sector align option when converting .wav to flac

Also, looking at how the sizes of both the fixed and recoding using the --sector align option are identical, feralicious' comment that that decoding SBE tracks to wav and then re-encoding them to flac using align on sector boundaries isn't the correct way to fix files is incorrect

[feralicious]

Originally Posted by Five

It only adds silence to the end of the last track!

If there's a silent break in your show due to the band playing multiple sets and you need to correct SBEs, the important thing is not to carry over a little fragment from the beginning of the following set to the previous. If it's a continuous show beginning to end with SBEs then it's fine to just correct all the SBEs at once and pad the last track with silence.

Maybe I didn't make what I was saying clear, because I have a feeling you misunderstood me.

What I was saying is that you shouldn't fix SBEs by decoding the tracks to wav then re-encoding them using align on sector boundaries using flac.exe. And I'm pretty sure that that will pad each track. What you described sounds like a proper shntool fix. Here's the thread that I gleaned this from...
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...004#post121004

In any case, I've definitely gotten the impression that it's not the proper way to fix SBEs. I think that's agreed upon, because you're putting in flawed wavs. I would bet that the new wavs decoded from the newly created flac files wouldn't match the original ones.

Dammit Jamie, now I'm off to do another experiment. I have work to do!!!

[pmonk]

You love it you big geek!

[feralicious]

Originally Posted by pmonk66

You love it you big geek!

Okay the results just arrived from the laboratory...

I found a show with 5 tracks, all of which had SBEs. I put them through this process:
orig flacs > orig wavs > new flacs (Flac Frontend w/align on sector boundaries) > new wavs

the new flacs and new wavs had no SBEs, however, as I suspected, the wav st5s did not match.

orig wav st5:

19cfee35f5199301bb106b88e686151c [shntool] 01 - Bat Out Of Hell.wav
ea862458bbea2dd92ace10ec2598559a [shntool] 02 - You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth.wav
48b262eea4aa3aa9de24a1a90067a9cb [shntool] 03 - Two Out Of Three Aint Bad.wav
4b14d83099cd7aa7f9f8eceadeea1aa2 [shntool] 04 - Paradise By The Dashboard Light.wav
29269c1ac050f62c70b83ae668499193 [shntool] 05 - All Revved Up With No Place To Go.wav


new wav st5:

7eb915688351c117c1ef959ec645dc51 [shntool] new-01 - Bat Out Of Hell.wav
07bb06a56df4308b6e0979170bba5d04 [shntool] new-02 - You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth.wav
ab9771962b98789162ea4055df52fc9a [shntool] new-03 - Two Out Of Three Aint Bad.wav
9b807f229c9c172034a814fc30085a93 [shntool] new-04 - Paradise By The Dashboard Light.wav
5fab678dc8270ee255c8ad540c7359ac [shntool] new-05 - All Revved Up With No Place To Go.wav

Oh geez... now I just realized that my reasoning powers may be off. Because if you fix in shntool from flac > flac you are going to have different wavs. But that's from doing a fix, not from encoding. It seems to me that if you encode a file from wav to flac when you decode it it should match the wav that was the input file for the encode. But maybe it is doing a proper fix. Hell, maybe this whole post doesn't mean a damn thing and the experiment was useless.

WELL I DID THE WORK AND I'M PUTTING IN FOR THE CREDIT DAMMIT!!!

I need to go back to bed.

Originally Posted by pmonk66

Why would anyone not have that --sector align option when converting .wav to flac

Because if you already have sector aligned wave files you don't need the sector align option.