The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2004-12-04, 09:17 PM
Kush's Avatar
Kush Kush is offline
active taper
198.79 GB/239.51 GB/1.20
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost in the Pocono Mtns.
Matrix mix?

I know there are two forms of matrices out there. One that is mixed in live time and another done after the show at home. I was wondering if there was a different way of naming them since technically they are different?
__________________
The Grateful Dead... Rock 'n Roll for madmen.

Catch you on the flipside!

AKG SE 300 b (CK91/CK93) > Segue Dogstar Silver-Clad XLRs > Busman Transparency mod Tascam HD-P2 (24 bit 48 kHz)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #2  
Old 2004-12-04, 11:20 PM
U2Lynne's Avatar
U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
TTD Staff
469.38 GB/2.01 TB/4.39
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Re: Matrix mix?

For our naming purposes, we are putting them in the same category (same icon). However, in the text file, it should definitely explain what exactly is being shared.
__________________
Five's Checksums Demystified - everything and anything you want to know about checksums
On a Mac? Get XLD to rip your CDs. Please see this guide - X Lossless Decoder (XLD): How to create flawless CD rips on Mac OS X

TTD GoFundMe Campaign

Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #3  
Old 2004-12-05, 10:22 AM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
82.15 MB/96.22 MB/1.17
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Matrix mix?

There are several ways to achieve a "matrix" mix, almost all of them inaccurately named, as a true matrix mix is derived from a physically aligned pair of cardiod microphones that are decoded at the mixing board (preamp) before they are recorded.

In reality, the combination of a Soundboard and Audience source of the same show should be technically considered a "blend", since the origination sources are not aligned in time or necessarily, in phase.

In addition, if an analog audience source is re-syncronized to a soundboard source after the fact, it may not run at the same speed/pitch as the SBD, making their recombination a potentially excruciating process.

There are a whole bunch of other issues that arise when discussing these type of recordings, mostly involving the physics of sound and how it travels through the air and everything else that affects the reproduction of physical sound, up to and INCLUDING the weather conditions, both indoor and outdoor at the time of the gig. (I kid you not).
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #4  
Old 2004-12-06, 11:36 PM
eburks
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Matrix mix?

Just a little FYI

The reason (that I know of) we have many sbd + audience recordings called matrix mixes is because Dan Healey (gdead) called his mixes matrix mixes and acomplished them as follows in the 1984-1989 timeframe

Using a beta recorder with beta HI-FI sound and a PCM-F1 digital encoder he did the following (or variations of)

he put the Soundboard into the F1 which fed the video track and he put the microphone (which was usually located dead center in front of the board and delayed, into the beta HI-FI audio track. Usually was a single point stereo mic... can't remember a model; in 1987 and 1988 an AKG (212??? 412???)

So... post show he could take a cassette and record the show onto it with the level between audience and SBD adjusted as he preferred

I don't know who to attribute the word ultramix and ultramatrix to as these were both used in dead trader circles probably in reference to ultrasound a label for their sound system during that period (crest amps, gamble board, meyer sound lab speakers, active feedback and a host of other items
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #5  
Old 2004-12-06, 11:52 PM
eburks
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Matrix mix?

oops I meant delay the SBD input

He also had a little weather station at the board sometimes to help define those conditions he was adjusting for


Quote:
Originally Posted by eburks
Just a little FYI

The reason (that I know of) we have many sbd + audience recordings called matrix mixes is because Dan Healey (gdead) called his mixes matrix mixes and acomplished them as follows in the 1984-1989 timeframe

Using a beta recorder with beta HI-FI sound and a PCM-F1 digital encoder he did the following (or variations of)

he put the Soundboard into the F1 which fed the video track and he put the microphone (which was usually located dead center in front of the board and delayed, into the beta HI-FI audio track. Usually was a single point stereo mic... can't remember a model; in 1987 and 1988 an AKG (212??? 412???)

So... post show he could take a cassette and record the show onto it with the level between audience and SBD adjusted as he preferred

I don't know who to attribute the word ultramix and ultramatrix to as these were both used in dead trader circles probably in reference to ultrasound a label for their sound system during that period (crest amps, gamble board, meyer sound lab speakers, active feedback and a host of other items
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #6  
Old 2004-12-07, 06:38 AM
wazoo2u wazoo2u is offline
82.15 MB/96.22 MB/1.17
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Matrix mix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eburks
Just a little FYI

The reason (that I know of) we have many sbd + audience recordings called matrix mixes is because Dan Healey (gdead) called his mixes matrix mix
This is correct. I'm sure (as brilliant as Healy is) that he had a reason to call these matrix recordings. There's probably an article floating around that describes the technique. Unfortunately, he muddled the issue because the term is normally reserved for M-S (mid-side) encoded recordings. OTOH, there's a huge difference between a time-aligned blend, and an after the fact combination of random mic and desk recordings.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #7  
Old 2004-12-07, 01:23 PM
Kush's Avatar
Kush Kush is offline
active taper
198.79 GB/239.51 GB/1.20
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost in the Pocono Mtns.
Re: Matrix mix?

<So... post show he could take a cassette and record the show onto it with the level between audience and SBD adjusted as he preferred >

I always thought Healy did these in real time on a slight delay. You can hear him playing around with the fader to set the audience levels during the songs. If it was done after show wouldn't he have just set them and left them go?
__________________
The Grateful Dead... Rock 'n Roll for madmen.

Catch you on the flipside!

AKG SE 300 b (CK91/CK93) > Segue Dogstar Silver-Clad XLRs > Busman Transparency mod Tascam HD-P2 (24 bit 48 kHz)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #8  
Old 2004-12-07, 11:41 PM
eburks
0.00 KB/0.00 KB/---
 
Re: Matrix mix?

sometimes yes ... sometimes no; we are talking about hundreds of recordings. There are mixes that were broadcast and mixes that were traded and there were "ticket office mixes' for the folks in the trenches that missed the showcause they needed to work. Some of the stuff in circulation is just what he fiddled it to be when he put it on to cassette... and Dan was not the only one with access to his masters :-)

Some 85 SBD's in circulation are TERRIBLY dry; nothing but SBD and that is probably recorded from a patch at the show. The May 5, 6 ,1989 frost amphitheater shows were broadcast and have an outragously rich mic blend that could be from the pre-FM or might be a healy postmix (and they just might have had access to DAT at that time but I think that was later in the year)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kush
<So... post show he could take a cassette and record the show onto it with the level between audience and SBD adjusted as he preferred >

I always thought Healy did these in real time on a slight delay. You can hear him playing around with the fader to set the audience levels during the songs. If it was done after show wouldn't he have just set them and left them go?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
Matrix Tuesday Night Jam Sessions 8.4 & 10.21 1970, Matrix, SF, Ca., w, Garcia, Santana, Cipollina, Valenti, Hopkins & many others, SBD, from 1st gen. reel to reel-fixed 1970-xx-xx (FLAC) - cicada Audio Torrents 51 2016-03-10 03:10 AM
Matrix help - alzeppelin Technobabble 0 2007-10-15 09:01 AM
Matrix(ed) recordings - Billster Technobabble 16 2007-09-15 10:31 AM
What is a matrix? - Ted Technobabble 13 2005-06-08 02:41 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts