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  #1  
Old 2005-03-09, 01:50 PM
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Question Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

What are the standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs? There is so much good stuff here that physical trading in addition to downloading is a must, imo.

Does burning a DVD from the files provided in a BT here at TTD, then ripping it via Decryptor into the VIDEO_TS etc. files have the same negative effect of burning .wav's from FLAC onto a redbook CD and then EAC'ing them back to .wav? Or does the DVD format address this problem so it is a moot point?

I guess the practical issue I'm trying to deal with is if I should burn data discs and DVD's of all my downloaded DVD's. Also, when doing a trade or b&p should one send a data disc with the contents of the torrent, or an actual DVD that is ready to be popped into a player and watched?

Thanks in advance (btw, I checked the FAQ, but couldn't find anything pertaining to this specifically for DVD, just stuff on audio). FWIW, I'm using windoze boxes (xp and 2k) and have decrypter and nero for software pertaining to DVDs.

best,
Jim
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  #2  
Old 2005-03-09, 02:12 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

When you burn a DVDR, the VIDEO_TS folder in the burned DVDR should have the *exact* same contents as the VIDEO_TS folder on your harddrive. In other words, it should not be changed in anyway from burning. You should be able to run your md5 checksum on the burned disc and it should pass. (However, I am hearing of some problems when using Nero and burning as a Video DVD that it sometimes changes the IFO and BUP files). So, you should not have to 'archive' your VIDEO_TS folder as well as burn your viewable DVDR.

As for trading DVDs, I have sometimes asked for a Data DVDR simply because I wanted two (or more) shows that were small in size and so if just burned as Data I could get them all on one DVD instead of two (or more) viewable DVDRs. This is really something that needs to be worked out between the two parties involved in the trade/b&p.
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  #3  
Old 2005-03-09, 02:55 PM
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Talking Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

So, if done with decrypter the files ripped from a viewable DVDR should be identical and pass the md5, that's what i'm hearing right?

Also, do people typically specify what type of DVDR (plus or minus) they use prior to a b&p or trade?

thanks!!
Jim
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  #4  
Old 2005-03-09, 03:12 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraras
So, if done with decrypter the files ripped from a viewable DVDR should be identical and pass the md5, that's what i'm hearing right?
Yes, they should (except as I noted above, sometimes if you burn the DVD as a video DVD, Nero will convert the IFO and BUP files but will leave the VOBs alone).

Quote:
Also, do people typically specify what type of DVDR (plus or minus) they use prior to a b&p or trade?

thanks!!
Jim
Yes, you should because some people can only burn plus or minus and some people can only read plus or minus (for instance, I can read plus or minus but only burn to minus).
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  #5  
Old 2005-03-09, 08:18 PM
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jraras jraras is offline
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Unhappy Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

[quote=U2Lynne]Yes, they should (except as I noted above, sometimes if you burn the DVD as a video DVD, Nero will convert the IFO and BUP files but will leave the VOBs alone).

OK, well I just checked a video DVD I burnt with GEAR, after d/l'ing the files from TTD. The results: upon ripping (using DVD decrypter) and checking the md5 the VOBs are fine, but the IFO and BUP are NOT--ala the claims made against Nero seem to be true w/ GEAR as well. Has anyone else experienced this with GEAR?

So, now I'm trying to burn the actual file structures that I dl'd from TTD to a video DVD using DVD Decrypter, but in file mode I can't seem to burn a disc. THe only option I see for 'write' (or burning) is in ISO mode and since we all d/l from TTD in file and people are using this to burn here, I must be missing something... no?

I'm a pretty anal guy from the audio world, so i test stuff like this to make sure all md5's match, etc and that I have the correct filesets in order to help with reseeding down the road. But, with Nero, GEAR and who knows what else changing IFO and BUP it probably isn't far fetched to guess that a lot of the physically traded/b&p'd stuff will actually NOT match the md5's of the torrents exactly, unless the trade/b&p occurs on data dvd. This seems like an issue to me... perhaps I'm paranoid.

thanks AGAIN
Jim
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  #6  
Old 2005-03-09, 08:33 PM
h_vargas
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

this is why i use RecordNow to burn DVDs. it does *not* manipulate MD5s, info files, BUPs/IFOs, etc.

ever since around version 5.5. of Nero, i've read of it being problematic with burning DVDs... at first, it was what type of DVD compilation to use (UDF or DVD-Video...) so the burned DVD would play on a settop DVD player. now with the talk of Nero manipulating BUPs and/or IFOs on the DVD video disc, i'm not too surprised. i will say this, the video DVDs that i have burned with Nero 6.3 (i think that's the version i have) work fine on my settop players. but i still trust RecordNow for my data DVD archived discs and use it most of the time anyway, as it accepts the VIDEO_TS folder no matter what type of file is in there. (some authoring programs put in other files, such as layout a.k.a project/.LAY files, and Nero gives an error every time i try to burn a VIDEO_TS folder with said file types, which is just an annoyance to click "OK" to disregard the file every time.)

i think DVDDecrypter is god for burning. but like jraras, i never found an option for burning anything other than ISO files with DVDDecrypter. if they included that in an updated version, i'd probably dump RecordNow. the fewer programs i can get away with using, the better.
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  #7  
Old 2005-03-09, 09:02 PM
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jraras jraras is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

So, basically if I want to be 100% sure that I'm spreading and receiving filesets that will check with original TTD md5's the only way to assure that is to trade/b&p/archive data discs of the filesets, not just the video DVDs. (analgous to how we all archive our data discs full of FLACs and not CDA's)

Bah! Makes snail-mail transactions quite the predicament, almost more than it's worth, since it seems like a lot of people archive and trade video DVDs as opposed to the filesets that comprise them.



JR

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_vargas
this is why i use RecordNow to burn DVDs. it does *not* manipulate MD5s, info files, BUPs/IFOs, etc.

ever since around version 5.5. of Nero, i've read of it being problematic with burning DVDs... at first, it was what type of DVD compilation to use (UDF or DVD-Video...) so the burned DVD would play on a settop DVD player. now with the talk of Nero manipulating BUPs and/or IFOs on the DVD video disc, i'm not too surprised. i will say this, the video DVDs that i have burned with Nero 6.3 (i think that's the version i have) work fine on my settop players. but i still trust RecordNow for my data DVD archived discs and use it most of the time anyway, as it accepts the VIDEO_TS folder no matter what type of file is in there. (some authoring programs put in other files, such as layout a.k.a project/.LAY files, and Nero gives an error every time i try to burn a VIDEO_TS folder with said file types, which is just an annoyance to click "OK" to disregard the file every time.)

i think DVDDecrypter is god for burning. but like jraras, i never found an option for burning anything other than ISO files with DVDDecrypter. if they included that in an updated version, i'd probably dump RecordNow. the fewer programs i can get away with using, the better.
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  #8  
Old 2005-03-09, 09:34 PM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraras
Bah! Makes snail-mail transactions quite the predicament, almost more than it's worth, since it seems like a lot of people archive and trade video DVDs as opposed to the filesets that comprise them.



JR
Well it was the same a few years ago with audio cdrs. I've got over 100, probably 10-20% having clicks or pops somewhere on them that have crept in during copying and ruined their tradeability and sometimes also the listenability.

If somebody won't take data dvds in a mail trade then perhaps you could email them the artwork, md5s & info via email to verify their files with & pass along. And also verify the md5s on the video dvd before you send it out.

Another big issue for me is whether the VIDEO_TS folder needs to be altered or not (as Nero 6.3 does) in order to play on all standalones when burned.
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  #9  
Old 2005-03-10, 09:23 AM
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RainDawg RainDawg is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Just to chime in here....

The way around these problems is to burn with Nero as a data disc, but with a VIDEO_TS and a blank AUDIO_TS folder. If the VIDEO_TS folder (which is what you'll download from TTD) was authored correctly, this will still play in 99% of standalone players fine. Nero seems to alter the info files to perfectly match one standard, but it's not necessary.

So the answer to the question is yes, burn it as a data disc. But note that if you observe the rules, you won't need to sacrifice standalone playability with then disc. And as a data DVD, it'll exactly match the md5s on all files before and after burning unless there has been a burn error.

Oh, and yes, do use DVD Decrypter for this, as it's the only one that really does good error-checking on the files as they are extracted and will throw up an alarm if something goes wrong. Of course, if somethign does go wrong, your md5 will fail, but it's always nice to have a second layer of checking.
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  #10  
Old 2005-03-10, 12:34 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDawg
Just to chime in here....

The way around these problems is to burn with Nero as a data disc, but with a VIDEO_TS and a blank AUDIO_TS folder. If the VIDEO_TS folder (which is what you'll download from TTD) was authored correctly, this will still play in 99% of standalone players fine. Nero seems to alter the info files to perfectly match one standard, but it's not necessary.
Sadly, I don't think it's as simple as that - and I would be surprised if 99% of all DVD players could play a VIDEO_TS folder burned in data mode.

When a DVD is authored, the IFO files contain "relative sector pointers" to other files on the DVD. Hardware DVD players use these pointers to locate the content on the DVD - it's only the "VIDEO_TS.IFO" file that a hardware player will actually look for by name. After that file has been found, everything is based on sectors, not files.

In order for the sector pointers to point to the correct parts of the correct files, the files must be ordered correctly on the DVD - and this is not alphabetical order, which is probably how Nero burns data DVDs.

A typical VIDEO_TS folder on a correctly burned DVD would have the files located in the following order:

VIDEO_TS.IFO
VIDEO_TS.VOB
VIDEO_TS.BUP
VTS_01_0.IFO
VTS_01_0.VOB
VTS_01_1.VOB
VTS_01_2.VOB
VTS_01_0.BUP
VTS_02_0.IFO
VTS_02_0.VOB
VTS_02_1.VOB
VTS_02_0.BUP

Notice that the order is IFO -> VOB -> BUP which is where the alphabetical sorting fails.

This is why DVDs burnt as data discs shouldn't work - it's simply a matter of the files being placed on the disc in the wrong order, so the pointers are no longer pointing where they should be. It's possible that by co-incidence that some or even all of the pointers could still point to the right place, but it isn't guaranteed.

Under Linux, the "mkisofs" program understands the .IFO files, and when you ask it to generate a DVD-Video compliant .ISO file for burning a DVD, it uses the pointers in the IFO files to decode where the files should be placed on the DVD.

Nero may well have it's own views on where files should go on a DVD (which could be different to the decisions made by the DVD Authoring program), and change some of the pointers in the IFO files. This is probably even more likely for DVDs authored using a standalone DVD recorder - I've seen some very odd structures being generated by standalone DVD recorders.

An interesting experiment (which I can't do as I don't use Windows) would be to burn a DVD in DVD-Video mode using Nero, copy the files back the hard disk, and then burn another copy of the DVD and see if Nero changes files that it has already changed.

If it turns out that Nero does indeed create MD5-identical burns after at least one generation, and considering the fact that Nero is more or less the de-facto standard for DVD burning, maybe a solution would be for seeders to pass the files through Nero before seeding.

Another solution (if it's only the IFO files that are being changed by Nero), would be to burn those (along with the torrent's text file and original MD5 checksums) in a seperate folder on the DVD. When extracting the DVD for trading, you could just copy the VOBs from the VIDEO_TS folder, and everything else from the data folder.
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  #11  
Old 2005-03-10, 01:04 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Every single DVD I have burned has been done using the Data - DVD-ROM (UDF) tab. I then name the DVD and place the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folder in the window and burn it. I've never had any problems with this method and I have burned a *lot* of DVDs! Of course, I'm talking about on my Mac using Toast, but I've heard of many people burning DVDs as a Data DVD using Nero and I haven't heard of any problems using that method (except for lots of user errors ).

(image of Toast contents before a burn)
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  #12  
Old 2005-03-10, 06:23 PM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4candles
An interesting experiment (which I can't do as I don't use Windows) would be to burn a DVD in DVD-Video mode using Nero, copy the files back the hard disk, and then burn another copy of the DVD and see if Nero changes files that it has already changed.
I was thinking about this, too.
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  #13  
Old 2005-03-10, 07:29 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
Every single DVD I have burned has been done using the Data - DVD-ROM (UDF) tab. I then name the DVD and place the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folder in the window and burn it. I've never had any problems with this method and I have burned a *lot* of DVDs! Of course, I'm talking about on my Mac using Toast, but I've heard of many people burning DVDs as a Data DVD using Nero and I haven't heard of any problems using that method (except for lots of user errors ).

(image of Toast contents before a burn)
It wouldn't surprise me if even in "data mode" Toast (and maybe even Nero) did the right thing with a VIDEO_TS directory and ordered the files correctly. It doesn't do any harm, so would seem to be sensible behaviour.

But the only tool I know that will actually tell you the order files are located on a DVD is "isoinfo" (a Unix command-line program that comes as part of the "cdrtools" package).
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  #14  
Old 2005-03-13, 03:11 PM
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jraras jraras is offline
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Lightbulb Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
Every single DVD I have burned has been done using the Data - DVD-ROM (UDF) tab. I then name the DVD and place the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folder in the window and burn it. I've never had any problems with this method and I have burned a *lot* of DVDs! Of course, I'm talking about on my Mac using Toast, but I've heard of many people burning DVDs as a Data DVD using Nero and I haven't heard of any problems using that method (except for lots of user errors ).

(image of Toast contents before a burn)
I actually just tried this using the Veritas RecordNow DX chinzy software that came with my external Sony drive a few years ago and the data DVD I burned, per Lynne's method, is currently working fine in a $99 JVC DVD player... I guess I can't vouch for the readability of 99% of players, but it's working on mine.

Also, I looked at the decrypter of this disc and one I burned as a 'video DVD' in Nero and both of them listed the files in alpha order (BUP first), so does this really matter as was previously mentioned here?

If the readability isn't an issue, this should clearly be the preferred way of burning filesets to DVD, as their is no editing/changing/amending of the real files and md5's will continue to checkout.

Jim
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  #15  
Old 2005-03-13, 07:40 PM
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jraras jraras is offline
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Lightbulb Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Hey all,

Been playing around with filesets and burning different ways all day and I just thought of something: why not make an "AUDIO_TS" folder mandatory in the parent folder of all DVD seeds? That way the fileset that results from the torrent could be burned "as-is" using the data setting in the downloaders' software, and the "AUDIO_TS" folder (which will be blank) will be included in the md5. For people burning using 'video DVD' mode, it shouldn't harm anything.

I must be missing something, because it seems too easy.

Jim
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