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  #1  
Old 2004-12-01, 06:26 AM
e6003 e6003 is offline
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Some questions on seeding here

Only just discovered this site but it looks great. I would like to post here for the community effect which is far less prevalent at EZT, however I have some questions/points to clarify/suggestions for the FAQ:

- Lossy audio is totally forbidden - I assume this includes Digital Audio Broadcasts (DAB) too as it's normally mp2 format? Would it be worth updating the FAQ to specifically mention this (as you do for internet streams)? Would this policy ever be reviewed if, say, DAB completely replaces conventional FM broadcasting? (I ask partly because we have a good DAB station here in .uk called Planet Rock who often broadcast complete shows - but the stream would be lossy and EZT's guidelines would permit it if there was so alternate lossless source; then again I understand that this site isn't EZT!).

- Is it permitted to attach short MP3 samples to a post, to demonstrate the sound quality of a boot to prospective downloaders?

- Video seeding is DVDs only; no VCDs or SVCDs right? Is it permitted to seed a DVD upconverted from a VCD source - even though the quality won't be any better? Seeds must be of the VIDEO_TS directory and files; an ISO image created from a DVD is not allowed, correct? Also, is "Trade DVD-Rx > VIDEO_TS files" a permitted lineage here?

- I have a vinyl-sourced boot I would like to get round to seeding. I've got good raw copies of each side but haven't yet split the files into tracks. I heard mention of using CDWav to ensure the track splits are correctly aligned with CD sectors - is the use of the etree shntool/shnfix tool also permitted to do this? Also, is declicking mandatory - the vinyl was in good condition and I only recall one real problem area. I understand a prospective seeder of a vinyl-sourced show is expected to listen through the LP rip but are we required to remove every last little click?

- I have some shows received on trade CD-R that I have never seen before in the trading community. I'm a bit confused as to the status of "trade CDRx > WAV (using EAC or cdparanoia) > FLAC" as a permitted lineage here - sorry if I'm missing something but are there specific guidelines as to when this is allowed and when not, apart from if it's a simple re-rip of a CD-R created from downloaded lossless files in the first place (which I know is forbidden and understand why)? I'm particularly interested in the case of a show that has been released on a silver CD by one of the well-known bootleggers like Bondage Music or Swinging Pig, but the version I have is not derived from such a release because the tracklisting doesn't match, or if the silver release was edited to squeeze on one CD, that sort of thing.

Thanks in advance for the time anyone can take to answer my questions.
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  #2  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:23 AM
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RainDawg RainDawg is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

Let me answer these questions, one at a time.


Quote:
- Lossy audio is totally forbidden - I assume this includes Digital Audio Broadcasts (DAB) too as it's normally mp2 format? Would it be worth updating the FAQ to specifically mention this (as you do for internet streams)? Would this policy ever be reviewed if, say, DAB completely replaces conventional FM broadcasting? (I ask partly because we have a good DAB station here in .uk called Planet Rock who often broadcast complete shows - but the stream would be lossy and EZT's guidelines would permit it if there was so alternate lossless source; then again I understand that this site isn't EZT!).
By DAB are you referring specicially to XM or Siruius? These are pay services with specific user-agreements, and we've decided to not violate those here. We have decided also to disallow mp2 sourced broadcasts of any type right now, as it's very difficult to exact any kind of quality controls on it. I know there are some that sound great, but until we can come up with a good system for regulating the quality of these broadcasts, they are not permitted for seeding here.

Quote:
- Is it permitted to attach short MP3 samples to a post, to demonstrate the sound quality of a boot to prospective downloaders?
Absolutely, but we have a pretty restictive maximum attachment size to help keep everything running smoothly. It would be best to upload the sample to your own personal external webspace, and link users to it so they can get a sample if they choose.

Quote:
- Video seeding is DVDs only; no VCDs or SVCDs right? Is it permitted to seed a DVD upconverted from a VCD source - even though the quality won't be any better? Seeds must be of the VIDEO_TS directory and files; an ISO image created from a DVD is not allowed, correct?
Absolutely not. VCD > DVD actually decreases the quality, not increases it. ISO images are more confusion that they are worth...some users have difficulty with them, and they really don't offer any better compression. Only fully authored, DVD quality VIDEO_TS folders are permitted for seeding.

Quote:
Also, is "Trade DVD-Rx > VIDEO_TS files" a permitted lineage here?
Yes

Quote:
- I have a vinyl-sourced boot I would like to get round to seeding. I've got good raw copies of each side but haven't yet split the files into tracks. I heard mention of using CDWav to ensure the track splits are correctly aligned with CD sectors - is the use of the etree shntool/shnfix tool also permitted to do this?
The major stipulation here is that you must list what hardware and methods you used to capture the audio. That is very important to us. CDWav and shntool are fantastic programs, and not only permitted but encouraged here.

Quote:
Also, is declicking mandatory - the vinyl was in good condition and I only recall one real problem area. I understand a prospective seeder of a vinyl-sourced show is expected to listen through the LP rip but are we required to remove every last little click?
No, declicking is not mandatory. If you do it, we request that you let us know what your method was and what software was used. As long as you make a good, high quality rip from the vinyl, there shouldn't be any need go through the labor of declicking avery spot unless you really want to go to that extra length.

Quote:
- I have some shows received on trade CD-R that I have never seen before in the trading community. I'm a bit confused as to the status of "trade CDRx > WAV (using EAC or cdparanoia) > FLAC" as a permitted lineage here - sorry if I'm missing something but are there specific guidelines as to when this is allowed and when not, apart from if it's a simple re-rip of a CD-R created from downloaded lossless files in the first place (which I know is forbidden and understand why)? I'm particularly interested in the case of a show that has been released on a silver CD by one of the well-known bootleggers like Bondage Music or Swinging Pig, but the version I have is not derived from such a release because the tracklisting doesn't match, or if the silver release was edited to squeeze on one CD, that sort of thing.
The rules about CDRx are really pretty simple. First, you must make sure that if it is an unknown gen trade CDR, you include the "x". Second, you must make sure it is digitally clean (IE no diginoise, clicks between tracks, no lossy source, no TAO). If your CDRx is derived from an original silver, then we require rips from that silver. If what you have is a different source of the same show, especially in the case where the audio is better or more complete than the silver release, please seed. Really, the only stipulation on CDR stuff is that we want people to give it a good listen and make sure it's clean before spreading a flawed version.
Yes, lossless > CDR > lossless is indeed prohibited because it's easy for people to screw up, and it forces people to get in the habit of storing the lossless data files instead of relying on the much less stable audio CD format.

I hope this covers everything.
__________________
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Throught the lies,
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What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
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  #3  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:25 AM
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Five Five is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
Only just discovered this site but it looks great. I would like to post here for the community effect which is far less prevalent at EZT, however I have some questions/points to clarify/suggestions for the FAQ:

- Lossy audio is totally forbidden - I assume this includes Digital Audio Broadcasts (DAB) too as it's normally mp2 format? Would it be worth updating the FAQ to specifically mention this (as you do for internet streams)? Would this policy ever be reviewed if, say, DAB completely replaces conventional FM broadcasting? (I ask partly because we have a good DAB station here in .uk called Planet Rock who often broadcast complete shows - but the stream would be lossy and EZT's guidelines would permit it if there was so alternate lossless source; then again I understand that this site isn't EZT!).
Yes, all lossy and lossy-sourced stuff is forbidden with the one exception of MiniDisc... but MD is not allowed if it's in the middle of the lineage. EZT and TOTM have a rule that makes an exception for non-MD lossy if it's "best possible source" but we don't do that here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
- Is it permitted to attach short MP3 samples to a post, to demonstrate the sound quality of a boot to prospective downloaders?
It's not official at the moment, but I'd say "yes" to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
- Video seeding is DVDs only; no VCDs or SVCDs right? Is it permitted to seed a DVD upconverted from a VCD source - even though the quality won't be any better? Seeds must be of the VIDEO_TS directory and files; an ISO image created from a DVD is not allowed, correct? Also, is "Trade DVD-Rx > VIDEO_TS files" a permitted lineage here?
Video isn't my strong suit, but I can answer some of this:
-No VCDs or SVCDs
-No DVDs "upconverted" from a VCD source.
-Video_TS only, no ISO images please
-"Trade DVD-Rx > VIDEO_TS files" lineage... sorry, I'm not sure about this. RainDawg will post here with an answer soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
- I have a vinyl-sourced boot I would like to get round to seeding. I've got good raw copies of each side but haven't yet split the files into tracks. I heard mention of using CDWav to ensure the track splits are correctly aligned with CD sectors - is the use of the etree shntool/shnfix tool also permitted to do this? Also, is declicking mandatory - the vinyl was in good condition and I only recall one real problem area. I understand a prospective seeder of a vinyl-sourced show is expected to listen through the LP rip but are we required to remove every last little click?
Yes, you can use SHNtool, FLAC frontend, GoldWave, CEP/Audition, CDWave... just please make sure there's no SBEs. If anybody needs help with cutting on sector boundaries using these progs, just ask us.
No, you don't have to declick your vinyl. Noise reduction is tricky business and it's easy to spoil a recording so please only do what you're 100% comfortable with. We strongly advise you not to run a "de-clicker" on the entire record. If there's vinyl in the lineage people will understand some snap-crackle-pop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
- I have some shows received on trade CD-R that I have never seen before in the trading community. I'm a bit confused as to the status of "trade CDRx > WAV (using EAC or cdparanoia) > FLAC" as a permitted lineage here - sorry if I'm missing something but are there specific guidelines as to when this is allowed and when not, apart from if it's a simple re-rip of a CD-R created from downloaded lossless files in the first place (which I know is forbidden and understand why)? I'm particularly interested in the case of a show that has been released on a silver CD by one of the well-known bootleggers like Bondage Music or Swinging Pig, but the version I have is not derived from such a release because the tracklisting doesn't match, or if the silver release was edited to squeeze on one CD, that sort of thing.
-CDR(x) is allowed so long as you make an effort to see if there's a better source circulating, rip with EAC, check for SBEs, and listen carefully to the whole show for diginoise, skips and errors. Come to think of it, we would like everyone to give a quiet listen to any new rip because even a silver can have a skip.
-Something like Mics>Portable DAT>CEP2.1>FLAC>CDR>SHN is not allowed. Once the files are converted to lossless they should only be burned to audio cdr for personal use, not for trading. Re-SHNing just creates multiple filesets with different checksums and adds the potential for errors creeping in. If you like Audio CDRs for your car or whatever that's cool, just please keep a backup of the data files in case you want to share an exact copy of the same show later down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
Thanks in advance for the time anyone can take to answer my questions.
You're welcome, I hope this helps.
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  #4  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:30 AM
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Five Five is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

Oops... I got beat to the punch. Good morning, RainDawg!

I think our answers jive... I can delete my redundant post if you like.
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  #5  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:38 AM
e6003 e6003 is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

Thanks for the replies. I understand the rules much better now and thanks to both of you for replying. (By DAB, I meant digital radio - I'm guessing the European DAB system must be different to the US, we don't have "premium services" like XM or Sirius AFAIK; it's all free-to-air). Thanks once again guys - you've really clarified matters for me.
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  #6  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:43 AM
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

don't be shy
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  #7  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:45 AM
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Karst Karst is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

DAB is something differenct IMHO. Further details here:

http://www.worlddab.org/faq.aspx

And from the BBC who is the main broadcaster in the format in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/digitalradio/about/
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  #8  
Old 2004-12-01, 07:51 AM
e6003 e6003 is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

One other quick question - say I download a show from a DC++ hub but there's absolutely no lineage info. Could I seed it here with lineage something like "Bootleg Archive FLACs > you" (assuming of course there was no better version in circulation)? Or is this not adequate for the high standards you want to set here?
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  #9  
Old 2004-12-01, 08:02 AM
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RainDawg RainDawg is offline
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Re: Some questions on seeding here

Quote:
Originally Posted by e6003
One other quick question - say I download a show from a DC++ hub but there's absolutely no lineage info. Could I seed it here with lineage something like "Bootleg Archive FLACs > you" (assuming of course there was no better version in circulation)? Or is this not adequate for the high standards you want to set here?
No, in most cases something without any lineage at all is going to be turned down. If you just put FLAC > you, it's going to be pulled. At the very least, we'd need to see what the source is, IE SBD or AUD designation. Even so, if we don't have any idea what media was used to trasfer it, I would say as a general rule of thumb it's not going to be accepted.

Try to track down source info if possible, then seed. If there's a question about a specific set, PM a mod and we'll offer feedback on what's missing and how it can be corrected. We're pretty picky here, but also happy to help people get things setup correctly.
__________________
Through the clouds,
Throught the lies,
We'll never see,
What's never been,
At the ending of life and the coming of death,
Pass not through its gates but into the dark.
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