Reconsider ISO posting policy?

[PencilGeek]

As U2Lynne knows, I'm the original taper of many shows -- spanning 30 years. All of my shows are the master recordings.

Many of these shows are worthy of being mastered as DVD-Audio in addition to the standard CD-Audio. We tried releasing Stevie Wonder @ Greek Theater as DVD-Audio, and it eventually got pulled because too many people complained they couldn't play it. It was presumed the posting was in error, but after looking into this, I don't think the posting was at fault. I believe the posting was fine.

I have two DVD-Audio players: My primary Denon 3910, and my secondary Onkyo DV-SP800.

I've been debugging this for three days now, and here's what I've discovered.

My DVD-Audio mastering software will play the DVD-Audio on either of these machines. However, if I use the AUDIO_TS files themselves and use NERO to burn, the DVD-A will play fine on my Denon, but won't play at all on my Onkyo. Next I tested a NERO DVD-COPY operation instead, and that works fine. So that eliminates at least one category of bugs in NERO. Next I burned the ISO, and that worked every single time without failure.

Following these experiments, I used some DVD diagnostics software to try and get a technical view of how the disc was encoded, and then I duplicated that exact scheme with NERO options -- guess what -- it didn't work. I then searched the web and found many older DVD players had problems unless the disc was encoded as UDF-1.02 file system, instead of any of the newer UDF versions (this DVD-A is encoded as UDF). So I tried overriding the default UDF encoding in NERO and forced it to burn at 1.02 -- it didn't work.

So it would appear the only guaranteed method to ensure the disc plays on the widest variety of players, is by burning the ISO file itself. The ISO file was guaranteed to run on any player.

So now, what do we do at TTD? I'd like to distribute some of my most worthy shows as DVD-A, but I don't want another fiasco of people complaining they can't play it -- all because whatever software they're using doesn't set whatever options are necessary to burn the disc properly.

I would propose that TTD break new ground here, and allow ISO file posting under strict guidelines. For example, only allow them from trusted traders; only allow them for DVD-A; and only allow them when the trusted trader is the original taper. You'd basically be trusting them at their word; but you know who these people are, and you know whether or not you can trust them (use your judgement). I'm personally only interested in making my own shows available; I have no interest in posting anything else, by anybody else, found or traded by any other means. I only want to post my own stuff.

You could also set up a 'moderated' posting policy for DVD-A ISO files. Postings would be submitted and seeded by the original author. You guys burn them to a VIRTUAL DVD drive and check that the contents match the fingerprints supplied by the author. You'd be getting so few of these that I don't think this would be too much of a burden.

So what do you say? Ready to break new ground and give yourselves a leg up on your competition? Here's your chance.

/PG

[U2Lynne]

I did find it unfortunate that the show didn't seem to burn properly. Did anyone on the torrent manage to get it to burn properly? This was the first DVD-A that was seeded as an AUDIO_TS folder - I think the others were VIDEO_TS folders (show 1, show 2, show 3, show 4, show 5). I wonder if that is the difference that made them burnable and playable?

I have brought this thread up in Staff to get some opinions on allowing this in this particular instance.

[PencilGeek]

Originally Posted by U2Lynne

I did find it unfortunate that the show didn't seem to burn properly. Did anyone on the torrent manage to get it to burn properly? This was the first DVD-A that was seeded as an AUDIO_TS folder - I think the others were VIDEO_TS folders

It's my impression...and it's only an impression...that audio files burned as VIDIO_TS are essentially movies without a motion picture, and that the authoring software compresses the audio into AC3, Dolby Digital, or something like that.

I have DVD-Architect, and that's about as high-end consumer software as you can get for burning DVDs. When you use DVD-Architect for creating such a project, it doesn't give you a choice: you must compress the audio into the VIDIO_TS folders. I'll look into this again...but that's the whole reason I bought another $600 software package (WaveLab) -- just so it wouldn't compress my audio.

/PG

I can see why you want to seed an .iso file for DVD-A if you have made a menu or surround sound. But if they are stereo and with no menu why not just seed 24 bit FLACs? The FLACs could be checked in spectral much easier than if the audio was in .AOB files. Also the FLACs are compressed, so they take less time to seed and download. The .AOBs will contain uncompressed audio unless MLP is used, and an MLP encoder costs big bucks. They can author their own DVD-As with DVD-Audiofile (available free here: http://24bit.turtleside.com) or with Disc Welder. I guess it would be a problem for Mac users who don't have DVD-A authoring software available, though. Also, time must be spent authoring the DVD-A. There are advantages and disadvantages to seeding FLACs vs. an authored DVD-A is I guess what I'm saying.

Also, if the shows are 16/48, 24/48 or 24/96 they should be authored and seeded as DVD-Video if they are going to be authored for DVD IMO. Most people have a DVD-V player, not a DVD-A/V player, so for maximum compatibility for playback and no quality loss DVD-V would work better IMO. And DVD-V can be seeded with no need to use an .iso file.

Just my 2 cents.

Didn't see your last post. Audio DVD Creator will create audio only DVD-Vs with a menu using uncompressed LPCM at 16/48, 24/48, or 24/96, and it is only $40.
http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/

[dude87]

I agree the better approach is to seed 24 bit FLAC files. Not everyone has a DVD player capable of playing back DVD Audio (I do, but most people don't) but do play back 24 bit audio from their PCs. By distributing 24 bit FLACs people can either play them from their PC (if that's their choice) or author to DVD Audio discs using DiscWelder, DVD-Architect, or other paid programs or by downloading DVD Audiofile (for Windows systems) or the DVD Audio freeware tools available on Sourceforge (which I have used on Linux very successfully). Both DVD Audiofile and the DVD Audio freeware tools can create ISO images directly from FLAC files, you don't even have to convert first.

This results in audio files that are verifiable (via the FLAC fingerprints) and that can be played back in the most logical manner for the person downloading them (from their PC or by authoring a disc). Using DiscWelder or the DVD Audio tools is pretty straightforward - you don't get fancy menus (depending on your version of DiscWelder, at least) but you get a disc with distinct tracks, no gaps and excellent sound.

Just to revise my comments, the only reason to seed a DVD-Audio .iso IMO is for lossless surround sound (uncompressed or w/MLP), or for an MLP encoded seed. MLP lossless compression costs about $3000 though: http://www.discwelder.com/low/low_dChrome.htm There may be cheaper programs with MLP, but I'm not sure.

[PencilGeek]

Originally Posted by Tubular

Just to revise my comments, the only reason to seed a DVD-Audio .iso IMO is for lossless surround sound (uncompressed or w/MLP), or for an MLP encoded seed. MLP lossless compression costs about $3000 though: http://www.discwelder.com/low/low_dChrome.htm There may be cheaper programs with MLP, but I'm not sure.

So I'm playing with DVD-Architect v4.5 right now (just released about 1.5 weeks ago). I do see the LPCM option for DVD-V files. Now that I think about it, that option was there all along and now I remember why I didn't use it. At first, I was going to extract a 3.1 or 2.1 version of the show, and LPCM must be stereo -- so I moved over the DVD-Audio instead. But my experiments with 3.1 and 2.1 didn't pan out -- as the result didn't sound better than the original, but instead sounded worse. So I authored in stereo anyways -- which once again allows me to use LPCM for DVD-V.

Now I'm running into a different problem. DVD-Architect seems to project the resulting file at 8.5GB even though the sources are barely over 4.0GB. I know it's thinking I have a video source attached as well (which I don't). So if I can figure out a way to mute the video (or remove the video channel), then I think we'd be golden and get the project size down to 4.5 GB.

Now, regarding FLAC conversion and downloading some other tool to author to DVD-V (Audio). (I apologize in advance if this sounds a little harsh.) I'm not some type of idealists who's releasing my shows because "the music deserves to be free" (I'm a staunch capitalist at heart). I just happen to have been taping since I was 14 years old, and had professional recording gear since I was 18 years old and developed what I consider a very nice and rare collection spanning 30 years -- a collection that very few people know about (consisting mostly of jazz). I don't mind making my shows available to others, but it's going to be on my terms, not somebody else's terms. I essentially make the shows available in a format that I can use at home, and if others can benefit, then they'll get it for free. I also want to ensure the shows I release are in the best possible format, and least likely to be tampered with.

There's no convenient way that I can extract 20+ individual songs out of the original 96/24 WAV files (actually the un-down-sampled originals are even higher than 192/24). Likewise, I have absolutely no interest in getting yet another piece of software just so I can make a plurality of people happy.

Sorry for having to say it like that...but I want to make sure that everybody understands that, as the original taper, I'm doing others the favor by releasing my shows, and it's not incumbent on me to try to please everybody.

With that said as harsh as it even sounds to myself, I think you'd also find me one of the easiest going people you'd ever meet, and willing to give you anything out of my collection you want...without any need to reciprocate.

[direwolf-pgh]

you're the computer guy pencilgeek - figure it out

looking forward to some great sounds
thanks in advance

It's cool, you didn't come off too harsh to me. I hope this doesn't sound so harsh though: if you are taping and trading as an amateur, the music doesn't "deserve to be free", it is free. Unless it is sold, then they are sold bootlegs. There is really no way to guarantee that they are not tampered with, but there are rules about seeding unnecessary or bad remasters. I believe the mods have strict rules on this and only allow somone to remaster if they are good and have much experience. I don't think anyone would try to remaster a digital audience recording though. The worst they would do is convert to mp3 for their own personal use, and mp3s can't be seeded here. With FLAC there is just so much more that can be done with them much more easily, and someday there may be disc players that support data FLAC discs. I don't know if any iPod type players support 24/96, but maybe someday. Those 160 gig iPods could fit lots of 24/96 audio. Some of Denon's new receivers support FLAC. If someone only had a 40 kb/s upload connection, they might rather download and upload 2.6 gigs of a FLAC seed than 4.3 gigs of a DVD-Video or DVD-Audio. It's cool though, an authored audio only 24/96 DVD-V is a great thing. Saves people from buying a $40 program, and authoring time.

With shntool (free: www.etree.org ) you can join the .wav files into one big one without otherwise altering them, and with CD Wave (free: www.etree.org ) you can split them on sector boundaries without otherwise altering them. I don't know the prog DVD-Architect, someone else will have to help out with that.

Thanks for taping and trading, people here will love your seeds!

Also, and I don't want to start a war , what is your opinion of the Korg MR-1000 5.6 MHz 1-bit recorder vs. something like a Sound Devices 722 or 744 that records natively at 24/96 or 24/192? I have only heard 2.82 MHz SACDs, don't think I've ever heard 5.6 ones. I thought commercial 24/96 DVD-As had the edge, by far. I know there is controversy about which format sounds better. I read something about Sony using "wide DSD" @ 8 bit/high sample rate for recording and transfers because they realize the limitations of 1 bit recordings. I have read that the bit depth is much more significant than the sample rate once you get to about 60kHz or 90kHz; that more people can detect a difference in bit depth than sample rate once you reach about 60 or 90. Personally, I'd like to see companies release 64bit/96kHz AD converters, or 64/192 soon. This is a good read:
http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

[noir horse]

Which Nero application did you use to burn your test disc mentioned above? I've been playing with Nero 7 this afternoon and was unable to find anyway to burn this as a usable dvd-a, although I was able to listen to the files using Nero Showtime. Thanks.

[dude87]

I've got no issues with you deciding how you want to share your recordings, they're your recordings and you can do whatever you want with them. Personally, when I transfer analog masters to digital I cut the songs into individual tracks first and then author a DVD Audio - it's the easiest way for me to be able to break the DVD Audio disc into individual songs. Also, I can take a higher-resolution analog/digital conversion and then use Audacity to convert to 44.1/16 for regular CD. Once I've created individual WAV files for all the tracks converting them to FLAC is pretty easy. But if that's not how you work that's okay by me.

I've had trouble burning DVD Audio downloads that consist of a AUDIO_TS folder (although I didn't download the Stevie Wonder show you referenced above). I've never had a problem using FLAC files, though, which is why I think it's the best way to go. But that's all IMHO and what works for me.

dude87, if you need a free prog to dither/resample several .wav files as a batch, r8brain is a great one: http://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/

A while ago a guy wanted to convert a 24/96 FLAC seed to 16/44.1 so he could also burn a CD. He used Audacity, and at the end of every converted .wav there was a little bit of silence added, so when he burned the CD there were gaps between tracks. It isn't really a problem if you are resampling/dithering the whole show as one big .wav file, but for a show that has already been split up it sucks, you have to manually delete the silence at the end of each track.

[PencilGeek]

Originally Posted by Tubular

It's cool, you didn't come off too harsh to me. I hope this doesn't sound so harsh though: if you are taping and trading as an amateur, the music doesn't "deserve to be free", it is free. Unless it is sold, then they are sold bootlegs. There is really no way to guarantee that they are not tampered with...

Correction, it's only free if I give it away -- which I've done already for 30 years. Never mind the 20 years I didn't trade anything because I found the attitudes and (tape-trading) politics of too many tape traders rather offensive to my free and giving nature. Having studied audio engineering in college for 3 years, of course I think I'm better at mastering my own stuff and knowing what to do with it than Joe Sixpack -- which is why I don't want Joe scewing with stuff that has my name on it.

Also, and I don't want to start a war , what is your opinion of the Korg MR-1000 5.6 MHz 1-bit recorder vs. something like a Sound Devices 722 or 744 that records natively at 24/96 or 24/192? I have only heard 2.82 MHz SACDs, don't think I've ever heard 5.6 ones...

I don't know if you looked up my previous posts, but I did buy the Kork MR-1000 to replace my Panasonic SV-255. When I was looking, I didn't know about the others you mentioned (and really have only heard of them, haven't looked them up). I did look at many choices and picked the Korg because it provided phantom power to my mics (no more preamps), was really no bigger than my SV-255, had separate DC power rails for mic preamps vs. digital circuitry, and boasted of high-end mic preamps (at least they boasted about them). I really didn't have time to do a full blown comparison between decks because I only had 3 days to find one, and figure out how to make it arrive at my house by a 10AM deliver immediately after a holiday weekend...so I could then drive 400 miles to see a show that evening. If you do the math on the Korg, then the 5.6Mhz DSD encoding is roughly a little higher than 192/24 PCM.

But from what I know of PCM, yes bit depth is really doing to make a huge difference. But that doesn't mean a 1-bit encoding can't accurately be converted to a word-based PCM encoding. After all, when the original music was sampled, they essentially had to put all of the bits into some type of FIFO and convert them from random 1's and 0's to a 24-bit value. And if you think about the problem of doing this operation, it sounds a lot like they had DSD style 1-bit data in the first place and figured out a numerical value to associate with those 24-bits of 1's and 0's. I say that because 1's and 0's don't really have any type of amplitude -- whereas a 24-bit value does represent amplitude.

For the only show I taped with it: sounded absolutely amazing, far better than anything I ever heard from DAT. But part of the credit is owed to the Greek Theater in LA -- because IMO, they've always had great sound as long as I've been going there. I was also sitting 13th row center, which is exactly where I estimate the best sound will be (depending on the theater and distance between the speakers). So this just may have been the perfect storm for the perfect recording: deck, seating, theater, pa system.

/PG

[PencilGeek]

Originally Posted by noir horse

Which Nero application did you use to burn your test disc mentioned above? I've been playing with Nero 7 this afternoon and was unable to find anyway to burn this as a usable dvd-a, although I was able to listen to the files using Nero Showtime. Thanks.

I used NERO-7 Ultra. The original DVD-A's were created using WaveLab6. I also used WL6 to create a separate set of ISO's. The DVD-A's made from the files, using NERO, would play fine on my Denon 3910, but wouldn't play on my Onkyo SP800...no matter what. But anything burned from the ISO (burned with NERO) or copied with NERO worked fine on both machines.

/PG