To shntool md5, or not to shntool md5

[katnapz]

I think I'm confused, or confusing myself by my reading of the seeded torrents and FAQ for this site.

Rule 10 concerns the inclusion of shntool md5's, and that's cool with me...I just spent the last couple figuring out how to get the thing setup and running (thanks RainDawg for your steps and your additional comments in a different posting in here).

Now, when shntool creates the txt file, it defaults to a specific name format each time (meaning it puts the word "shntool" in the txt file name), but when I'm looking at some of the seeded torrents here on TTD, I'm seeing what appears to be wholefile md5's included.
Are people creating the shntool txt files and then changing the names to a ".md5" extension?
What is considered the proper naming format for shntool files then?

Two examples of uploads I'm looking at are the "Santana 1988-04-18 Sunrise, FL (SHN)" (the uploader mentions using mkwact and I don't see any other md5s posted as txt files) and "Flotsam and Jetsam 1980s Flots Till Death Los Angeles CA (SHN)." I haven't downloaded either of these torrents btw.

I'm not picking on these two posts, they just happen to have good info uploaded, and the second one is noted as coming from STG, and I don't remember hearing about shntool there often (don't see a "shntool.txt" either).

Are these folks not following rule 10, or am I reading the rule wrong and posting with the wholefile md5s (if original) acceptable as a substitute?

There was also a torrent upload where RainDawg specifically thanked the poster for including the shntool file (don't remember which one now), and in the info file posted you can see the "shntool" name in those files. So that also makes me wonder about those other posts if RD is taking the time to thank someone on that point in one thread.

I'm itching to start putting some stuff up, but want to make sure I'm doing things right....don't want to waste anyone's download quotas with a bad torrent.

One final question as I can't figure this out either. Under the FLAC fingerprints FAQ, it says, "FLAC's use of the fingerprint allows users much more versatility while still maintaining the same core functionality : verifiying that the audio in your files has not altered since it was seeded. Of course, a user may still use wholefile md5 checks on .flac files if they see fit, but this is a practice performed out of ignorance rather than functionality. Using FLAC's fingerprinting is much more useful than wholefile md5 checking, and should be used 100% of the time."

I understand not using wholefile md5s for FLACs, but should we be including shntool md5 checks with FLAC uploads?
....something, something, something about you folks wanting to create a database of the checks for torrents uploaded? but I don't remember where that part is in the FAQ, and my head hurts from thinking too much at this point.

Alright...let 'er rip folks...and thanks for the guidance and patience

[Five]

The FLAC fingerprint is fine when you're seeding FLAC files. SHNtool md5s are very important when seeding SHN or APE format for many reasons, which RainDawg will soon drop by and explain better than I could.

[RainDawg]

OK...long post...let me respond the best I can.

Originally Posted by katnapz

Now, when shntool creates the txt file, it defaults to a specific name format each time (meaning it puts the word "shntool" in the txt file name), but when I'm looking at some of the seeded torrents here on TTD, I'm seeing what appears to be wholefile md5's included. Are people creating the shntool txt files and then changing the names to a ".md5" extension?
What is considered the proper naming format for shntool files then?

......

Are these folks not following rule 10, or am I reading the rule wrong and posting with the wholefile md5s (if original) acceptable as a substitute?

No, these are traditional wholefile md5s. We have been somewhat prudent in the past few weeks in enforcing rule 10, as many people had some difficulty in getting shntool setup. There is no accepted naming format for the .txt file containing shntool md5s, but the script I put on my site (presumably the one you're using) names it like that to draw differentiation. shntool md5s should never get a .md5 extenstion. At some point, when we get some more definitive ways of setting up and using shntool, we'll enforce this rule more rigidly.

Originally Posted by katnapz

There was also a torrent upload where RainDawg specifically thanked the poster for including the shntool file (don't remember which one now), and in the info file posted you can see the "shntool" name in those files. So that also makes me wonder about those other posts if RD is taking the time to thank someone on that point in one thread.

I did that because some people have asked me for help getting this setup, and I drop by their thread and thank them for going to the trouble of doing it this way. I've not posted in every single thread, but when there is prior discussion between me and the seeder, I feel it's good courtesy to let them know, publically, that I appreciate their efforts.

Originally Posted by katnapz

One final question as I can't figure this out either. Under the FLAC fingerprints FAQ, it says, "FLAC's use of the fingerprint allows users much more versatility while still maintaining the same core functionality : verifiying that the audio in your files has not altered since it was seeded. Of course, a user may still use wholefile md5 checks on .flac files if they see fit, but this is a practice performed out of ignorance rather than functionality. Using FLAC's fingerprinting is much more useful than wholefile md5 checking, and should be used 100% of the time."
I understand not using wholefile md5s for FLACs, but should we be including shntool md5 checks with FLAC uploads?

shntool md5s and FLAC fingerprints are an identical value, they are just outputted into a text file in a slightly different format. Technically speaking, you could include either, and it would work fine. For FLAC, since there is an inherant support for it, we just ask that people use the ffp. Since SHN and APE does not have such ability, the only option here is the shntool md5, so that is what we'd rather have. Wholefile checks on FLAC files is a very bad practice; it's overly restrictive and pointless.

Originally Posted by katnapz

....something, something, something about you folks wanting to create a database of the checks for torrents uploaded? but I don't remember where that part is in the FAQ, and my head hurts from thinking too much at this point.

Yes, one of the goals that has been harder to get off the ground than I thought it would be is a database of seeds and fingerprints. If we build it on wholefile md5, it will hold people back from tagging or converting their files. However, my vision was to create a database just built on shntool md5 or ffp (identical values, of course) so that people could check that the audio was consistent with the original seed, but feel free to rename, convert, tag, add seektables, etc, and not screw up the md5 check.

[katnapz]

Ok, I've got it now. and thanks for the explaination as I was seeing conflict between the posts and the FAQ.

So:
-If I post FLAC, then make sure there's a fingerprint file. MD5 of any kind need not apply...unless the person is weird and would prefer to do a shntool file instead of fingerprint file

-If I post SHN, then create a shntool txt file and include it (creation name is fine). Wholefile md5's should be included if created with the original SHN's, well, just because there should be original md5's with SHN's

-If a post of a previous SHN torrent is done (from a different torrent site) that didn't have a shntool file, create one prior to torrenting it on TTD

-If a post of a previous FLAC torrent is done (from a different site) then it'd better have a fingerprint file from the previous posting

Bet you're just itching for me to go back to work on Monday so I leave you alone

[RainDawg]

Originally Posted by katnapz

So:
-If I post FLAC, then make sure there's a fingerprint file. MD5 of any kind need not apply...unless the person is weird and would prefer to do a shntool file instead of fingerprint file

Right...FFP only is the best option for FLAC seeds. Shntool md5 would be OK, but redundant.

Originally Posted by katnapz

-If I post SHN, then create a shntool txt file and include it (creation name is fine). Wholefile md5's should be included if created with the original SHN's, well, just because there should be original md5's with SHN's

Yes, if the set was circulated with an md5, and you kept the files the same, the keep that in the torrent. But when you upload the seed, put the shntool md5 into the "fingerpring" window.

Originally Posted by katnapz

-If a post of a previous SHN torrent is done (from a different torrent site) that didn't have a shntool file, create one prior to torrenting it on TTD

Yup...

Originally Posted by katnapz

-If a post of a previous FLAC torrent is done (from a different site) then it'd better have a fingerprint file from the previous posting

No, if you got a FLAC file that didn't contain a fingerprint file, but rather had a wholefile md5, create an ffp from what you have and delete the wholefile (after verifying it, of course). FFP is the required form of file verification for FLAC seeds here.

Originally Posted by katnapz

Bet you're just itching for me to go back to work on Monday so I leave you alone

Nah, I love the the fact that Technobabble has been active these past few days, thanks in large part to your posts. Any good technical discussion is great to have, and that's why I read and respond to almost every post here!

[Five]

Originally Posted by RainDawg

Nah, I love the the fact that Technobabble has been active these past few days, thanks in large part to your posts. Any good technical discussion is great to have, and that's why I read and respond to almost every post here!

Same here! All of your posts have been helpful to us, katnapz... besides, I love that cute cat in your avatar.

[katnapz]

Originally Posted by Five

Same here! All of your posts have been helpful to us, katnapz... besides, I love that cute cat in your avatar.

Oh yeah, you're definately too nice to be an eight....you sure you're not a seven? (see the post I made in the Band names origins thread) You know, one site says sevens have a "monkey-mind" energy...I'm serious!

[Five]

Originally Posted by katnapz

Oh yeah, you're definately too nice to be an eight....you sure you're not a seven? (see the post I made in the Band names origins thread) You know, one site says sevens have a "monkey-mind" energy...I'm serious!

well, now you're talking Chinese astrology! I know a 7 who's also a Monkey so go figger. I get pushed to 7 under stress... when you see me in a huge big blowout there's a point where the bottom just falls out and I shift to 7.

I'm quite positive I'm Five

[katnapz]

Ok, hopefully only one more question....

I have a show that was previously torrented to STG in Feb 04. It is two discs and they are each in their own subfolder. When I run shntool on the master folder it doesn't recognize the shns in the subfolders. Do I run shntool for each subfolder and leave the txt files separate, do I combine them into one txt file....may RD has a different batch file to help?
The only reason I'm holding back on just pushing ahead is I don't know how this "big database in the sky" you want to do will work so I want to make my txt file compatible.
...or maybe I'll just post that Janis show I have as it's only one disc....anyone want "Port Chester Restoration Project" for Aug 8, 1970? I grabbed it from the shn newsgroup in Sep 2003...

Thanks for the help folks...

[Five]

I think etree would recommend doing one .txt file for each disc, but I personally prefer a single .txt file for the checksums no matter how many discs. I also like to put all the files in one folder. I'm not sure what RainDawg will say about this.

[katnapz]

Originally Posted by Five

I know a 7 who's also a Monkey so go figger. I get pushed to 7 under stress... when you see me in a huge big blowout there's a point where the bottom just falls out and I shift to 7.

I'm quite positive I'm Five

Yeah, I knew a guy back out of high school who was definately a 7...we even called him a monkey by the way he acted, but he was a 4 when it came to romantic relations...could just never settle...(well, he eventually did I heard but I don't know how that turned out)

[katnapz]

Originally Posted by Five

I think etree would recommend doing one .txt file for each disc, but I personally prefer a single .txt file for the checksums no matter how many discs. I also like to put all the files in one folder. I'm not sure what RainDawg will say about this.

I like one file too as then you can tell if a disc is missing. As you know, silvers aren't always "one show" and you never know who leaves out that second disc 'cause it didn't sound good enough.

[RainDawg]

Make different shntool md5s for each folder, but when you make the seed, post all of them into the single box in the upload screen for "fingerprints". I actually prefer to have a single file for everything, and usually combine it all into a single folder, but keeping them separate is fine too...to me it's just a matter of taste.

As long as it's all there, and all the fingerprints are put into the upload screen's window, it doesn't make a difference how you do it to me.

No, my batch file doesn't scan through all subfolders...that's a lot more work.

[Five]

Originally Posted by katnapz

Yeah, I knew a guy back out of high school who was definately a 7...we even called him a monkey by the way he acted, but he was a 4 when it came to romantic relations...could just never settle...(well, he eventually did I heard but I don't know how that turned out)

Yeah, but multiple types is sort of a cop-out, now isn't it? Everyone's got one dominant ego fixation. This Seven girl I was talking about is a complete failure when it comes to responsibility. You have to expect her to be two hours late if she shows up at all. But always cheerful when she does! Her love life is a complete wreck, I think that in love you need somebody to share not only your happiness, but also your pain and a Seven has to escape from pain so they have tremendous difficulty in relationships.

oh yeah, here's the part where I say "sorry for the hijack"

[RainDawg]

Hey guys, this forum is for "Technobabble" . I don't think we have a superstition forum here!