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  #1  
Old 2006-11-22, 04:27 PM
Spider_Web's Avatar
Spider_Web Spider_Web is offline
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Lightbulb Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

My take on music sharing via bittorrent and the Internet is to preserve and document the recording history as well as share things "AS IS"! Ban remasters! Why do some people feel it's necessary to "remaster" a recording and re-distribute it? Anyone these days can "remaster" a show on their computer. That's fine, but don't circulate it - you are taking away from the integrity of the recording. Polluting the waters. Remasters should be banned from distribution. Leave things AS IS. I'm not the only one who has voiced their displeasure with so called "remasters" by average Joe's who have computers and think they have an ear for sound. I personally don't give a rat's ass if someone's EQ job makes the sound better to a few people - it's all arbitrary anyway. You have now tainted the recording. Polluted the water. Let the listener adjust the controls if they choose.

Also, ban the unknown cassette lineage! I hope people realize that the term "lossless" means a whole heck of a lot more than just that a recording has never been converted to a lossy digital format such as MP3 or MiniDisc. Lossless truly means that one has a non-manipulated recording that has never suffered any analog or digital loss. The entire lossless thing is a joke. So much garbage gets torrented, but becuase it has never been converted to MP3 or MiniDisc, it's OK? So many shows are taken from unknown sources. Generation unknown. Yeah, that's real good.

Gee, let's torrent show from 1988 from a cassette that was bought at a flea market 5 years ago. It's probably been high-speed dubbed 7 times, and is 10 generations away from the master cassette. But because it's never been converted to MP3 or MiniDisc, it's considered lossless and OK to torrent. How absolutely preposterous.

Any true master tape or hard drive recording is lossless. A master DAT tape that has been dubbed to another DAT tape via an optical or coaxial cable (a clone) is lossless. A digital conversion to MP3 is lossy. Anything that goes through an analog signal is lossy. A master analog cassette that gets dubbed to another cassette has lost quality. First, second and third generation cassettes aren't bad; one knows the generational history, and it's not always possibly to source a recording back to the master cassette or reel. Don't let "silver" CD's fool you, they can very easily be lossy - and most are. Bootleg companies are evil! Most of them could care less what source they use to press a show on CD. It's all about money. In most cases, we have no idea what generation tape was used in creating a bootleg "silver" CD. We should all prefer tape or digital sourced material with generational lineage as opposed to the bootleg releases.

Converting a show from analog to digital technically is lossy, but one has to get it into the digital domain. The analog to digital conversion if done with good equipment loses less than an analog to analog copy. When a show is converted from analog to digital, it should be played back on a decent cassette deck or reel to reel machine with clean heads, and a good analog to digital converter should be used. Once the recording is in the digital domain, it should now be converted from wave to a lossless format such as FLAC or SHN, and LEFT ALONE. The same goes for DAT or digital hard drive recordings. Convert them to lossless FLAC or SHN, and THAT'S IT.

Also, list the type of recording equipment and unit model and well as microphones used (if you know them) when seeding or trading a show. And most people here do.

Traders Den does the best of all the BT sites is regards to promoting quality. But letting an unknown cassette sourced show be seeded completely defeats the entire purpose. Dimeadozen has turned into a freakin' germ pool, and it gets tiring wading through all the piss. I know more "pro lineage" people are here on Traders Den.

Thanks for reading my opinion. What's yours?

Last edited by Spider_Web; 2006-11-22 at 04:57 PM.
  #2  
Old 2006-11-22, 05:24 PM
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v8juice v8juice is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

I'm for banning so called remasters. Let me decide if I want to fuck things up, please. In order to do that, I'd need the original...
  #3  
Old 2006-11-22, 07:42 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

While I do agree with a lot of what you wrote, I do have these comments:

Remasters - we do ask that people label these as such and we do like to get remastering notes. Usually these are remasters of things that had been previously torrented and so the 'raw' version is already out there and available. I have a couple of remastered shows that I actually prefer over the original, but they are done by people that are 'known' for their remastering abilities. I also have some shows that I prefer the 'raw' mix and not the remastered version. I have never tried my hand at remastering and never will, so I'm glad I do have those few remastered versions I obtained. But, as I said, I *know* they are remastered and I would never trade them as anything else (if I were still trading). Back when I was trading, I actually had some people ask for the raw source over the remastered source, so that's what they got. Anyway, what I'm really trying to say is that I don't have a problem with remastered stuff as long as it's labeled as remastered.

Unknown cassette lineage - I'm a bit iffy on this. I think it's great if someone actually does know the generation on a cassette, however we are usually talking about shows from the 70s and 80s here and most people just didn't know or keep track of that back then (most, not all). So, if someone has some cassette stashed away in storage and they decide to transfer it and torrent it, we have allowed it.

Silver CDs - yes, we know that the bootleggers are just out to make money and so they press whatever generation of the recording they finally manage to get their hands on. We have pulled shows torrented from a Silver CD for being lossy. We always (whenever we notice or it's brought to our attention) pull shows if it is any generation removed from the Silver. If you have a show you want to torrent from a Silver CD, it must be from the actual Silver CD. We have pulled many shows from having a CDR in the lineage after the Silver CD. We don't disallow Silver CDs however because their actually are some tapers who tape to sell to the bootleggers. So, we do want to liberate those.

Those are my immediate thoughts on this. I'll post if I have most to add after rereading your post when I have more time.
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  #4  
Old 2006-11-22, 08:17 PM
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Spider_Web Spider_Web is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Lynne: I understand your thoughts on the remasters, hopefully the people here at TTD do mark things as such. I have more of an issue with people on DIME who grab a recording within a day, screw with it on their computer, and reseed as THEIR remastered version. That's about them wanting glorification, not the music. Next thing you know, you have 5 "remasters" by 5 people floating around.

I also understand that back in the 70's, 80's, 90's (and sadly even now), people haven't always kept track of their analog cassette generations. I've been taping and trading for over 20 years, I've taped over 200 shows, have over 1000 DAT tapes, and over 3000 analog tapes. (Yes, I've been obsessed with the live music experience for most of my life - and thank god my wife puts up with an attic full of tape). Anyway, I was fortunate enough to make some great contacts back in the days of mail trading, and I was able to keep track of the generations for most of my shows. Obviously, there were cases where someoene had a show that I wanted but didn't know the generation. It's more about communicating to people that the SOURCE of the recording is important. If forced to choose, I'd rather take a Jimi Hendrix audience tape that was taken directly from the master and converted to MP3 than the same tape taken from an unknown analog generation and converted to FLAC. I suppose the choice is up to the downloader, and as long as it's labled as "C?" (cassette generation unknown), people know what they could be in for.

My purist side gets the best of me sometimes.

Anyway, keep up the good work here. Slowly but surely I'm gonna convert the cream of my collection to FLAC, and seed things here on TTD. Especially some Zeppelin stuff from master tape sources. Culling stuff from master sources makes the "silver" cds not so interesting!
  #5  
Old 2006-11-22, 11:33 PM
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Lou Lou is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

I'm OK with unknown gen cassette if there's no known gen out there of the show. What I absolutely can't stand (and will not download) is this:

unknown gen cass>unknown transfer>CDR(x)>EAC>WAV>FLAC

I don't see the point of torrenting something that you are COMPLETELY clueless about.

As far as remastering goes, I don't care for it but I wouldn't ban it so long as the remastering process is spelled out in detail. If the lineage however simply states it was "remastered" with nothing more, I'd ban it because that's a crap lineage.
  #6  
Old 2006-11-23, 04:35 PM
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider_Web
My take on music sharing via bittorrent and the Internet is to preserve and document the recording history as well as share things "AS IS"! Ban remasters! .........

Also, ban the unknown cassette lineage!
....
My friend, my friend, where were you when we were discussing Led Zeppelin lineages?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou
I'm OK with unknown gen cassette if there's no known gen out there of the show. ...
C'mon, Lou...what's your best guess?

What do you think:

What percent of the circulating body of Led Zeppelin recordings have verifiable lineages?

And what percent of them Van Halen recordings have verifiable lineages?

  #7  
Old 2006-11-23, 10:01 PM
Fact
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider_Web
Thanks for reading my opinion. What's yours?
I am also for banning resampling/converting sample rates. If the DAT is 48 khz then share it 48khz whether it be 48 khz flacs or making a DVD out of them. Time to get with the 21st century. For Zeppelin I've only seen Bobbyplant and Presence do this so far.
  #8  
Old 2006-11-23, 11:46 PM
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fact
I am also for banning resampling/converting sample rates. If the DAT is 48 khz then share it 48khz whether it be 48 khz flacs or making a DVD out of them. Time to get with the 21st century. For Zeppelin I've only seen Bobbyplant and Presence do this so far.
Well, so, how many Led Zeppelin master tapes were originally recorded on DAT?

Last edited by freezer; 2006-11-23 at 11:54 PM.
  #9  
Old 2006-11-24, 12:06 AM
Fact
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

None. Are you saying all analog recordings should never be brought into the digital domain? I'm just saying that once a recording is sampled into the digital world resampling should not be done.
  #10  
Old 2006-11-24, 12:10 AM
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fact
None. Are you saying all analog recordings should never be brought into the digital domain?
Nope.

You may be misunderstanding something.

How did you extrapolate that idea from what I said?
  #11  
Old 2006-11-24, 09:06 AM
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Spider_Web Spider_Web is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Do BobbyPlant and Presence know the digital lineage of stuff they are converting? All my Zeppelin on cassette, CDR and DAT (200 of them) all have proper lineage. As an example, not CM>DAT(X). For instance, my 7/21/69 is CM>DAT>DAT.

And for the most part, I also know the names of the people that were involved in the lineage (taper, converter, traders, etc..). 20+ years of this stuff. Documentation is huge.
  #12  
Old 2006-11-24, 09:34 AM
the phantom engineer the phantom engineer is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider_Web
All my Zeppelin on cassette, CDR and DAT (200 of them) all have proper lineage.

For instance, my 7/21/69 is CM>DAT>DAT.

And for the most part, I also know the names of the people that were involved in the lineage (taper, converter, traders, etc..). 20+ years of this stuff. Documentation is huge.
if you are going to share these shows, can you post this information and let us see what will become available?

it would be interesting to hear what (if any) upgrades you have

thanks
  #13  
Old 2006-11-24, 10:53 AM
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Spider_Web Spider_Web is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

I will be sharing lots of things; unfortunately time is limited due to two little ones running around the house!
  #14  
Old 2006-11-24, 02:57 PM
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider_Web
Do BobbyPlant and Presence know the digital lineage of stuff they are converting? All my Zeppelin on cassette, CDR and DAT (200 of them) all have proper lineage. As an example, not CM>DAT(X). For instance, my 7/21/69 is CM>DAT>DAT.

And for the most part, I also know the names of the people that were involved in the lineage (taper, converter, traders, etc..). 20+ years of this stuff. Documentation is huge.
Cool......

.......so what lineage do you have for Led Zeppelin 2/28/75 Baton Rouge?
  #15  
Old 2006-11-24, 03:03 PM
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Spider_Web Spider_Web is offline
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Re: Ban Unknown Analog Lineage and Remasters!

Baton Rouge C1>D2 (cassette1>DAT>DAT). I'm guessing you either did that one Freezer, or know who did. You may have already posted this info, but it would be cool to know what type of deck and mics were used for that show, and for the '72 Stones Mobil, '73 Zep NO and '75 Fleetwood Mac NO. If you want to know who I got my DAT from for the Baton Rouge, PM me, I don't like to publically mention old traders. Has the Baton Rouge been circulated from the master>FLAC? It's a great show - Bon Soir!
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