The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2005-01-19, 12:01 PM
lzyltnin lzyltnin is offline
170.80 GB/93.40 GB/0.55
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
.wav Audio only DVD?

Anybody done anything like this? I'm trying to consolidate my shows so I don't have a godzillion CDR discs laying around. So.. my .wav files are PCM encoded for show X.. and show X consists of 1.6gb in .wav (PCM). I should be able to burn that show to a single DVD and play that DVD back on a player that supports .wav payback, correct?? And to go one further, I could put multiple shows on on DVD? Or am I just dreaming?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2005-01-19, 03:59 PM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Just dreaming, sorry. First of all, a CD does not play back .wav, but rather a slightly different incarnation of PCM (pulse-code modulated) audio. Your CD player wouldn't know what to do with a .wav file, but CD audio it likes.

That being said, DVD-Audio is not the same as CD, and therefore this will not work. In fact, to make a DVD-Audio disc, you'll need to encode it to a lossy format, and therefore render it untradeable.

I've gone down the road you're going down now before, and came away quite dissapointed myself. Look towards to the future: build yourself some kind of system capable of play FLAC files, either on hard drives or on DVD. An old laptop computer or one of the commercial products on the market are options. This clear up your "discs laying around" problem quite a bit more, and also make sure you're ready when traders finally abandon PCM audio completely in favor of losslessly compressed data files (hopefully soon).
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2005-01-19, 04:17 PM
jcrab66's Avatar
jcrab66 jcrab66 is offline
We all walk the Long Road....
75.63 GB/483.42 GB/6.39
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Planet Bootleg
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

i abandoned audio trading a long time ago, i wish everyone else would do the same....
__________________
If you want to see a damn good live show check out THIS band.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2005-01-19, 06:48 PM
katnapz's Avatar
katnapz katnapz is offline
What'cha Got There?
208.73 GB/1.99 TB/9.77
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Depending on your purpose behind burning audio on a DVD....

If you want to combine your shows on to less discs (DVD's) for the purpose of abandoning your original discs (i.e., trade the original/sell) then RD is correct...it's not worth it as either encoding scheme (PCM or DTS) is a lost cause. You're basically converting to mp3....meaning lossy.

If you want to combine for the purpose of travel/convenience/etc...say, you spend the occasional weekend at great aunt Martha's house and she only now got a DVD player because you gave it for Xmas so that's the only way you could listen to music as she doesn't know FLAC....well, there are ways to do it.
You can use a program called BeSweet to convert your wav to a ".ac3" extension....OR ".wav" files that are encoded DTS files. Using some fiddling you can then burn these as an Audio-DVD.

If you don't mind spending some $$$, you can go the easy route however and purchase Audio DVD Creator (www.audio-dvd-creator.com). It's actually pretty nice as you can rip whatever audio CD's you want and burn them at different encodes (remember-lossy!) to fit more/less on each DVD.
Two interesting features of the program:
You can convert your tracks to 5.1 DTS (however, don't get the idea that you're going to have the footsteps from "Dark Side" running around your head from a stereo source...) Best I can tell from working with the program it's something of a mirror L and R channels. I have enough "real" surround sound material without messing with the fake stuff so I haven't played with that option much.
It will also burn your mp3's to DVD for playback as an Audio-DVD. Note, before anyone says that's nothing, you might be confusing this with burning mp3's on a CDR and playing them in your DVD player....as far as I know the feature of playing mp3's from a DVDR is not all that common (yet) so think of being able to tote along a couple hundred (maybe thousands?...I haven't counted that high) songs to Aunt Martha's for a weekend Also nice if you're going to a party as you create a "front page" for it where you can select the album(s) you want to play using the remote control.

Wish I could point you to an easy free solution, but that's about the best I can offer. BeSweet can do it, but you'll sweat alot learning the process...and you "can" create you own menu too using the free-way, but again, a long learning curve.
__________________
...Catnip is my middle name...
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2005-01-19, 08:31 PM
New Homebrew
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDawg
That being said, DVD-Audio is not the same as CD, and therefore this will not work. In fact, to make a DVD-Audio disc, you'll need to encode it to a lossy format, and therefore render it untradeable.
Well, I'm not so sure about that. The audio component of a video DVD, or "DVD-Audio" is not necessarily lossy.

You have some options. First off, the audio on a DVD can be encoded losslessly as PCM, only the sample rate needs to be 48kHz. If you have a 48kHz DAT, or are working from an analog source that you can transfer at 48, then you don't have to make any changes. You can have one long wav file with nominal video content and author a DVD for "listening" in your home DVD player.

You could also make a true DVD audio disc, with only audio content. You have options with sample rates, 48kHz or higher... so again it's best to work from an analog source where you have the choice.

If you are using something shared here, most of which is 44.1kHz for cd burning, you'll need to add all the songs together, convert to 48kHz, and then author into a DVD with a chapter stop for each song. Shouldn't take too long once you get good at it. The only caveat is that you've increased the sample rate from 44.1 to 48 so you have altered things and it's probably best not to trade that since I'll bet someone out there has a true 48kHz source if it was taped or converted to DAT at some point.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2005-01-19, 08:33 PM
New Homebrew
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapz
You can use a program called BeSweet to convert your wav to a ".ac3" extension....OR ".wav" files that are encoded DTS files. Using some fiddling you can then burn these as an Audio-DVD.
You don't need to compress your wav files to ac3 to be able to use them on DVD, especially if there is only audio on the DVD. You can fit hours and hours of stereo PCM audio on one 4.7GB DVDr.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2005-01-20, 04:26 AM
NINJA's Avatar
NINJA NINJA is offline
Banned
795.31 MB/607.86 MB/0.76
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

try this :

http://www.discwelder.com/pdfs/dvdAudioWhitepaper.pdf



and this program !


http://www.discwelder.com/


Welcome to discWelder CHROME II - the creative way to produce DVD-Audio discs from your high-resolution audio files.

discWelder CHROME II offers an extensive feature set for the production of highly interactive DVD Audio discs for release to market, including import of all Linear PCM formats supported in the DVD-A specification, MLP import, our exclusive "gapless" PCM playback, "gapless" MLP playback, user-defined menu graphics, a hierarchy of multiple selections menus, slide show graphics to accompany audio tracks, DLT output, and video_ts import for "hybrid" DVD-A / DVD-V formatting capability. And second generation CHROME II adds an array of innovative new feautures such as DSD audio conversion and automatic mirroring of the video zone.




DVD-Video DVD-Audio
Stereo Audio
Options
Data-compressed (encoded):
Dolby Digital (AC-3)
OR
Uncompressed: PCM at 16,
20 or 24-bit resolution,
sample rate of 48 or 96 kHz
Uncompressed PCM at 16, 20, or
24-bit resolution. Sample rates
from 44.1 (CD standard) to 192
kHz
Multichannel
Surround Audio
Options
5.1 discrete surround using
Dolby Digital (AC-3) and /
or DTS data compression
6-channel surround,
uncompressed, at resolution up to
24 bits and sample rate of 96 kHz
Visual
Presentation
Full motion video or still
pictures (fixed presentation)
Still pictures only, with user
navigation independent of audio.
Video may be added to create
DVD-V / DVD-A hybrid discs.
Interactivity Extensive user interaction
possible.
Limited user interaction possible
Comparison of the features of DVD-Video and DVD-Audio formats. Both formats are
capable rendering stereo audio at fidelity higher than that of CD. For multi-channel
surround, DVD-Video requires data compression - Dolby Digital (AC-3) or DT S - while
DVD-Audio can render up to six channels of uncompressed audio at high bit- and
sample-rates.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2005-01-20, 04:35 AM
NINJA's Avatar
NINJA NINJA is offline
Banned
795.31 MB/607.86 MB/0.76
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

here is a really good article which explains mlp

whicjh is like flac !
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #9  
Old 2005-01-20, 01:06 PM
thinwhiteduke
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

I've used this guide (CDDA on DVD, aka Audio DVD-Video) to compile a Video and Audio DVD on the same disc. A bit long winded as I was adding still pictures to go along with the music, but it works.

Also this software does the same thing as the one NINJA posted above. It's from the makers of DVD2one.

DVD2one Audio Remaster
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #10  
Old 2005-01-20, 01:49 PM
Presence Presence is offline
41.09 GB/29.31 GB/0.71
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapz
it's not worth it as either encoding scheme (PCM or DTS) is a lost cause. You're basically converting to mp3....meaning lossy.
DVD's LPCM encoding is not lossy. I was shocked as hell to read that.

Apparently some people need to do some research.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #11  
Old 2005-01-20, 06:47 PM
katnapz's Avatar
katnapz katnapz is offline
What'cha Got There?
208.73 GB/1.99 TB/9.77
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Presence
DVD's LPCM encoding is not lossy. I was shocked as hell to read that.

Apparently some people need to do some research.
...apparently so...

-Correction noted-
__________________
...Catnip is my middle name...
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #12  
Old 2005-01-21, 09:26 AM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Yes, LPCM is not lossy. You can "trick" the DVD player into thinking it's playing a video and just include LPCM audio within the MPEG-2 video. This is somewhat of a frustrating fix to do though. The original poster was looking for an easy, accepted way of creating a long CD-style DVD-Audio disc, and as we've shown here, this is just not supported by the technology.

DVD2One is an interesting program which seems to be able to make this forcing simple, but also makes some rather rash claims that will only believed by the ignorant. Upsampling and increasing the resolution does not increase the quality unless the original audio was recorded that way. In fact, and such resampling is going to decrease the sound quality, however if done right it can be relatively imperceptible.

I stand by my original statement that it is best to keep the audio identical and compress to FLAC. I would certainly not accept 44.1KHz PCM @ 16-Bit > 96KHz PCM @ 24-bit > 44.1KHz PCM @ 16-Bit in the lineage of any recording being seeded here, as any resampling is going to cause quality loss in a recording, and making unecessary transtion like this is unacceptible.

It is also, by the definintion of the word, a "lossy" transfer. Check your md5s before and after, and they'll be different.
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #13  
Old 2005-01-21, 11:22 AM
Bomber's Avatar
Bomber Bomber is offline
17.28 GB/43.13 GB/2.50
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lzyltnin
Anybody done anything like this? I'm trying to consolidate my shows so I don't have a godzillion CDR discs laying around. So.. my .wav files are PCM encoded for show X.. and show X consists of 1.6gb in .wav (PCM). I should be able to burn that show to a single DVD and play that DVD back on a player that supports .wav payback, correct?? And to go one further, I could put multiple shows on on DVD? Or am I just dreaming?
Have a look at this :-

http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/

It would appear to do what you require. It creates Audio DVDs (not to be confused with DVD-Audio).

I have a "copy" of it but have not had a chance to try it yet.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #14  
Old 2005-01-21, 11:40 AM
RainDawg's Avatar
RainDawg RainDawg is offline
Renegade Geek
10.20 GB/20.72 GB/2.03
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Passing swiftly through The Moor
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Bomber....nice link. This looks like software that will absolutely do what the poster is looking for.

Allow me to just reiterate that making this transfer will render the material untradeable, as it will perform non-reversible (read "lossy") transformations on the music. Unless the original material was recorded/mastered at 96kHz/24bits, please make sure that you store original data files for further seeding/trading purposes, and only use these DVDs for "personal use" in the same way you would traditionally use other lossy formats.
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #15  
Old 2005-01-21, 12:10 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
6.36 GB/18.25 GB/2.87
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: .wav Audio only DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDawg
Bomber....nice link. This looks like software that will absolutely do what the poster is looking for.

Allow me to just reiterate that making this transfer will render the material untradeable, as it will perform non-reversible (read "lossy") transformations on the music. Unless the original material was recorded/mastered at 96kHz/24bits, please make sure that you store original data files for further seeding/trading purposes, and only use these DVDs for "personal use" in the same way you would traditionally use other lossy formats.
A pedant would ask why is that any less tradeable than 48KHz DAT recordings downsampled to 44.1KHz resolution? Upsampling does less damage than downsampling.

But I understand your point. My point is that it would be nice to see more 48KHz DAT files traded at their native resolution - espeically as tools like dvd-audio-creator (and cheap DVD-Audio authoring tools like DiscWelder Bronze) are starting to give us alternatives to the 25+ year old Red Book standard.

Just to clarify, DVD-Video supports 2 channels of 16/20/24-bit PCM audio at 48KHz or 96KHz. DVD-Audio supports multiple channels of 16/20/24-bit PCM audio at 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz and 192Khz (and maybe others). However, most DVD players don't support DVD-Audio.

Last edited by 4candles; 2005-01-21 at 12:19 PM.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:20 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts