Why aren't FLAC shows tagged?

[speeble]

I've just recently started back into the live music world and I'm curious why FLAC shows aren't normally tagged? I mean, I understand that once they've been seeded changing tags will invalidate your files, but why aren't the files properly tagged in the first place?

I'd rather have tags that don't necessarily fit my preference than no tags, know what I mean?

[rspencer]

I don't tag.

And I'm not going to.

I taped it. I edited it. I seeded it.

Feel free to tag it. :wave:

[paddington]

I've just recently started back into the live music world and I'm curious why FLAC shows aren't normally tagged? I mean, I understand that once they've been seeded changing tags will invalidate your files, but why aren't the files properly tagged in the first place?

I'd rather have tags that don't necessarily fit my preference than no tags, know what I mean?


Note - this is why we require ST5 (FFP) checksums at TTD. They are generated from the decompressed WAV audio, only. Changing the FLAC tag will not cause the checksum to fail, in this case.

It WILL fail if you use MD5, as MD5 hashes the entire file, including tags, art, headers, etc - which is why we do not allow MD5 for audio torrents.

more info about this can be found in my sig.



I always tag my FLACs when I seed. There are several software programs that will auto-tag based on file names and wildcards, which makes it very quick. I recommend doing it, but we will not likely ever require it here at TTD.

[speeble]

Note - this is why we require ST5 (FFP) checksums at TTD. They are generated from the decompressed WAV audio, only. Changing the FLAC tag will not cause the checksum to fail, in this case.

It WILL fail if you use MD5, as MD5 hashes the entire file, including tags, art, headers, etc - which is why we do not allow MD5 for audio torrents.

more info about this can be found in my sig.

I may very well be missing something because I'll admit to not totally understanding BT technology, but regardless of the checksum required here, if I download a torrent and re-tag the files, I won't be able to seed those files any longer, right?

rspencer: I thank you and everyone else for all that you do. But don't you keep the files for your own use as well? I would think that would be enough reason to tag them. And I'm not trying to argue the point with you, just honest curiosity.

[paddington]

The specific .torrent (whole thing, on the tracker) will no longer allow your files to hash out to become a seeder, no - because the files cannot change at all and still match the torrent's master checksum.

However, the ST5 (FFP) hashes for each audio file will check just fine as long as you do not change the audio.

The purpose is to be sure the audio is the same from version to version (and hasn't been tampered with).

[rspencer]

rspencer: I thank you and everyone else for all that you do. But don't you keep the files for your own use as well? I would think that would be enough reason to tag them. And I'm not trying to argue the point with you, just honest curiosity.

Just depends on your playback method, I suppose.

I usually just play on my PC, or stereo via my PC, or burn a CDR for the car.

And I tend to just play a show as a whole. Should I want a particular song, I just check the text file. No biggie.

Tags aren't of much use to me, so I don't spend the time to tag. :dunno:

[speeble]

Fair enough. :)

[Toadinohio]

I'm with rspencer on this-
It takes a lot of time and effort to set up, tape, take down, transfer, split tracks, and then convert to FLAC.
Then make a text file (sometimes painstakingly track down a setlist if you are not familiar with the artist enough) , make a torrent, then upload it.
By the time I've done all that, the last thing I want to do is add another step.

Also add in the fact that I don't care about tagging, for many of the same reasons rspencer mentioned, and that some people have different tagging preferences-
it's just too much!

I don't care what you do with the files after that- as long as you seed back (or share in some way), don't sell it, and only convert to lossy for personal use.
And even that is out of my control.
:)

Although I was talking to another taper friend of mine-
he suggested we should find another person to do the transfers/conversions/tagging since we are getting backed up with shows and they are not getting out in a timely fashion (if at all!)
So we may be looking for volunteer(s) in the future-
and the chance of the files being tagged will probably go up.

[rspencer]

I'm with rspencer on this-
It takes a lot of time and effort to set up, tape, take down, transfer, split tracks, and then convert to FLAC.
Then make a text file (sometimes painstakingly track down a setlist if you are not familiar with the artist enough) , make a torrent, then upload it.
By the time I've done all that, the last thing I want to do is add another step.


That can be such a PITA sometimes, especially if there are a bunch of instrumentals. Man, I've spent hours scouring the 'net for samples, blogs, etc. to try to ID instrumental songs before.

And that also affects the tagging. So many shows get posted without setlists or with incorrect setlists, so you can end up with incorrect tags.

[dcbullet]

I've started tagging my flac files for the shows I seed. Takes about 5 minutes. I think it is a good practice. You can put lots of info into those tags I've discovered!

[tonebloke]

Can one of the knowledgeable please explain exactly what this "tagging" is. Is it the filling of info IE: title, artist, location; etc onto the flac file.

[AAR.oner]

flac tags are info embedded in the file that contain artist, title, year, song name, etc etc

[GhostInTheMachine]

all modern playback devices need tags - examples (*note: the first example is tagged with band name only)
76954

76955
display is from main stereo system ( HTPC )

[freezer]

I've started tagging my flac files for the shows I seed. Takes about 5 minutes. I think it is a good practice. You can put lots of info into those tags I've discovered!

So what happens when someone seeds a show and the tags are loaded with misinformation, speculation, and garbage info?

Does someone on staff rectify the info OR is it just TTD policy to keep the bad information and let the show/set continue to be passed along as is.

I've seen recordings I made years ago turn up at this site with incredible amounts of bogus information, and I've always wondered about this.

Honestly -- Why are torrents allowed at TTD with misinformation in the tags?


This is a serious question; I really don't understand why a show isn't removed immediately when the seeder passes along bogus information in the description and / or tags?

Wouldn't it be easier to pull the show until the right information has been ascertained and the "mistakes" corrected?

[LZJoker]

Isn't it usually just dates and the artist/song name in tags rather than lineage?

[tonebloke]

flac tags are info embedded in the file that contain artist, title, year, song name, etc etc

Thanks for the info. Can you name the best 1 or 2 programs to use please.

[Thulani]

Foobar2000 (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Players/Foobar.shtml) - player, tagger, converter, it does almost everything you need. For tagging bootlegs I use MassTagger (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_masstag).

Addons:
http://www.foobar2000.org/components
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=33

[dukenukem555]

When I tag a bootleg, it is easy to fill the field "album". But how do you tag a normal aud record? What do you put into this field?

My tagging tool offers me artist, title, album, year, track number, total tracks, genre, comment. Are there more fields for year, venue etc?

[Thulani]

In Foobar you can add extra fields. I usually add 2 extra fields for source and lineage. In the album field I always put the name of the City with the date of the gig. You can also give a name to that bootleg. I don't think you'll find people complaining.

[freezer]

In Foobar you can add extra fields. I usually add 2 extra fields for source and lineage. In the album field I always put the name of the City with the date of the gig. You can also give a name to that bootleg. I don't think you'll find people complaining.

Fuck no, you're 1000% correct -- they especially don't complain when there's bogus info in the notes/description, so why would they complain about giving a bootleg a title?

[dukenukem555]

Fuck no, you're 1000% correct -- they especially don't complain when there's bogus info in the notes/description, so why would they complain about giving a bootleg a title?

hrhr

I just found this site: http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/doc/v-comment.html Gives a little overview about some kind of recommendations/examples.

Cheers
dn

[AAR.oner]

So what happens when someone seeds a show and the tags are loaded with misinformation, speculation, and garbage info?

Does someone on staff rectify the info OR is it just TTD policy to keep the bad information and let the show/set continue to be passed along as is.

I've seen recordings I made years ago turn up at this site with incredible amounts of bogus information, and I've always wondered about this.

Honestly -- Why are torrents allowed at TTD with misinformation in the tags?


This is a serious question; I really don't understand why a show isn't removed immediately when the seeder passes along bogus information in the description and / or tags?

Wouldn't it be easier to pull the show until the right information has been ascertained and the "mistakes" corrected?
yes it'd be pulled, IF the "correct information" could actually be ascertained...however, most of the time it can't...hell, even when it comes to those recordings of yers you mentioned, you've never actually corrected the misinformation with anything other than vague hints -- certainly never any definitive, concrete lineage


but if "Freezer's Recording A" was being seeded with incorrect info/lineage/etc [like most of yer recordings that surface here it seems], and in response you provided a definitive transfer with detailed transfer info, then yes the other version WOULD be pulled





per the topic -- i don't tag flac files either...they're not necessary to the quality or listening experience, and have never been of use to me...so why go thru the extra 10 mins of entering data when i could be transferring another show...thats just me personally, i don't care if someone else edits the flac tags once i distribute it

[paddington]

We do not check metadata in torrent files.


I think it is good practice to tag the files with artist, title and maybe a date if it merits, but we do not officially give a shit if you do or not.

Seeder's / taper's choice.

[freezer]

yes it'd be pulled, IF the "correct information" could actually be ascertained...however, most of the time it can't...hell, even when it comes to those recordings of yers you mentioned, you've never actually corrected the misinformation with anything other than vague hints -- certainly never any definitive, concrete lineage

What the hell is vague about: UNKNOWN GENERATION RECORDING>silver bootleg>TTD torrent

Yet there are fucking "silver bootlegs" with even less correct info/data/tags than that allowed and embraced and WORSHIPPED here.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=81293

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52239


And Aar.oner, remember this one? Wasn't it one of your favorites?

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79169

That one has an mp3 in the audience portion, yet it was here for a long time, before james-kg decided enough was enough. :thumbsup



but if "Freezer's Recording A" was being seeded with incorrect info/lineage/etc [like most of yer recordings that surface here it seems], and in response you provided a definitive transfer with detailed transfer info, then yes the other version WOULD be pulled

C'mon Aar.oner, that's bs and you know it, my young friend.

If someone purposefully lies and falsifies lineage in the tags and in the data file, then THAT specific torrent is bullshit. period...

Lies/false information alone should be enough to get a seed pulled until it's sorted out.

Especially when the original taper points out the motherfucking LIES that are in the description/data file/tags..........

That George Harrison 11/26/74 has bogus lineage in the data, I poiinted it out (in that thread and reported to the mods), and fuck-a-duck, it was not only accepted with a fucking LIE as the lineage, the seeder whined that was how he got it. (then proceeded to post other seeds with bogus lineage, always whining that "it was how he got it" so it's OK to pass on the lies? :disbelief )

But don't pick on him alone, huh, when there are a number of others that also do it constantly.




(Your above-described method, Aar.oner, allows the BOGUS version enough time to get spread all over...which is something I see happening at TTD with torrents of OFFICIAL material...Officialy released material always seems to be left up long enough to be spread to whomever was already on it.)

Look: if you don't know the information, then don't lie. How about using that as rule #1, huh?

[AAR.oner]

i agree, but in all honesty there's no way we can truly verify any lineage...hell, i can seed one of my own recordings, make up some bs in the lineage, and done...no one knows...point is, its impossible to truly police

but like i said, if a recording of yers makes the rounds with bs info and it really bothers you, then offer up a direct transfer with the REAL info...problem solved

[then again, you could bs on that info and no one'd know, right?]



by gones...they're just concert recordings anyway

[AAR.oner]

oh and you should know that NO zepellin recording is one of my favorites...fuck zeppelin!

:lol4:

[freezer]

oh and you should know that NO zepellin recording is one of my favorites...fuck zeppelin!

:lol4:


I was referring to McMuffin-boy.

:lol4:

[AAR.oner]

true, i do enjoy that lil muffin tart!

:lol:

[freezer]

i agree, but i..............point is, its impossible to truly police


by gones...they're just concert recordings anyway

NOT always impossible, especially when the original taper reports that the info used in the tags/data file of a torrent of a bootleg is BOGUS, huh?



And you're right, just concert recordings.

NEVER a reason to LIE about 'em, the other 99.99% of the world doesn't care about 'em, so the appeal is only to a very small group.

[sanpablobay]

:popcorn:

[freezer]

:popcorn:

:rolleyes:








:lol4:

[LZJoker]

Bottom line is nobody knows for sure the lineage of anything presented online, and if the original taper is bothered that much by people bullshitting one of their tapes, then they can either stop circulating tapes or up master transfers themselves, other than that there is no way of policing it, so if a particular recording only circulates as such and the taper is unwilling or chooses not to remedy the situation most people would rather have A version of said tape than none at all.

[freezer]

Bottom line is nobody knows for sure the lineage of anything presented online, and if the original taper is bothered that much by people bullshitting one of their tapes, then they can either stop circulating tapes or up master transfers themselves, other than that there is no way of policing it, so if a particular recording only circulates as such and the taper is unwilling or chooses not to remedy the situation most people would rather have A version of said tape than none at all.

:lol4: wow what a reply. :rolleyes:


Man, certainly it isn't that hard to comperhend?

Surely you could figure it out, right?

It's really simple. Don't lie, it isn't necessary.

Lies are lies and why not just stop lying?


Stop lying, instead.

PERIOD.

Stop the lies. Just stop lying whether it's within the tags or in the data field OR whether it's on the phone. STOP LYING, don't make it up..



If you don't know the lineage or any of the information, don't LIE about it. P E R I O D.

[Limulus]

Freezer surely didnt point to the Led Zep community with this...

[dcbullet]

Thanks for the info. Can you name the best 1 or 2 programs to use please.

I use mp3tag: http://www.mp3tag.de/en/

I found this to be the easiest for me. YMMV.

For Album, I put the following format:

2010-05-07 - San Francisco, CA

[ccrider895]

I was just browsing for something else and this thread caught my eye. It seems that not many people know how to use the native tagger in flac frontend, so I wrote a little tutorial for a few friends the other day. Might as well share it here, if it can help anyone.

I can confirm the flac tags show up in at least 4 programs I use (foobar 2000, winamp, db.Poweramp and Soundforge 10 - view->metadata->summary information) The only catch is that you have to name the files, either manually or in another program.


Tagging in flac frontend:

You must first name the.wav files to their respective song names manually or in another program. I just have the track number and the song name.
Next, If you go to flac frontend and click the button for tag configuration, you'll get a popup window where you can put your info in. If you mouse over the "custom" button, you'll see the options for adding the information in a certain order. Finally, make sure to have "add tags" checked.

If you are tagging the files for a show you just tracked, it makes sense to do it in the native flac frontend, because you can tag at the same time you are encoding and removing any SBE's. Once the .wav files are named, you just drag & drop them in and hit "encode".(make sure they are lined up properly. Sometimes you have to go back and take up a space or add a '0' in numbers 1-9
After the usual process, you will see the tags being written (it goes pretty quick)


Etree wiki on flac-tagging:

http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=FlacMetadata


free software programs like foobar and winamp read flac tags. Here is a (slightly outdated) list of hardware devices' that also play flacs and read flac tags:

http://flac.sourceforge.net/links.html#hardware

If anyone has anything else to add or correct, please feel free. This surely isn't the last word on this subject. Also, if anyone that uses a flac-playing hardware device other than a computer uses this method successfully, I'd be interested to know if they show up properly. I'm working on going virtually disc-less, but it's going to take a bit of time, and money. :cool:

screenshot:

[dcbullet]

Do you have to tag each file separately with Flac Frontend?

Like, do you need to type in the Artist name for each file?

[paddington]

Do you have to tag each file separately with Flac Frontend?

Like, do you need to type in the Artist name for each file?

it has some automation options.

[Unidecker]

tag and rename works fine here.... flac frontend do people still REALLY use that pos app ?

needless to say tlh is all you need flac frontend died long ago imho..

[ccrider895]

Each time you tag a new show, you do need to re-type the Artist's name & date etc. in the box, but you only have to name the individual files. Eac time you do a new show, once you type the info in the box, It tags each one with the artist, date & venue etc. automatically. If you want to be really lazy (like me :lol:), you can just cut & paste the track number & song name off the setlist you typed, when naming the wav files.

This method would be best, I think, for a new show you just cut the .wav files for, and you are converting to flac for the first time. If you had tons of old files you want to tag, I think a program that can process by the batch, (like the one Ghost in the Machine mentioned at the beginning) would be best. I just wanted to mention this, because it's simple and doesn't require an outside program, or writing funky code. A lot of people I've talked to didn't even know how to use the tagging feature in frontend. It's a good and easy way for a beginner to learn how to tag flacs.

[ccrider895]

To answer your question, I definitely use TLH more these days, but sometimes I have a need to do something in FF. I'd say it's dated, but hardly a POS, program in the way the SHN converter was. It still does the job perfectly without all those corrupted files you''d get with .shns.

[lintoni]

foobar live show tagger (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components/Live_Show_Tagger_(foo_tradersfriend))

etree-scripts (http://etree-scripts.sourceforge.net/) (command line/linux)
flacify command will convert files to flac and (or if already flac files) parse the text file for artist, date, venue, lineage, etc. and then create ffp file if none exists.

Neither are entirely reliable (they can produce unexpected results!) but both do generally save a lot of time when tagging live shows.

[cicada]

Help me "un-futz" - Can I remove tags? Please tell me how. It's just one more thing to go wrong.

I have this fileset that got tagged incorrectly by the original uploader (not from TTD). Somehow everything was tagged with wrong titles and tracknames. Interesting that the track names are no problem, but when I load in my player - the files now play out of order. These files are a mess. I would like to share the show sometime, but not like this.

[aikowolf]

Help me "un-futz" - Can I remove tags? Please tell me how. It's just one more thing to go wrong.

I have this fileset that got tagged incorrectly by the original uploader (not from TTD). Somehow everything was tagged with wrong titles and tracknames. Interesting that the track names are no problem, but when I load in my player - the files now play out of order. These files are a mess. I would like to share the show sometime, but not like this.


tag&rename has an option to strip all tags off of files..

http://download.cnet.com/Tag-amp-Rename/3000-2141_4-10041852.html


you can strip the bad ones out and then add what you want.


I use a squeezebox server for straeming all my tunes.. I now have uTorrent set to seed all torrenst to 500% then stop.. at that point I tag all my files w/ artist, Date as the album ( YYYY-MM-DD so it all lines up chronologically in my playlists) Genre, year.. w/ tag&renames there are like 100 tags you could out in it.

tagged with all that good information I can hit random play in my server and have confidence that if someone asks me about a particular track playing, I can answer all that pertinemt information for them by just looking at the info on the song playing and not having to worry about looking up some text file

[Unidecker]

add or remove all the tags you wish with tag and rename 3.5.7 shit just ownz

and even scrolls in winamp or foobar.. simple as heck to use too.

[cicada]

It seems these tags appear on mp3 players - right? What does that have to do with lossless music? I would argue that one good reason for not installing this metadata... If done improperly, it's a pain to repair. A second reason is that it makes those repaired files un-tradeable. A kettle of fish in my opinion. Having never used tags before... I admit this seems completely unnecessary.

Thanks for helping me with the repair. Peace.

[direwolf-pgh]

It seems these tags appear on mp3 players - right?tags are used by any and all modern flac players be it software or hardware based.
What does that have to do with lossless music? I would argue that one good reason for not installing this metadata... If done improperly, it's a pain to repair. A second reason is that it makes those repaired files un-tradeable. A kettle of fish in my opinion. Having never used tags before... I admit this seems completely unnecessary.if you still burn CD's then tags may seem unnecessary - yet some may enjoy the redbook feature of CD-Text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-Text).
For those who enjoy digital playback systems (portable player or home A/V servers) tags are essential - the cryptic 'etree naming convention' is severely lacking by todays standards.
it seems the live audio trade sites are the only sites that dont enforce tagging.

[dcbullet]

What does that have to do with lossless music?

Lots.

[cicada]

ok ok - there seems to be more than a little support for tags. :D What would the convention be - assuming we all named these files in the same way?

[dcbullet]

ok ok - there seems to be more than a little support for tags. :D What would the convention be - assuming we all named these files in the same way?

That's the beauty of it. You don't a file naming convention. Just tag the files with artist, song title, track. Then you could put whatever additional information you want. I put the date of the show and location for album title. I think that makes the most sense. I also put lineage in the notes.

[cicada]

Here is an example (change in blue). Is there a cleaner way to add this to the lineage?

Source:

SBD>Cassette Master>DAT

Conversion :

DAT @ 48k -> HT OMega 7.1 Soundcard (Optical Inputs)>WAV (48)> Syntillium Cool Edit Downsample to 44.1 WAV>CD WAV (Track Split)>FLAC

Remove & re-tag to allow tracks to play in order.
FLAC>mp3tag

[direwolf-pgh]

Here is an example (change in blue). Is there a cleaner way to add this to the lineage?87348

[rspencer]

I'd rather people didn't tag 'em. If I want it tagged, I have no problem doing so.
And the more that people tag files, the more I'm gonna have to deal with the bullshit like yesterday, listening to Ozzy while the player shows Jimmy Buffett tags.

[aikowolf]

I'd rather people didn't tag 'em. If I want it tagged, I have no problem doing so.
And the more that people tag files, the more I'm gonna have to deal with the bullshit like yesterday, listening to Ozzy while the player shows Jimmy Buffett tags.

:hmm: Buffet tags on an Ozzy recording.. sounds like the originator either had too many margs or not enough pills in him...

[faninor]

I tag my shows. If I'm going to seed something why wouldn't I take an extra 45 seconds to do it right? If you don't like how I tagged it (or if I don't like how someone else tagged a show I downloaded), metaflac --remove-all-tags. Easy.

[cicada]

I tag my shows. If I'm going to seed something why wouldn't I take an extra 45 seconds to do it right? If you don't like how I tagged it (or if I don't like how someone else tagged a show I downloaded), metaflac --remove-all-tags. Easy.

True, but now those filesets have new fingerprints. How many versions of the same show do you think will surface if everyone seeds with different tags?

[dcbullet]

True, but now those filesets have new fingerprints. How many versions of the same show do you think will surface if everyone seeds with different tags?


tags don't effect the fingerprints (except md5, I think, which is one reason we don't use them)

[Unidecker]

seems people are scared of what they don't understand tags are good when used properly and not abused by an idiot who doesn't get it stick to mp3's on i tunes if you don't understand this is for real archival purposes not to show off yer lamer mp3's with.

[faninor]

True, but now those filesets have new fingerprints. How many versions of the same show do you think will surface if everyone seeds with different tags?

All the more reason the original seeder should tag it, and tag it good. :D

(and, as dcbullet said, flac fingerprints are generated only from the audio data -- a standard checksum like cksum, md5, sha-1 etc. would change, but a flac ffp or any other checksum/fingerprints that have passed The Trader's Den's have no dependencies with tagging)

[Forbin117]

I tag all my flacs. I have my own way of doing it. I don't mind when the seeder tagged it, although to make it my convention I usually have to change things. Hell, tagging is part of the fun for me. And how many times have you looked at an mp3 site and seen "Marijuana - Phish" for a title. Let the taper use his convention, change it on your own if you don't like the way they did it.

[lpmaskman]

I tag them. Because I cannot scrobble them to last.fm.