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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #31  
Old 2007-05-09, 07:03 PM
stantheman1976 stantheman1976 is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

The Bottom line:

Sites like this were created to distribute recordings in the purest forms available. If any exceptions are made then this site loses its entire purpose and reason for existence. If MP3 masters or low quality videos were allowed to be shared here it would pollute the purity of the entire community of people who take this seriously.

I applaud the mods here for the dilligence(sp?).

With that said, I have no problems with MP3 for personal use. It's a revolutionary format and has changed th way we listen to music. However, you will never change the fact that MP3 is lossy. It doesn't matter if the source starts as MP3 or is converted down the line. During conversion information is thrown away and can never be regained.
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  #32  
Old 2007-05-10, 03:32 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Thank you Five.

"No MP3 at TTD"

That's what people on this & all other lossless sites need to understand.
There are countless other sites to share mp3 at.

There is also another easy way of sharing them.......if you must!

Create a webpage where members of your own personal sharing community can post links to RaR or zip folders containing mp3, etc. These will have to be uploaded to online storage sites beforehand...........simple, effective & no share ratios involved.

The only downside I can see is if you have members of your little sharing community posting something malicious instead of mp3
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  #33  
Old 2007-05-10, 05:41 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

well this whole thread got me thinking about recent developments and where the future of state of the art trading will take us. I guess that allowing atrac MD aud recordings to be traded came from etree. Especially back in the 1990s MD was the only compact affordable option so a large number of concerts are only available from these lossy tapers. But that is no longer the case. I'm thinking we should have a cutoff date for them and after that only allow atrac MD recordings made before that cutoff. everybody's making the upgrade, and wav recorders are available in all price ranges. I was reading that you can get used edirol r-09s online for $55 these days.

So this got me wondering what new developments in recording technology have happened in the last few years and what trashy little tapes might be getting recorded on equipment that's "below TTD standard" so to speak. It seems almost every concert photo I see that shows the audience has a sea of cell phones held aloft (whereas it used to be lighters back in the day). Okay a lot of those are taking crappy little pictures that are probably not of much interest but many of them are shooting video, a couple minutes at a time here and there during the concert to catch some exciting part of the lightshow or a personal favorite song.

The people shooting these cellphone vids might upload them on youtube and link it in a discussion at the band's board or some fansite board and after a while these links sorta die out. Looking to the future, say the year 2042 when introverted teens are getting into some rare unreleased classic rock from the 00's I can't help but think how great it would be to get a hold of some of those many cell phone vids to document a little bit of the visual aspect of the show. Of course, a nicely-shot stealth video neatly authored to DVD is tops but those aren't showing up for every single show.

Like I was saying before, its llike 8mm was in the 70s, except a little better.

Check out this 8mm compilation from 1972:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A07JZBBL

it jumps all over the place because the guy obviously didn't have enough film or the intention of filming the entire show, but wouldn't you want a little collection of these kind of vids to go with any audio show that you enjoy? These kind of little vids seem disposable now, but in 20+ years...

so as for what I'm suggesting, maybe a forum just for untampered cell phone videos on bittorrent/rapidshare with lineage. It would serve to preserve these clips better than everything getting transcoded to awkward flash videos and stuck on youtube for a brief time only.

I'm on a limb, looking for some input here...
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  #34  
Old 2007-05-10, 11:40 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Five:

I was thinking about the Zeppelin 8mm shots yesterday when considering your proposal. I think your thought that people will enjoy seeing vids of bands today in 40 years is correct.

But I also want to look at the full picture. When making a comparison to 8mm clips from the 70's, that was state of the art back then. We've had discussions at the Hotel and it seems like the consensus that 8mm was pretty much the practical limit of what a consumer would be using back then. Video tape and 16mm was very, very expensive.

Now today, I don't think cell phone vids fit into that category. Video camera's are relatively inexpensive, certainly not out of proportion with general audio recording costs that we demand for audio.

So, yes, I am with you but still trying to reconcile with the overall goal of quality.
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  #35  
Old 2007-05-10, 12:09 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Five - I like your thoughts regarding documenting these events for the future. I like others agree it would be hard to moderate. I also don't think they would work very well in the format of our site. Typically they are not too watchable IMO due to being handheld above your head and I think the torrents would quickly die. The only hope for preservation would be in the few that got them before it died. They work at youtube because of the nature of how long they are stored. I'm not sure what the answer is but I like your thinking.
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  #36  
Old 2007-05-10, 12:15 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

it is an interesting premise, but these videos are recorded at 176*120 sometimes... phones are getting better now, so i guess we are starting to get better resolution. but im pretty sure the codecs used are shitty, and we damn well know the "cameras" are. 8mm film is still in an analog format (not to open that can of worms), but it can be scaled up in resolution... screen resolutions keep getting better and better. shite, 720x480 is already child's play when you get into nicer monitors, imagine what it will be in 40 yrs.

dont get me wrong, im just as much of an archivist as y'all... but cell phone videos look like crap now imho. i know my phone cant take decent video, or anything that i would find acceptable to share anyway.

btw, that 8mm footage is gnarly, thanks!
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  #37  
Old 2007-05-10, 12:52 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

I don't like the idea of cellphone vids. That is so much worse quality for video than mp3 is for audio.

Don't let ttd's standards go down. If they can afford a cellphone, they can afford a miniDV camera to do it up right.
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  #38  
Old 2007-05-10, 06:27 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

allow me a film snob moment , but you can't even compare cell phone vid to 8mm when it comes to quality...8mm far exceeds it...not to mention, "grain" and "pixelation" are two separate things--the former i actually enjoy, the latter is just irritating...and as excited as i was/am to get the Pink Floyd 8mm dvd, i honestly probly won't watch it much...just sayin

but i think the idea is an interesting one Five...it would definitely be worth a go if it was a whole website dedicated just to that...sorta a youtube meets the Archive thing...but i still wouldn't want to see it incorporated into the den
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  #39  
Old 2007-05-10, 10:44 PM
Tubular
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Correct me if I am wrong, but mp3's and MiniDisc's ATRAC don't just cut off the high frequencies. That is just the telltale sign in a SA/FA. They also get rid of information all throughout the spectrum by throwing out info deemed less important, or less noticeable. So the master cassette that cuts off at 15kHz and the mp3 that cuts off at 15kHz are very different. The cassette contains more info, not to mention that it is analog. Analog recordings contain more info than digital recordings, though the size and quality of the analog tape used makes a big difference. It would be interesting to compare (same mics, caps, preamps, cables, location) a purely digital DAT sourced recording w/ a good AD converter (Apogee) > lossless transfer with a master metal cassette recording on a Nakamichi high end deck > @ 24bit/192kHz capture. Also cassettes and reels can be transferred @ 100bit/500kHz or whatever 25 years from now. DAT's can't sound better if they are upsampled and bit expanded (to my knowledge).
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  #40  
Old 2007-05-10, 11:13 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

We all agree trading MP3s made from a lossless source is pure evil, but this discussion should focus on the best source. If given the choice of a good sounding recording from a MP3 recorder or a terrible sounding lossless version from a cheap tape recorder, deep down inside wouldn't you want the better of the two regardless of source?

The idea is to keep things pure, so we want "Source > WAV > FLAC". That's what should be shared, period. If the only source (or best source) is a high quality MP3, then why not consider it acceptable? If the arguement is all lossless sourced records have a full 20kHz tonal spectrum, that's easily disproved on this website and it's the elephant in the room nobody talks about.

Why ban a recording who's specturm ends at 16kHz and is the "best source", yet give an inferior, lossless sourced show a green light? I've read FM broadcasts are compressed (correct me if I'm wrong) which technically makes them lossy ... using TTD's rules they would have to be banned, too.

In conclusion, MP3s have a bad stigma, but calling all MP3s bad is outright audio bigotry. As audio historians, we'll deprive future generations by placing draconian rules on the Master or Best Source.
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  #41  
Old 2007-05-10, 11:36 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

One caveat to the above would be "Source > WAV > FLAC" except if the source is mp3 if it starts mp3 it should stay mp3
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  #42  
Old 2007-05-11, 12:43 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

I guess that bloating an mp3 as is to over 10 times it's original size to share as FLAC/APE/SHN=WAV is as pointless as upsampling those dat tapes in the future to 128bit/256kHz or whatever crazy digital format we'll come up with in the future.
Here's a thought : what about if the mp3 file needed audio restoration work, as many old tapes do, and one performed lots of different post processing things that it needs at 32 bit floating point 96 kHz internal processing, and the resulting file it spits out was (now enhanced at "our" sample rates) cleaned and polished, and now properly mastered...
I know I've performed near miracles on many recordings. Things like adding reverb to a dry soundboard tape to match approximate room acoustics, multiband compression to punch up weak basslines without killing dynamics in vocals, etc...
The resulting file seems like new, and the additional information from the post processing stuff 'pads out' the missing information somewhat.
I'm not saying the original information that was left out will come back, but other similar relevant information would take most of it's place. Heck, some of that info is probably better than it's missing original info!
Case in point, I recently posted a dual MiniDisc audience matrix recording I made of Robert Plant in 2005. Both original recordings had flaws and distortions, but I was able to radically eq and multiband compress (as well as simulate a pass through a HQ tape source in a digital plug-in and run the signals through a tube preamp to further change the signal to a more analog sound) processing at 32bit float at 192 kHz then combine the 2 sources to a 16/44.1 mixdown file...
The results sound like it did to me when I was there, but the original files all sound like crap!

I don't know exactly what I think of am MP3 master. I think just upsampling them to wav is bloating. I think TTD should be free of inferior mp3 trades that could have been lossless and came from lossless. I also think an original recording at mp3 that was properly remastered could very well be as good as anything if it's the best source available (ie the only recording from those mics in that room that day).
Just to say 'never an mp3 no matter what' is elitist, and equivalent to audio racism.
Lots to think about...
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  #43  
Old 2007-05-11, 03:03 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioarchivist
I also think an original recording at mp3 that was properly remastered could very well be as good as anything if it's the best source available (ie the only recording from those mics in that room that day).
Just to say 'never an mp3 no matter what' is elitist, and equivalent to audio racism.
Lots to think about...
I tend to agree, esp. if it is the only recording from that night. Also "best sounding" is highly subjective. Where it gets tricky is when you have several sources from one show and some are recorded at different resolutions (some using lossy compression), locations, and microphone types. Let's say someone runs Neumann U89i's > Tascam HD-P2 @ 24/192 from the taper's section and someone else runs FOB stealth Oktava's or other good but lower cost mics (the only FOB stealth rig running that night) > mp3 recorder or MD ATRAC @16/44.1. Some people may prefer the boomier, more distant hi-res sound from the high $$ rig section tape, and some may prefer the up-close SBD-like sound (although lossy, lower res, and probably chatty) from the el-cheapo FOB stealth. (Also, some people prefer Schoeps DAT section tapes over Schoeps DAT stealth FOB's.) Does TTD ban the lossy compression FOB even though a lot of people may consider it to be the better sounding source? What about webcasts, which may be the only SBD ever available from a show?

Last edited by Tubular; 2007-05-11 at 03:11 AM.
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  #44  
Old 2007-05-11, 06:36 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubular
Does TTD ban the lossy compression FOB even though a lot of people may consider it to be the better sounding source? What about webcasts, which may be the only SBD ever available from a show?
correct, we wouldn't allow the mp3 source show, even if SOME people considered it to sound better...and we don't allow webcast captures either

i think people keep missing our [TTD Staff] point...we're not saying all mp3 sourced shows are shite and you shouldn't collect them...nor are we saying people shouldn't tape shows if all they have is a mp3 recorder...but when TTD first started, it was decided to only deal with lossless recordings, strictly lossless...exceptions were made for MD(M) recordings, but you have to "find the line" and stick with it...

also, you gotta understand the amount of work that goes into moderating a site like TTD...there's about 15 mods [some of which can only pop in occasionally due to "real life" stuff] for over 70,000 members...right now there are close to 2,500 torrents alone, not to mention all the other shows seeded via vines/loops/snail mail trdaes/etc...its difficult enough to keep it all straight as is, but if we allow certain mp3 recordings, but not others, then you have a major nightmare on yer hands...other headaches that would arise would be the numerous people lying about their mp3 set being the only recording, and the research that would have to go into it to verify...there would have to be bitrate standards that all the people complaining about no-mp3s now would complain that 320kbps requirement is too high...and then and then and then.................you get the point

if you have a mp3 master recording by all means share it, just do so at one of the 1000s of other mp3-friendly sites...we're not trying to be snobs, we just found our line and are sticking with it
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  #45  
Old 2007-05-11, 06:52 AM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

another lil something to chew on, if you wanna tape shows and seed em, take the time to save some $ for a few months and do it right...as someone mentioned previously, you can get a digital wav recorder for only a few hundred buckz now...its not like back in the old days where you had to have a good bit of money and audio knowledge...anyone with a few hundred buckz and some time to research online can make a halfway decent recording today...people keep talking about "preserving the shows for years to come" and "an mp3 source is better than no source at all"--but if we're truly interested in being archivists, wouldn't we record them in at least an uncompressed format?!

we get a lot of people who are so adamant about "having to tape" immediately and "need gear but only have 75 dollars to spend"--FORGET IT! its gonna sound like shite, sorry but thats just reality...take the time to save, research, and get the proper gear...i borrowed a recorder for almost a year before buying my own deck because i knew i wanted a higher end HD recorder with quality XLR pre's...sure i coulda bought a JB3 right away and dealt with those 1/8" inputs, but i waited and got what i really wanted--and it was worth it

basically, we don't all need an Earthworks > 744 rig, but buying an old shitty MD deck and a pair of unknown mini mics from ebay for 40 buckz is a waste...better to save for a few months and be happy with the gear you got for years to come...

:climbs off of soapbox:
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