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#16
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
Nice! I had a DP give me some old stock, wasn't neg or Super 16 though, he had in his freezer at one time. He loaned me his old bolex and we went and did a cheesy horror short. I say all the time - I miss film. But I have adapted to video.
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#17
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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in my opinion, the important thing is that you a) don't pretend to know it all, b) are "always trying to improve yer capturing process", and c) are always willing to learn...no bullshit, no holier-than-thou attitude attributes i find in most of the film/video professionals i've met in taping/trading circles, but rarely in yer amateur "basement authorers"...they're way is the best, stamp my name all over it, artwork please can i get a seeder???? No members have liked this post.
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#18
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
werd, but it is a whole lot easier and cost effective now...like location sound, carrying a small HDD-based recorder and boom is a LOT easier than it used to be, but damn if 2" reel doesn't sound better, even on dialogue!
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#19
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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As far as quality goes, I like to take my processed video and subtract it from the original video. Doing this shows flat grey when the video is unaltered, and shows clearly where noise has been reduced, edges sharpened, etc. For a while I was using a technique that required 3 captures of the source, then the AVIsynth script would take the 2 closest pixels of the 3 captures and pass on that information. It was an effective method of filtering out the noise generated in playback, but I have since found a more effective all-around filter for spatio-temporal noise reduction. My cause celebre has been cascading compression. I have tried to impress on those that will listen how essential it is to avoid re-encoding previously encoded video. I have used MPEG2 video to patch a dropout in something I am working on, but that is on the order of a couple of seconds of video. There are those who don't think twice about re-encoding an entire video to employ color correction, noise reduction or even editing. When I suggest that they find an analog source instead, or employ a GOP-level editor if all frames are not being altered, they maintain that they have "improved" the MPEG2 source and it "looks better". I remain "skeptimistic" No members have liked this post.
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#20
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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This is my setup when it comes to transfering NTSC VHS: JVC HRS-9800U S-VHS Deck > AR Pro II Series S-Video Cable > Panasonic ES-10 (Pass through tbc/frame synchronizer, Line in NR turned ON, both in and output black levels set to darker) > AR Pro II Series S-Video Cable > Audio wires from vcr > Sony TR-740 Digital8 Camera (TBC/DNR Turned ON, used for temporal filtering) > firewire > JVC DRM-100 DVD Recorder The JVC is one of the best consumer model vcrs ever produced. Does an excellent job of playing back most tapes. The AR Pro II series is a heavy duty cable that delivers a a very vivid looking picture, rich with colors and full of detail. The ES10 works with the JVC to help correct some of the jitter that JVC doesnt, it also corrects the black level. Theres also a Line IN NR that helps to further clean up the image. The Sony tr740, that AAR doesnt like, doesnt believe this has pass through filters but based on my experience, it does. As evident by the hundreds of transfers ive done and many of which were upgrades to circulated versions. I use a firewire from that camera into a JVC DRM100. Now I dont suggest the JVC DRM100 encodes EVERYTHING the best. Certainly to record a tv broadcast, I wouldnt use this. But as far as vhs is concerned, based on the experience I have and my eye, this is the way to go and you can quote me on that as a very important tool in encoding vhs. Why is that? Because one it has noise reduction filters that help to clean up the noise on vhs sources, especially multi gen tapes. The result is something that is often cleaner and better than the source. I also use an Aiwa MX1 in transferring PAL tapes. No members have liked this post.
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#21
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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#22
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
I've had great results with my JVC HR-DVS3U. The stabilizer worked wonders on a VHS tape I had of DMB 1992-04-05 Afton, VA
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#23
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
i'm going to respond to you here and not in PM sabkisscrue...
reason being -- this is a discussion that needs to occur publicly so that others can chime in, and most importantly, those doing transfers in the future will know the various methods, pros and cons of each, and make decisions based on THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTPUT QUALITY i think we all agree that best quality is the goal Quote:
and i've never said the 9800 wasn't a good SVHS deck...never used one personally, but from what i've heard from associates and reviews i've read, its a great deck for the money...so no arguments there Quote:
1. no where on Sony's site does it say that this camera employs a TBC or any sort of DNR filters...not saying 100% it doesn't -- but don't you think they'd mention those features in the specs or overview re: its A>D pass through capabilities? its something every manufacturer clearly touts *if* a piece of gear utilizes such features: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...uctId=11034705 also no mention of it on camcorderinfo.com -- by far one of the best online resources for in depth info and testing on cameras...they make no mention of these features either, something they wouldn't omit if it indeed had TBC or DNR: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der_review.htm 2. all that aside, lets just assume the camera does employ both TBC and DNR... would using it as a pass through give you better results than not using any TBC/DNR in the chain? most of the time, sure are there better resources out there [for not a lot of money] that'll give you far superior results than the cam? DEFINITELY [see next answer] Quote:
but one that "is what it is" and applies the filters automatically is not nearly as desirable as one that allows you to control the various parameters individually, based on what that particular tape is needing its like those audio "re-masterers" -- they get a copy of Audition or SoundForge, take an old cassette recording, see the "Noise Reduction" filter and think "that'll make it better"...to their untrained ear it *appears* to sound better cuz the hiss & noise floor have been lessened, however they've destroyed the frequency spectrum and overall sound...are there ways to apply "noise reduction" that doesn't destroy it all together? yes...does that occur with a one-stop-filter? NO! it takes multiple filters & countless hours by a trained engineer to do "nosie reduction" on an audio source LESSON -- "automatic" is never as good as "manual"...and when dealing with multi-gen VHS sources, well worn tapes, etc -- manual control of each parameter is a NECESSITY for producing the BEST POSSIBLE OUTPUT QUALITY Quote:
[despite the fact that pretty much anyone in the video field would laugh at quoting a site like videohelp.com for tech info, i linked to those Lordsmurf posts anyway cuz i know how you revere that site and its "pros" like senor smurf] you have said repeatedly [including your description of yer set up a few posts above ^^] that you use the Sony DCR-TRV740 Digi8 camcorder, the JVC DRM100 standalone DVD recorder, & the Panasonic DMR-ES10 standalone DVD recorder all for their DNR & TBC functions, correct? but according to Lordsmurf himself in this videohelp.com thread: Quote:
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and we've already established that Sony DCR-TRV740 camcorder's TBC/DNR functions are seemingly non-existant as well...so we're left with absolutely no TBC in your transferring chain, and one stage of DNR being done at the end in the JVC standalone DVD recorder, with no control over "what" and "how much" is being processed/filtered meanwhile, you could've bought a *brand new* entry-level A>D converter, such as the ADVC300, for less $ than two used pieces of equipment you've listed above [according to the average used prices you've quoted]...the ADVC300 definitively utilizes both TBC and DNR, will generate SMPTE color bars [necessary for color correction], and most importantly all parameters are manually adjustable by the user = a better quality capture No members have liked this post.
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#24
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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It should be pretty well documented. But it does in fact employ tbc/dnr. Its in the menu. Quote:
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As far as "better quality capture", that is subjective. In my opinion, you as a pro would be pleased with the quality of my captures. No members have liked this post.
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#25
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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you touched on 3 separate topics which need to dealt with individually: FILTERING: i think we've pretty much cleared up the subject of DNR/TBC re: method/devices yer using...but even assuming it does improve picture quality over using nothing at all, are there other devices available that would improve picture quality even further while still staying within a low-end budget? yes CABLING: thats a whole nother discussion that everyone will have a differing opinion on and in all honesty, has a negligible effect at best and very little quantitative data supporting one way or the other...so to each their own on brands of cable ENCODING: an *extremely* important process that most people overlook...and no offense, but this is FACT -- a built-in encoder on a standalone DVD recorder is inferior to a program-based encoding program because: 1. its encoding on-the-fly...this means its capturing, processing the information, filtering/etc, and then compressing all at the same time...which leads to digital artifacts, dropped frames, "glitches", and many other issues 2. most standalone DVD recorders will only let you set bit rates according to approximate "quality levels" [i.e. XP/SP/LP]...what it doesn't allow you to control is how many passes it makes [2-pass vs 1-pass] or CBR vs VBR...i think everyone can agree that 2-pass encoding is a good idea all the time, but a necessity when it comes to non-master or aged/"imperfect" sources like we're talking about... not to mention the audio aspect, with some recorders allowing you to choose between the desired lossless PCM stream or a compressed stream [AC3]...but many that simply compress the audio to AC3 automatically with no option otherwise 3. there are numerous encoding engines out there, all which use various methods and algorithms...they are not all the same, quality varies greatly...and there is no question here -- 99% of the standalone units use very basic, "low-end" encoders for compression when compared with software-based encoders 4. your standalone recorder [JVC DRM100] and most standalones out there capture at Half D1, which is a resolution of 352x480 (NTSC) and 352x576 (PAL)...note that this is half of the horizontal resolution of standard D1 [DVD specs] some will bring up the fact that VHS itself only has a resolution of 350x480 (NTSC), so why would capturing at full D1 even matter? loooong story short -- i can say results vary, i've seen instances where you got better quality at Half D1, and others at full D1...also depends on what, if any, processing you are going to be doing in the editing process [color correction, etc] either way, you want the options so you can get the best out of that particualr source ============================================== again, i haven't spent all this time breaking all this shit down in order to make you look like an idiot or say yer transfers suck...and although it seems you've created quite a reputation for yerself across the online trading communities, i'm trying to ignore all that and keep this discussion technological in nature so that anyone wanting to get into or already doing VHS transfers will know the facts, the specs, the options, and how they all relate to output quality there's really no arguing that standalone DVD recorders are an outdated technology, and 99.9% of the models they put on the market were designed for home-use and "basement dub houses"...that's why they were never used on any scale by the professional video industry, they produce an inferior "product" compared to other tools available...the tools available now in 2010 make this fact even more apparent CLIFF NOTES: you will get far more desirable results in your VHS transfers using a dedicated A>D converter, with manually adjustable filtering [DNR, TBC, etc], and capturing with a dedicated NLE [Final Cut, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, etc] once all editing/processing has been done in yer NLE, use a software-based encoder to compress down to yer desired format [DVD, DVD9, Blu-ray, or whatever]...if yer a Mac person like myself, i use a variety of encoders depending on output format -- Episode Pro, Sorensen Squeeze Pro, or Compressor for PC users, i know Cinemacraft makes an excellent encoder, Grass Valley's Procoder also highly revered...and NLE's like Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere come bundled with compression engines that will give far better results than any SA recorder No members have liked this post.
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#26
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
its apparent that you skirt the factual parts of the discussion and instead like to stear it back to the subjective, your opinion
but by gones, i'll address them anyway Quote:
well a Flip MinoHD shoots just as good a picture as the Sony EX3...and i've got a 2ft cock, which my woman will even confirm FACTS my man, FACTS--specs, manufacturing documentation, etc...but even if it does have TBC/DNR, it still doesn't address the fact a dedicated TBC/DNR/ProcAmp that are *manually controllable* will provide far better results Quote:
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again with personal attacks & trying to demean others in order to skirt the issues! as for the "one show i've u/led from a VHS transfer" -- yer research skills re: what people have u/led are lacking to say the least! but neither the # of shows i've u/led nor whether you *think* the AG1980P was a "professional deck" or not matters very little [i guess a $2K SVHS desktop editor labeled "Pro Line" & used primarily in broadcast & production houses isn't a "pro deck" in yer estimation ...and btw, the TBC on the ADVC300 blows the built-in TBC on the 1980P away -- again, built-in can rarely compete with a dedicated hardware TBC] what matters is image quality -- and when it comes to a particular VHS tape sometimes my Panasonic will better, sometimes another make/model like yer JVC will do better -- lots of factors, and its never a constant...which is why its best to have numerous decks available, and if you don't its best to have someone else with a different deck transfer for comparison...i myself have considered picking up that JVC deck you have as an extra option i have transferred a number of tapes that i'm pretty sure would have done better on a different deck, but i didn't spend the time and i ended up with a product that coulda been better...some i'm planning on re-transferring, others i don't have the original tapes for...because of my choice to simply stick with the gear thats in front of me at the moment, and not try transferring on other decks, its now like Tupac said, "That's just the way it is" Quote:
it was made by Canopus, which was then bought by Green Valley...back when you first came to this site you tried to tell me in a thread about transferring that the ADVC300 didn't have TBC...i even posted a link to the manufacturer's site then, but here it is again: http://www.grassvalley.com/products/advc300 is it the best out there? no...would a full frame 4:2:2 TBC give better results a lot of the time? sure...but from the A>D devices i've used and those that my associates have used that employ TBC & DNR, i can honestly say its the best unit out there in the <$2K range [its currently running around $375 New] would i be pleased with yer DVD recorders built DNR & TBC? some of the times yeah, and others no...yer missin the fucking point!!! its about being able to control your DNR filter's various parameters versus as opposed to an automatic filter that does what it thinks is best...i'm sorry, but the hands-on approach wins every time No members have liked this post.
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#27
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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#28
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
Porn Scene Investigator Bruuuce?
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#29
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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#30
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Re: VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]
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Heres the facts, AAR. Im getting the results im looking for WITHOUT having to use a professional proc amp. Now you might disagree with the way im going about doing it. What matters is im getting the results im looking for. Quote:
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In terms of tbc stability, the panasonic is one of the best. I wish I could own a deck that had the image quality/dnr filters of the JVC with the tbc of the panasonic. Quote:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hods?p=1961020 What do you think of Lordsmurf's opinion on the ADVC300? Quote:
Does that mean this piece of equipment is a piece of garbage? No. Would you benefit from using this unit? Yes you would. Why? Because I see with multi generated tapes like the Blind Melon that you authored, the tape would benefit from being cleaned up with the DNR filters of that machine. I pretty much think any VHS no matter if its 1st gen or multi generated would benefit from the filters and encoding quality of this machine. No members have liked this post.
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