The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?
 

Notices

Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2005-03-28, 06:17 PM
mailleon's Avatar
mailleon mailleon is offline
189.18 GB/222.43 GB/1.18
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Well.....another is this Mp3?

Now this is Dylan Paris first night 4.29.02. I just dloaded it from ezt thinking I was getting an upgrade. The one I already had just sounds better to me(I have no lineage for it) I tried analfreq for first time. Can ya'll tell me what you think? Thanks for any and all help.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg suspectdylantrk1.JPG
( 30.0 KB, 66 views)
 
File Type: jpg mydylantrkthatIthinkisgood.JPG
( 29.9 KB, 57 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2005-03-28, 06:28 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
923.61 MB/96.22 MB/0.10
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

See... I don't want to be rude, so excuse my being blunt. I really don't think that Technobabble is meant to hold endless upon endless requests for frequency analysis. There are a number of threads devoted to the fine points. Five has gathered them HERE: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ead.php?t=4288

It would be really cool if everyone could AT A MINIMUM, make an effort to determine what they have to start. If you get stuck, or have no clue at all after reading the educational material TTD offers... then I think that you'll find a bunch of help and opinions here.

You've posted 2 Frequency Response curves that tell someone very little about the audio content. You need to analyze the waveform in SPECTRAL ANALYSIS view in order to see the effects of lossy coding. Again.. check out Five's consolidated thread, and then report on the SPECTRAL's that you post.

Thanks...
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2005-03-28, 06:32 PM
mailleon's Avatar
mailleon mailleon is offline
189.18 GB/222.43 GB/1.18
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Thanks. I think I'll just go and actually listen to them and stop really giving a fuck about it. If it doesn't sound good I'll just turn it off. For fucks sake.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2005-03-28, 06:52 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
923.61 MB/96.22 MB/0.10
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

No, you need to do it correctly, and post Spectral Views of the audio. Otherwise, it's impossible to tell you ANYTHING.

I'm just trying to TEACH you how to do it, so you will know how to do it yourself.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2005-03-28, 07:15 PM
mailleon's Avatar
mailleon mailleon is offline
189.18 GB/222.43 GB/1.18
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

How is this.......used EAC. And I really do read this joint like the newspaper everyday. I try to keep up and actually learn this stuff. Thanks for the input. Oh, and I think trk 1 bad.........trk 2 good. I just want a second opinion.
Attached Images
File Type: gif suspectdylantrk1.GIF
( 199.1 KB, 36 views)
 
File Type: gif FreqSuspectDylantrk1.GIF
( 128.7 KB, 38 views)
 
File Type: gif freqandspecofdylantrk2.GIF
( 151.2 KB, 30 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2005-03-28, 07:34 PM
ffooky ffooky is offline
14.55 GB/14.61 GB/1.00
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Probably a red herring but the mountain centered around 15 kHz on FreqSuspectDylantrk1.GIF is not dissimilar to the effect of lower bitrate AAC.
__________________
Two tracks for a desert island:

Black Keys - I Got Mine
Tintern Abbey - Vacuum Cleaner
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2005-03-28, 08:12 PM
New Homebrew
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Don't hesitate to post your spectral/frequency things here. I think you'll find someone who's willing to have a look. It always helps to get several opinions.

These look lossy:
suspectdylantrk1.GIF
FreqSuspectDylantrk1.GIF

When I see black above 16kHz like that, and high levels beneath it, I don't feel comfortable if you know what I mean.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2005-03-28, 08:15 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
923.61 MB/96.22 MB/0.10
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

The Spectral's that you posted are very low resolution images, and it's not possible to see the detail of the color display. There are distinct patterns that certain lossy codecs introduce that you can easily identify. Can you try to produce a 2 second spectral view of your audio and check your screen capture settings to insure that you're ouputting a decent resolution image ?

I'd certainly agree that track 2 looks OK at first glance. There's no logical reason that the frequency response of track 1 would display like that without some sort of lossy lineage. I would hope a better seed of that material exists.

Again, a 2 second sample at higher res image would be better for everyone (yourself included) to see any holes and other tell tale signs.

Thanks.

PS... I didn't want you to take the criticism personally.. I'm just trying to encourage everyone who has the ability to understand the technical aspects, to read the materials and learn for themselves. Believe me, I'm learning stuff here all the time. There's lots of info about this at Hydrogen Audio too.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #9  
Old 2005-03-28, 08:50 PM
mailleon's Avatar
mailleon mailleon is offline
189.18 GB/222.43 GB/1.18
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Whew..don't know if this helps......more zoom.........less zoom?........who's zoomin who?...Aretha! Let me know. Thanks for the patience. No clue how to increase screenshot settings.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2secspec.JPG
( 166.4 KB, 119 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #10  
Old 2005-03-28, 09:32 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
923.61 MB/96.22 MB/0.10
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Well, I can't tell exactly, but I do see some "column stacking" right above the 1.4 second mark in BLUE/BLACK. which is usually an indicator of lossy lineage. The huge black streaks at 12.5khz that you see are that horrible "U" shaped response in your frequency response graph. I'm gonna learn along with you what others think might have caused that. It's strange that the AnalFreq and EAC frequency graphs look a lot different, but it's not the first time that it's happened. I believe that it depends on the weighting of the scales that you use for measurement, and the 2 proggies are set up differently.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #11  
Old 2005-03-28, 09:48 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

well, this image is a bit easier to see.

check the little numbers at the bottom. about 2 seconds works best, this zoom is a bit too tight.

EAC is not the easiest to read. also, for its frequency analysis to be even close to helpful you need to set the FFT to maximum. AnalFreq is good, too.

I agree with New Homebrew:
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Homebrew
These look lossy:
suspectdylantrk1.GIF
FreqSuspectDylantrk1.GIF
freqandspecofdylantrk2.GIF looks like an FM to me but it's kinda hard to tell right now.

mailleon, feel free to post your screenshots here, we'll look at them. send me a private message if you want to send me a samples of these tracks that I can analyze and post pics of if you like.

You also might want to install a demo version of Adobe Audition, the SA will still work even after the demo expires and it is much easier to read than EAC.
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #12  
Old 2005-03-30, 05:23 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

Okay, I got two 5-second samples from mailleon, the first is called "hummingbird1" and the second is called "hummingbird2"

hummingbird1.flac is 100% lossy. I'm trying to remember where I've seen these free-floating "hyphen blocks" before. It's some specific encoder that does this.
Attached Images
File Type: gif hummingbird1_2sec_sa.gif
( 199.1 KB, 20 views)
 
File Type: gif hummingbird1_5sec_sa.gif
( 205.6 KB, 14 views)
 
File Type: gif hummingbird1_fa.gif
( 10.9 KB, 16 views)
 
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #13  
Old 2005-03-30, 05:26 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

also, there's 76 "potentially" clipped samples on the left & 19 on the right in only a five second space of time.

Left Right
Min Sample Value: -32768 -32768
Max Sample Value: 32767 32767
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Possibly Clipped: 76 19
DC Offset: .001 .014
Minimum RMS Power: -21.55 dB -20.6 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -7.22 dB -8.44 dB
Average RMS Power: -12.45 dB -13.76 dB
Total RMS Power: -12.08 dB -13.41 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms
Attached Images
File Type: gif hummingbird1_5sec_wv.gif
( 22.9 KB, 87 views)
 
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #14  
Old 2005-03-30, 05:28 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

hummingbird2.flac appears to be a completely lossless source:
Attached Images
File Type: gif hummingbird2_2sec_sa.gif
( 236.3 KB, 14 views)
 
File Type: gif hummingbird2_5sec_sa.gif
( 243.0 KB, 11 views)
 
File Type: gif hummingbird2_fa.gif
( 10.7 KB, 15 views)
 
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #15  
Old 2005-03-30, 05:29 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: Well.....another is this Mp3?

the only strange thing about this one is how the fa becomes a straight line at 19kHz. Probably just hiss way up there.
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble > Lossy or Lossless?


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:47 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts