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  #1  
Old 2008-05-14, 04:34 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re-encoded digital video

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I hope you'll bear with me.

I'm wondering whether TTD should ban re-encoded digital video (at least for recent broadcasts). Take a look at this torrent:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=58350

Looks like a great show, right? But then take a look at this comment:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...3&postcount=13

In other words, this was a digital broadcast that consisted of 2.5GB of data. The person who posted this version of it re-encoded it and bloated it up to 4.25GB of data while reducing the video quality (by re-encoding it). The audio has also been bloated up to LPCM when it certainly wasn't transmitted that way to begin with.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'd rather download a 2.5GB version of a show with better-quality video, than a 4.25GB version with poorer-quality video. For people who are on slower connections (e.g. DSL, which I was using until very recently), this is extremely important.

Now I'm not, in general, a "tech-spec queen". I like to download a show and enjoy it for the pleasure the music gives me.

But there's no denying that better-quality video will usually yield more enjoyment. And TTD is a torrent site that's dedicated to only torrenting the highest-quality versions of each show. You know, "Quality is not an option in the seeds here, it will be the standard."

So it seems to me, that it's time to make a new standard. If it's being transmitted digitally, you need to capture it digitally, without re-encoding it (i.e. DVB-S or DVB-T), or don't torrent it here. Obviously there would need to be some sort of cut-off date, with old transmissions grandfathered.

What do you all think?
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  #2  
Old 2008-05-14, 06:30 PM
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schmoe75 schmoe75 is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

The video wasn't re-encoded. The audio was converted from AC3 to LPCM which accounts for the 'bloated' size. AC3 audio converted to LPCM, though accomplishes nothing since its lossy sourced, is not a problem as long as the video isn't re-encoded.
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  #3  
Old 2008-05-14, 09:52 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

According to these links:

http://www.unbeatable.co.uk/product/.../22398906.html

http://www.epinions.com/Thomson_DTH8000_DVD

The only inputs on the Thomson DTH8000 are S-Video and composite. So that means the video was converted to analog by the satellite box and then converted back to digital by the DVD recorder.

Also, note that the difference in size between the two versions is 1.75GB. PCM audio is about 10MB per minute, so even if the original version had no audio track at all, adding 96 minutes of LPCM audio wouldn't have increased the size by more than a gig.

More to the point, even if this one particular video were not, in fact, re-encoded, there are certainly others out there which are. I'm no expert, but I can't imagine that consumer-grade standalone dvd recorders are set up to make perfect digital clones of broadcast material.

It seems to me that for a site that's committed to the highest possible quality, sooner or later you're going to want to ban such recordings (for new broadcasts), the same way you've banned new minidisc recordings.
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  #4  
Old 2008-05-14, 10:26 PM
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

scratchie, as usual you make a compelling case. How do you do it?
vlad (itchie)
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  #5  
Old 2008-05-14, 10:33 PM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by vladsmythe View Post
scratchie, as usual you make a compelling case. How do you do it?
Clean living.
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  #6  
Old 2008-05-15, 05:37 AM
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pawel pawel is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75 View Post
The video wasn't re-encoded.
Schmoe, all standalone recorders re-encode video according to setting: XP, SP, LP etc. You can get not re-encoded video only via a PVR and DVB (S/T/C) PC card. Standalone re-encodes audio as well to AC3 or LPCM at higher quality setting.

Taking the example given by Scratchie: BR-alpha bitrate is no higher than 3500 kbps average, while from standalone it's over 8000 kbps.

Last edited by pawel; 2008-05-15 at 05:44 AM.
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  #7  
Old 2008-05-15, 08:12 AM
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schmoe75 schmoe75 is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

I've advocated banning standalone transfers from the site all together, but there aren't enough staff members who agree with me so its not going to happen anytime soon.
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  #8  
Old 2008-05-15, 08:48 AM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75 View Post
I've advocated banning standalone transfers from the site all together, but there aren't enough staff members who agree with me so its not going to happen anytime soon.
I don't think a solution that extreme would be necessary. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff lurking people's shoeboxes on VHS that could be transferred via standalone and shared.

But for current digital transmissions, I don't think it would be too outrageous to require a pure-digital capture. I suspect that a lot of people with standalone burners don't realize that they're doing the equivalent of MP3 -> audio CD -> MP3, and would be happy to let someone with better equipment capture any given show (or upgrade their own equipment, if that's an option).
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  #9  
Old 2008-05-15, 09:01 AM
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75 View Post
The video wasn't re-encoded.
Schmoe, all standalone recorders re-encode video according to setting: XP, SP, LP etc. You can get not re-encoded video only via a PVR and DVB (S/T/C) PC card. Standalone re-encodes audio as well to AC3 or LPCM at higher quality setting.

Taking the example given by Scratchie: BR-alpha bitrate is no higher than 3500 kbps average, while from standalone it's over 8000 kbps.
that's right pawel
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  #10  
Old 2008-05-15, 09:12 AM
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmoe75 View Post
I've advocated banning standalone transfers from the site all together, but there aren't enough staff members who agree with me so its not going to happen anytime soon.
I don't think a solution that extreme would be necessary. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff lurking people's shoeboxes on VHS that could be transferred via standalone and shared.

But for current digital transmissions, I don't think it would be too outrageous to require a pure-digital capture. I suspect that a lot of people with standalone burners don't realize that they're doing the equivalent of MP3 -> audio CD -> MP3, and would be happy to let someone with better equipment capture any given show (or upgrade their own equipment, if that's an option).
Every video from the Graceful Duck Archive is captured with a standalone at the highest bitrate possible. Let's not let the desires of one advocate stop the flow of quality content that benefits those who enjoy it. The Graceful Duck Archive - "More than a collection...a way of life."
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  #11  
Old 2008-05-15, 09:16 AM
scratchie scratchie is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by vladsmythe View Post
Every video from the Graceful Duck Archive is captured with a standalone at the highest bitrate possible. Let's not let the desires of one advocate stop the flow of quality content that benefits those who enjoy it. The Graceful Duck Archive - "More than a collection...a way of life."
Yeah, exactly. I don't think it makes any sense to ban standalones altogether, just for current digitally-broadcast content.
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  #12  
Old 2008-05-15, 09:21 AM
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vladsmythe vladsmythe is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

The title (and premise) of this thread is "Re-encoded digital video", not "Digitized historical analogue beta video".
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  #13  
Old 2008-05-15, 11:59 AM
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schmoe75 schmoe75 is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchie
I don't think a solution that extreme would be necessary. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff lurking people's shoeboxes on VHS that could be transferred via standalone and shared.
So its ok to transfer analog the worst way possible but not acceptable for digital? That makes perfect sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladsmythe
Let's not let the desires of one advocate stop the flow of quality content that benefits those who enjoy it.
Apparently reading is something else you have trouble with. I'm not the only advocate.
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  #14  
Old 2008-05-15, 12:09 PM
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vladsmythe vladsmythe is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

schmoe, I'm not going to address this any further until you clean up your language and proceed in a civil manner suited to The Traders Den community.
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  #15  
Old 2008-05-15, 12:25 PM
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direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
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Re: Re-encoded digital video

tell him how it is vlad. standalone recorders rock
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