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  #1  
Old 2007-06-19, 12:42 AM
Tubular
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No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

I have downloaded a few video DVDs recently that had a "Do Not buy or sell, for free trade only" text scroll or message that appeared on the screen periodically throughout the performance footage of the show. I agree with this message, that it should not be sold, but I do not agree with where this message is placed. In my and several others' opinion, it should not be on the actual performance footage of the show, but on the menu of the DVD or on the opening/closing credits (and absolutely before or after any concert footage) of the show. As someone from another thread stated, it would be like adding an audible message on an audio torrent while the band was playing. It takes away and distracts from the enjoyment of the show! We should take all the steps necessary to ensure that people don't sell unreleased material (like reporting bootleg sellers to Ebay admins) as that would hurt the artist, but at what cost? The money that someone spends on bootlegs could obviously be used to buy official releases or concert tickets. Most of the fine people who use this site will never sell stuff they have downloaded, so why impose a penalty on them? The few jerks who will sell material from here will not be stopped by a scrolling message during a show. They will do it no matter what.

I propose that The Traders' Den ban DVDs that have such "do not buy or sell" messages on the performance footage of the show that have been added by the DVD author. Maybe an exception can be made for people who don't have access to the master files, and can't author a version without this message. I might even go as far to say that all graphics or special effects that are added by an author on the performance footage of the show should not be allowed, but I have seen at least one DVD where special effects were used. Sometimes it was cool, but after a while it became tiresome. So to summarize: put all the opulent, fancy graphics, effects, and "do not buy or sell, for free trade only" messages on the menus or opening/closing credits of a video DVD that you want, just keep them off the actual performance footage of the show. I realize that icons or scrolls added by TV stations or video cameras cannot be removed by the author cleanly, and shouldn't be messed with. I know I'd be up for a reauthor/reseed of those shows that have been done this way.

Last edited by Tubular; 2007-06-19 at 12:51 AM.
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  #2  
Old 2007-06-19, 08:14 AM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Do you know how easy it is to delete a menu or edit the beginning/end of a dvd to remove "do not sell" if I wanted to sell it?
It's a lot harder to do so when its actually on the footage. Interesting how I've yet to see one of the shows you're referring to show up on ebay.

Don't know why you're complaining so much, considering its always placed at full stage shots at the beginning or end of a song and is absolutely no different than the song titles or scrolling text TV stations put on broadcast. There's a real easy solution...if you don't want to see it, don't download shows he puts up.

If/when you ever tape, author, or share something, you can do what you want with it...till then you can stop complaining and posting in every thread at how annoying someone else's work is to you.
It's not going to change, we aren't going to ask the author to change it, we are not going to ban any dvd's for it.
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  #3  
Old 2007-06-19, 11:08 AM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Hi Tubular,

I can understand your frustration with that, although I've yet to see a show with that added. However, I don't think it is a good idea to start trying to tell DVD authors what they may or may not do to the show they are authoring or they may just not want to share it. Suggestions are fine. Most authors like to hear about what you think of their authoring (at least, the ones I've known don't mind constructive criticism), but I think they probably added those lines for good reason (they've probably had their shows up on ebay).

As Joe mentioned, it is very easy to change the menus. The menus show up as separate ifo/bup/vob files in the VIDEO_TS structure. So, you don't like that part, you throw it out, add your own menus, and throw it up on ebay! With the lines showing in the middle of the show, they are embedded in the main vobs and it would not be so easy to remove them. So, there is a reason why they are adding it into the middle of the show and not just the menus.
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  #4  
Old 2007-06-19, 10:31 PM
Tubular
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

I understand how easy it would be to remove all the menus, or a message at the beginning and end of a show, and I know why it was done the way it was, but this type of thing is never done with an audio torrent. It wasn't just me complaining, it was several others. The scroll on the John McLaughlin, Paco DeLucia, and Al DiMeola torrent was very large, and a lot of people voiced their opposition. One of them on the Santana torrent (haven't watched it yet) likened the message to spraypainting graffiti on fine art. The message on the Flecktones torrent was smaller and only appeared once. The smaller it is, and less frequently it appears, the easier it is to live with, at least to me.

You are right, I should (and will) stop complaining and just accept it now that I know it will not change, but I am glad I said something and tried to change it. Lynne, you said that you have yet to come across a DVD with this type of measure added. That may not be an accident, as most authors would probably rather see the show up on Ebay a couple of times than resort to draconian methods like a periodic message throughout a show. If something does show up on Ebay, then people with some free time can start the steps to remove it by reporting it to Ebay admins, then leaving a post or PM on the Ebay page about where to get it for free.
  #5  
Old 2007-06-20, 12:02 AM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

You simply cannot do the same thing with audio (I guess you could shout into your mics between songs or something), and at the same time way, way less audio is sold on ebay than video.

Unfortunately you don't have too much leverage in this situation. You're getting these wonderful shows for how much exactly? Oh that's right, free. You can also acquire some of your own master tapes and spend many many hours authoring your own DVD, and then put whatever the fuck you want on it.

I have to say I haven't seen this yet, but from what I've been told the messages appear between songs only. Is that REALLY that bad?
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  #6  
Old 2007-06-20, 12:34 AM
Tubular
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

You could shout into the mics during the show between songs or add a message by James Earl Jones ("This is CNN") or somebody in post between songs.

It is mostly between songs and on wide shots, but there are a couple times when it occurs during a performance on the Paco, John, and Al DVD. Also a person from the Santana torrent said that it happens during the performance a bit.

I don't think it is right when a TV station scrolls song titles or promos during shows, and I don't think it is right when an author adds stuff in post either (including wide shots or in between songs). There is a lot of movement on stage between songs sometimes and some banter, like people sipping beers or motioning to bandmates, or shots of the crowd.

It was mentioned that the concerts with the security scroll have not shown up on Ebay, so evidently someone is checking to see if it is up there or not. Therefore, someone would be checking to see if a concert shows up for sale on Ebay whether the security scroll is implemented or not on a DVD. I can learn to live with the scroll, but how many shows actually get put up for sale on Ebay? Is the problem that big?

Last edited by Tubular; 2007-06-20 at 12:39 AM.
  #7  
Old 2007-06-20, 11:17 AM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

i agree with you Tubular - and those videos get less playtime around here - its disrupts the groove while viewing.

now if the author taped it him/herself & released it that way - i have no issue.

but to acquire outtake footage / some rare stock & just mess around with it,
to me that is like the person who likes to remaster audio with a standard EQ - then seed out.

Ill often enjoy & thank them - its all good! - but then search out the original footage/audio myself if its kills the vibe.

no biggie - just my 2 cents
  #8  
Old 2007-06-20, 12:11 PM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Personally, I hate song titles showing up on DVDs, so I can relate to you not liking this scrolling message. Perhaps the thing to do is instead of getting on the authors case (I have no idea if you or anyone did, I'm just saying..), suggest to him that if he really needs to have that message added, please make it small and only last for a minimal amount of time. Authors usually react to suggestions made in a polite way rather than criticism (again, I don't know if you have criticized him or politely made a suggestion).

The direction I'm coming from is that I'm very, very reluctant to *tell* authors what they can and cannot do with their DVDs. I know how I feel if someone trys to tell me to do something instead of suggesting it and giving me good reasons. The best thing to do is to work with the authors to best meet their needs (mark the DVD so it doesn't show up on ebay) and your needs (have an enjoyable viewing experience).
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  #9  
Old 2007-06-20, 01:23 PM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmyth79
You simply cannot do the same thing with audio (I guess you could shout into your mics between songs or something), and
or blow a whistle
  #10  
Old 2007-06-20, 04:52 PM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

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Originally Posted by jameskg
or blow a whistle
What a great idea!!! I'm glad I implemented it 30+ years ago when I was taping.......back in the days before certain people began pretending to be experts on all field recordings by certain bands..... .

I've seem those markings be very useful for keeping unimportant things like lineage straight, much to the chagrin of certain self-proclaimed experts, huh, jameskg?



However, I must say, if anyone didn't like the way I applauded while recording at a concert I paid to see, they should go make your own tapes. And avoid the recordings I made.

Which is pretty much the answer to the original complaint.

If you don't like it, go ahead and make your own recordings. Then you can do with it as you please. Like applaud with a whistle.









Oh, and jamesky, if you must troll at TTD, next time, please, at least try to use some humor, if you can....




Before P'finger chases you off also.
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Last edited by freezer; 2007-06-20 at 04:56 PM. Reason: uh-oh, used the lineage word, can't remove it.... not in this context
  #11  
Old 2007-06-20, 10:57 PM
Tubular
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolf-pgh
now if the author taped it him/herself & released it that way - i have no issue.

but to acquire outtake footage / some rare stock & just mess around with it,
to me that is like the person who likes to remaster audio with a standard EQ - then seed out.
I agree with this for the most part, but what if someone filmed something him/herself and then added all kinds of trippy, psychedelic effects, or a box in the corner of the screen with him/herself playing air guitar/air drums along with the lead guitarist/drummer? What seems right to an individual might not be what is best for the rest of the community. If it was the only or "best" video of a show, then there would be people rightly clamoring for a version without the effects. If the effects were added by the camera during filming, then there is not much that can be done to undo it.

If you run an AUD camera or an AUD audio rig then it will be pretty easy to tell if it is yours even if you don't add a signature between songs. This is especially true for a camera, with the unique angle of the filmer, the timing of the zooms and the wobbles of the camera. Unless someone runs very similar gear in the same location as you with the same settings, then your audio tape will sound different than someone else's.

Should this site and its seeds be specifically geared towards thwarting ebay sellers, or should it be geared towards the people who advocate and practice the free and open exchange of unreleased live music and the maximum enjoyment of said material?
  #12  
Old 2007-06-20, 11:58 PM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
I agree with this for the most part, but what if someone filmed something him/herself and then added all kinds of trippy, psychedelic effects, or a box in the corner of the screen with him/herself playing air guitar/air drums along with the lead guitarist/drummer? What seems right to an individual might not be what is best for the rest of the community.
"best for the rest of the community"????

And who will decide these standards? The "community"? or just certain like minded individuals, claiming to represent the "community"??

Please keep in mind, there's way too many demanding types in your "community" to ever get full consensus.


And further extrapolating from your post, just how do you propose to stop someome from marking their recordings any way they want?

Are you suggesting to hunt down these transgressors and take their master tapes, to satisfy "the community"?

You'll need to consider that, because you'll never make everybody conform to your rules . Especially such a diverse bunch as stealth tapers/filmers.

Maybe its best to "live and let live"... You don't like what someone is offering, then don't download it, or delete it afterwards if you don't like it....same as many others already do..... very simple. Live and Let Live.....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
If it was the only or "best" video of a show, then there would be people rightly clamoring for a version without the effects. If the effects were added by the camera during filming, then there is not much that can be done to undo it.
"rightly clamoring" ???

C'mon....

Sorry, I don't believe you have a right to "clamor". (which I'm reading as "demand" , please correct me if wrong.)

You do have a right to politely request.

AND You do have a right to go out and make your own recordings IF you don't like what was offered.

It's always been that simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
..........

Should this site and its seeds be specifically geared towards thwarting ebay sellers, or should it be geared towards the people who advocate and practice the free and open exchange of unreleased live music and the maximum enjoyment of said material?
That's wrong, you have only 2 choices offered here.

How about a third option....Should users of this site have the option to NOT download a show IF they don't like it? And let others take it --- if they wish.





And I'm planning to return to stealth taping this summer. This thread gave me some ideas. Maybe I'll imbed some messages in the master tape. Along with the whistle, that is......
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  #13  
Old 2007-06-21, 12:48 AM
Tubular
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Yes, being polite instead of demanding and hateful is always better. I meant that a lot of people would be asking for a "clean" version. Why mark your recordings? Once they are out there, there isn't much you can do to stop what is done to them. You can stop their sale on auction sites, as all unreleased material belongs to the band and not to the taper or seller. And sites like this have policies against unnecessary, excessive, or "bad" remasters, I think. This community has many standards, like no lossy sources, for example. There is not full consensus on this, as a lot of people think that an all digital SBD source with hi-bitrate mp3 in the lineage would sound a lot better than a 6th gen "lossless" cassette SBD source of the same show. Yes, live and let live is fine if polite requests are refused or ignored, and you can always not download or delete the show if you don't like it. Big thanks to all the tapers/filmers/authors for all their hard work!
  #14  
Old 2007-06-21, 02:26 AM
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Why Not Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
..... Why mark your recordings? Once they are out there, there isn't much you can do to stop what is done to them.
"Why mark your recordings?"

Why not. I did not necessarily make any recordings for 'public distribution" so why not? Your motivations for recording shows or collecting clandestine recordings are probably not the same as mine, so why make any assumption on motivation.




"Once they are out there...."

Agreed.... but then consider "Only if they're out there"....

What makes you so sure that a taper/filmer is "obligated" to put his/her recordings "out there"???

Most tapers/filmers share because they WANT to. If you told tapers/filmers they MUST put all their recordings out there, you'd get laughed at.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
You can stop their sale on auction sites, as all unreleased material belongs to the band and not to the taper or seller.
Only after its "out there" and for some, putting the disclaimer on their recording is their perogative....and maybe their pre-requsite for allowing it to be "out there"....so they imbed it, making it hard to remove.

Or consider the alternative, maybe next time instead of the disclaimer, the taper/filmer declines to share at all; says nothing at all and you don't know that a recording even exists of certain shows.

Until it's "out there", it belongs to the person who possesses the only copy, now doesn't it?

And "clamoring" can't always change that.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
....And sites like this have policies against unnecessary, excessive, or "bad" remasters, I think. This community has many standards, like no lossy sources, for example...........
Policies can always be broken, amended or changed at will; happens all the time.

"NO lossy sourses?".... at TTD? Are you absolutely positive?

I'm sure I saw something allowed in 2007 in the audio torrents forum that included "lossy sourced" material.....

I'd say that consensus or standard will be disregarded as needed, depending on what the material is, even here at TTD....

(Don't take that as a comment from me whether it should or shouldn't have been allowed at TTD, my comment is that 'rules set in stone are meant to be broken'.)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
.... Yes, live and let live is fine if polite requests are refused or ignored, and you can always not download or delete the show if you don't like it. Big thanks to all the tapers/filmers/authors for all their hard work!
Now we agree, it was that simple all along. Live and let live.

And if you really don't like these imbedded messages, I suggest that on the next DVD that you film and author -- I suggest that you lead by example and don't include that imbedded graphic.

Take the high moral ground and lead by example....

Lead by example, you can do it, I'm betting that you can ......
  #15  
Old 2007-06-21, 02:33 AM
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Re: No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos

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