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View Full Version : TTD Staff: Why don't you follow your own rules?


FotherMucker99
2010-08-09, 03:28 PM
One of my master DVDs was uploaded on here a few weeks ago _AGAINST MY WILL_. It clearly states in the DVD menu that I do not wish my DVD to be torrented at all. _NO-ONE ASKED ME FOR PERMISSION TO UPLOAD SAID DVD ON TTD_

Big deal, move around...

Now comes the juicy part though:
Since I filmed, transferred, edited and authored the show I know exactly that there is official songs (actually there's 3 different full length songs) of the Artist in the DVD menu.

I filed a report on July 19th, but the DVD still stays online and to this day still is online on TTD.
Two days later I was told that the issue is being discussed but the preliminary read is that it is going to stay.

My question is: Why is there a rule which doesn't allow official releases to be shared on TTD when you clearly violate said rule TTD staff?

Someone please explain this fauxpas to me.

I hope we can solve this problem in a decent way, because I sure tried to be as polite as possible and offer my constructive criticism.

And remember folks: The tapers and filmers who bust their asses everytime they want to record a show keep places like TTD alive. Without us there wouldn't be such a place.

Thanks for your attention.

uninvited94
2010-08-09, 03:58 PM
Now comes the juicy part though:
Since I filmed, transferred, edited and authored the show I know exactly that there is official songs (actually there's 3 different full length songs) of the Artist in the DVD menu.

That´s usually no big deal over here, only on Dime as far as I know. Even on Zomb you´ll find DVDs with official songs in the menu, I particulary think of TOOL.

Thulani
2010-08-09, 03:59 PM
So you violated the copyright law by putting the official released material into the menu, but you want people to respect whatever you wrote on those menus? Oh boy.

dcbullet
2010-08-09, 04:02 PM
There are two issues here:

1. We don't care if a taper doesn't want their stuff torrented. If they don't want it traded, don't trade it out. I'm not going to police and try to figure out who the real taper is, etc. I'm sure you can see the practical impossibility for me know who is who on the internet.

so, WE DON'T CARE IF WE DON'T HAVE YOUR PERMISSION. DON'T GIVE YOUR SHIT TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T TRUSTWORTHY IF YOU DON'T WANT IT TORRENTED. I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE FROM ADAM.

If a SEEDER wants their torrent pulled, that's fine. We know who seeded it.

2. If officially released material is a small portion of an overall project and it is not the express purpose of the torrent to spread officially released material, that is generally allowed. Those are case by case decisions. I'm not sure what the video mod's analysis of this situation was, but evidently they are OK with it. Or forgot about it. One or the other.

daddyray
2010-08-09, 04:12 PM
FM99 sounds like a guy who does not even eat ribs, let alone enjoy a few Stolis.....Is he looking for quality time with Shmoe? Perhaps that is due

saltman
2010-08-09, 04:20 PM
There are two issues here:

1. We don't care if a taper doesn't want their stuff torrented. If they don't want it traded, don't trade it out. I'm not going to police and try to figure out who the real taper is, etc. I'm sure you can see the practical impossibility for me know who is who on the internet.

so, WE DON'T CARE IF WE DON'T HAVE YOUR PERMISSION. DON'T GIVE YOUR SHIT TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T TRUSTWORTHY IF YOU DON'T WANT IT TORRENTED. I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE FROM ADAM.

If a SEEDER wants their torrent pulled, that's fine. We know who seeded it.

2. If officially released material is a small portion of an overall project and it is not the express purpose of the torrent to spread officially released material, that is generally allowed. Those are case by case decisions. I'm not sure what the video mod's analysis of this situation was, but evidently they are OK with it. Or forgot about it. One or the other.It has not been forgotten. I believe you summed it up very well.

Trust me. I know it sucks when something you don't want shared get's posted in public. It has happened to me many times. I have learned through these encounters who is trustworthy, who is not, and that in the end it doesn't matter. Our objectives of this site are to share as much music as possible.

FotherMucker99
2010-08-09, 04:22 PM
So you violated the copyright law by putting the official released material into the menu, but you want people to respect whatever you wrote on those menus? Oh boy.

the dvd was uncirculated, before it was uploaded here.

dcbullet
2010-08-09, 04:23 PM
the dvd was uncirculated, before it was uploaded here.

Well actually, no, it was not uncirculated. It was not widely or openly circulated.

FotherMucker99
2010-08-09, 04:24 PM
Well actually, no, it was not uncirculated. It was not widely circulated.

trust me, it was really uncirculated before it got on here.

dcbullet
2010-08-09, 04:26 PM
trust me, it was really uncirculated before it got on here.


So how was it torrented if you had the only copy? Magic?

FotherMucker99
2010-08-09, 04:28 PM
2. If officially released material is a small portion of an overall project and it is not the express purpose of the torrent to spread officially released material, that is generally allowed. Those are case by case decisions. I'm not sure what the video mod's analysis of this situation was, but evidently they are OK with it. Or forgot about it. One or the other.

Go ahead and please include this in the rules then, because the current version doesn't imply what you just wrote.

dcbullet
2010-08-09, 04:33 PM
No, we are not going to make the rules here like the Halakha.

FotherMucker99
2010-08-09, 04:40 PM
Alright then, I guess you have every right to do so.

Homebrew101
2010-08-09, 05:32 PM
what dvd is it?

:popcorn:

showtaper
2010-08-09, 05:41 PM
trust me, it was really uncirculated before it got on here.

So how did the uploader get a copy? I really want to know cause there's a
couple of shows I want to get my hands on that aren't circulating.......:D

daddyray
2010-08-09, 06:17 PM
perhaps this video was made available through more conjuring...this place is awesome

freezer
2010-08-09, 06:32 PM
trust me, it was really uncirculated before it got on here.


So how was it torrented if you had the only copy? Magic?

Oh it definitely couldn't have been magic.

Flotsam and Jetsam absolutely flipped out last time somebody referred to magic as being ANY part of the lineage.....

and those two guys KNOW when they're being bullshitted, ain't that right, Billy Bob Bullet?


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Quackers
2010-08-09, 06:59 PM
One of my master DVDs was uploaded on here a few weeks ago _AGAINST MY WILL_. It clearly states in the DVD menu that I do not wish my DVD to be torrented at all.

:laugh:

what dvd is it?

:popcorn:

Good question. After reading this and even it it's something I don't give a fuck about, NOW I'd like to have it :thanks:

pmonk
2010-08-09, 07:10 PM
So how was it torrented if you had the only copy? Magic?

Oh it definitely couldn't have been magic.

Flotsam and Jetsam absolutely flipped out last time somebody referred to magic as being ANY part of the lineage.....

and those two guys KNOW when they're being bullshitted, ain't that right, Billy Bob Bullet?


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I thought magic and plastic microphones are a non-no at TTD?

pmonk
2010-08-09, 07:49 PM
I wonder if any of the dumb ass mods in the place understand why this taper/trader wants the torrent taken down?

Wolf
2010-08-09, 08:38 PM
What makes a bootleg a Master? Does Master apply only to shows filmed using tapes? Or it can apply to shows filmed on a hard drive or a memory card?


Audio:

AUD > Recording Device (Digital - Hard Drive) > USB > WAV > Audio Editing Software > FLAC

Would that be considered a 1st Gen? Since the MASTER was transfered to PC and then edited (cleaned up) in an audio editing program and then converted to FLAC. Is MASTER meaning that the original file is intact and only the taper has the master version. If he makes a copy of the master, it is a master clone? Am I right?

Video:

AUD > Camera > SD Card > SD Card Reader > RAW Files > Video Editing Program > DVD Authoring Program > DVD

^^ This would be a 1st Gen too right since it was trasnferred from SD card to PC and then changed its RAW format to DVD format?

So can Digital Camera files, files recorded in WMV/MP3 format also be considered MASTERs? Whats the difference between Master/1st Gen/Master Clone? And my examples listed above Master or 1st Gen?

thanks, just want some info before I put up some shows

sabkisscrue
2010-08-09, 08:53 PM
I dont think the problem is just with the Mods, its the general
consensus. There isnt too many
downloaders here that used to be traders who dealt with filmers,
its a whole new crop of people who are used to getting things
at a click, so why should they respect the people
who bust their ass and put all the hard work into filming these
shows that are torrented here? Why should they be expected
to understand that there is a lot of hard work put into
filming shows and making them available? They arent Geniuses,
ill tell ya that. All they care about is how soon they
can get it, anything else is something that doesnt even
register to them.

But I happen to think and maybe its completely crazy (
you tell me),
that a Mod should be above that.
If there is any reason that a torrent should be taken
down, a Mod should be willing to do it or look into it
especially if the person
responsible for the dvd wants it taken down.
For any Mod to have the passive aggressive attitude
"we dont care",
thats not Mod behavior. A mod should be above it all,
and fair and above all, respectful. That is a Mod.
Not someone who doesnt care. Dont call yourself a Mod
if your attitude is I dont care. If thats your attitude, step
down. You wanna be a Mod, than handle it and do something.
Above all, you must be respectful and never give off the
impression you arent willing to do something just because
you dont feel like it. Understand that there wouldnt be a dvd
to upload if this person didnt put the work into it, so show
some respect to him and take it down.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-09, 08:55 PM
A master is where it came from. It could be the camera master. The tape you recorded off tv with or it could be what is left, in other words the master was either destroyed or lost or no longer exists. So what you have left could be the master as well.

rspencer
2010-08-09, 09:30 PM
A master is the original source. In the digital age, it's no longer physical media, but the originally circulated files. Generation usually just comes into play with CDR generations. Physically, the DAT/cassette/reel the show was recorded onto is the master.

And that's that. If the lowest circulating copy is 5th generation, it is not a master. Not even if all earlier gens no longer exist. It's a 5th gen copy of a show in which lower gens don't exist, nothing more.


In your examples, you recorded it, transferred it, edit/author, and then circulate that copy...it's the master.

rspencer
2010-08-09, 09:54 PM
I wonder if any of the dumb ass mods in the place understand why this taper/trader wants the torrent taken down?

Other than that his demand in the menu was ignored, I haven't seen a reason stated. And barring unusual circumstances, it wouldn't make any difference.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=removal#faq_taper_removal

I'm the taper/author/filmer and I want that show removed!
Our policy here is similar to that at a major torrent site. The rights to the audio/video belong to the performer. Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. If someone uploads a show that you taped/filmed/authored/remastered, you may ask the uploader to remove it ONCE (any other requests may be deleted at the discretion of the Mods), but it is up to them whether they want to ask us to remove it. However, that doesn't mean that show is permanently banned from here. Someone else may end up uploading it and not feel like asking for it to be removed.

The official music over the menus doesn't get an automatic ban here like at some other sites. The NYCBC trick doesn't work here.

Bottom line is that if you don't want it circulating, don't let it out. Once it's traded out, it will end up as a torrent somewhere. The uploader had a copy to upload, so it was circulating already, even if not torrented yet.

And if there was no intention to circulate it, there would have been no reason to place any request to keep it off the internet in the menu.

I understand the issue. I have shows you'll never see on the internet, because they'll not be circulated, period. Those go only to a couple trusted other tapers & a couple close friends. If you trade it, it's gonna make the rounds.

dcbullet
2010-08-09, 10:06 PM
For any Mod to have the passive aggressive attitude
"we dont care",
thats not Mod behavior. A mod should be above it all,
and fair and above all, respectful. That is a Mod.
Not someone who doesnt care. Dont call yourself a Mod
if your attitude is I dont care. If thats your attitude, step
down. You wanna be a Mod, than handle it and do something.
Above all, you must be respectful and never give off the
impression you arent willing to do something just because
you dont feel like it. Understand that there wouldnt be a dvd
to upload if this person didnt put the work into it, so show
some respect to him and take it down.

My attitude is not passive aggressive. I actively believe that our policy is correct. This has nothing to do with me "not feeling like it." FM99 came in here with a piss poor attitude and I let him know our reasons.

You act like I don't understand the issue. My recordings get put up on blog sites as mp3's. I don't like that. I get it.

rspencer
2010-08-09, 10:17 PM
I sent a couple shows as CDR to a Yahoo group for a certain artist. They were available as torrents, but nobody there could seem to grasp the BT thing. So no biggie, I gave them a couple copies to make copies from & get it to all the members. All I asked was that they not start passing it around as mp3.

2 weeks later, one of the members posts a rapidshare link to the mp3s he had made. I politely pointed out that I had publicly asked that they not do that. I didn't ask that they be taken down, didn't ask that they not d/l them, etc. Done is done.

But I did suggest that they start learning bittorrrent, because I wasn't sending the other show that I'd recorded.

No point racing to close the door once the horse is out. Maybe FM99 traded it to someone, who traded again, etc....it'll get out. Would it be nice if everyone complied with his request? Of course. But you can't get common courtesy with a large percentage of the people you see face-to-face each day, so I wouldn't expect it with people on the internet.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-09, 10:58 PM
If the master doesnt exist as it was thrown out by accident or lost, yes you could consider a 1st gen or a 2nd gen a master because its physically there. It doesnt have to technically be a master in order for it to be considered a master or called a master, but you have to be specific about that.
Lineage would still say 1st or 2nd, etc.

freezer
2010-08-09, 10:58 PM
........
1. We don't care if a taper doesn't want their stuff torrented. If they don't want it traded, don't trade it out. I'm not going to police and try to figure out who the real taper is, etc. I'm sure you can see the practical impossibility for me know who is who on the internet.

so, WE DON'T CARE IF WE DON'T HAVE YOUR PERMISSION. DON'T GIVE YOUR SHIT TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T TRUSTWORTHY IF YOU DON'T WANT IT TORRENTED. I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE FROM ADAM.

....................

It didn't take the deductive reasoning of a Sherlock Holmes to figure this out, Dick Tracy........


http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1445460&postcount=1



ESPECIALLY WHEN THE TAPER'S NAME IS LISTED IN THE LINEAGE, Billy Bob Bullet-Boy...........

VOLBEAT

Date: 2008.10.16
Venue: Posthof
City: Linz
Country: Austria


Video Lineage: Generation: Panasonic NV-GS 3>MINI-DV Master>DVDR when burned
Audio Lineage: AUD>IRIVER>MD(1)>WAV>FLAC>Stereo>256 kb/s Sony ECM-719 Microphone -> Sony MZ-R900
Taper: FotherMucker99
Video Bitrate: 720X480
DVD Author: FotherMucker99 (incomplete)
DVD Length: 86 min
Menu/Chapters: Yes/Yes
Artwork: No





However, I do agree with Billy Bob Bullet-Boy's assessment about untruthstworthy -- DON'T GIVE YOUR SHIT TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T TRUSTWORTHY

But, say, when did this site become so untrutsworthy? Maybe it was when Flotsam and Jetsam thought they were being "bullshitted" but actually weren't? Could that have been the official start of the decline in trust here?

Alex231
2010-08-09, 11:05 PM
This 'ribs' thing is funny to maybe one person


Holy fucking shit.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-09, 11:20 PM
My attitude is not passive aggressive. I actively believe that our policy is correct. This has nothing to do with me "not feeling like it." FM99 came in here with a piss poor attitude and I let him know our reasons.

You act like I don't understand the issue. My recordings get put up on blog sites as mp3's. I don't like that. I get it.

I disagree about the "piss poor attitude", one could make an argument that anybody sounds pissed off when they post on a message board. This is obviously something that would piss off any taper or filmer though, if he wishes to have his recording taken down his wishes should supercede that of the person who uploaded it or any policy. Now about that policy, its obviously not written by someone who has a clue what hes talking about, no offense.
What im going by is how its been done for years before torrenting even came about.
I cant say this enough, the reason why a filmer/tapers wishes should be respected is because these are the people who provide the material for this site, any Mod should want to honor a filmers/tapers wishes and hope that he uploads his material at this site. This type of policy if anything will alienate filmers/tapers from uploading to this site. Now that might not be something you take serious but you have to consider that one taper/filmer has at least 10 things he could upload to this site, now you might not want anything he could potentially upload but there is a lot of people who do.

U2Lynne
2010-08-09, 11:34 PM
I don't know if any of you remember STG. We tried the policy of pulling shows recorded by a taper if the taper requested it. What happened as a result of that policy was a mess. Shows uploaded, then asked to be removed, uploaded again under a new name, then removed, etc. Then there was the super big 30GB (I think it was) torrent that was uploaded and the taper waited deliberately until people got to 80% and then pulled it. He did that several times just to get back at people and to make a point with STG that the policy was actually a bad policy. (This was almost six years ago, so it's all kinda fuzzy with me.) It's hard to come up with a policy that is fair and that doesn't get misused.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-09, 11:35 PM
I sent a couple shows as CDR to a Yahoo group for a certain artist. They were available as torrents, but nobody there could seem to grasp the BT thing. So no biggie, I gave them a couple copies to make copies from & get it to all the members. All I asked was that they not start passing it around as mp3.

2 weeks later, one of the members posts a rapidshare link to the mp3s he had made. I politely pointed out that I had publicly asked that they not do that. I didn't ask that they be taken down, didn't ask that they not d/l them, etc. Done is done.

But I did suggest that they start learning bittorrrent, because I wasn't sending the other show that I'd recorded.

No point racing to close the door once the horse is out. Maybe FM99 traded it to someone, who traded again, etc....it'll get out. Would it be nice if everyone complied with his request? Of course. But you can't get common courtesy with a large percentage of the people you see face-to-face each day, so I wouldn't expect it with people on the internet.

You said that you dont think I dont understand the issue.
I dont think you do.
Downloading a cdr isnt comaprable to someone busting their ass to video tape a show.

trustthex
2010-08-10, 12:17 AM
This 'ribs' thing is funny to maybe one person


Holy fucking shit.

I like ribs. :drool


Also, as a taper, I agree w/ the stated policy. Once it's out there, it's out there. Giving it to one person might as well be considered putting it in circulation. The idea of hoarding at this day and age is tired, no single piece of media is forever... :wave:

rspencer
2010-08-10, 12:20 AM
I didn't download it, I recorded it. Then burned them freebies, because they couldn't/wouldn't learn how to d/l the torrents I'd already posted..

The point is once you release it, it's out of your hands. If FM99 wants to keep future releases off the 'net, the only surefire way is to not circulate them. There is really no other 100% reliable option. Once traded, it can get traded on & on and eventually end up online.

As the taper, we have no rights to limit uploads. That's just how it is. Sit on it or accept that it's gonna spread.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 12:31 AM
It would be the best circulating, or best existing, copy. But it still is not a master. 1st or 2nd gen is just that.

If all first editions of Dickens' books disappeared, it's not going to make paperback editions worth any more. If a Van Gogh painting is destroyed, prints are still prints.

There is one master, and then there are copies.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 12:49 AM
I didn't download it, I recorded it. Then burned them freebies, because they couldn't/wouldn't learn how to d/l the torrents I'd already posted..

The point is once you release it, it's out of your hands. If FM99 wants to keep future releases off the 'net, the only surefire way is to not circulate them. There is really no other 100% reliable option. Once traded, it can get traded on & on and eventually end up online.

As the taper, we have no rights to limit uploads. That's just how it is. Sit on it or accept that it's gonna spread.

That type of attitude is unjustified if you really do tape shows.
If you are a taper, you'd be in agreement with me that this policy is
not good. The attitude that once its out there, its no longer yours is absurd, if not insane. It is HIS recording, regardless of what band it is, who uploaded it, or who he gave it to. Actually its irrelevant.
You cannot disrespect a filmers and tapers wishes.
They must supercede any policy or even your own opinion (which I think I commented about already).
Im not saying anything new, thats just how it is.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 12:55 AM
Again, you could consider something your master whether it technically is a master or isnt.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 01:02 AM
Other than the extreme failure that Lynne mentioned, I've yet to see any site that gave tapers the right to have removed uploads of their recordings. Some have stricter policies than we do.

The "once it's out there.." isn't an attitude, it's a fact. If you don't want it to circulate, don't circulate it. Once it's circulated, it is no longer "his." He may have taped it, but he released it into what is more-or-less a grey area public domain, no matter what may be requested/demanded in a menu or text file. We have no IP rights; those are the band's.

To think it can be traded & never go online is naive. "Hoard" or it or just let it go.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 01:12 AM
You could also consider a bologna sandwich to be an airplane, but you would be wrong. :D

The master is the only copy that should be referred to as such, IMO. Collectors of some bands like to claim whatever copy they've unearthed is a master, for whatever reason (bragging rights, better $ from boot companies, etc.). Such mislabeling just causes problems. Enough of that kinda stuff & who knows what is what (there are enough problems verifying generations as-is).

mooncusser
2010-08-10, 01:38 AM
it's always nice manners to ask a taper if he minds a show being spread around.
who knows, they might plan on uploading somewhere themselves to help their ratio.
but there's no rule that you have to ask - or abide by the answer, for that matter.

once it's out there, it's out there.
get over it, you don't own the rights.

if it's popular it will wind up in MP3 format.
if it's really popular it will wind up on eBay.
and it may even get posted again as a "remaster"

:popcorn:

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 01:50 AM
Once again. You can refer to any tape you want as your master. But when trading/torrenting you must be accurate about the lineage, most people arent.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 02:05 AM
Other than the extreme failure that Lynne mentioned, I've yet to see any site that gave tapers the right to have removed uploads of their recordings. Some have stricter policies than we do.

The "once it's out there.." isn't an attitude, it's a fact. If you don't want it to circulate, don't circulate it. Once it's circulated, it is no longer "his." He may have taped it, but he released it into what is more-or-less a grey area public domain, no matter what may be requested/demanded in a menu or text file. We have no IP rights; those are the band's.

To think it can be traded & never go online is naive. "Hoard" or it or just let it go.

You are telling me you taped a show and this is your attitude? Its irrelevant what a taper does with his recording, no matter what he does with it, its still HIS recording. He has a right to say whether or not he wants his recording traded or torrented. If you were to get HIS recording from someone or by torrent, does that mean you have the right to say whether the show could be traded or torrented? No. The filmer is the one who makes the rules/policy.

commander_hg
2010-08-10, 02:30 AM
But I happen to think and maybe its completely crazy (
you tell me), that a Mod should be above that.
If there is any reason that a torrent should be taken
down, a Mod should be willing to do it or look into it
especially if the person responsible for the dvd wants it taken down.
For any Mod to have the passive aggressive attitude
"we dont care", thats not Mod behavior. A mod should be above it all,
and fair and above all, respectful. That is a Mod.
Not someone who doesnt care. Dont call yourself a Mod
if your attitude is I dont care. If thats your attitude, step
down. You wanna be a Mod, than handle it and do something.
Above all, you must be respectful and never give off the
impression you arent willing to do something just because
you dont feel like it. Understand that there wouldnt be a dvd
to upload if this person didnt put the work into it, so show
some respect to him and take it down.

Applause to that! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I think you can tell an arsehole from it's smell. Cheers!

Thulani
2010-08-10, 02:30 AM
The filmer is the one who makes the rules/policy.
Yeah, like requesting money for the recording?

pmonk
2010-08-10, 09:01 AM
I am just pointing that the taper may not want the DVD torrented because the trade value is going down the toilet.

dcbullet
2010-08-10, 10:29 AM
If you are a taper, you'd be in agreement with me that this policy is
not good.

This statement has already been proven false 3 times in this thread.

Look, I agree that if someone uploads a show after promising not to, that's a dick move. However, that's those two traders' problem, that's not TTD's problem.

Homebrew101
2010-08-10, 10:30 AM
:popcorn:

kingjman
2010-08-10, 10:37 AM
It is HIS recording, regardless of what band it is, who uploaded it, or who he gave it to. Actually its irrelevant.
You cannot disrespect a filmers and tapers wishes.
They must supercede any policy or even your own opinion

Even though he worked on it, It's really not his work...he's just capturing the artists work....does he own it, or possess it?

If the band or their management told TTD to remove then they would....the band owns the rights to the music.

If you get caught taping in a venue, and they want the media erased "No!...this is my recording, your opinion doesn't count"..isn't gonna work.

If the band gets hold of your recording, they can sell it(without your permission) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_the_Boots_II)

Remember when Metallica got so mad at everybody for "I Disappear"....when instead they should have got mad at the "leak"...it's not TTDs fault that your vid got out.
It's like a secret, once you tell someone, it's out of your control.
You told a friend, they told the internet.

I do understand FM99s confusion about official stuff in his vid...but hey, being more lax is ok.

Hey FM99, look on the up side....at least Carina maintained credit in the notes, and your vid is being appreciated by more fans.

daddyray
2010-08-10, 10:59 AM
the right to say DO NOT TRADE? sure you have the privilege to say that here and elsewhere but alas you will be ignored.....enjoy your day!

paddington
2010-08-10, 11:06 AM
This is a great thread. :thumbsup


I'm going to grab a copy of this DVD and torrent in 3 other places today. So many people seem to want it now, since no one is supposed to have it.

No one wants to WATCH it, but everyone wants a copy! :lmao:

paddington
2010-08-10, 11:06 AM
Well actually, no, it was not uncirculated. It was not widely circulated.

trust me, it was really uncirculated before it got on here.


:lmao: :thumbsup :wave:

This is classic.

trustthex
2010-08-10, 12:03 PM
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (2 members and 1 guests)
trustthex, freezer

:wave:

also, FM99 - if it truly is uncirculated, then you must be uploading under an alias.

Alex213
2010-08-10, 12:34 PM
I contacted Volbeat to let them know that Fothermokker99 is taping and distributing their shows :wave:

schmoe75
2010-08-10, 01:01 PM
This statement has already been proven false 3 times in this thread.
It's pointless to argue with him. It doesn't matter what facts or logical reasoning is put forth, you'll never convince him that anything other than his warped opinion is wrong.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80109
Paticularly post 105

games
2010-08-10, 01:21 PM
One of my master DVDs was uploaded on here a few weeks ago _AGAINST MY WILL_. It clearly states in the DVD menu that I do not wish my DVD to be torrented at all. _NO-ONE ASKED ME FOR PERMISSION TO UPLOAD SAID DVD ON TTD_

Big deal, move around...

Now comes the juicy part though:
Since I filmed, transferred, edited and authored the show I know exactly that there is official songs (actually there's 3 different full length songs) of the Artist in the DVD menu.

I filed a report on July 19th, but the DVD still stays online and to this day still is online on TTD.
Two days later I was told that the issue is being discussed but the preliminary read is that it is going to stay.

My question is: Why is there a rule which doesn't allow official releases to be shared on TTD when you clearly violate said rule TTD staff?

Someone please explain this fauxpas to me.

I hope we can solve this problem in a decent way, because I sure tried to be as polite as possible and offer my constructive criticism.

And remember folks: The tapers and filmers who bust their asses everytime they want to record a show keep places like TTD alive. Without us there wouldn't be such a place.

Thanks for your attention.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3217/cryingbaby.jpg

paddington
2010-08-10, 01:35 PM
I contacted Volbeat to let them know that Fothermokker99 is taping and distributing their shows :wave:


he specifically asked, in the deleted scenes menu, that no one do that :nono:

freezer
2010-08-10, 03:32 PM
I contacted Volbeat to let them know that Fothermokker99 is taping and distributing their shows :wave:

Good deal, for it's a certainty YOU ain't taping a motherfucking note of music whatsoever.

:wave:

commander_hg
2010-08-10, 04:16 PM
Penis is growing as we speak?

paddington
2010-08-10, 04:36 PM
nsfw

Alex213
2010-08-10, 04:48 PM
Good deal, for it's a certainty YOU ain't taping a motherfucking note of music whatsoever.

:wave:

you are correct!! GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!


(I actually have taped shows but never shared them anywhere)


you know Arthur, with all of the ROIO's I've collected I can honestly state that I have not kept a single freezer tape because the SQ just doesn't cut it, always wondered if that's the result of multi-gens before they are torrented or the master recording :lmao:

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 05:30 PM
Yeah, like requesting money for the recording?

Dont be naive.
You wouldnt have a lot of what you have in your collection if money wasnt exchanged to begin with.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 05:36 PM
This statement has already been proven false 3 times in this thread.

Look, I agree that if someone uploads a show after promising not to, that's a dick move. However, that's those two traders' problem, that's not TTD's problem.

A trader screwing over another trader is one thing but a terrible policy is what we are talking about here and a general consensus among traders where filmers/tapers wishes are disrespected and thats a huge problem.
You should have the policy where a filmer can request a show of his taken down, regardless if that policy has been misused or abused before. You should on the side of the filmer and a filmer's wishes should supercede any Mod or any policy. Thats how it should be, thats how its always been because these are the ones who provide the material and they deserve the respect. I dont know how you could see it any differently.

freezer
2010-08-10, 06:14 PM
Alex's manifesto: GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!GIMME!! GIMME!! GIMME!!


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3217/cryingbaby.jpg
Call me Alex, but softly......




you know me, I hates anyone that laughs at me for what I can't slide down my greedy gullet while spreading my hatred.........I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam, call me Alex, the queen of trolls, toot toot. :D

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

FTFY, ya goofy bastard.......

schmoe75
2010-08-10, 06:38 PM
You should have the policy where a filmer can request a show of his taken down, regardless if that policy has been misused or abused before. You should on the side of the filmer and a filmer's wishes should supercede any Mod or any policy. Thats how it should be, thats how its always been because these are the ones who provide the material and they deserve the respect. I dont know how you could see it any differently.
1, The majority of Tapers understand what has already been pointed out and YOU are ignoring...once its given to anyone else, it's out of their hands, which is why it's pointless to put bs notes like 'don't torrent this on other sites or trade as is only, no mp3's'.
2, The only opinion that matters around here is Lynne's, so until she decides to change it, YOU can whine about it all YOU want...it ain't changing.
3, If you don't like the policy, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own site and enacting whatever rules you want.
Till then....
http://i1.auzs.com/i1/2008-09/license-plate-stfu.jpg

Quackers
2010-08-10, 06:51 PM
This 'ribs' thing is funny to maybe one person


Holy fucking shit.

I like ribs. :drool


but... do you think it's funny?

:hmm:

daddyray
2010-08-10, 06:54 PM
lazy quacker?!?

that is sexy

Quackers
2010-08-10, 06:55 PM
This is a great thread. :thumbsup


I'm going to grab a copy of this DVD and torrent in 3 other places today. So many people seem to want it now, since no one is supposed to have it.

No one wants to WATCH it, but everyone wants a copy! :lmao:

I'd be very happy to dl just the menus. TIA :thumbsup

TheStraightest
2010-08-10, 07:00 PM
Penis is growing as we speak?
:)
you wanna check?

:banana:

:wave:

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 07:11 PM
1, The majority of Tapers understand what has already been pointed out and YOU are ignoring...once its given to anyone else, it's out of their hands, which is why it's pointless to put bs notes like 'don't torrent this on other sites or trade as is only, no mp3's'.
2, The only opinion that matters around here is Lynne's, so until she decides to change it, YOU can whine about it all YOU want...it ain't changing.
3, If you don't like the policy, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own site and enacting whatever rules you want.
Till then....
http://i1.auzs.com/i1/2008-09/license-plate-stfu.jpg

If you dont like what I have to say, dont read it. No one is putting a gun to your head.

But lets attempt to use your logic.

Youve authored some of the tripod guy's masters, is that right?
If not, somebody did.
This policy that you stand behind is the equivalent of saying now that you
or someone else has done that, they are theirs or your masters and they are no longer the filmers masters. Thats absurd.

I guarantee you the tripod guy who filmed those shows, who sent you or someone else his masters (just like multiple filmers have sent me their masters to transfer) is the one calling the shots, is the one saying whether or not you could torrent these shows and where you can torrent them.

If these were your masters that you transferred and authored, you would be calling the shots as well.

That is how it works.
Filmers always call the shots.

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:14 PM
I didn't download it, I recorded it. Then burned them freebies, because they couldn't/wouldn't learn how to d/l the torrents I'd already posted..

The point is once you release it, it's out of your hands. If FM99 wants to keep future releases off the 'net, the only surefire way is to not circulate them. There is really no other 100% reliable option. Once traded, it can get traded on & on and eventually end up online.

As the taper, we have no rights to limit uploads. That's just how it is. Sit on it or accept that it's gonna spread.

That type of attitude is unjustified if you really do tape shows.
If you are a taper, you'd be in agreement with me that this policy is
not good. The attitude that once its out there, its no longer yours is absurd, if not insane. It is HIS recording, regardless of what band it is, who uploaded it, or who he gave it to. Actually its irrelevant.
You cannot disrespect a filmers and tapers wishes.
They must supercede any policy or even your own opinion (which I think I commented about already).
Im not saying anything new, thats just how it is.


It's not how it is and you are dreaming. No one here can legislate how other people behave in real life. That's madness. This thing of pulling shows when the taper asks was tried in the STG days and it was IMPOSSIBLE to enforce. The shit comes back like cancer.

By all means, keep your stuff if you "only tape for yourself"... but if you give out a SINGLE copy, it's going to spread. That's just reality. You have no control, beyond the first copy.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 07:18 PM
It's not how it is and you are dreaming. No one here can legislate how other people behave in real life. That's madness. This thing of pulling shows when the taper asks was tried in the STG days and it was IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.

If its such a difficult policy for you to enforce. Ill enforce that policy, if you change it.

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:20 PM
1, The majority of Tapers understand what has already been pointed out and YOU are ignoring...once its given to anyone else, it's out of their hands, which is why it's pointless to put bs notes like 'don't torrent this on other sites or trade as is only, no mp3's'.
2, The only opinion that matters around here is Lynne's, so until she decides to change it, YOU can whine about it all YOU want...it ain't changing.
3, If you don't like the policy, there's nothing stopping you from starting your own site and enacting whatever rules you want.
Till then....
http://i1.auzs.com/i1/2008-09/license-plate-stfu.jpg

If you dont like what I have to say, dont read it. No one is putting a gun to your head.

But lets attempt to use your logic.

Youve authored some of the tripod guy's masters, is that right?
If not, somebody did.
This policy that you stand behind is the equivalent of saying now that you
or someone else has done that, they are theirs or your masters and they are no longer the filmers masters. Thats absurd.

I guarantee you the tripod guy who filmed those shows, who sent you or someone else his masters (just like multiple filmers have sent me their masters to transfer) is the one calling the shots, is the one saying whether or not you could torrent these shows and where you can torrent them.

If these were your masters that you transferred and authored, you would be calling the shots as well.

That is how it works.
Filmers always call the shots.

Right up until the first copy copy is traded out.

After that, he has no reasonable expectation of control - unless he's insane. Sure, his 1st gen circle will respect his wishes.. but not always. And the second group to get a copy? Forget it! It's out.

i don;t know how you expect anyone at TTD or anywhere else to enforce a ridiculous policy of pulling torrents down because the taper decides he wants to take his ball and run home. Someone else will just post it right back.

This has been tried at STG and was a failure. It's bad policy because it cannot be enforced.

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:20 PM
It's not how it is and you are dreaming. No one here can legislate how other people behave in real life. That's madness. This thing of pulling shows when the taper asks was tried in the STG days and it was IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.

If its such a difficult policy for you to enforce. Ill enforce that policy, if you change it.


Describe how you would enforce the policy, please.

direwolf-pgh
2010-08-10, 07:24 PM
perhaps bribe a mod :popcorn: Five hundred dollars should do it

PM for details - serious inquiries only

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 07:25 PM
Describe how you would enforce the policy, please.

Im a filmer and a friend of many filmer's as well as tapers. If someone contacts the site and says I want this torrent taken down and they have a good reason why and they can provide proof to me that they are the taper, id consider it done but id convince them to upload their own masters on the site. I could also convince fellow filmers/tapers to upload here.

If it ever gets to the point once a torrent is taken down that its reuploaded multiple times, id take it down each time. I dont consider that a problem. Again if someone wants something taken down and they have a good reason why they want it taken down, id do it.

Again, thats where im coming from as a filmer myself.

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:26 PM
I think it is important to make note, here, that we do not disrespect tapers' wishes at TTD.

We cannot control what the general public does. We do not have the time to keep a running list of what shows are not to be torrented because the taper has changed his mind or gave a copy out to someone he shouldn't have trusted.

There are 136,000+ files being swapped right now on the tracker bwetween 10,000+ peers. We cannot keep track of which ones come with stipulations.

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:27 PM
Describe how you would enforce the policy, please.

Im a filmer and a friend of many filmer's as well as tapers. If someone contacts the site and says I want this torrent taken down and they have a good reason why and they can provide proof to me that they are the taper, id consider it done but id convince them to upload their own masters on the site.
.


We will ALWAYS remove an inferrior source if a lower gen is provided - as soon as the replacement goes up. Been done hundreds of times.

freezer
2010-08-10, 07:52 PM
We will ALWAYS remove an inferrior source if a lower gen is provided - as soon as the replacement goes up. Been done hundreds of times.

Unless it's a "silver boot"

then you consider it "source zero"

You tell 'em spanky, don't let no one bullshit you..........

:lol4:

paddington
2010-08-10, 07:55 PM
We will ALWAYS remove an inferrior source if a lower gen is provided - as soon as the replacement goes up. Been done hundreds of times.

Unless it's a "silver boot"

then you consider it "source zero"

You tell 'em spanky, don't let no one bullshit you..........

:lol4:


yep.

dems da rules.


however, the silver and lowgen may coexist, so everyone wins. We will pull neither, though... which is the topic, here.

SundayDriver
2010-08-10, 08:24 PM
Is this situation not analogous to that of the RIAA attempting to pull officially released music off of sites like Demonoid and Mininova? If they're even successful at pulling the material, it's almost always either available already in countless reincarnations at other sites or will be at some point. The point being once it's out there, it's out there.

freezer
2010-08-10, 08:38 PM
yep.

dems da rules.


however, the silver and lowgen may coexist, so everyone wins. We will pull neither, though... which is the topic, here.

You changed the rules again, Flotsam........ :lol4:

paddington
2010-08-10, 09:35 PM
the fact that you have only now begun to grok does not constitute any flim-flam on my part :wave:

paddington
2010-08-10, 09:38 PM
Is this situation not analogous to that of the RIAA attempting to pull officially released music off of sites like Demonoid and Mininova? If they're even successful at pulling the material, it's almost always either available already in countless reincarnations at other sites or will be at some point. The point being once it's out there, it's out there.


with one exception - those artists actually own that work.

In this case, the taper is simply a fan and, while very much appreciated, his recording isn't subject to his whims once he gives it out.

but yes, it is the same result. If lawsuits and bully tactics can't stop it in the RIAA's case, why would anyone think some torrent mods could stop it? Besides, as has been noted, it was tried and proved impossible. And people don't like it. If we ban it, it'll just go up 30 secs later in 5 other places.. then it will show up here again when we aren't looking.


Freedom, man. Hard to control it.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 09:47 PM
For future reference, if you want to trade something "exclusively," to maintain value as an uncirculated show, there is a way to do it. Requesting that it not be traded or torrented doesn't work...obviously.

Set up multiple trades for whatever you want with however many people you want. Do all the trades at the same time. Get your 5, 10, whatever shows for your one show at once. And after that, you can't control it.

Some "inner circles" can limit circulation for quite a while, but most stuff sneaks out eventually, even if it's a number of gens down the line.

paddington
2010-08-10, 09:51 PM
you can also add a well-placed 'mark' to the recording, such as a whistle, to keep track of who leaks it

or so I've heard

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 10:11 PM
with one exception - those artists actually own that work.

In this case, the taper is simply a fan and, while very much appreciated, his recording isn't subject to his whims once he gives it out.

but yes, it is the same result. If lawsuits and bully tactics can't stop it in the RIAA's case, why would anyone think some torrent mods could stop it? Besides, as has been noted, it was tried and proved impossible. And people don't like it. If we ban it, it'll just go up 30 secs later in 5 other places.. then it will show up here again when we aren't looking.


Freedom, man. Hard to control it.

Thats just your way of giving up and copping out of your duties as a Mod.
"If we take it down its gonna go up elsewhere".
Thats not an excuse for doing nothing and pissing off someone who can torrent several of his masters, which you may not care about but im sure theres plenty of people who would like that alot.
Im gonna say this again, its irrelevant who gets a hold of a tapers recording.
The whole notion, that once he gives out its no longer his, is absurd.

I gotta say this, dont bite the hand that feeds you. Tapers are what provide not just TTD but the entire trading and downloading community the material that we have. Be on the side of them. I dont care whether you are a Mod or a downloader, have some respect for those who bust their asses and deserve more respect than they are getting
especially from the people who have posted in this thread.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 10:34 PM
You record a show.

If the band allows it, then they also usually expect free distribution. It's a way to give something extra to their fans.

If they don't allow it, then the "rights" & rules of the label, management, venue & band have likely been "violated." Yet you expect the taper to have some rights to control a recording he let out, in perpetuity?

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 10:48 PM
You record a show.

If the band allows it, then they also usually expect free distribution. It's a way to give something extra to their fans.

If they don't allow it, then the "rights" & rules of the label, management, venue & band have likely been "violated." Yet you expect the taper to have some rights to control a recording he let out, in perpetuity?

Irrelevant. You definitely shouldnt be Moderating a bootleg torrent site or calling yourself a taper, thats for sure.

rspencer
2010-08-10, 11:02 PM
I hold no delusions of grandeur just because I own a recorder & know how to use it.

This discussion is moot anyway. The policy is posted. If it's to be changed, it will be Lynne's decision to change it. Prior to a change such as that, she'll likely discuss it with the mods. And since roughly 0% of the mods (who include a number of tapers) are against the policy, it's not likely to change.

sabkisscrue
2010-08-10, 11:13 PM
I hold no delusions of grandeur just because I own a recorder & know how to use it.

This discussion is moot anyway. The policy is posted. If it's to be changed, it will be Lynne's decision to change it. Prior to a change such as that, she'll likely discuss it with the mods. And since roughly 0% of the mods (who include a number of tapers) are against the policy, it's not likely to change.

It isnt a moot discussion. To see those who should be on the side of the tapers/filmers and who should have the most respect for those who provide the material that is uploaded onto this site, to see them so very anti-bootleg, anti-taper/filmer and copping out of their duties, its fascinating.

But also if Lynne is willing to change the policy, id enforce it myself.

Also as far as "delusions of grandeur" this has to do with ones own recording, not ones ego.

freezer
2010-08-10, 11:37 PM
yada yada yada.

.........

I gotta say this, dont bite the hand that feeds you. Tapers are what provide not just TTD but the entire trading and downloading community the material that we have. Be on the side of them. I dont care whether you are a Mod or a downloader, have some respect for those who bust their asses and deserve more respect than they are getting
especially from the people who have posted in this thread.

My friend, you are pissing in the wind -- should you continue this 'arguement'; does the term "taper-unfriendly" mean anything to you?

Not only are some bands "taper-unfriendly" but many sites like this one can be incredibly "taper unfriendly", thanks to the SOME people chosen to moderate, and their style of moderating.

Biting the hand that feeds you? The hallmark of this hobby since Bram Cohen crawled out of his closet is just that, chomping hard on the hand is more like it.

I understand both sides of the debate, and I can see that both sides wouldn't know the term "courtesy" if it was tattooed on their frigging foreheads.


Could the torrent have been taken down?

Sure, and done quietly, with a pm to the seeder about courtesy,
nobody would have had this wonderful debate to take sides on....

Could FM99 have just said to himself, screw it, live and learn....

sure he could, and known what NOT to do in the future



And I'm not saying that any of the TTD mods responding in this thread are doing anything less than their "sworn duty"....

Not a one of 'em has done anything less than what was expected of 'em....

Could be they discussed the subject in private, so they could all be on the same page? You bet'chum, Red Ryder. And they've done a great job of trying to explain the site's viewpoint, whether it was stridently, or with an eye to smoothing over ANY ruffled feathers.



Realize that ol' FM99 had lost the arguement long before he began it. In fact, his arguement isn't with TTD or the staff, his problem is with the person he gave it to, whether that be Carina or someone else.

FM99's best bet would be to beat the living crap out of whomever disrespected his wishes, bust a kneecap or two and permanently disable the cocksucker.... although that might open a new can of worms. probably dealing with laws and lawyers and jail time, but I'll bet ya, after that nobody would disrespect his wishes... and if made public, especially all over the internet, it might even make one or two assclown think twice.

Unless ol' FM99 has figured it out and gives nothing away ever again. Which is his perrogative.


I think we'd all find that funny, no matter which side of this debate we favor.
To hear of some taper beating the living fuck out of someone who asked for it by disrespecting his wishes, no matter who owns the music copyrights, yeah, we'd all laugh at that.


__________________________________________________________


Truthfully, the best way not to have a clandestine recording circulate in any way is to not let ANY copies out.

There are ways to curb circulation, but most "modern" collectors don't give a rat's ass about anything except their own greed, many of 'em download stuff they'll never listen to, just because they can. Some of 'em have more music downloaded then they'll ever be able to listen to in their lives and still wanna suck down more.....

You have been given some absolutely great advice (rspencer) and some self-serving advice in this thread by people who wouldn't deign to ever do any recording.

Time to let go, my friend, because you ain't gonna win. You are pissing in the wind, trying to convince someone with entitlement issues about biting the hand.


There are things you can do that will make you feel better about the numerous greed-heads out there, sabotaging a recording before putting it in circulation, but in the long run it isn't gonna matter...

There are dozens of idiots who live for those sort of recordings because then they get to REMASTER and slap their names on 'em.

Also, never forget that there are ten times that many idiots who enjoy lying about lineage anyway.

The hobby is fueled by entitlement and that ain't gonna change no more, no more no more, so Hit The Road Jack, Your recording belongs to them now.


ENTITLEMENT.... go back and read some of the replies you got, and see if that isn't what the motivation is.


ENTITLEMENT.....sometimes known as biting the hand that feeds you........

:lmao:

sabkisscrue
2010-08-11, 12:18 AM
Good post. Courtesy and entitlement. I like that guy.

freezer
2010-08-11, 12:59 AM
A ............

And that's that. If the lowest circulating copy is 5th generation, it is not a master. Not even if all earlier gens no longer exist. It's a 5th gen copy of a show in which lower gens don't exist, nothing more.

.............
My dear young friend,

You are ABSOLUTELY never going to be a low-gen Led Zeppelin collector...

:lol4:

Have you never heard the term...."THAT WHICH PASSES FOR THE MASTER"....?

A Led Zep low-gen collector in Burbank coined that one.

It was a standard LZ low-gen term, until the advent of B/T and lying about generations became de rigueur.



good golly, young Spencer, you need to do a bit more study on the history of the hobby.



(However, Reggie, you are a goddam genius, for your neat and sussinct phrasing of the obvious....although it probably won't make you any friends among the trolls.)

chinajoe
2010-08-11, 01:19 AM
havent seen any posts from carina, the volbeat uploader. in fact, its been quite awhile
since their last appearance...

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in fact, this is now at dime. the uploader there joined on june 20th as well and has only this one upload.

one runs the risk of seeing a show elsewhere, if its traded out. but there is something
to be said about having a trusted source. lots of shows from many bands have seen very limited to zero circulation and remain as such for various reasons. (take the sabbath dumfries show, or the elusive doors nola tape) it takes years to have a trusted trader,and it seems most of that attitude passed on shortly after the birth of the burner.

everythings gonna be all right. things could be a lot worse. but arguing to remove a show, when its a little hard to prove beyond any doubt that you are the taper, is just futile.

Thulani
2010-08-11, 03:06 AM
Dont be naive.
You wouldnt have a lot of what you have in your collection if money wasnt exchanged to begin with.

A trader screwing over another trader is one thing but a terrible policy is what we are talking about here and a general consensus among traders where filmers/tapers wishes are disrespected and thats a huge problem.
You should have the policy where a filmer can request a show of his taken down, regardless if that policy has been misused or abused before. You should on the side of the filmer and a filmer's wishes should supercede any Mod or any policy. Thats how it should be, thats how its always been because these are the ones who provide the material and they deserve the respect. I dont know how you could see it any differently.
What a load of crap. You're asking money on other forums to buy tapes from tapers, which are screwing the artists who gave the permission to film (or not), but you're upset on traders who cheat other traders.

paddington
2010-08-11, 03:23 AM
with one exception - those artists actually own that work.

In this case, the taper is simply a fan and, while very much appreciated, his recording isn't subject to his whims once he gives it out.

but yes, it is the same result. If lawsuits and bully tactics can't stop it in the RIAA's case, why would anyone think some torrent mods could stop it? Besides, as has been noted, it was tried and proved impossible. And people don't like it. If we ban it, it'll just go up 30 secs later in 5 other places.. then it will show up here again when we aren't looking.


Freedom, man. Hard to control it.

Thats just your way of giving up and copping out of your duties as a Mod.



not really. I don't feel like a cop... or copper...


"If we take it down its gonna go up elsewhere".
Thats not an excuse for doing nothing and pissing off someone who can torrent several of his masters, which you may not care about but I'm sure theres plenty of people who would like that alot.
Im gonna say this again, its irrelevant who gets a hold of a tapers recording.
The whole notion, that once he gives out its no longer his, is absurd.


never said it was no longer his, just that he no longer has control over it. You fail to grok the subtle difference.


I gotta say this, dont bite the hand that feeds you. Tapers are what provide not just TTD but the entire trading and downloading community the material that we have. Be on the side of them. I dont care whether you are a Mod or a downloader, have some respect for those who bust their asses and deserve more respect than they are getting
especially from the people who have posted in this thread.

You absolute dense fuck, I have already posted about this directly above. TTD is one of the most taper-friendly sites on the net. You do not suddenly speak for all tapers just because none of us want to revisit this tired, old topic AGAIN.

You are preaching to the choir, here. I'm sorry tapes get traded when people ask others not to do it - but it isn't a new thing :lol: did you just tape your first concert or what? If there's a better version to be had, we'll do a swap. We always do. We WILL NOT PULL A SHOW BECAUSE SOME GUY DECIDES HE NO LONGER WANTS IT TRADED after he's handed out copies.

and please do not start that bullshit again about how the show was uncirculated before it was torrented here. That isn't possible.


Many of us have been where you are - but you have to learn you cannot control everything. When the tape goes out, it's out. You cannot moderate the entire internet and the shit you are taping doesn't belong to you, anyway.

mooncusser
2010-08-11, 07:39 AM
but I want an Oompa-Loompa now!!!!
:lol:
mobile PWing device

freezer
2010-08-11, 10:18 AM
but I want an Oompa-Loompa now!!!!
:lol:
mobile PWing device

You're entitled, right?

pmonk
2010-08-11, 12:59 PM
I think it is important to make note, here, that we do not disrespect tapers' wishes at TTD.

We cannot control what the general public does. We do not have the time to keep a running list of what shows are not to be torrented because the taper has changed his mind or gave a copy out to someone he shouldn't have trusted.

There are 136,000+ files being swapped right now on the tracker bwetween 10,000+ peers. We cannot keep track of which ones come with stipulations.

Really - you and dcblowjob seemed to jump all over that freezer recording I upped because "magic", plastic microphones and stand-alone recorders was something that you could not comprehend.

Personally - if a taper asked to take it down TTD should honor the request but the reality is once he trades it out all bets are off!

pmonk
2010-08-11, 01:01 PM
You record a show.

If the band allows it, then they also usually expect free distribution. It's a way to give something extra to their fans.

If they don't allow it, then the "rights" & rules of the label, management, venue & band have likely been "violated." Yet you expect the taper to have some rights to control a recording he let out, in perpetuity?

Irrelevant. You definitely shouldnt be Moderating a bootleg torrent site or calling yourself a taper, thats for sure.

Hate to burst your bubble - by rspencer is correct. Once you trade out a recording, you no longer have the "right" to stop it from being circulated!

Even Freezer can agree with that!

paddington
2010-08-11, 01:07 PM
I think it is important to make note, here, that we do not disrespect tapers' wishes at TTD.

We cannot control what the general public does. We do not have the time to keep a running list of what shows are not to be torrented because the taper has changed his mind or gave a copy out to someone he shouldn't have trusted.

There are 136,000+ files being swapped right now on the tracker bwetween 10,000+ peers. We cannot keep track of which ones come with stipulations.

Really - you and dcblowjob

objection. Pejorative.

Thulani
2010-08-11, 01:59 PM
Meanwhile in the real world:
AEG Live sues concert bootleggers before they bootleg

Just because the Mile High Music Festival this weekend in Denver hasn't happened yet, and just because the bootleggers haven't yet set up shop, doesn't mean that hundreds of individuals haven't already been sued.

AEG Live has jumped on a growing legal trend in the concert world by filing a trademark infringement claim against hundreds of John Does and Jane Does. According to AEG's new complaint, "only the plaintiff has the right to sell merchandise bearing the Festival Trademarks at and near the Festival."

AEG is asking a federal court in Colorado to order the US Marshal, local and state police, off duty officers, and AEG agents to seize and impound bootlegged merchandise.

The complaint follows a similar lawsuit filed earlier this summer by UMG's merchandising division, Bravado International Group, in anticipation of a series of concerts by Lady Gaga at New York's Madison Square Garden. That action opened some eyes in the concert industry, showing other outfits how to use the once-rare John Doe trademark lawsuit to get law enforcement involved.

Now, AEG is hoping to replicate Bravado's success. No damage has yet been done. And any follow-up legal action after the concert is doubtful. But of course, one would hardly expect anybody to show up this week in a Colorado court to contest AEG's lawsuit. A supporting brief filed in the case says that defendants do have that opportunity, although AEG submits that "experience shows it is doubtful they will do so."

The brief also says the unnamed defendants "are not neophytes, but rather somewhat sophisticated businessmen who operate in stealth to thwart the legitimate rights of Plaintiff."

Some lawyers defend the action as appropriate. One trademark lawyer pointed out to us that on the criminal side, courts empower police officers with the discretion to execute temporary remedies. And that in this instance, bootleggers are too nomadic to be served summons.

We're less than convinced. The threat of bootleggers is real, of course, but it's based purely on speculation, without evidence of the kind of past specific misconduct that might trigger temporary remedies as seen in criminal proceedings. That seems odd, and perhaps a slippery slope. Why can't any company in America file John Doe trademark action and get police to seize goods they believe will be infringing? What stops this beyond the concert venue?

http://thresq.hollywoodreporter.com/2010/08/aeg-live-sues-anonymous-troublemakers-at-next-weeks-concert-in-denver.html

freezer
2010-08-11, 02:27 PM
Meanwhile in the real world:
AEG Live sues concert bootleggers before they bootleg

Just because the Mile High Music Festival this weekend in Denver hasn't happened yet, and just because the bootleggers haven't yet set up shop, doesn't mean that hundreds of individuals haven't already been sued.

AEG Live has jumped on a growing legal trend in the concert world by filing a trademark infringement claim against hundreds of John Does and Jane Does. According to AEG's new complaint, "only the plaintiff has the right to sell merchandise bearing the Festival Trademarks at and near the Festival."

AEG is asking a federal court in Colorado to order the US Marshal, local and state police, off duty officers, and AEG agents to seize and impound bootlegged merchandise.

The complaint follows a similar lawsuit filed earlier this summer by UMG's merchandising division, Bravado International Group, in anticipation of a series of concerts by Lady Gaga at New York's Madison Square Garden. That action opened some eyes in the concert industry, showing other outfits how to use the once-rare John Doe trademark lawsuit to get law enforcement involved.

Now, AEG is hoping to replicate Bravado's success. No damage has yet been done. And any follow-up legal action after the concert is doubtful. But of course, one would hardly expect anybody to show up this week in a Colorado court to contest AEG's lawsuit. A supporting brief filed in the case says that defendants do have that opportunity, although AEG submits that "experience shows it is doubtful they will do so."

The brief also says the unnamed defendants "are not neophytes, but rather somewhat sophisticated businessmen who operate in stealth to thwart the legitimate rights of Plaintiff."

Some lawyers defend the action as appropriate. One trademark lawyer pointed out to us that on the criminal side, courts empower police officers with the discretion to execute temporary remedies. And that in this instance, bootleggers are too nomadic to be served summons.

We're less than convinced. The threat of bootleggers is real, of course, but it's based purely on speculation, without evidence of the kind of past specific misconduct that might trigger temporary remedies as seen in criminal proceedings. That seems odd, and perhaps a slippery slope. Why can't any company in America file John Doe trademark action and get police to seize goods they believe will be infringing? What stops this beyond the concert venue?

http://thresq.hollywoodreporter.com/2010/08/aeg-live-sues-anonymous-troublemakers-at-next-weeks-concert-in-denver.html

Gee, now that begs these questions:

Will any stealthed recordings that may possibly captured at the Mile High Music Festival be allowed through the auspices of The Trader's Den?

Considering this may be a wonderful opportunity for some of the 'entitlement crowd' to test their legal rights, will any staff members of TTD be willing to show up this week in a Colorado court to contest AEG's lawsuit?

What a terrific opportunity for some of you folks to put your money where your mouth is.


Jameskg and dcbullet could represent the entire bootlegging industry via their staff positions at TTD, because you can be goddam motherfucking sure that AEG Live's team of attorneys won't make any distinction between "free distribution" and "selling for a profit" in a court of law; the challenge of making the distinction will fall squarely on the defendants shoulders.


Best of luck to James and Billy-Bob!

Homebrew101
2010-08-11, 03:06 PM
Gee, now that begs these questions:

Will any stealthed recordings that may possibly captured at the Mile High Music Festival be allowed through the auspices of The Trader's Den?

Considering this may be a wonderful opportunity for some of the 'entitlement crowd' to test their legal rights, will any staff members of TTD be willing to show up this week in a Colorado court to contest AEG's lawsuit?

What a terrific opportunity for some of you folks to put your money where your mouth is.


Jameskg and dcbullet could represent the entire bootlegging industry via their staff positions at TTD, because you can be goddam motherfucking sure that AEG Live's team of attorneys won't make any distinction between "free distribution" and "selling for a profit" in a court of law; the challenge of making the distinction will fall squarely on the defendants shoulders.


Best of luck to James and Billy-Bob!

based on this part
"only the plaintiff has the right to sell merchandise bearing the Festival Trademarks at and near the Festival."

I interpret the lawsuit to only have bearing on merchandise like t-shirts etc. that might name the festival not recordings made at the fest

rspencer
2010-08-11, 04:30 PM
My dear young friend,

You are ABSOLUTELY never going to be a low-gen Led Zeppelin collector...

:lol4:

I'm not too broke up about it. :lol:



good golly, young Spencer, you need to do a bit more study on the history of the hobby.

I know a bit, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with all of it. In my defense, I probably have spent too much time listening to better bands. :)


Will any stealthed recordings that may possibly captured at the Mile High Music Festival be allowed through the auspices of The Trader's Den?


If somebody wants to pony up my airfare, ticket, food & lodging, I'll be happy to find out. :D

AAR.oner
2010-08-11, 04:34 PM
This has to be one of the most retartedly funny threads in a long time :clap:

paddington
2010-08-11, 04:34 PM
Gee, now that begs these questions:

Will any stealthed recordings that may possibly captured at the Mile High Music Festival be allowed through the auspices of The Trader's Den?

Considering this may be a wonderful opportunity for some of the 'entitlement crowd' to test their legal rights, will any staff members of TTD be willing to show up this week in a Colorado court to contest AEG's lawsuit?

What a terrific opportunity for some of you folks to put your money where your mouth is.


Jameskg and dcbullet could represent the entire bootlegging industry via their staff positions at TTD, because you can be goddam motherfucking sure that AEG Live's team of attorneys won't make any distinction between "free distribution" and "selling for a profit" in a court of law; the challenge of making the distinction will fall squarely on the defendants shoulders.


Best of luck to James and Billy-Bob!

based on this part
"only the plaintiff has the right to sell merchandise bearing the Festival Trademarks at and near the Festival."

I interpret the lawsuit to only have bearing on merchandise like t-shirts etc. that might name the festival not recordings made at the fest


yes, and we always cease and desist when asked - by the owner of the performance - you know, like the BAND or it's management. It's happened a few times and is no big deal.
We have never allowed trading of bands that request not to be traded here. It is their music.

freezer
2010-08-11, 07:09 PM
yes, and we always cease and desist when asked - by the owner of the performance - you know, like the BAND or it's management. It's happened a few times and is no big deal.
We have never allowed trading of bands that request not to be traded here. It is their music.

Yes, absolutely YOU do just that, especially in cases when it's legally released music that's being torrented.... and noticeably you fellas always seem to get it done just in time to so that anyone who is already downloading is able to get their complete, and then you guys most diligently shut it down.

That is very commendable, Jimmy. :thumbsup

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:





However, your wording says that "We never allow trading of bands that request not to be traded here"


How DO you police "trading" ?

I can understand how you police "torrents"....and I can see how you'd be able to police vines and B&P, but how do you police "trading", especially when its one on one snail mail trading?

Are you guys ramdomly opening packages? Are you guys reading private messages? How do you do it?

As anyone can see, the name of the site is "The TRADER'S Den" as opposed to "The TORRENT Den" and we have to surmise that the site was so named to encourage swaping of music no matter what means or media used... and that says stamps and cassettes or even reels are also encouraged

Also, surely the site was so named before you acquired your badge of authority, James, but how do you make sure no one is snail mail trading any non approved items?


Inquiring minds wanna know, please.

:hmm:

freezer
2010-08-11, 07:34 PM
"only the plaintiff has the right to sell merchandise bearing the Festival [B]Trademarks at and near the Festival."

I interpret the lawsuit to only have bearing on merchandise like t-shirts etc. that might name the festival not recordings made at the fest[/QUOTE]

Possibly, but it's just as likely that anyone zealous enough in filing a pre-emptive lawsuit would be delighted in bringing action against anyone caught in the act of taping or filming on the Festival's premesis.

OR possibly filing suit against any domestically based B/T site hosting the music after the fact.

rspencer would like to take a shot, but might I suggest that he doesn't inform the Festival promoters before-hand of his intentions nor should he supply them with his name and address once the captures begin to be shared on any domestic B/T site.

Anyway, if they were to file action against this site, we all know who's name would be on the suit, and it ain't jameskg's..........



Those Mile High Music Festival people come across as fucking crazy, and though an individual might prevail in litigation, the real winners in such a lawsuit are ALWAYS the lawyers who get paid 500. per hour.

Much as I admire rspencer, I don't wish to see him spending a single motherfucking cent to prove he's within his rights.


YMMV, homebrew101.... though I feel the same towards you, pal, I don't wanna know bad enough to see you tied up in litigation, ok?

freezer
2010-08-11, 08:21 PM
The time now is 07:20 PM.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
freezer, sabkisscrue, SundayDriver,

U2Lynne

:wave:

Hello Grandma..........

sabkisscrue
2010-08-11, 10:23 PM
not really. I don't feel like a cop... or copper...


Copping out means to avoid responsibility.


never said it was no longer his

You and others implied that.

just that he no longer has control over it.

You obviously arent a taper so I dont
know why you are even talking about it. Honestly.


TTD is one of the most taper-friendly sites on the net.

How can you make such a statement when yourself and other Mods have been very anti-taper and surprisingly anti-bootleg as well. Its astonishing.


We WILL NOT PULL A SHOW BECAUSE SOME GUY DECIDES HE NO LONGER WANTS IT TRADED after he's handed out copies.


Yet you make such a statement that "TTD is one of the most taper-friendly sites on the net."
Regardless of what reason a taper/filmer has for wanting to have a show pulled. You should honor such a request and not ask questions. Thats the type of respect you must show tapers/filmers if you are gonna make such comments that "TTD is taper friendly". I would enforce such a policy at TTD and make it truely "taper friendly".



Many of us have been where you are

Bullshit. You arent a taper/filmer and you know it.
Didnt you go to Led Zep in London and not even bother taping it?

but you have to learn you cannot control everything.

The issue is not control. Its about respect and courtesy.


the shit you are taping doesn't belong to you, anyway.

I think its time for you to stop. Seriously, what
a ridiculous argument to make. For you as a Moderator of a bootleg torrent site to make such an argument its astonishing. People put their ass on the line to record concerts and make them available to people like myself and you
and they deserve every bit of respect for it at the TTD

Hate to burst your bubble - by rspencer is correct. Once you trade out a recording, you no longer have the "right" to stop it from being circulated!

Quite frankly neither you or Rspencer knows what hes talking about.
Unless you are a taper/filmer you shouldnt really comment.
But the truth is, filmers/tapers have every right to control where, how, or what is done with their recordings, whether they are allowed to circulate,
or whether or not they are torrented or where they are torrented.

schmoe75
2010-08-11, 10:32 PM
Circles....thread closed

AAR.oner
2010-08-12, 09:45 AM
damn you schmoe, this was the only interesting thread ina while! delusions of grandeur and complete lack of knowlege are always top notch internet fare

oh well, guess i'll go back to feedin pinkys to the Pope ;) :lol:

paddington
2010-08-12, 12:12 PM
the Pope :lol: