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skahorn
2004-11-28, 04:37 PM
hey all,
I've been reading the threads on master casettes to flac with interest. I've got a pile of vinyl boots and I'd like to make them available. Can I assume that I should follow the advice given for tape to flac since both are analog sources?

The vinyl is in great shape & I can use Cool Edit Pro 2.0 to clean it up if I have to.

From reading everything I think my work goes like this:

Make a clean digital copy of the vinyl, one large wave file for each disk side.
Analog direct into soundcard too noisy, buy or borrow a dat deck.
Get wav files into the computer.
Use Cool edit pro 2.0 to check dc offsets, correct if needed. Cool edit pro 2.0
Pop Click removal if needed.
Use cdwav to index wav file into individual tracks.

OK..
What do I have wrong or what am I missing?
Thanks for the help.

Once I get that far I'll read up on how to set it up properly as an upload

Oh yeah,
I want to start with a 1984 double lp of Los Lobos as soon as I figure out if it's a real bootleg or not. It's titled "Anselma is alive and well tonight" on the cover and "and now los lobos and the time to dance" on the spine. There is no text on the disk lablels just images.

ska

Five
2004-11-28, 05:06 PM
You've completely got the right idea here. A couple small notes, the impedence of a turntable is different from a cassette deck, so you'll need some kind of preamp for it. Perhaps the "phono" setting on your amp and take the lineout from there to your soundcard. When you go to fix "pops and clicks" using CEP avoid running a noise reduction algorithm on each entire side--instead find each individual pop and fix using Effects > Noise Reduction > Click and pop removal > Fill single click now. I know this is laborious but when you run a pop remover on an entire file it will remove a lot of the transients and dull the sound. Seeing as your vinyl is in great shape you should be able to eliminate the big pops one at a time and preserve more of the natural sound of the lps. I can post some screenshots to show you more specifically how to fill individual pops in the next couple days if you like.

New Homebrew
2004-11-28, 05:17 PM
Watch out for any little skips, jumps, or repeats when you play the record. They'll be preserved perfectly in your files! Monitor closely, with headphones if possible, and do over if the needle jumps or something.

Vinyl is really aggravating to make it right. Are you sure there isn't a tape out there somewhere?

wazoo2u
2004-11-28, 05:44 PM
Also, you need a really clean connection from the Magnetic Phono Cartridge into the preamp. Make sure there's no induced hum or buzz in the chain. Turntable should be physically isolated (Rubber Spring Feet or other insulator) from the rest of the room, so footsteps, and physical vibrations aren't transmitted through the pickup. Make sure the turntable isn't generating motor noise and rumble.

Still wanna do this ???? :lol: ;)

RainDawg
2004-11-28, 05:52 PM
Yeah, aside from wazoo's comments, I want to caution you about the pop-click removal. If you run it on large sections of audio, it will ruin it. You really to zoom in on just the pop (usually 10-20 samples or so) and maybe 5-10 samples on each side of it. Once you get the hang of finding and zooming on them, it gets easier....I just remember the first few times I tried this it took me forever just find the pop in the waveform. The temptation to select a whole second of audio and run the click remval tool can be high, but don't do it....

skahorn
2004-12-01, 07:59 PM
Good advice all!
I'm running the Disk on a very decent old Dennon turntable with a good cartridge, good short cables and rubber feet etc...
Line level is fine since the preamp, a Carver C-1, has a special input for the cartidge.
Unfortunately, I understand exactly why the pops & clicks have to be done by hand...
Oh well, the vinyl is in really good shape so there won't be many to do, anyway this stuff is a labor of love, right?
I've spent enough time working with CEP that I can find my way through the waveforms without too much trouble.
Five, I'd be interested in a few screen shots showing what you're talking about if you have the time.

Lets see, what else..
New Homebrew, I'm pretty sure there in no tape out there. I have seen very little Los Lobos at all. That, and the fact that the vinyl is in good shape, are why I'm contemplating doing this.

Wazoo2u,
I'm never sure I want to do half the things I do....
Thanks folks!

nonymouse
2004-12-01, 08:23 PM
How old is your needle? If it is more than 6 months old, I would replace it before doing the transfer. This has to be your first priority. If you have a cheap or worn-out needle it won't matter how good your connects are, or how pristine your vinyl is!

Five
2004-12-01, 10:16 PM
How to Fix Clicks/Pops with CEP/Audition

1. Listen for the click/pop. Toggle between Waveform and Spectral views to help you see it.

http://img58.exs.cx/img58/2470/01waveform_view.gif

Switch to your time display to "Samples".

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/1229/02spectralviewpe3.gif

2. Zoom in a little.

http://img30.exs.cx/img30/1434/03zoom.gif

3. Use spectral view, and select the center of the click/pop. Do as little processing as possible, try to use the center 40 samples or so. 99% of the time you will never have to select more than 100 samples to eliminate the click/pop. Select Effects>Noise Reduction>Click/Pop Eliminator>Fill Single Click Now.

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/1497/04fixsingleclick.gif

4. The Click/Pop is fixed! Listen carefully to the before/after and use Edit>Undo frequently during the repair.

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/6885/05fixedqe6.gif

I find it helps to keep notepad open to jot down numbers and an image editor to quickly grab screenshots (Alt + Print Scrn or Ctrl + Print Scrn then Ctrl + V to paste the image). Work slowly and carefully, and don't be satisfied until you know that you've done your best. Special thanks to rbuzz who taught me this technique back at STG.

Five
2004-12-01, 10:21 PM
Here's a couple more screenshots of clicks/pops in spectral view.

e6003
2004-12-02, 05:14 AM
I don't know if it's something Cool Edit Pro, etc., support, but I found a useful program called Wave Repair which is specifically designed for aiding the transfer of vinyl to CD. It has pop and click detection, but also allows you to manually redraw the waveform to eliminate such artefacts - rather than doing it automatically. I have used it with some success in the past for transferring some official LPs - but the pop and click removal process can be so labour-intensive that sometimes I've just given up and bought a cheap copy of the CD re-release! Find it at http://www.delback.co.uk/wavrep/ (demo version that works for 30 days or something, before you have to register it, unless you just want to use it as a hard disk audio recorder).

Five
2004-12-02, 07:21 AM
I don't know if it's something Cool Edit Pro, etc., support, but I found a useful program called Wave Repair which is specifically designed for aiding the transfer of vinyl to CD. It has pop and click detection, but also allows you to manually redraw the waveform to eliminate such artefacts - rather than doing it automatically. I have used it with some success in the past for transferring some official LPs - but the pop and click removal process can be so labour-intensive that sometimes I've just given up and bought a cheap copy of the CD re-release! Find it at http://www.delback.co.uk/wavrep/ (demo version that works for 30 days or something, before you have to register it, unless you just want to use it as a hard disk audio recorder).
Hmmm... Wave Repair looks like one of those programs that could either be really really good or really really bad, not sure which. Would it be possible to get a short before/after sample of your work using this program, e6003?

e6003
2004-12-02, 08:12 AM
It's about two years ago since I last used it! I have some albums that I transferred to CD, but I don't know if I kept the original WAV files and I'd have to rip the CDs I created. I only did about two albums with it, which I couldn't find on CD. I was going to dig it out to repair a section of a bottleg LP I intend to seed at some point, but probably not to do each little scratch or click. I'll see what I can do about the samples... (I think I'm also something of a cloth-ears who's easily pleased audio-wise :))

Five
2004-12-02, 08:20 AM
Thanks for your efforts and please do let me hear the before/afters when you get to doing those repairs. I'm very much against wholesale noise reduction being run on long stretches of audio. Even for on-the-spot fixes I'd have to see proof that this prog works well before I'd endorse it in any way. I'll grab a demo & try it out sometime soon, thanks for the link!

skahorn
2004-12-03, 10:46 AM
Thanks Five.

Awesome help!

Five
2004-12-03, 02:59 PM
Thanks Five.

Awesome help!
You're welcome! Let me know how it goes for you.

moemusic
2004-12-04, 11:33 AM
One other thing. Some sound cards can induce noise. So what I do is a make a 2-3 second silent wav before I record. Another on after teh first side of an album is done and another when both sides are done. This is to see if the noise of the sound card changes with time/temperature.

Then I compare these silent waves via the noise profile, If they're pretty close then i just use one as a noise profile to run the noise filter.

Also, what I do is I get a noise profile from the silence at the beginnng of the lp, between tracks, and at teh end of the lp. I then run noise filter using the noise profiles from the silence that surround tracks on each side of the silence. this gets rid of any "needle" noise. Needle noise changes as a function of the needle's distance from teh center. Obviously if you have a live album you can only sample the beginning and end of the lp for noise but that would be fine. Make sure any selection you are getting a noise profile from contains no music. Hafta becareful at track endings and find where the fade is actually silent. Live albums won't have this problem tho.

Now if anyone questions this method of reduceing noise, I'd be glad to provide a before and after sample of an album I've done in this manner. I'm on dial up atm so I'd hafta send a disc through mail.

Here's a good forum tht can address any questions regarding sound forge and cep/adobe aduiton

http://www.audiomastersforum.org/

RainDawg
2004-12-04, 11:44 AM
Here's a good forum tht can address any questions regarding sound forge and cep/adobe aduiton

http://www.audiomastersforum.org/
Wow...I didn't know about that site! Looks awesome, I thank you for that link. Five will like that one too, I'm sure!

jcrab66
2004-12-04, 12:46 PM
thanks for the link to that forum, awesome site!!!! :thumbsup

Five
2004-12-04, 02:37 PM
One other thing. Some sound cards can induce noise. So what I do is a make a 2-3 second silent wav before I record. Another on after teh first side of an album is done and another when both sides are done. This is to see if the noise of the sound card changes with time/temperature.

Then I compare these silent waves via the noise profile, If they're pretty close then i just use one as a noise profile to run the noise filter.

Also, what I do is I get a noise profile from the silence at the beginnng of the lp, between tracks, and at teh end of the lp. I then run noise filter using the noise profiles from the silence that surround tracks on each side of the silence. this gets rid of any "needle" noise. Needle noise changes as a function of the needle's distance from teh center. Obviously if you have a live album you can only sample the beginning and end of the lp for noise but that would be fine. Make sure any selection you are getting a noise profile from contains no music. Hafta becareful at track endings and find where the fade is actually silent. Live albums won't have this problem tho.

Now if anyone questions this method of reduceing noise, I'd be glad to provide a before and after sample of an album I've done in this manner. I'm on dial up atm so I'd hafta send a disc through mail.

Here's a good forum tht can address any questions regarding sound forge and cep/adobe aduiton

http://www.audiomastersforum.org/
Thanks very much from me, too, moe! Looks like a fantastic forum now I've got so much reading to do. I never knew there were so many 96/2000/1.2 users out there!

Now, you're getting into using Effects>Noise Reduction>Noise Reduction which is what RainDawg would call a black art (it seems that he's calling everything a black art these days--just kiddin' ;)). In the pro audio world you're dealing with real audio engineers but over here we're in the land of audiophiles, some of whom are completely against nr after seeing too many shows "fixed up" by amateurs and subsequently ruined from using heavy handed nr of this kind. People trying this for their first and second time will have a lot of trouble hearing the artifacts, this is how it was for me too. I had to have a friend tell me "I can hear the nr working, you fucked it up" before I became aware.

Anyhow, I'm very interested in this technique. I used to have one of those "linear tracking" turntables where the needle was always straight but I haven't seen them around for a long time. Let's say that I transfer a radio transcription disc I have. I get a friend who's a DJ to bring over a Techniques 1200 with topflite needle and phono preamp, then record a side. Side 1 is 20 minutes with a short silent break in the middle where the commercial goes. I get three really nice smooth noise samples beginning and ending on the zero crossings with no bumps. Now how do I appy this? I could run nr 3 times, using the first sample for the first 6.5 minutes, second sample for the next 6.5 minutes, third sample for the last 6.5 minutes... I'm concerned that it won't be seamless or am I over-analyzing?

RainDawg
2004-12-04, 03:44 PM
Now, you're getting into using Effects>Noise Reduction>Noise Reduction which is what RainDawg would call a black art (it seems that he's calling everything a black art these days--just kiddin' ;)). In the pro audio world you're dealing with real audio engineers but over here we're in the land of audiophiles, some of whom are completely against nr after seeing too many shows "fixed up" by amateurs and subsequently ruined from using heavy handed nr of this kind. People trying this for their first and second time will have a lot of trouble hearing the artifacts, this is how it was for me too. I had to have a friend tell me "I can hear the nr working, you fucked it up" before I became aware.
Hey, wait just a damn minute here :grr: What am I calling a black art? I know I called DVD burner/media combos black art. Oh, that and clip restoration. Well, you're right....throw noise reduction in there too I guess :cool: . But, in the case presented here, where a selection of "perfect noise" (that characterstic of the system) is being intentionally recorded, it is fairly simple to gather it's profile and remove just that from the remainder of the recording. I'd still recommend that someone pay close attention and ask for a peer-review before distributing it, but it's nearly not as much a hand-waving act as tackling noise reduction head-on with an unknown source. The hardest part of it is having the ear to find the noise buried under the music...with a sample like this, he doesn't need to do that.

I learned the ills of Noise Reduction the hard way....by trading for stuff where people had abused it. I developed such a disgust for it, that I started reading more on how it works, and then trying it my own ways.....just to make sure I could make accurate criticisms of those recordings I hated. It's not easy...."Remember kids, audio engineers are trained professionals. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!".

moemusic
2004-12-05, 07:01 AM
I get three really nice smooth noise samples beginning and ending on the zero crossings with no bumps. Now how do I appy this? I could run nr 3 times, using the first sample for the first 6.5 minutes, second sample for the next 6.5 minutes, third sample for the last 6.5 minutes... I'm concerned that it won't be seamless or am I over-analyzing?

Glad you all like that forum. There's a lot of knowledgeable people there that are willing to help. I've asked questions and the response time is fairly quick.

Trying to filter noise that's in the background of music is rather difficult and I agree that this should be left to professionals. I'd never attempt it. Not yet any way. But you'd be surprised at how much noise you can filter out just by using a noise profile from the sound card (silent wav) and at teh beginning and end of an lp.

I share your concerns about the masses trying to use filters. Maybe a system could be set up for people to record their lp's and send the wavs/shn's to someone here that can do the noise reduction. Definitely not for the mases to try since there's alot of...well let's just say well meaning but inexperienced people.

Over analyzing? Or just gun shy? When you make a noise profile all you are doing is taking a known noise sample and removing it. IF the noise exists it's removed. If it doesn't exist nothing is done.

When running a nosie filter in this manner you can watch the wav form change when the noise is filtered out. Run the noise filter again and no change. Try it :cool:

In your example, it wouldn't matter if you ran all 3 profiles over each section. It's just more work. I've found that when i use a noise profile say from the silence at beginning of the track, not much is left for the noise profile at teh end of a track. But use the noise profile at teh beginning of the lp on the last track and then run the noise profile at teh end of the lp and you'll see more noise is filtered. That's from the physics of playing an lp. Too deep for me to understand fully but I don't need to lol..

Now I must emphize that when taking a silent sample for a noise profile it's very important that no music is present. I get to the end of a track, crank up the volume (my puter's hooked to stereo) and listen to find the place where's there's no music. Even a string slightly vibrating can affect teh music since it's part of the profile. If the beginning of the next track fades in then I write the time down for the end of a track and find where the sound is beginning. You only need a small sample. I try to get a 2-3 second sample. But sometimes yuo can't get that.

Another thing. Make sure any clicks/pops are removed in teh area you're taking your sample from.

If useful, I can write a tutorial complete with screenshots. I don't have the web space for images tho.

And if anyone doesn't have a problem with trading outta print material, I'd be glad to send someone a before and after sample and I'm sure you'll agree the noise reduction technique here is worthy of mastering vinyl boots. PM me if ya want a sample. I'll send something to one operson and they can be the ears of the group and/or pass it around.

One group from the late 70's early 80's I've worked on is the Rockets. A detroit area band with guitarist Jim McCarty formly of mitch ryder and cactus. I've recorded and cleaned up all 5 of their studio albums.

Oh about that forum. I believe many people are muscians and am not sure how they'd take to free distribution of boots so might want to conceal this.

skahorn
2004-12-05, 09:13 AM
Thanks for the site, moemusic.
I'd read about the process of taking samples of "silent" parts of the source for use as a noise profile. I've even used it a few times on some of the material I have. It is a tricksy thing to get right.

I did not know about the possibility of a time/temp variation!
More complexity. Whoo! More reading too.
Should keep me warm and busy this winter on these cold Buffalo nights.

And I thought it was hard learning to build Tube Amps!

Five
2004-12-05, 05:51 PM
Over analyzing? Or just gun shy? When you make a noise profile all you are doing is taking a known noise sample and removing it. IF the noise exists it's removed. If it doesn't exist nothing is done.

When running a nosie filter in this manner you can watch the wav form change when the noise is filtered out. Run the noise filter again and no change. Try it :cool:
The noise sample is looped and mixed back in with the sourced audio with the filter and amplitude applied as specified in the settings. So if there is no noise matching the profile, the algorithm will add out-of-phase noise if there was none there. This is very much like the long-proven strategy used by 3-prong balanced cables. Since the noise is slightly variable and the sample is constant, the process is inaccurate and some degree of audible aritifacts can be introduced. Done properly, these artifacts become inaudible and insignificant. So this is why evaluation by a peer group is so necessary... many people (like my Uncle) would claim that mp3 artifacts at 160kb/s cbr are negligible but we're dealing with a much more discerning crowd here. From experience, I would highly recommend not running CEP/Auditon nr at 100%, but rather down closer to 60% to "cover your tracks", so to speak.

In your example, it wouldn't matter if you ran all 3 profiles over each section. It's just more work. I've found that when i use a noise profile say from the silence at beginning of the track, not much is left for the noise profile at teh end of a track. But use the noise profile at teh beginning of the lp on the last track and then run the noise profile at teh end of the lp and you'll see more noise is filtered. That's from the physics of playing an lp. Too deep for me to understand fully but I don't need to lol..
Oh, I see. You're talking about making multiple passes, I understand now.

Now I must emphize that when taking a silent sample for a noise profile it's very important that no music is present. I get to the end of a track, crank up the volume (my puter's hooked to stereo) and listen to find the place where's there's no music. Even a string slightly vibrating can affect teh music since it's part of the profile. If the beginning of the next track fades in then I write the time down for the end of a track and find where the sound is beginning. You only need a small sample. I try to get a 2-3 second sample. But sometimes yuo can't get that.

Another thing. Make sure any clicks/pops are removed in teh area you're taking your sample from.
Excellent points. Also make sure the beginning and end of the sample is cut on the zero crossings and that when the beginning is pasted to the end (no smoothing!) the waveform retains it's natural shape and no click/pop is introduced (zoom in and/or use spectral view together with your ears to double and triple-check this).

Also, I find it useful to turn off my computer system sounds when doing nr work... I've almost had my head ripped off a couple times when I had my volume turned up to 20 and windows goes "DUNT!!!".

If useful, I can write a tutorial complete with screenshots. I don't have the web space for images tho.
Sounds great, I'd love to see it. Use http://www.imageshack.us/ to host your images, no membership is necessary and it's free.

...I'd be glad to send someone a before and after sample and I'm sure you'll agree the noise reduction technique here is worthy of mastering vinyl boots. PM me if ya want a sample. I'll send something to one operson and they can be the ears of the group and/or pass it around.
I would absolutely love to hear your work some way or another. Preferably not out of print material since this is not allowed at TTD and I would want the samples available to everyone who's interested. This way, when they read your tutorial, they can hear samples of the results right away. I'll find someplace to host the samples for you.

Oh about that forum. I believe many people are muscians and am not sure how they'd take to free distribution of boots so might want to conceal this.
Thanks, great tip.

moemusic
2004-12-06, 03:37 AM
I did not know about the possibility of a time/temp variation!
More complexity.

Well, to tell you the truth ska, I don't know if time temp plays a role. I have a mechanical engineering background and temp affects everything. Heat is the killer of all :eek:

So I always look for ways to isolate the temp variable. My sound card doesn't seem to have any difference due to temperature. But I always check since it doesn't take too long to make the silent wavs.

Also, I find it useful to turn off my computer system sounds when doing nr work... I've almost had my head ripped off a couple times when I had my volume turned up to 20 and windows goes "DUNT!!!".

LOL I'm not the only one eh?

I would absolutely love to hear your work some way or another. Preferably not out of print material since this is not allowed at TTD and I would want the samples available to everyone who's interested. This way, when they read your tutorial, they can hear samples of the results right away. I'll find someplace to host the samples for you.

Well, The only work i've done is on albums I have that never made it to cd. :eek: I've dated myself lol.

I would highly recommend not running CEP/Auditon nr at 100%, but rather down closer to 60% to "cover your tracks", so to speak.


Thanks for the reminder. I usually run the NR at 70%. There's some other settings like fft, precsion factor and such. Can't recall what I use off hand. I'll have to pull my recipie out since i haven't done any recording since my last format.

Thanks for the link for the image shack. I'll get to work on a tutorial. Maybe I can have it done in 7-10 days. Don't hold that to me tho hehe

Now, are there any John Cougar Mellencamp Fans? If so, I recorded his 11-11-04 A&E live by request show onto my computer. I edited the show to remove all the commercials, talking and such so that it sounds like a continous show. If anyone's intersted in seeding the show, pm me and maybe we can work out a small trade or bnp.

Five
2004-12-06, 04:00 AM
Well, The only work i've done is on albums I have that never made it to cd. :eek: I've dated myself lol.
no shame in that, I'm from the vinyl era! When you do the tutorial, it would be cool if you chose something where people could pull up the "before" sample and follow your steps to make it exactly like the after sample. I'm sure you can dig something up!

Thanks for the reminder. I usually run the NR at 70%. There's some other settings like fft, precsion factor and such. Can't recall what I use off hand. I'll have to pull my recipie out since i haven't done any recording since my last format.
Yeah, all those are worth playing around with... the funniest thing I found is that I got better results with lower fft numbers. This seems to defy logic but my ears don't lie! I seem to recall finding a scientific explanation for this recently but have since forgot it lol.

Thanks for the link for the image shack. I'll get to work on a tutorial. Maybe I can have it done in 7-10 days. Don't hold that to me tho hehe
it's a busy time of the year for all of us, whenever you can get to it is fine by me.

Now, are there any John Cougar Mellencamp Fans? If so, I recorded his 11-11-04 A&E live by request show onto my computer. I edited the show to remove all the commercials, talking and such so that it sounds like a continous show. If anyone's intersted in seeding the show, pm me and maybe we can work out a small trade or bnp.
I used to listen to John a lot back the early 80's... I would love to get a couple shows from the Uh-huh and Scarecrow tours but I never see that stuff around! Please lemmie know if you've got this.

moemusic
2004-12-06, 04:57 PM
no shame in that, I'm from the vinyl era! When you do the tutorial, it would be cool if you chose something where people could pull up the "before" sample and follow your steps to make it exactly like the after sample. I'm sure you can dig something up!
Dunno if I can do that since I don't have the space. I guess they can try it on their stuff and listen for themselves. :tunes:


Yeah, all those are worth playing around with... the funniest thing I found is that I got better results with lower fft numbers. This seems to defy logic but my ears don't lie! I seem to recall finding a scientific explanation for this recently but have since forgot it lol.

I've played with those settings so much that if forgot how the sound was affected with changes. That's why when I found settings I liked I made a txt file so i have the settings somewhere if i need them hehehe.

I used to listen to John a lot back the early 80's... I would love to get a couple shows from the Uh-huh and Scarecrow tours but I never see that stuff around! Please lemmie know if you've got this.

Did you see that A&E live show? It was a great show. I had sent an email to about a dozen people I had recently traded with about a week before the show. Only 2 responded and one said not interested. After teh show aired, I heard from 6 more people wanting it and one was the guy who said not interested lol.

I do have some jcm show I got in audio format. One is from 84 and is mostly an accoustic set on the famed wmms coffee break show in cleveland. But the other shows are great with lots of the oldies all soundboard. Check your pm's as I'll send you a link to my list if you're interested.

Five
2004-12-06, 05:17 PM
Did you see that A&E live show? It was a great show. I had sent an email to about a dozen people I had recently traded with about a week before the show. Only 2 responded and one said not interested. After teh show aired, I heard from 6 more people wanting it and one was the guy who said not interested lol.

I do have some jcm show I got in audio format. One is from 84 and is mostly an accoustic set on the famed wmms coffee break show in cleveland. But the other shows are great with lots of the oldies all soundboard. Check your pm's as I'll send you a link to my list if you're interested.
thanks you've got one at the agora '84 that looks great, we'll have to set something up in the new year. I didn't catch the A&E show, maybe if I start listening to some JCM shows I'll get the fever again... it's been 20ish years since I was a heavy listener. I think I really got "turned off" around the time when that video for "Pop Singer" was on TV. I really loved the American Fool, Uh-huh, Scarecrow-era stuff back in the day.