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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2007-05-06, 06:15 PM
Soreballs Soreballs is offline
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Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Are mp3 master recordings allowed on TTD???

I know master minidisk recordings are allowed, but I'm unaware of mp3 recordings being acceptable on any lossless sites.

I've just downloaded one that appears to be a mp3 recording -
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/...ad.php?t=37813

The lineage posted indicates lossless source -

Lineage: iRiver Recorder> wav> FLAC

I can't find anything in the FAQ that say mp3 is acceptable @TTD, even if it's the only source.
I may be wrong, but I'd appreciate it if you could post the link to any such clause statement.

If a mp3 master is acceptable here @TTD, why aren't mp3 master recordings posted with the lineage mp3>WAVE>flac?

There's tons of other sites where mp3 can be uploaded as they truely are i.e mp3, without converting to WAVE then flac!
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  #2  
Old 2007-05-06, 07:23 PM
rhinowing rhinowing is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

iriver records in WAV if its rockboxed. that record is not mp3 sourced. mp3 sources of ANY kind are not allowed at TTD
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  #3  
Old 2007-05-06, 07:34 PM
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LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Saying an MP3 source transferred directly to the computer, saved as wav and converted to flac is lossy is like saying a cassette recording handled the same way is lossy. There is no quality lost, and the torrent was pulled. Its not like it was saved as an MP3, then convert to wav> flac. It was saved as wav, then converted to flac.
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  #4  
Old 2007-05-06, 08:09 PM
mbself mbself is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeifH12345
Saying an MP3 source transferred directly to the computer, saved as wav and converted to flac is lossy is like saying a cassette recording handled the same way is lossy. There is no quality lost, and the torrent was pulled. Its not like it was saved as an MP3, then convert to wav> flac. It was saved as wav, then converted to flac.
The answer is no. Not even if it is the only source of a show.

I too have struggled with these questions as I learned about this whole music trading community. I think the problem with allowing mp3 sourced materials (even if it is from the only known source of a show) is that there is no way to at least verify that a recording has never been compressed multiple times which will in very short order create a very poor recording.

If a recording begins life as an mp3 then it will never spectragraph out as full range (for the sake of most of the files here full range is considered about 20hz to about 20khz). mp3 files drop off at about 15khz to 16khz. if it is converted to wav then recompressed to mp3 it will suffer frequency loss again. not having a baseline full range frequency graph makes it impossible to monitor the purity of the trading pool.


With the growing number of tiny devices capable of recording mp3 files....it would be nice if there were some way to allow them if they are confirmed to be the ONLY KNOWN SOURCE.

However, I understand the policy whole heartedly. I have even returned a device I had purchased whith the intent of recording shows to post here because it only recorded mp3 files. I am now awaiting the delivery of the Zoom h2 when it becomes available.
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  #5  
Old 2007-05-06, 08:29 PM
rhinowing rhinowing is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbself
With the growing number of tiny devices capable of recording mp3 files....it would be nice if there were some way to allow them if they are confirmed to be the ONLY KNOWN SOURCE.
or you can just put these on dime
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  #6  
Old 2007-05-06, 08:32 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbself
if it is converted to wav then recompressed to mp3 it will suffer frequency loss again.
That is not the case.
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  #7  
Old 2007-05-06, 08:47 PM
mbself mbself is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhinowing
or you can just put these on dime

Right.
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  #8  
Old 2007-05-06, 08:57 PM
mbself mbself is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbself
if it is converted to wav then recompressed to mp3 it will suffer frequency loss again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LeifH12345
That is not the case.

I think it probably is......I am sure that one of the mod's or one of the more technically proficient members can probably produce documentation of this fact. I know that multiple compressions and decompressions produces further frequency loss and digital artifacts.

The very title of "lossy compression" suggests that something is lost in the translation.

The whole point of the lossless codecs (shn, flac, ape...) is so that no matter how many times you convert between wav and these types of file...the conversion back to wav always produces a carbon copy of the wav.

If I find time during the next week or so I will do a test conversion of an mp3 file to wav, take a spectragraph, then go wav>mp3>wav>mp3>wav and take another spectragraph and I can promise you there will be deterioration of the original signal.

If I do the same thing from flac>wav>flac>wav>shn>wav>ape>wav there will be a verifiably identical copy of the first wav in the chain.
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  #9  
Old 2007-05-06, 10:48 PM
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

You don't seem to understand. In this situation, the MP3 is like the cassette in the tape deck. It wasn't saved that way, it was re-recorded if you will, and saved as wav, then converted to flac and posted. There was no quality lost in the transferring and MP3 files were never involved.
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  #10  
Old 2007-05-06, 11:00 PM
rhinowing rhinowing is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

dude, wav>mp3>wav>mp3 is definitely worse quality than wav>mp3
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  #11  
Old 2007-05-07, 03:47 AM
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Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
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Arrow Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Recently, there was an mp3 master sourced Riders On The Storm show posted. It was most likely recorded in mp3 format originally. It was pulled for being lossy. Duh. But it's master was mp3, and there was no better recording made. I don't think it should have been torn down. I guess what it really boils down to is that mp3 is a lossy recording format. If it begins as an mp3, however, things are a bit different.
I am sort of in the camp that thinks if the master recording was an mp3, it ought to be ok, in that a cassette master is ok, or a MiniDisc as a master (ie:format originally recorded to live) is ok. Would an old bootleg vinyl album be turned away? 78 rpm recording? Wax cylindars? I think if it was originally the only recording format, as a master only, it should be allowed. Not encouraged, but allowed.

Having stated my opinion that mp3 masters should not be turned away, starting as an mp3 and converting to wav or flac or any lossless form is kind of a waste of space, I guess. Wasted in that as an mp3 to begin with is small by eliminating certain parts of the music, and bloating the size of the mp3 file to a wav, while not losing any of that original mp3 quality, it doesn't make it any better than the original mp3. It's way bigger, but never worse.

Going the other way, from wav quality to mp3 then back to wav, is definitely a big nono here, as most know. That's where the "lossy" stuff should get tossed in the trash. Going from CD wav audio quality down to mp3 lossy, there is no going back!

If only everyone could upgrade their recording gear to suit YOUR needs!

Sometimes, a shitty walkman was all there was to tape that show in 1978, instead of that Nakamichi deck. Today, sometimes a shitty mp3 recorder is all that's around right then to record with. If that's all there was, I'm gonna be happy with it until that 24bit/96kHz taper falls out of the sky!
While the files' data will be bloated for flac trading, as a master, I think an mp3 would do in a pinch, just as long as the taper promises to think about taping future shows on better gear!


If there's a vote to be had, I vote that the Riders On The Storm torrent (first show with their new singer) be re-allowed and reseeded!
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  #12  
Old 2007-05-07, 04:37 AM
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LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioarchivist
Going the other way, from wav quality to mp3 then back to wav, is definitely a big nono here, as most know. That's where the "lossy" stuff should get tossed in the trash. Going from CD wav audio quality down to mp3 lossy, there is no going back!
That isn't the case though.
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  #13  
Old 2007-05-07, 04:39 AM
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LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioarchivist
If there's a vote to be had, I vote that the Riders On The Storm torrent (first show with their new singer) be re-allowed and reseeded!
Yes. And I do plan on getting beter equipment, but for now, this should be fine.
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  #14  
Old 2007-05-07, 04:57 AM
Soreballs Soreballs is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

I'm glad I started this little debate.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the whole concept of sharing recordings on lossless sites.

Mp3 is a recognised lossy format no matter what you do to it. There's no 2 ways about it.

The 'Riders On The Storm' recording was taped in mp3 format & does not belong on a lossless site; whether it's a master or not.

I gather from what the taper has said; he played back the mp3 in real time on his recorder, while capturing it to his harddrive with WAVE software.
I would say, that this method of conversion to WAVE, is probably worse than letting 'intellegent' software do the mp3 to WAVE conversion for you anyway.

I'm also sure the actual quality will now be lesser than the master mp3 because of the bloating.

There are numurous sites out there where this recording could be shared quite freely as mp3. Here @TTD is not the place!

It's great to share, but please share in the correct places & please supply the correct lineage info where appropriate!
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  #15  
Old 2007-05-07, 05:05 AM
Soreballs Soreballs is offline
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Re: Are mp3 master recordings allowed @TTD???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeifH12345
Yes. And I do plan on getting beter equipment, but for now, this should be fine.
I'm not familiar with iRiver H10, but I know some iRiver models can be upgraded with the 'rockbox' 'firmware' to enable WAVE recording.

Maybe some other knowledgable member here, might be able to shed some light on the situ before you shell out your hard cash for another recorder.

I can only personally wish you the best of luck
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