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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #1  
Old 2005-08-10, 06:28 PM
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whoweeds

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  #2  
Old 2005-08-10, 06:45 PM
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Re: whoweeds

am I jumping the gun by saying

lossy
lossless
lossy
lossless
lossy?

did you post in the threads there?
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  #3  
Old 2005-08-10, 07:22 PM
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Re: whoweeds

I contacted the seeder.

So, there is this cutoff but no blocks noticeable. Could this be noise reduced?
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  #4  
Old 2005-08-10, 09:04 PM
craig62 craig62 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

You'll find many of the WhoWeeds discs have similar looking spectrographs.

Here's the lineage I have for WW13:

From a cassette master transferred to wav/cdr/shn after much tweaking & adjustment.

I think a lot of "tweaking & adjustment" was performed on the sources used for many of these discs.

Here's the frequency analysis for d1t06 from WW13:
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  #5  
Old 2005-08-10, 09:15 PM
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Re: whoweeds

Does that sound like garbage? That's the earliest cutoff I've ever seen!
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  #6  
Old 2005-08-10, 10:14 PM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

AS THE SEEDER OF THE SERIES AND AFTER CHECKING JOHN'S FILES AGAINST MY AUDIO COPIES I MADE FROM THEM WHEN THEY CAME OUT THESE ARE THE MASTERS FIRST OF ALL. SECONDLY ANYONE WHO USES COOL EDIT OR ADOBE AUDITION WILL KNOW THAT USING ANY OF THE EFFECTS WILL AFFECT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.......THESE ARE NOT MP3 SOURCED. I TOOK SOME ZPPA SBD TRACKS I GOT TODAY AND USED THE HISS REDUCTION AND TIME STRECTCHING ON THEM..........AND IT WENT FROM LOSSLESS SPECTRAL TO ONE THAT LOOKS LIKE AN MP3 AFTER THE HISS REMOVAL.........ALL I AM SAYING IS TAKE A LOSSLESS TRACK AND PLAY WITH IT AND YOU WILL FIND THE SAME THINGS...................

IN THE MEANTIME ENJOY THE SHOWS FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND WHEN A BETTER SET COMES ALONG, UPGRADE. BTW THIS IS UP

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-d...p.php&id=54583

WW06 = The Who
Venue: The Coliseum; Los Angeles; CA.
Date: 8-26-89
Source: audience/ 3rd gen. analog>shn
Quality: VG/VG+
Media: 2 cdr shn. that folds out to 3 cdr audio
Remastered by: John Atyim
Artwork by: "P.A."

DISC 1:

01. Overture
02. It's A Boy
03. 1921
04. Amazing Journey
05. Sparks
06. The Acid Queen
07. Pinball Wizard
08. We're Not Gonna Take It
09. Eminence Front
10. Let My Love Open The Door
11. Face The Face
12. I'm A Man
13. I can't Explain
14. Substitute

DISC 2:

01. I Can See For Miles
02. Trick Of The Light
03. Boris The Spider
04. Who Are You

INTERMISSION

05. Magic Bus
06. Baba O'Riley
07. My Generation
08. A Little Is Enough
09. 5:15
10. Love Reign O'er Me
11. Sister Disco
12. Rough Boys
13. Join Toghether

DISC 3:

01. You Better You Bet
02. Behind Blue eyes
03. Won't Get Fooled Again

ENCORES

04. Hey Joe
05. Dig
06. Twist And Shout
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  #7  
Old 2005-08-10, 10:27 PM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig62
You'll find many of the WhoWeeds discs have similar looking spectrographs.

Here's the lineage I have for WW13:

From a cassette master transferred to wav/cdr/shn after much tweaking & adjustment.

I think a lot of "tweaking & adjustment" was performed on the sources used for many of these discs.

Here's the frequency analysis for d1t06 from WW13:

I cannot speak for WW13......John did not do that one...........I do not have the master files either............
WW13 = The Who
Venue: The Forum; Montreal, Canada
Date: 5-7-80
Source: audience/unknown generation analog>speed-corrected>CDR
Quality: VG-
Media: 2 cdr SHN. that folds out to 2 cdr audio
Remastered & Speed-corrected by: Rob Peet
Artwork by: Eric
however Rob peet does have a solid reputation in the who trading community.......
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  #8  
Old 2005-08-11, 01:14 AM
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Re: whoweeds

okay well it seems that since no blocks are visible shows 1, 3 and 5 have just been LPF'ed imo too heavily. perhaps this was what the person who did the work felt was necessary to make a good listening experience from an old hissy tape, myself I'd prefer the hiss or at least keep something above 11kHz. I like what James did with the Dancing Avacado... you get the raw and the cooked, even tho its plain to tell that James' version is a million times more listenable. It also opens up the option for somebody else to attempt a better mastering job.
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  #9  
Old 2005-08-11, 04:48 AM
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Re: whoweeds

ww6 d1t2
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  #10  
Old 2005-08-11, 07:18 AM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
okay well it seems that since no blocks are visible shows 1, 3 and 5 have just been LPF'ed imo too heavily. perhaps this was what the person who did the work felt was necessary to make a good listening experience from an old hissy tape, myself I'd prefer the hiss or at least keep something above 11kHz. I like what James did with the Dancing Avacado... you get the raw and the cooked, even tho its plain to tell that James' version is a million times more listenable. It also opens up the option for somebody else to attempt a better mastering job.
I do as well. Normally there are before and after versions available (like the BERTHA remasters).....at the same time this is what we got. time to move on..............
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  #11  
Old 2005-08-12, 12:57 PM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

btw WW10 will be put up here instead of dime
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  #12  
Old 2005-08-12, 02:11 PM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

this is not the first time this has happened.....when the shows were originally released the same issues crept up. what everyone needs to know is that whoweeds was formed because of the issues in other who groups of the time with bad discs......tao gapped shows, mp3's etc etc...........so this was a quality control thing with whoweeds..........mp3's were not allowed........

hntgzr sent me the following remembrances as well...........

Funnily enough, I was once daft enough to question John on the Frequency Analysis of most of the WhoWeeds series when I first joined the now defunct Yahoo Group.

I was niaive enough to think that because they had a low FA that they were or could have been MP3 sourced and was really just asking John to confirm that the copies I had were the original copies and matched the original MD5 files.

Needless to say, they are not MP3 sourced - they have merely been processed using Cool Edit Pro (or similar - I can't remember know exactly what John uses) and have had some amount of noise reduction and other filtering techniques applied to them.

When noice reduction is applied, the top end frequencies are sometimes flattened (this unfortunately gives a similar FA to that of an MP3).

If the person wishes to look at a Spectral Analysis of the WhoWeeds series, they will see that they are not MP3 sourced. FA's don't always give an accurate reading!

Hope that helps


I see that Craig62 has responded to the post on TTDen.

I have had many conversations with Craig about the way WhoWeeds material looks when run through FA. He is aware of John's mastering techniques.

Back in 2003 I shared a lot of the WW series with Craig on a Direct Connect hub. He is a big Who fan, as I am (as we are!).

He will remember me telling him that John A did a lot of noise reduction, etc, to his recordings - in fact I've just looked back at some emails from October 2003 with regard to this and John does indeed recognise the fact that some look like they are MP3 sourced with the method he used to clean them up. He stated he sometimes chopped off the top frequencies as part of his remastering technique.

I am sure nowadays, nearly 2 years on, that some filtering plugins in Adobe Audtion or WaveLab for example would do the job better - however, this was just not the case back in 2003.

Last edited by toys; 2005-08-12 at 07:06 PM.
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  #13  
Old 2005-08-12, 06:15 PM
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Re: whoweeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
okay well it seems that since no blocks are visible shows 1, 3 and 5 have just been LPF'ed imo too heavily.
Keep in mind that "no blocks" does not always mean that it's not lossy. Some lossy codecs exhibit little to no "blocking" but pretty much all of them use steep lowpass filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterrose35
If the person wishes to look at a Spectral Analysis of the WhoWeeds series, they will see that they are not MP3 sourced. FA's don't always give an accurate reading!
Well spectral analysis pics have been presented and thanks to a very steep lowpass some of them "look lossy" to some extent as well.

Additionally, normal noise reduction would never introduce such a lowpass while preserving such an amount of noise in the lower frequency range, unless you explicitly exclude lower frequencies from processing and use it very heavy-handedly.

However if lowpass filtering was indeed part of the restauration ( ) technique used on some of these files, it would explain the way some of the spectral analysis pictures above look.
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  #14  
Old 2005-08-12, 07:53 PM
hunterrose35 hunterrose35 is offline
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Re: whoweeds

I received this in my DaD email.......

"you have to tell these stories. People like to read background information. Whoweeds is a part of history, there are archivists out there who bother."

so I figured wtf, let's ask John himself............

so I emailed John......

""you have to tell these stories. People like to read
background information. Whoweeds is a part of history,
there are archivists out there who bother."

This is the email I am getting.........this is your
work.....I am just passing it along........I don't
suppose you want to write a little history of whoweeds
overall? the why? the how? the decison to end?"

this was John's reply............................

"Y' wanna story ? Here's a little story about a rock & roll band called The Who, Britain's first real rock band, they started out as a pop band like the Beatles and the Stones but, they were the first of their kind. The 'Oo were the fucking greatest live rock & roll band there ever was... (end of story). Now, y'all can go back to sleep and dream....

Enjoy,
John (Mr. Whoweeds) "


so as you can see, and as me and other like Hntgzr have said.......ENJOY THE TUNES AND BE GRATEFUL FOR WHAT YOU HAVE GOT......... lucky john did not frag my computer. lmao.........if someone wants to try and create a whoweeds history, I will be happy to answer questions as best I can....but I am not the one.......i'm simply passing these along.....
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  #15  
Old 2005-08-12, 10:40 PM
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Re: whoweeds

Interesting how examples 1, 3, and 5 look all the same - blackness over 11kHz. Maybe this means "tweaked by the same guy with the same methods"?

As with so much Who material doing the rounds, doesn't seem like worthwhile stuff to circulate.
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