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  #1  
Old 2007-06-26, 05:42 PM
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2000_man 2000_man is offline
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Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I'm looking to burn a 24 bit show to DVD-Audio. I'm also wanting to convert the 24 bit to 16 bit so I can make a cd copy also. I read this thread

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ghlight=24-bit

about it also.

What I'm wanting to know is if anyone has used DVD-Audiofile and if it is a good program (or any others you have used from first hand knowledge). I was thinking about using it to burn the DVD-Audio. Also, what program would any of you suggest that would convert the 24 bit to 16 bit so that I can make a copy for a cd too. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 2007-06-26, 10:12 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I've used DVD-Audiofile (free) and it is great, it just takes 30-45 min. to create the iso file. You also need some extra space on your hard drive. If you are burning 4 GB of wav files, you will need an additional 4 GB for the DVD-Audio structure folder, then an additional 4 GB for the iso. The DVD-Audio structure folder gets erased after the iso has been fully created. Don't try stopping the process after the DVD-Audio structure has been created, and then try to burn that, it doesn't work. I tried burning this folder as data, and then as a UDF disc and my DVD-A player wouldn't recognize the disc. I think this is because a DVD-A disc needs some special identifying features that your typical burning programs can't add, but I'm not sure. However, if you let the authoring process fully complete, and then burn the iso with a burning program it will work flawlessly.

I think Audacity will convert 24 to 16 for free, and any program like Soundforge (not free) can also do it.
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  #3  
Old 2007-06-26, 10:27 PM
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2000_man 2000_man is offline
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Thanks Tubular. I figured you would know the answer. I've got plenty of storage so I luckily don't have to worry about that. I was going to use DVD-Audiofile and I have Roxio Easy Media Creator 9 to burn it. Does DVD-Audiofile create a true DVD-Audio or does it use DVD-Video to store the audio? I have a Panasonic DVD-Audio player that I'm going to play it on.

I know enough about the audio side to be fairly comfortable, but I'm still a novice at burning DVD's or DVD-Audio. I downloaded a show in 16 bit that someone converted from the 24 bit version and it had a lot of pops. So, I downloaded the 24 bit show which is flawless and I was going to experiment and burn my first DVD-Audio disc and then try and convert it to 16 bit for a cd. Thanks again.
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  #4  
Old 2007-06-27, 06:33 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

No problem. DVD-Audiofile creates a true DVD-Audio disc. All of the files are in the AUDIO_TS folder and not in the VIDEO_TS folder. They are also .aob files, not .vob files, like video would be. Remember to download and install the Java Runtime environment (free), as DVD-Audiofile needs this to work.
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  #5  
Old 2007-06-27, 11:51 AM
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2000_man 2000_man is offline
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Good deal. Got Java installed. I found the board where the developer talks about DVD Audiofile and I've read some on it. I downloaded Audacity last night and played around with it and got the converted the 24-bit to 16-bit. The newest beta version can convert flac files so I used that one and it worked great. That's a neat little tool. Thanks for the recommendation. Sounds flawless now. Whoever converted it the first time did something wrong because there were numerous pops that weren't on the original 24 bit. Now I can burn it to cd and dvd.
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  #6  
Old 2007-06-28, 01:35 PM
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

question/help !!

Ive begun to create Audio DVD's with this program http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com.

Its great - I burned two 3disc shows & created a menu with the info.file on the DVD.
+ each show/track name shows original source

example of text on TV screen when playing:

Show: gd78-04-16.sbd.miller.xxxxx.sbeok.flac16
Track: gd78-04-16d1t11

Here Is The Question:

Check out Step 2. http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/guide.htm
Audio Format:
Quote:
Select the audio encoding format: PCM (48 kHz/16 bit) has high quality which is similar to Audio CDs, the total playing time is up to 6 hours. PCM (96 kHz/24 bit) has the best quality, but total play time is only 2 hours
Yes I understand most everything I have is 44.1/16bit.

What I dont understand is:

Are there any cons to converting/recording the 44.1/16 wav files > 96/24 or 48/16 PCM

Seems to me it would be a bunch of extra 'headroom' not being utilized - but that is a swag. I played the disk on my best stereo system - sounded great (but that doesnt mean im not doing something 'wrong')

thanks.
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  #7  
Old 2007-06-29, 12:26 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

With DVD-Audio (not an audio only DVD-video) there is no need to upsample from 16/44.1 to 16/48. You can burn the CD quality 16/44.1 files right to DVD-Audio without upsampling.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=52933

"If you're playing back 16-bit 44.1kHz sampled content without any processing, and the DAC is ideal, then increasing the sample rate or bitdepth will make no difference to the output quality. If the DAC is non-ideal, then upsampling in software can improved the measured performance. If the DAC is terrible, then ABXing this imrpovement by listening is possible (especially with torture signals!)."

If you're going to upsample 16/44.1 to 16/48 to be able to make an audio only DVD-video disc, then I would use a software program like Audacity or Soundforge at the highest quality settings with anti alias filter. So you are saying that you can input 16/44.1 files into Audio DVD Creator and it will upsample to 16/48 for you, then author the DVD? I'm not sure how much of a quality difference there would be between Audio DVD Creator's upsampling and Audacity's or Soundforge.

If you upsample and bit expand from 16/44.1 to 24/96, then you will not be able to fit as many minutes of music on a disc, which is a major drawback, esp. if it doesn't make a huge difference in sound quality. Maybe you could try upsampling and bit expanding one 16/44.1 show that you have to 24/96 with Audacity or SF, then doing an A/B comparison. If the 24/96 sounds noticeably better with your DVD player & Digital to Analog converter combo, then go for it, if you don't mind fitting less minutes of music on a disc. My guess is it probably won't make a huge difference in sound quality even if you have a lower end player.

As for gear, I would get a DVD-A/V player or receiver with a real multibit DA converter, not a 1 bit converter with high sampling frequency. Denon, Onkyo, and Yamaha are good consumer brands. Parasound and Adcom are a couple of good affordable audiophile brands. www.stereophile.com and www.audiogon.com would definitely be worth checking out for used gear and gear recommendations. Careful, some DVD-A/V players will only play DVD-R and not DVD+R. www.ecost.com has good deals on new and refurbished gear. You may want to wait a couple years to buy a new standalone player until the format war that is currently going on between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is over and a winner is declared. Then buy a player that supports DVD-Audio. It looks like the superior format Blu-Ray will be the winner as Blockbuster is backing it.
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  #8  
Old 2007-06-29, 12:40 AM
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Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

I may be way off base here, but wouldn't upsampling 16/44.1 recordings be pretty redundaant, the same as upsampling mp3 to wav is totally useless, or upsampling a video CD to a dvd video...
It seems to me that it would just makes those files bigger and bloated, I'm not too sure it would make the sound better, unless your ad/da converters are shite at 16/44.1 and awesome at 16/48.
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  #9  
Old 2007-06-29, 01:19 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

There are some DA converters that use interpolation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation

"In the mathematical subfield of numerical analysis, interpolation is a method of constructing new data points from a discrete set of known data points."

So these interpolating, upsampling DA converters add the missing info, so they claim. Here is a good article on Simaudio Moon CD players, and why they use oversampling, not upsampling:

http://www.simaudio.com/upsampling.htm

"In fact, and most probably, these latest methods actually deteriorate sound quality if the conversion takes the sampling rate to a frequency that is not a direct integer multiple of the original sampling rate, being 44.1 kHz for audio CD."

A while ago I was wondering if converting from 44.1 to 48 would cause any quality loss, because this is done all the time for DVD-videos. Someone films a show and then they need taper's rig audio to synch to it, cause camera mic audio sucks. So they find a 48 > 44.1 FLAC or SHN set, then upsample to 48. I did some listening tests (on PC speakers) between:

1)44.1 FLAC set

2)44.1 FLAC set > upsample to 48 in Soundforge at highest quality settings w/anti-alias filter.

#2 sounded duller in comparison to #1. I liked #1 better.
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  #10  
Old 2007-06-29, 04:18 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Holy crap, I just upsampled a 16/44.1 wav to 16/48 with Wavelab and played it back in Winamp and the difference is incredible!!! The 16/48 sounds unbelievable compared to the 16/44.1! I definitely prefer the upsampled wav! I guess it is because I'm using the stock crappy soundcard that came in my Dell laptop! The Hydrogen forum quote is right!!! If you have a crappy soundcard or DAC, upsampling will definitely improve the sound quality. I know it isn't a 24 bit soundcard because it won't play a 24 bit wav in Windows Media Player. The PC I did the other test on did have a 24 bit soundcard, and I guess it was a much better soundcard with a much better DAC, so I guess I noticed the non-integer multiplication of going from 44.1 to 48.

This is big news IMO for anyone with a crappy DAC! Try upsampling a 16/44.1 wav to 16/48 on your PC and see if it sounds better! Holy shit!
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  #11  
Old 2007-06-29, 09:58 AM
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direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
So you are saying that you can input 16/44.1 files into Audio DVD Creator and it will upsample to 16/48 for you, then author the DVD? I'm not sure how much of a quality difference there would be between Audio DVD Creator's upsampling and Audacity's or Soundforge.
Yes. You collect the wav files & the program will upsample to PCM, then author the DVD.
Im just not familiar what 'method' or codec they are using. I was impressed with the results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
If you upsample and bit expand from 16/44.1 to 24/96, then you will not be able to fit as many minutes of music on a disc, which is a major drawback, esp. if it doesn't make a huge difference in sound quality. Maybe you could try upsampling and bit expanding one 16/44.1 show that you have to 24/96 with Audacity or SF, then doing an A/B comparison. If the 24/96 sounds noticeably better with your DVD player & Digital to Analog converter combo, then go for it, if you don't mind fitting less minutes of music on a disc. My guess is it probably won't make a huge difference in sound quality even if you have a lower end player.
Im not a broke college student. Im playing back on a mid-range $5k component stereo system. The dvd-a/sacd/dts is a newer sony...nothing newsworthy but not a pos either. Most of my concern is about the upsample conversion - who has the best codec - and/or is this procedure technically/sonically 'wrong'.

The only reason Im interested in this procedure is having one concert, seamless on one disc. (sometimes having second set on 2discs is a bummer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioarchivist
I may be way off base here, but wouldn't upsampling 16/44.1 recordings be pretty redundaant, the same as upsampling mp3 to wav is totally useless, or upsampling a video CD to a dvd video...
It seems to me that it would just makes those files bigger and bloated, I'm not too sure it would make the sound better, unless your ad/da converters are shite at 16/44.1 and awesome at 16/48.
This is what I believed - just want to ensure Im not degrading the 'soon-to-be considered lossy' 44.1/16 stuff any worse than it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Holy crap, I just upsampled a 16/44.1 wav to 16/48 with Wavelab and played it back in Winamp and the difference is incredible!!! The 16/48 sounds unbelievable compared to the 16/44.1! I definitely prefer the upsampled wav! I guess it is because I'm using the stock crappy soundcard that came in my Dell laptop!
you cant sample music on laptop speakers - you are fired!
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  #12  
Old 2007-06-29, 08:29 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Sony doesn't make DVD-A/V players, unless they just started making them. SACD was/is a competitor to DVD-A, so Sony was pushing SACD exclusively. If your player is a DVD-V/SACD/CD player, then it is likely to have a 1 bit/high sampling rate Digital to Analog Converter only, because SACD is a 1 bit system. A lot of conventional CD players also use a 1 bit sigma delta oversampling DA converter as well, even though CDs are 16 bit. If you are running analog outputs from your disc player to your receiver, then upsampling 16/44.1 > 16/48 will most likely improve the sound quality, because, no offesnse, your DA converter is less than ideal. I spent a lot of money on an SACD player and about 20 SACDs myself. A multibit sigma-delta oversampling DA converter is much better and is found in higher end CD players and most DVD-A/V players (I think, at least the higher end ones). Companies use 1 bit converters because they are cheaper than multibit ones.

If you are sending a digital signal from your DVD player to your receiver or preamp/processor, then it depends what kind of DA converter is in that component.

It would be a good idea to burn a CD of a show and then burn an audio only 16/48 DVD-video with Audio DVD creator. Then do a listening test and decide what is best for you. Here is the thing, though: If you ever upgrade to a Blu-Ray/DVD-Audio/Video player with a true multibit converter, then those upsampled 16/48 audio only DVD-Vs will sound WORSE than CDs because you now have a great DA converter. Upsampled files will no longer sound better. In fact, upsampled files will sound worse unless they are a direct integer multiple (2x, 3x, 4x, etc.) of the original file:

"When changing the sampling rate, it is better to maintain an integer multiple of the original signal's sample rate, so the processing is kept simple. More importantly, the end result is more accurate, thus enabling a higher fidelity of sound reproduction. A two times (2x) oversampling system will double the sampling rate, by adding one easy to find numerical value in between each actual sample. For example, when a 44.1kHz digital signal is processed, a 88.2kHz digital signal is obtained. It is simple, effective and precise because it is a direct multiple of the original digital signal. For an upsampler to make a 96kHz digital signal from a 44.1kHz signal, it will have to perform awkward mathematical operations to obtain a 96kHz signal. (96kHz / 44.1KHz equals 2.1768707). This results in a less accurate output from the digital filter, with everything else following (i.e. digital-to-analog conversion and analog filtering) also being less accurate. As well, exactly like oversampling, the artificially higher sampling frequency created by an upsampler doesn't increase the actual frequency response of the system, but simply increases the lower limit of the frequencies that need to be eliminated."

So it would be a waste of a lot of discs (not THAT much money, I know, but it adds up after a while) to convert 16/44.1 to 16/48 if you ever get a Blu-Ray/DVD-A/V player with a multibit converter, or a receiver or pre/pro with multibit converters. You can burn a DVD-A disc and keep the files at 16/44.1.

I read that there is a great free program to resample, it is supposed to be better than Audacity, I'll look around for it. Wavelab is better than Soundforge from what I've read. I think foobar2000 will perform upsamlping to 48kHz on the fly, which improves the sound on my crappy soundcard/DA converter when listening through headphones. I'll have to do some listening tests and see how foobar2000 compares to Wavelab's upsampling.
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  #13  
Old 2007-06-29, 09:31 PM
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direwolf-pgh direwolf-pgh is offline
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Sony doesn't make DVD-A/V players, unless they just started making them. SACD was/is a competitor to DVD-A, so Sony was pushing SACD exclusively. If your player is a DVD-V/SACD/CD player, then it is likely to have a 1 bit/high sampling rate Digital to Analog Converter only, because SACD is a 1 bit system. A lot of conventional CD players also use a 1 bit sigma delta oversampling DA converter as well, even though CDs are 16 bit. If you are running analog outputs from your disc player to your receiver, then upsampling 16/44.1 > 16/48 will most likely improve the sound quality, because, no offesnse, your DA converter is less than ideal. I spent a lot of money on an SACD player and about 20 SACDs myself. A multibit sigma-delta oversampling DA converter is much better and is found in higher end CD players and most DVD-A/V players (I think, at least the higher end ones). Companies use 1 bit converters because they are cheaper than multibit ones.

If you are sending a digital signal from your DVD player to your receiver or preamp/processor, then it depends what kind of DA converter is in that component.

It would be a good idea to burn a CD of a show and then burn an audio only 16/48 DVD-video with Audio DVD creator. Then do a listening test and decide what is best for you. Here is the thing, though: If you ever upgrade to a Blu-Ray/DVD-Audio/Video player with a true multibit converter, then those upsampled 16/48 audio only DVD-Vs will sound WORSE than CDs because you now have a great DA converter. Upsampled files will no longer sound better. In fact, upsampled files will sound worse unless they are a direct integer multiple (2x, 3x, 4x, etc.) of the original file:

"When changing the sampling rate, it is better to maintain an integer multiple of the original signal's sample rate, so the processing is kept simple. More importantly, the end result is more accurate, thus enabling a higher fidelity of sound reproduction. A two times (2x) oversampling system will double the sampling rate, by adding one easy to find numerical value in between each actual sample. For example, when a 44.1kHz digital signal is processed, a 88.2kHz digital signal is obtained. It is simple, effective and precise because it is a direct multiple of the original digital signal. For an upsampler to make a 96kHz digital signal from a 44.1kHz signal, it will have to perform awkward mathematical operations to obtain a 96kHz signal. (96kHz / 44.1KHz equals 2.1768707). This results in a less accurate output from the digital filter, with everything else following (i.e. digital-to-analog conversion and analog filtering) also being less accurate. As well, exactly like oversampling, the artificially higher sampling frequency created by an upsampler doesn't increase the actual frequency response of the system, but simply increases the lower limit of the frequencies that need to be eliminated."

So it would be a waste of a lot of discs (not THAT much money, I know, but it adds up after a while) to convert 16/44.1 to 16/48 if you ever get a Blu-Ray/DVD-A/V player with a multibit converter, or a receiver or pre/pro with multibit converters. You can burn a DVD-A disc and keep the files at 16/44.1.

I read that there is a great free program to resample, it is supposed to be better than Audacity, I'll look around for it. Wavelab is better than Soundforge from what I've read. I think foobar2000 will perform upsamlping to 48kHz on the fly, which improves the sound on my crappy soundcard/DA converter when listening through headphones. I'll have to do some listening tests and see how foobar2000 compares to Wavelab's upsampling.
sounds good to me.. but a few questions please.

1. DVD-A = backward compatibility with almost any DVD player.
Quote:
The introduction of the DVD-Audio format required some kind of backward compatibility with existing DVD-Video players. To address this, most DVD-Audio discs contain, at a minimum, a Dolby Digital 5.1-channel audio track on the disc[2] (which can be downmixed to two channels for listeners with no surround sound setup). Some discs also include a native Dolby Digital 2.0 stereo, and even a DTS 96/24 5.1-channel, audio track[3].
I have a few and they play fine on a Sony deck - usualy its the DTS track from the disk.

2. i doubt I could hear the difference between 44.1/16 & 48/16.

3. what is your background in audio? I enjoy your comments.
Personally Im just a hobbyist that reads here and there & likes to fiddle with audio recording programs & gear.

4. Technology starts>changes>and usually ends up full circle.
Its hard to say what 'works' and what doesnt. I remember my first CD player in 1980's had a 20bit - now today its 1bit - tomorrow its whatever.
this is a random interesting read http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...mpling_dac.htm

appreciate the good thoughts
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  #14  
Old 2007-06-30, 01:16 AM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

This is a very good free sample rate converter, better than Audacity:
http://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/
I bet the pro version is even better, but it is not free.

1.You should hear those commercial DVD-As in all their lossless MLP or uncompressed PCM glory on a DVD-A player! "Fragile" by Yes, "Brain Salad Surgery" by ELP, and "Gaucho" by Steely Dan are just amazing. IMO, in my listening experiences, SACD=shite. It is a little bit better than CD, but not the huge improvement that was expected. SACD even has less resolution than CD above 10kHz. DVD-A on the other hand is a giant leap beyond CD and SACD resolution. You can read more about SACD vs. DVD-A vs. CD here: http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm
The author really blows the lid off the scam that is SACD.

2.Upsampling from 44.1 > 48 degrades sound quality (unless you have a cheap soundcard, then it actually improves it! I don't understand this). In one listening test I did on a PC with a good soundcard it was clear that the upsampled wav sounded a bit dull compared to the 44.1 wav. Most DAT recordings originated at 48. Then to burn to CD, they are downsampled to 44.1. Now that DVD-video is here, they are going back to 48. It would be great if everything that was recorded at 48 could be circulated that way, but it probably won't ever happen for at least half of the seeds.

3.I'm just a hobbyist too. My interest in sound really took off after I bought a pair of really nice 4 way speakers about 10 years ago. They were very revealing, and I realized that my system sounded like shit!!!.....unless I played vinyl. Vinyl/analog was the answer! It didn't help that I had one of the harshest sounding CD players ever made, I think, a 1994 Sony. I hooked it up again a couple of years ago and it was painful to listen to. Now with DVD-A I'm very happy with digital.

4.I agree, we started with analog > digital > more lifelike digital intended to sound more analog. The r8brain sample rate converter page says it supports bit depths of up to 64! I hope I get to hear 64 bit recordings in my lifetime. I kinda doubt it though. If you have heard an analog sourced vinyl record, though, you have heard the best sounding recording that will ever exist, unless you are listening to master 2" reels. I read about half of that article, I'll read more tomorrow. I've never heard of the R2R zero-oversampling DA converters! Sounds interesting.

Last edited by Tubular; 2007-06-30 at 01:24 AM.
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  #15  
Old 2007-06-30, 01:20 PM
Tubular
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Re: Question(s) about 24 bit and 16 bit

Ooh, just found out about a big drawback to upsampling, at least with some shows. If your show has some tape hiss, then that hiss will be magnified significantly when you upsample. I just upsampled a track with some tape hiss from 44.1 > 48 with Wavelab and while it did sound better on my crappy PC soundcard/DAC, hiss increased a lot.
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