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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2005-01-19, 07:05 PM
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Question about a Source

I've got another tricky (at least for me!) source to question all you smart people about. This is the Counting Crows show from 07/04/2004 in Grant Park, Chicago. It was broadcast live over the radio. I'm posting the source info and spectral and frequency analyses below. These are taken from an original FLAC file. The frequency analysis looks good to me, but the spectral analysis cuts off low, and I am just curious as to why. Thanks for the help in advance.

-Phil

Counting Crows
07-04-2004
Petrillo Music Shell,
Grant Park,
Taste of Chicago,
Chicago, IL

Source: FM SBD > coax > Audigy Soundcard > Soundforge 6.0 > CD Wave > flac

This show is far from perfect. I was able to get the They Might
Be Giants set no problem, but this one had drop-outs (I was able to fix
just about all of them) and some static that was on both channels.
It really isn't too bad though. Im not a huge fan so I have no idea
on these titles.

1. Intro >
2. The Rain King
3. Mrs. Potter's Lullabye *
4. Mr. Jones
5. Big Yellow Taxi
6. Happy Birthday to Matt
7. Daylight Fading
8. Accidentally In Love
9. Four White Stallions
10. Omaha
11. Miami
12. Anna Begins
13. A Long December
14. Ordinary Girl
15. Sullivan Street
16. Hangin Around
17. Holiday in Spain

*some static present
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  #2  
Old 2005-01-19, 09:45 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

Spectrum looks like an FM, which means not a whole heck of a lot beyond 15 kilohertz. What you're seeing in the Freq, is a bit of noise, way down in the mud. I mean, if you look at the graph, you'll see the noise is -24db below your HF cutoff.

It doesn't look odd for an FM recording to me.
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  #3  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:00 PM
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irishcrazy2005 irishcrazy2005 is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

Yeah, I guess that I was just confused because I felt like the source info was saying that it was pre-FM. I guess not.

-Phil
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  #4  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:15 PM
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Re: Question about a Source

I don't think anyone should tell you anything until you tell me about this:

I was able to get the They Might Be Giants set no problem.

Man, I would love to get that!

Anyway, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but from what I understand, FM cuts out around 15 or 16, but you won't have a sudden haircut like you would with mp3s.
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  #5  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:20 PM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

The only strange thing is that wacky little spike at 18.5. Looks a bit like video, possibly from a Cable TV/FM feed

I don't know why people quote lineage as "PreFM". If it's a SBD, it's a SBD, broadcasting it thru an FM chain has nothing to do with anything, if you're recording a full bandwidth signal from the board.

The only thing that PreFM means to me is that the show was indeed broadcast, and therefore is in wide circulation. I think lineage should only include the signal chain specifics, and leave the "circumstances" or details about the recording to the show notes.

In reality, the "FM" factor in a capture has far, far more bearing on the quality of a recording than you might think. FM Tuners have a really wide range of quality, and sonics are affected by a number of factors, including terrain, weather, and the overall quality of the tuner electronics. A true lineage of an FM recording would (at minimum) specify the equipment used for reception.

BTW, you gonna torrent this ? I'd like to hear an '04 Crows SBD....
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  #6  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:30 PM
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
I don't think anyone should tell you anything until you tell me about this:

I was able to get the They Might Be Giants set no problem.

Man, I would love to get that!
Unfortunately, I did not grab that set when I downloaded this one. I'm sure that it is floating around out there though. I forget where I originally downloaded this, but it was a torrent somewhere. I was at this show, and all three bands that played were great!

-Phil
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  #7  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:31 PM
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo2u
BTW, you gonna torrent this ? I'd like to hear an '04 Crows SBD....
I may torrent this (even though my uploads are capped around 20-30 depending on the time of day). However, I am still confused about the legitimacy of this source. Is this indeed a soundboard, or is it an FM recording?

-Phil
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  #8  
Old 2005-01-19, 10:50 PM
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Re: Question about a Source

People have been calling broadcasts (FM) soundboards for a long time (I think my old list that I haven't updated except to change a couple of links still says that!). They label them as such because the original capture came from a sounboard, but after you broadcast it, you have seen what happens to the frequency.
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  #9  
Old 2005-01-19, 11:06 PM
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishcrazy2005
I may torrent this (even though my uploads are capped around 20-30 depending on the time of day). However, I am still confused about the legitimacy of this source. Is this indeed a soundboard, or is it an FM recording?

-Phil
It's an FM.

I'm not the arbiter of torrent quality here, but my guess would be that unless there's a direct SBD copy in circulation, the FM will have to suffice for now.
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  #10  
Old 2005-01-19, 11:28 PM
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irishcrazy2005 irishcrazy2005 is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo2u
It's an FM.

I'm not the arbiter of torrent quality here, but my guess would be that unless there's a direct SBD copy in circulation, the FM will have to suffice for now.
Well, I am pretty sure that I saw in the FAQ that FMs are fine, so I will probably seed this. Thanks for the help!

-Phil
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  #11  
Old 2005-01-20, 03:15 AM
ffooky ffooky is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo2u
The only strange thing is that wacky little spike at 18.5. Looks a bit like video, possibly from a Cable TV/FM feed
That's the pilot tone, which is extremely common on recordings from FM.
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  #12  
Old 2005-01-20, 06:53 AM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffooky
That's the pilot tone, which is extremely common on recordings from FM.
Right you are. Forgot about the pilot.

Google is amazing. http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...t21/page1.html
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  #13  
Old 2005-01-20, 08:32 AM
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishcrazy2005
Well, I am pretty sure that I saw in the FAQ that FMs are fine, so I will probably seed this. Thanks for the help!

-Phil
Fm is absolutely fine, unless a commonly circulating Pre-FM (sorry Wazoo, I know you hate that term, but it has it's place) is making the rounds. Once again, we're looking "as good as it gets" quality here, and the broadcast is going to be the best that traders are going to get their hands on, so seed away.
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  #14  
Old 2005-01-20, 08:36 AM
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Re: Question about a Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo2u
In reality, the "FM" factor in a capture has far, far more bearing on the quality of a recording than you might think. FM Tuners have a really wide range of quality, and sonics are affected by a number of factors, including terrain, weather, and the overall quality of the tuner electronics. A true lineage of an FM recording would (at minimum) specify the equipment used for reception.
This is a fantastic point. I have downloaded some simply awful FM captures, where it sounds more like the person is recording it from a boombox FM radio rather than a high quality FM reciever. I've gotten some extremely ugly harmonics on some FM recordings, and when the hardware isn't specified, I can only assume that the equipment sucks or the taper is an idiot...probably both.

Point being, don't always assume that since you have an FM you have the best there is. There is probably someone else who taped the broadcast who did a better job, especially when you get rought sounding or noisy FM captures.

Luckily, I mostly trade in jazz these days, and people within that group generally capture FM stuff with decent equipment, so just seeing FM in the lineage is enough for me to know it's going to be good quality. Outside of jazz circles, these things have considerably lower reliability rates.
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