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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2006-05-12, 09:51 AM
*dJ* *dJ* is offline
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Some opinions/help, please.

Today I recieved some shows and some are suspictious to me.

The shows are from one of my favorite bands and I like to get some opinions about the recordings. Especially since the lineages are not known

Show 1
Guano Apes - Gurten 2000
source info: fm
sa:

fa:

sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I5XKZ8C6

Seems okay to me

Show 2
Guano Apes - Bizarre 2001
source info: unknown
sa:

fa:

sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XNSUEMH3

My thoughts/notes:

I know this show is broadcasted on TV, not sure if this could explain the 10-12 kHz missing, maybe a bad [?] tranfer from TV.

Filter is used?

Show 3
Guano Apes - Porto 2002 (Student Academic Festival)
source info: audience rating: B plus
sa:

fa:

sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3VYKVGH9

any ideas about source? md or dat maybe??

Show 4
Guano Apes - Lisbon 2002 (Student Academic Festival)
source info: audience rating: B minous
sa:

fa:

sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TDOSJGY0

Blockiness.. mp3 sourced or md

Show 5
Guano Apes - Lisbon 2003 (coliseum)
source info: Micro Panasonic RP VC 200 to MD Sony MZR 70
sa:

fa:

sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N6IMFXEN

bad mic or low recording settings/mode?? It's an old md model...
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  #2  
Old 2006-05-12, 09:15 PM
slimeruky slimeruky is offline
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

1. Definitely FM, but is suspect to me. Check out this part in the FA. Some pretty clear blockiness.


2. Weird for sure. The whole damn thing is mirrored around the 10-12 split. Really bad transfer or upsample is my (barely educated) guess.


3. I think it's lossy, looks like MD a bit but I don't find the upturned parapets in the blocky parts.

4. Wayyyy lossy. Smells like mp3.


5. Well first of all, it's mono. Looks and sounds lossless to me, maybe recorded with only one mic and some whacky recording setting where the recorder only got a tiny bit of the sound.

So those are my guesses. Correct me if I'm wrong folks.
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  #3  
Old 2006-05-12, 11:07 PM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

1. yeah, that is lossy and has to be from the station or you wouldn't see the carrier up top. If it was encoded after recording and/or digitization there would be black up top. also gotta say that is an awful mix the way the hihats are breathing, but that's off-topic

2. this is a rare case, I've only seen it a few times. it is a mirror image with the "death star groove" down the middle. I have a vhs I transferred about a year and a half ago that a friend of mine taped off Canadian tv around 1997 and I took the audio from my hifi vcr into a soundblaster live! card and it looked exactly like that. I can't explain it, but I'm quite sure it is lossless.

3. that's gotta be MD (atrac) transferred thru the analog input of a soundcard.

4. can't really tell with this one... there's no direct evidence I can find other than the cutoff. I would guess it is the result of a terrible transfer due to the sample rate being set 12kHz which is the kind of setting you would use for speech. I wouldn't trade this, see if you can track down the master and get a proper transfer of it. or trade it one on one with a heavy warning and only if the is the only known source on earth!
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  #4  
Old 2006-05-13, 07:15 AM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
..see if you can track down the master and get a proper transfer of it.
I wish I could, there is pretty much available in mp3 from this band, but now I want to set-up a proper lossless collection, which is pretty hard

1) Do you mean the radiostation did not broadcast the show properly. Thus there won't be a better source around? or is did the recorder something wrong and it turned out bit lossy/blockiness?

2) ok, so it's safe to trade it [of course, I would tell them about the weird sa/fa and five's experience/explanation]

3) also okay, asuming there is no other source then the MD?

4) Will try to track the taper, until then non-trading/trade with warning (sound isn't so good anyway).

5) Will also try to track down the taper, to find out if this is the best out there (altought mp3 recording could have been better)
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  #5  
Old 2006-05-13, 08:13 AM
slimeruky slimeruky is offline
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

1. He means that the station broadcast lossy audio. Not uncommon lately.
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  #6  
Old 2006-05-13, 03:32 PM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimeruky
1. He means that the station broadcast lossy audio. Not uncommon lately.
Ok, but the question is can I trade this safely?
I don't think there is another source anyway, but is this "better" than mp3?

Also five what's: hihats
(it's something from the drumkit isn't it?)
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  #7  
Old 2006-05-13, 06:08 PM
slimeruky slimeruky is offline
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

I wouldn't trade it. It's just mp3 broadcast over the radio. Any lossy sources are bad to trade.
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  #8  
Old 2006-05-13, 08:50 PM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimeruky
I wouldn't trade it. It's just mp3 broadcast over the radio. Any lossy sources are bad to trade.
show 1
I get the point, but how come the there's isn't any "blacked" (as in missing) frequencies? Wouldn't the mp3 have a cutoff (somewhere) and then the carrier above it .. or is the e.g. 15-17 kHz purple area just noise???

Also can you maybe tell me where you see the blockiness (time-freq or cirlcle/arrow in pic), because to be honest I don't see it.. at all!

Guess it's a good thing I asked, because to me it seemed ok!
[i wish i was better in analysing. I know the theory, but practice...]

show 4
update: With a little bit of help of a friend I found the taper.

Turned out he let people download his recordings after you sent him an e-mail.

Actually, I have done this in the past, lost the second part, ask him for a re-upload/log-in.. without any reply. Lately I tried to e-mail him again in the hope to get a lossless/better copy, but again no reply. Makes me think he doesn't use that e-mail anymore, but i will give it one more try...

The files he shared, were 128kbits mp3's [recording was done with md, not sure if he used headphones/mic]. I still have the mp3 version, so I made a fa/sa for comparison.



Looks very similair to the ones posted earlier!!!

Good part, same friend told me there exist a second source (mic+md), with less talking. Unfortunally that source is not complete, but only two songs or so missing is not so bad..

Last edited by *dJ*; 2006-05-13 at 08:55 PM.
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  #9  
Old 2006-05-14, 01:23 AM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

1. yeah, the radiostation broadcast it from a lossy source. this is unfortunately becoming more common in recent years it might be possible to get a version that is not lossy from somebody inside the station, this is the best you will find until something (maybe) leaks out. There is no black at the top because noise got in there when it was broadcast, also you can see the carrier (red stripe up there). hihats are those two cymbals that are like a sandwich that opens and closes drummers are always using.

2. yes, that is my opinion.

3. yes

4. yeah... the new mp3 source looks similar, perhaps somebody deleted off the top of it to hide the mp3 ugliness?? not too sure what is up with that. if you can find the taper or somebody who knows him you could get some answers and maybe a better version.

missed 5 before, my comments about 4 last post should have been about show 5 :oops:
5. looks like mp3 is mp3 and the FLAC vers is also from the mp3. hopefully you can get a lossless version!
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  #10  
Old 2006-05-14, 02:50 AM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

ps here is a copy of slimeruky's screenshots with some blocks (looks more like "hyphens" here) circled and an arrow showing where the abrupt cutoff it.
Attached Images
File Type: gif blocky1.gif
( 453.4 KB, 66 views)
 
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  #11  
Old 2006-05-14, 11:13 AM
*dJ* *dJ* is offline
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

About the FM, don't think I can get it from the station. Especially since it's broadcasted 5 or 6 years ago, but if I could it would still be lossy (without the noise) woudn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
4. yeah... the new mp3 source looks similar, perhaps somebody deleted off the top of it to hide the mp3 ugliness?? not too sure what is up with that. if you can find the taper or somebody who knows him you could get some answers and maybe a better version.
You are saying the wav [from first post] comes from mp3? How is it then possible the mp3 has some more small drops e.g. at 4,5 and 7 kHz.

When and in which file do you say the deletion is made to hide the mp3 ugliness? I think I am missing the point here..

Found the taper, but I doubt he is still using that e-mail account.

The best option left is I can get ahold of the other (incomplete) source..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
missed 5 before, my comments about 4 last post should have been about show 5 :oops:
5. looks like mp3 is mp3 and the FLAC vers is also from the mp3. hopefully you can get a lossless version!
ehm you was talking about the 12 kHz cutoff in your first post, but the fifth show has a cutoff at 8 kHz.. so not really sure if/where you are mixxing things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
ps here is a copy of slimeruky's screenshots with some blocks (looks more like "hyphens" here) circled and an arrow showing where the abrupt cutoff it.
I see, I was looking for way smaller blockiness (pixel-like). If it was one big block with cutoff at 15Khz it would have been a clear/good fm?
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  #12  
Old 2006-05-14, 04:20 PM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dJ*
About the FM, don't think I can get it from the station. Especially since it's broadcasted 5 or 6 years ago, but if I could it would still be lossy (without the noise) woudn't it?
yeah, that might be the case but it might also be possible that they have an archived version of the show before it was lossy-encoded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dJ*
[re:#4]You are saying the wav [from first post] comes from mp3? How is it then possible the mp3 has some more small drops e.g. at 4,5 and 7 kHz.

When and in which file do you say the deletion is made to hide the mp3 ugliness? I think I am missing the point here..

Found the taper, but I doubt he is still using that e-mail account.

The best option left is I can get ahold of the other (incomplete) source..
it was just a guess that maybe the wav from the 1st post is a modified mp3, or maybe recorded at a really low sample rate... it is terrible, whatever it is. really hard to say for certain, I'm just guessing at how it could have become like that.




Quote:
Originally Posted by *dJ*
ehm you was talking about the 12 kHz cutoff in your first post, but the fifth show has a cutoff at 8 kHz.. so not really sure if/where you are mixxing things up.
I'm getting confused now too, but #4 is clearly lossy for sure and should not be traded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *dJ*
I see, I was looking for way smaller blockiness (pixel-like). If it was one big block with cutoff at 15Khz it would have been a clear/good fm?
no, not that I've ever seen, anyways. when the cutoff is straight across like that I have always found little blocks inside. a good FM cuts off at about 15kHz but it is not so perfectly straight, looks like it has a bit of "stubble" at the top and, of course, the carrier (red stripe) hovering above. find an old show (pre-1990s) that is a good source from FM and take a look you will see what I mean.
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  #13  
Old 2006-05-18, 04:40 PM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
I'm getting confused now too, but #4 is clearly lossy for sure and should not be traded.
.
Mind giving five a (second) look ?

Settings crap (like suggested by slimeruky) or bad transfer/encoding?
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  #14  
Old 2006-05-20, 01:32 AM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

really can't say... I'm leaning towards mp3 but if I am wrong then it is worse sound than most mp3 anyways.

esp considering how recent that show is there is something seriously wrong with that copy. I would avoid trading it and ask around for a different version.
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  #15  
Old 2006-05-21, 05:26 AM
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Re: Some opinions/help, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dJ*
Settings crap (like suggested by slimeruky) or bad transfer/encoding?
Looks like crap.

#2: Ive seen badly upsampled mp3s looking like this.
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