Confusion about generations and masters etc.

[zeptrade]

Originally Posted by pmonk66

What I find funny is that the whole lineage thing is pretty stupid when you think about it.

When you look at the TTD policy forbiding the torrenting of shows where their is a CD-R generation between an "original silver" since as Mr. Freezer pointed out we have no idea where the lineage of the "original silver" is anyway??

I do understand the reason for this (i.e. cuts down on digital errors from bad rips and burns) but if you verify that its an error-free copy it shouldl be fine.

Now - when it comes to the analog world of cassette tapes obviously each generation means a deterioration of the sound (just like when making a xerox copy the copy is not identical of the original and if you make a copy of copy then the quality just gets worse and worse)

So, sound qualty wise a CD-R(3) should sound no different then CD-R(10) as long as ech copy is error free but a 2nd generation tape is going to sound much better then a 7th generation tape!

Exactly and people get confused over the term "Master_" because there is the actual tape that was used to record a show or whatever and then there are working Masters. From my own experience most people first make a safety copy of the Master and then make maybe 5 copies off the master to send to his co-conspirators. They either make copies from the "Master" or make 1 to _ copies to use as "Working Masters". Which should be called 1st generation possibly.

[range_hood]

Originally Posted by freezer

The shows I sent you, two of them were definitely not archived by the station. (but they 'may' have been recorded by other collectors)

Are these shows "masters" OR "master copies" OR is there some other conventional terminology used?

Is this terminology in use only conventional for TTD?

Any confusion here stems from seeing "low gen" collectors call copies of 'commercial' bootlegs "master clones"...

you could add something like postFM master, like the nirvana community uses. they´re pretty anal about the lineage at some point.
Also you could state what kind of FM broadcast it was. digitalFM, cableFM, terrestrialFM

As for the different digital transfers you could also add freezer_tranfer_one to avoid confusion, if you don´t want to list what you´ve done.


WWOZ-postFM(terrestrial)>Marantz 2215>JVC 5010>CDR master(0)>freezer_transfer_one>CDR(1)

[Five]

Originally Posted by pmonk66

What I find funny is that the whole lineage thing is pretty stupid when you think about it.

When you look at the TTD policy forbiding the torrenting of shows where their is a CD-R generation between an "original silver" since as Mr. Freezer pointed out we have no idea where the lineage of the "original silver" is anyway??

I do understand the reason for this (i.e. cuts down on digital errors from bad rips and burns) but if you verify that its an error-free copy it shouldl be fine.

Now - when it comes to the analog world of cassette tapes obviously each generation means a deterioration of the sound (just like when making a xerox copy the copy is not identical of the original and if you make a copy of copy then the quality just gets worse and worse)

So, sound qualty wise a CD-R(3) should sound no different then CD-R(10) as long as ech copy is error free but a 2nd generation tape is going to sound much better then a 7th generation tape!

Well, fact is that CD-R getting one or more gens added 99% means it was copied with nero or whatever with no offset correction. so everything just sort of slides a little. Which honestly isn't such a big deal. The other real problem with CDR gens is that errors creep in... I've got a couple hundred CDR(x) zep audio CDRs and something like 15% of them skip, others have SBEs burned into them... so I feel better from experience having a lower gen CDR if its available. If it has been copied well then the offsets will have merly slid so you really have to give it a close listen. When it finally gets off CDR and becomes a FLAC set it should be examined carefully by the seeder (and the downloaders who are more on the audiophile end).

As for bootleg silvers, we originally didn't want them here at all since they're unknown generation. We decided to allow them because (a) we want to take profits away from bootleggers and (b) those bootleggers have made some unsurpassed stuff (or at least sometimes unsurfaced). We decided that we wouldn't tolerate CDR gens for boots since there are a fair number or any title out there ripe for the EAC'ing.

"master clone"

this usually refers to a show taped on DAT which you have as a DAT(n) version and is typically unreliable history. somehow things morph into master sources as they get traded down the line. I haven't seen it used in reference to CD sources but I don't think I'd trust it if I did.

As for "FM", "master destroyed", "dubbed from safety copy" none of those are really considered master sources. The master tape is the one recorded at the time and place of the event. If it gets destroyed or burned up, the 1st gen copy doesn't become the master, even though it's the lowest gen available. Some people do make digital transfers or analog copies directly from the actual masters and sometimes it's from a safety copy, as above. You just need to hammer out the details if it really matters to you.

Another reason why "no CD copies of bootlegs". Bootlegs are kind of widely available where as CDr or DAT direct from master source is only held by a few people. See what I mean?

[freezer]

Originally Posted by Five

As for bootleg silvers, we originally didn't want them here at all since they're unknown generation. We decided to allow them because (a) we want to take profits away from bootleggers

(a) Sites like this and dime and eztree and Yahoo groups etc really haven't taken as much away from bootleggers as made their job a lot easier in obtaining shows to sell.

Certainly haven't cut into the Dylan or Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin bootleggers profits at all. Most new Dylan boots come from torrents directly from these sites...

(Local New Orleans bootleg record store, The Mushroom, was selling copies of YES "Master Series#2", 12/1/74 - Baton Rouge --- which is supposed to be a product of a fan group, but the fan group actually made it easy for the bootleggers to obtain materials that were already salable. Even the fan artwork was reproduced.)

These are not just isolated incidents. Led Zeppelin 2/28/75 Baton Rouge was torrented on R-O and dime a few months ago. Now the same show has just been released from Empress Valley. A boot of a torrent of a boot. And how soon after someone at TTD obtains the Empress Valley boot will it be seeded on this site?

A torrent of a boot of a torrent of a boot?

Is that acceptable lineage?

Sure, as long as the seed is ripped from AN "original silver" boot, right?

Originally Posted by Five

(b) those bootleggers have made some unsurpassed stuff (or at least sometimes unsurfaced). We decided that we wouldn't tolerate CDR gens for boots since there are a fair number or any title out there ripe for the EAC'ing.

(b) that may have been true years ago, like in 1970 or so - when bootleggers actually did record shows, but many bootleggers now "surface" shows that other bootleggers have already surfaced. OR that have actually surfaced from tapers or collectors.

Plus, how do you know that some taper/trader didn't surface that show you attribute to a bootlegger? Just because you haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it wasn't being spread by some traders already.

Here I speak from experience. The Johnny Winter 6/7/75 that I taped 30 years ago was given freely to the rsboots yahoo group in 2002. They spread it around, but it was bootlegged in 2002 (from one of their clones of the CDr).

So I went back to the master tape and did a new digital transfer, this time including a minute of audience noise and stage announcements that weren't on the first transfer. That was first spread on a couple of Yahoo groups like Archival Group and AllBlues.

So if you didn't belong to these groups that "surfaced" those versions of that recording, you would have testified that the bootlegger "surfaced" that 6/7/75 Johnny Winter recording, right?

And if I hadn't supplied a CDr "master clone" of transfer 2 with appropriate lineage, the bootleg would have been allowed here, but the better second digital transfer with more material would not?

Originally Posted by New Homebrew

As for "FM", "master destroyed", "dubbed from safety copy" none of those are really considered master sources. The master tape is the one recorded at the time and place of the event. If it gets destroyed or burned up, the 1st gen copy doesn't become the master, even though it's the lowest gen available. Some people do make digital transfers or analog copies directly from the actual masters and sometimes it's from a safety copy, as above. You just need to hammer out the details if it really matters to you.

In the 3 years since I've returned to the hobby, I have indeed seen "That Which Passes for the MASTER" listed in lineage where a master tape was unavailable for common trading. This is in the "low gen" Led Zeppelin community, and in particular in an on-line list in reference to the 2/28/75 LZ in Baton Rouge recording. The Pink Floyd "low gen" community is also experiencing a similar problem, with the 4/28/77 Baton Rouge show with some self-professed expert now passing off a copy of the bootleg as a "first generation" copy.

Does it matter? There are some collectors who do say they have a master copy if it comes from a "silver" boot. There are some collectors who do document their collections very meticulously and don't want copies of boots as "master copies".


Its one of the reasons I prefer to pass out shows here at TTD. At least the majority of collectors who are here are very interested in getting it right the first time.

However, I still question the policy of seeding bootlegs as freely as is the custom here. That policy, as now stands, makes it too easy for confusion to cloud the lineage issue.


Your mileage may vary.

[Five]

Originally Posted by freezer

(a) Sites like this and dime and eztree and Yahoo groups etc really haven't taken as much away from bootleggers as made their job a lot easier in obtaining shows to sell.

the numbers that are being pressed are way down. bootleggers' profits are way down. you can hardly find them at all in my town, not like 15 yrs ago. its true that sources for boots are more easily available for bootleggers, but when you consider they're pressing 50 instead of 500 or 1000 and you can hardly find them then I'd call that hitting them where it hurts.

you can either keep the recordings out of circulation or circulate them so widely that nobody can make a profit. I prefer the 2nd option.

[freezer]

For the sake of discussion:

Originally Posted by Five

the numbers that are being pressed are way down. bootleggers' profits are way down. you can hardly find them at all in my town, not like 15 yrs ago. its true that sources for boots are more easily available for bootleggers, but when you consider they're pressing 50 instead of 500 or 1000 and you can hardly find them then I'd call that hitting them where it hurts.

So you say. I say it's different. And as you did, I have statistics too.

The bootlegger who was supplying The Mushroom (boot seller in New Orleans 1 block from the Tulane campus) was caught with OVER 10,000 units in stock.

You and I are both quoting from recent news stories. I believe your numbers come from a LA Times story (please correct me if I'm wrong.) My stats come from the New Orleans Times-Picayune, which reported on this boot store's bust as local news.

I can find boots at two more independent music stores, one of which is in the French Quarter in the center of New Orleans. Tonight, right now, Beatles, Dylan, NIN...what do you want?

The Mushroom which was the store busted, FEATURED a full glass cabinet of boots of shows recorded in the New Orleans area OR boots of outtakes from albums recorded at Kingsway Studio here in New Orleans.

You may be currently unable to find them in your hometown, but when was the last time you made a concerted effort to find bootlegs? If you're in a fairly large city, especially near a college with an independent music store, you can find bootlegs. I can find them in a college town like Hammond, Louisiana (population in July 2002: 17,624). (I buy a lot of used jazz cds, so I frequent independent music shops.)

Besides why look when you can have e-mailed announcement like this come to your home:

> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:00:47 +0900
> To: [email protected]
> From: E.... S.... <[email protected]>
> Subject: New Empress Valley Label Title NOW in
> Stock! #D
>
> Hiya Everybody:
>
............................................
............................................
>
> *** New Titles NOW in Stock ***
>
> The Battle of Baton Rouge (2/28/75) 3 CD Empress
> Valley Label $97
>
> California Sunshine (3/11/75 Long Beach) 3 CD
> Badgeholders Label $72
>
> Riot House (12/22/72 London, UK) 3 CD Longer Source
> from Wendy label! $72
>
> Top of the World (5/5/73 Tampa) 2 CD Badgeholders
> Label $52
>
> Led Zeppelin - The Dragon Snake" (5/21/77 Houston,
> TX SB) 3 CD Empress Valley Label 3 CD set $125
>
> Jeff Beck - Sapporo 05 2 CD Empress Valley $47
>
> Rock ON,
>
> E...

......................................................................................


Do you really believe that these aforementioned bootlegs are being pressed in lots of 50 instead of 500 or 1000?????

If so, then they'd charge "collectors" prices for them and they'd be calling them "rare" items.

Ask some of the Led Zeppelin collectors on this site about prices and if they can't find any LZ silver boot they 'really' want.... if they're willing to pay the outrageous prices being asked by boot dealers these days.

Originally Posted by Five

you can either keep the recordings out of circulation or circulate them so widely that nobody can make a profit. I prefer the 2nd option.

Lets say for the sake of discussion that somebody might possibly have an heretofore uncirculated Led Zeppelin recording. If we were to seed it simultaneously on TTD, dime, R-O, eztree, and a dozen other sites, do you honestly believe that a bootlegger wouldn't jump on it, getting his copy directly from a B/T site and press up 10,000 immediately?

The only debate here is: Will the first 10,000 copies be sold before the torrents all end? I'd venture a guess that half will be sold to registered users of R-O with a large quantity going to the same folks who would download a master clone anyway.

As someone on a Rolling Stones bootleg site once typed: "I don't want some CDr burned by some monkey whan I can buy a finished product with classy artwork" - "You know you can't get a better deal than an 'original silver boot' first pressing."

[Five]

you're keen... of course I believe every word of the LA times

but anyways Robert Godwin was beginning to write at length about the end of an era when cdr copying became possible in the 90's. bootleggers are pressing in smaller quantities. Rock Show by Antrabata (l-z) was only 100 and I used to be able to find stuff like that in Toronto. Now I know of one guy who's selling cdr & dvdr stuff and that's it in the city. He's selling mp3-sourced stuff, too. I used to buy bootlegs at many stores before I finally got into trading. Things are not what they used to be.

The reason why I find the numbers believeable is because of (a) the price they get (b) most ppl won't listen to "rare unreleased recordings" they just don't give a fuck... especially if its aud (c) anybody with half a brain realizes that you can copy cds in this day and age and can get more shows than anyone ever thought you could in the old days. Remember, I'm speaking from the perspective of somebody who didn't discover trading for a long time, I just collected bootlegs. I did tape a couple shows, tho.

The record companies are putting out tons of outtakes these days because they saw a market in it... DVD movie releases are full of outtakes now. And a lot of that is because the bootleggers exposed an ignored market. But when it comes to aud tapes or even live stuff in general it will never see mass distribution, the officially-released live stuff is a drop in the bucket to what gets taped and the reason it isn't released is because there is no market in it.

...and just to play devil's advocate with myself one thing I will give those bootleggers credit for is the fact that those silver cds will last something like 100 years, much longer than copies circulating online. Vinyl lasts even longer. So everything that has never been bootlegged will have a difficult time surviving many years into the future fwiw. Digital has to keep moving or it sort of fades away.

[freezer]

Sorry, I still disagree.

If the bootleggers weren't making money, why would LZ 2/28/75 be on it's 10th different boot release?

I have CDr copies of 4 of these: Louisiana Hayride; Bon Soir, Baton Rouge; LSU Baton Rouge, and In from the Freezer; - all are from the same unverified high gen unverified copy, all sound like they came from pretty worn-out tape copies, not a one is different.

10 different boots all from the same poor source.

Now you're about to get a boot of a torrent of a boot of a boot ad infinitum.

Somebody's making money at $97.00 a pop.

Originally Posted by Five

one thing I will give those bootleggers credit for is the fact that those silver cds will last something like 100 years

Well, now, that's something that will cheer up everyone; that a boot of a torrent of a boot of a boot of an infinitely bad copy of a high gen tape will last longer than the master recording.

Is that an arguement for all tapers to turn over their master tapes to bootleggers immediately?