What about High Definition streams?

[greatoak]

Please feel free to redirect me to any existing discussion thout I have not found anyone yet.

Looking at the video rules http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_videorules, it looks like there is no way to upload HD video files.

How can one upload these files?

Is transport stream allowed?

TIA.

Oak.

[pawel]

We have a discussion about it, and as yet there is no final word in what form it should be torrented. Blu-ray is obvious but some mods have doubts concerning .ts or rough .m2ts container. Also should we set a rule allowing transcoded videos to standard definition (DVD)?

Suggestions and opinions are welcome.

[pawel]

Here you may find proposed rules for high definition format (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_hdrules). Please post comments in this thread. Thanks

[sullen]

You are cutting out a source of audiece generated material by not allowing .MP4 containers which are High Definition and utilize the h.264 codec. I am specifically referring to the Sanyo HD1000 camera and others that use the .MP4 container for video all the way up through 1080p resolution. 99% of those who work with HD know what they are doing and are not trying to pollute the trading pool with re-encodes of other source material. Please reconsider your stance on the container issue because it is eliminating valid HD material sources. From the guidelines it appears you are limiting sources to only MPEG/h.264 based formats that can be burned to BR without reencoding. Not everyone will be using those formats to view HD content.

[my7of9]

You are cutting out a source of audiece generated material by not allowing .MP4 containers which are High Definition and utilize the h.264 codec. I am specifically referring to the Sanyo HD1000 camera and others that use the .MP4 container for video all the way up through 1080p resolution. 99% of those who work with HD know what they are doing and are not trying to pollute the trading pool with re-encodes of other source material. Please reconsider your stance on the container issue because it is eliminating valid HD material sources. From the guidelines it appears you are limiting sources to only MPEG/h.264 based formats that can be burned to BR without reencoding. Not everyone will be using those formats to view HD content.

I concur !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[my7of9]

I for one would be streaming content.
I do not have a Blu-ray burner and if someone gave me one I could not afford the discs. I think this might be the same for a lot of people.

[sullen]

I am glad you are open to the varying uses of the word "camera", let me be more specific "video camera". Did you bother to look up the Sanyo HD1000? I didn't think so...



Sanyo HD1000
http://www.sanyodigital.com/specifications.aspx?v=17

Features:
Full 1080i HD Video Recording
10x Optical (f/1.8) HD Zoom Lens
4 Megapixel Still Photos
Records Directly to SDHC Memory Cards

VPC-HD1000

Full 1080i HD Sensor
Incorporating the latest high-definition CMOS sensor, the SANYO Xacti HD1000 camcorder captures full 1920x1080 (1080i) high-definition video at 60 frames-per-second. Designed to record the rich and vibrant colors of real life, the HD1000 also captures the subtle tones to provide the natural-looking result. The HD1000's CMOS sensor provides the responsiveness needed to capture fast moving subjects and SANYO’s noise reduction technology helps obtain the cleanest signal from each pixel. The HD1000 records to the latest in MPEG-4 standard MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, delivering exceptional video clarity and detail while maintaining the smallest file size possible.

10x Optical HD Lens
At the front of the HD1000 is a commanding 10x all-glass HD lens. The HD1000's fast f/1.8 lens is capable of allowing almost four times more light through than conventional models to assist in lower light venues. Consisting of eight groups and eleven total lenses with a built-in neutral density filter, the HD1000's lens provides a fantastic field-of-view with a 38-380 mm range (35 mm equivalent). Combined with the 10x digital zoom, the HD1000 provides up to 100x total zooming capability.

Resolutions -

Full-HD 1920 x 1080 (60 fields/s 12Mbps) [HD-HR] 1280 x 720 (60fps, 12Mbps), [HD-SHQ] 1280 x 720 (30fps, 9Mbps), [TV-HR] 640 x 480 (60fps, 6Mbps ), [TV-SHQ] 640 x 480 (30fps, 3Mbps), [Web-SHQ] 320 x 240 (30fps)



So, tell me how a cap of say Glastonbury from BBC which is in H.264 is different from what I am proposing above with my camera? The difference is the container, H.264 can use a .TS or .MP4 container but it's the same codec. Granted, I don't know how to make a BR with my material, but just because I can't show someone how doesn't mean they should be devoid of the material I could offer. I see this as more of an issue of being poorly informed, closed minded, and dare I say laziness than about the integrity of the material here on the site. It's easier to not include the .MP4 container all together to weed out possible "cell phone" videos than to trust the members of the site or do a little bit of policing on material. If making it easier is the plan, force HD uploads to have full size screen shots or 10 second samples so that people who are interested in downloading can check it for themselves, then report if there is an issue. I realize HD torrents will be large, no one wants to waste time or bandwidth on something that is not what it claims to be, but to cut off a source of other material...well....

High Definition Transport Stream (.ts) is preferred format for straight digital captures of HD TV broadcasts.
TS is a container, not a format. DVD is a format.

Not permitted is rough not authored .m2ts file due it larger size than the transport stream (.ts) format.
Again, misinformation. An .m2ts is the same size as a .TS file, different container. You can directly take an .m2ts, correct it's characteristics to conform to the TS container, but the size difference is not significant. If it were significant going from one container to another, that would be a reencode which you have said you do not allow.

Yes, I did read the rules. For HD at this time you are only allowing -
1) HDTV captures of concerts such as Glastonbury, Rothbury 2008, etc to be seeded as they are without the need for structuring to BR
2) Audience HD captures, but only if presented in the BR recordable structure similar to DVD

I also will point out that part of my frustration with this tracker is the lack of communication. There was a Buffalo Tom DVD banned from here based on the fact that the source material was HD in a .MP4 container with the codec being H.264. I created this DVD and was quite proud of it, I was also miffed it was banned. I wrote to admins, mods, etc. several times about this trying to clarify that it was original HD material reencoded to DVD format. Very similar to a MPEG .TS file being encoded to DVD MPEG standard which, from what I can understand, is allowed here. I never received resolution on this despite several PMs and promises it would be discussed and resolved. I would very much like to seed more material here at TTD, I admit I don't seed much audio here any more, but would like a more appreciated atmosphere for HD material. I have not attempted to upload my audience HD shows anywhere, but feel this tracker would be best suited for it instead of Dime or others, but with the guidelines, I can not.

[pawel]

So, tell me how a cap of say Glastonbury from BBC which is in H.264 is different from what I am proposing above with my camera? The difference is the container, H.264 can use a .TS or .MP4 container but it's the same codec.
It's similar to MPEG case: DVD (VOB) format is permitted only.

TS is allowed temporary for TV captures only, until we have quality software to author a Blu-ray disc.

HD audience material has to be tested and uploaded in BD format only.

BTW:
1. Comparison of your 4 MB px camera with the equipment used by TV is a good joke :lol4:
2. Most HD cameras use .m2t container (= .m2ts).

Again, misinformation. An .m2ts is the same size as a .TS file, different container.
How it can be the same size using larger byte packets size? 192 vs 188 for .ts. Difference is not big but a few hundred MBs can be saved for an average concert. Also, we like to avoid transcoding .ts > m2ts as current tools are far from being perfect, and errors are possible.

[sullen]

BTW:
1. Comparison of your 4 MB px camera with the equipment used by TV is a good joke :lol4:
2. Most HD cameras use .m2t container (= .m2ts).


1. Apples and Oranges my friend. I was comparing containers and codecs, not bitrates, you seem to have missed that part.
2. Most, but not all.

Sorry about the TS / .m2t misinformation, I wasn't well versed in that department but knew the size change was minimal compared to the overall size of the original file.

[sullen]

Also, are all .m2ts files "HD lite" or do some cameras record full 1920x1080 resolution? I am only remotely familiar with some of the Sony cameras using tape that record to .m2ts, but the full resolution for the Sony cameras is an anamorphic 1440x1080 instead of the full 1920x1080.

[AAR.oner]

Also, are all .m2ts files "HD lite" or do some cameras record full 1920x1080 resolution? I am only remotely familiar with some of the Sony cameras using tape that record to .m2ts, but the full resolution for the Sony cameras is an anamorphic 1440x1080 instead of the full 1920x1080.

my understanding is .m2ts is sony's proprietary container that uses MPEG2 compression...similar to JVC's .tod format [also MPEG2 compression]

as for sony recording in 1920x1080, i don't believe any of their consumer-level cams do -- just 1440x1080 as you mentioned

[pawel]

^ all true except that Sony uses H.264 codec (AVCHD), also Panasonic and Canon. Not sure about JVC new models but the first series uses MPEG2 TS.

[bjrocks]

m2ts actually stands for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. (Very similar to .ts from OTA/Settop box captures). m2ts and mp4 are containers, and do not dictate a video compression format. Not all m2ts files are the same. i.e. not all m2ts contain video with the same CODEC.

Sony's (and most other's) TAPE based HD cams use "HDV" which is an MPEG-2 type CODEC (at 25MBPS) which is limited to 1440x1080. JVC's HD based cams use their own flavor of an MPEG-2 type codec (up to 30MBPS) Sony, Canon, and Panasonic's HDD and Flash based cameras use slightly different variants of the AVCHD codec in an MPEG-2 Container (m2ts). Some of these record 1920x1080 and some record 1440x1080. Sanyo uses their own MPEG-4 Based codec (similar to, but distictly different from AVCHD) in an MP4 container.

Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.

[bjrocks]

my understanding is .m2ts is sony's proprietary container that uses MPEG2 compression...similar to JVC's .tod format [also MPEG2 compression]
JVC's container is proprietary, Sony's is not.

[AAR.oner]

cheers for the detailed info! i knew i shoulda waited for some of the folks a little more up-to-speed on the current (dis)array of HD "formats" to reply :lol:

[KustMichaels]

All true .. just to add that all cam manufacturers use their own .m2t standard. Canon uses a different one for their tape based HD cams, for example. I was happy to see that PS3's and 360's take .m2t's, but only after certain firmware version upgrades.

But even if I could author a .m2t myself, how am I supposed to get those 2x15 GB to people, if there are no BR burners and 360 owners are screwed anyway?

The whole issue why BR is not taking off is this:
For DVD production the licencing fees where paid by the press shops, they guys who multiply your master. Such an open culture is not planned for BR Discs. Read the FAQ on the website of the Blue Ray Disc Association and you will see how imprecise they are. Read the ISAN contract and you will see that NOTHING is for free on the BR front. As soon as you take something public - even a dozen BR discs given away for free - you have to licence. An un-licenced, hence uncontrolled production is not on their radar.

Toshiba staded a million times they wish such an open end culture, but they lost. Rumor says that US-american law firms are there right now collecting data about un-licenced BR bootlegs.

Besides of all this, with BR you have new issues. Put the official DVD logo on a DVD with no AC3 audio track you have a brand fraud. Put the BD logo on ANY un-licenced product and you are screwed.

That's why I am saying just forget the whole Blue Ray thing. HD streams in a 8 MB/s H264 scream and that's about it. Why bother with Blue Ray if you could use even a 8 GB USB stick for a video vine? Why is it that Apple, Microsoft and Sony just ignore Blue Ray and instead vote for streaming and direct download? Remember how the BR drive was once the number one selling point of the PS3? I'd say we are far from that.

m2ts actually stands for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. (Very similar to .ts from OTA/Settop box captures). m2ts and mp4 are containers, and do not dictate a video compression format. Not all m2ts files are the same. i.e. not all m2ts contain video with the same CODEC.

Sony's (and most other's) TAPE based HD cams use "HDV" which is an MPEG-2 type CODEC (at 25MBPS) which is limited to 1440x1080. JVC's HD based cams use their own flavor of an MPEG-2 type codec (up to 30MBPS) Sony, Canon, and Panasonic's HDD and Flash based cameras use slightly different variants of the AVCHD codec in an MPEG-2 Container (m2ts). Some of these record 1920x1080 and some record 1440x1080. Sanyo uses their own MPEG-4 Based codec (similar to, but distictly different from AVCHD) in an MP4 container.

Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.

[sullen]

Getting the picture how complicated this is? It is VERY complicated.

I understand it is very complicated, but if the staff are as educated as yourself, why should audience source material be limited to full BR disc format? Audience sourced HD material is scarce, I have seen 1 Metallica show from a European date in full HD and 1 Tool show that I have not seen in HD but saw the DVD it was made from. I will admit that one of the problems with the Sanyo format is that you can't mux PCM audio into the stream, it has to be AAC, MP3, or MP2. I have been using Yamb to do this as I haven't found another program that can do it. Also, 1080i to DVD is an issue with most encoding programs so I have been sticking with 720p. If folks have doubts about the quality, I can upload a sample of both 720p and 1080i.

[AAR.oner]

sullen --

keep in mind that we are just now beginning to allow HD seeds here at TTD, and the requirements are still being discussed and ironed out amongst staff

HD broadcasts are a lot easier to draw-the-line as to what is and isn't allowed...consumer HD [audience cam footage] on the other hand has very little standards within the manufacturing industry, a lot of fluctuation between formats & codecs & bit rates, making the "line" a bit tougher to figure out

please bear with us as we iron everything out :thumbsup

[pawel]

I understand it is very complicated, but if the staff are as educated as yourself, why should audience source material be limited to full BR disc format?
If you are so smart then mux your fantastic material to BD and seed here, or go to other torrent sites where the staff is more educated and accepts whatever container and quality you like.

[sullen]

If you are so smart then mux your fantastic material to BD and seed here, or go to other torrent sites where the staff is more educated and accepts whatever container and quality you like.

Wow, we are getting a bit pissy aren't we... I never claimed to be "smart", I simply stood up for a different perspetive that appears to have been neglected. I pointed out issues with the wording of the guidelines, noting that some things were stated as "formats" when they were containers. That is not being "smart", that is being accurate, something I pride myself on and I would hope you would too instead of resorting to insults. Not to mention you (meaning the staff) asked for opinions. I thought the one person with all the information on HD formats was a staff since they have no ratio at all, or they were at least a VIP with some sort of pull in the system. I am not educated on the process to mux my video into a BR disc, I have no reason to because I don't own a BR burner. I have a HTPC so simply muxing in the audio to the original file works fine for me. I bet money if you put up a poll you would find substantially more people have HTPCs than BR burners. BR is a waste of time and coin for me, I can play all my HD content on my HTPC off of an external hard drive. If you want to run off members with insults and name calling, be my guest but I would ask that you at least appear to respect other people's opinions on the subject.

@AAR.oner
I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions. I appreciate this tracker and what it provides to the trading community, especially the strict policies that lend to integity of the source material.

[direwolf-pgh]

you've made some really good points sullen. I appreciate reading about your experience taping and working with HD. thanks.

[saltman]

I also appreciate everyone's opinions as we work through these issues. Please believe that TTD strives for the best even in an ever-changing landscape.

Everyone's input will lead to a greater good. Keep the comments coming.

[sullen]

I know what this thread needs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[direwolf-pgh]

hmmm .. I was thinking more..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

(sorry its not HD :wave:)

[Silver Stallion DVDs]

I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions.

I feel your frustration.

I tried having a discussion with one of the mods here about video and he simply wouldn't do it. After a couple of unanswered PMs, I gave up.

Fortunately, TTD isn't the only game in town.

[amfglobal]

If my 2cents matters I have taped some audience concerts in HD and I agree what Sullen has to say. I personally don't have a Blue Ray player but since I can edit the original HD files (in my case .m2t from a Canon HD Cam) and save them as the exact HD file which mine happens to have resolution of 1440x1080 and boom no quality loss. They can be played directly on the computer or for me on my PS3. I think limiting HD material especially on a site like this to only BD guidelines is a little strict. Not everyone has a Blue Ray burner and until they come down in price I don't see myself getting one. I think under permitted file formats this site shouldn't be so strict. Lets face it majority of the uploads in HD on this site will be transfered from TV..with that in mind what about the actual video tapers that are taping with HD camcorders and have footage in other formats?

If my opinion matters this rule needs to change.Not permitted is rough not authored .m2ts file due it larger size than the transport stream (.ts) format.

On another note, I have some HD footage from a concert I taped but since I don't have a Blue Ray burner I can't burn the whole show for me to watch it on TV. So what I do is make DVD-Data discs of the .m2t files (which might contain a couple of them, not just one big one) and my PS3 plays them fine in HD. I know I'm not the only one doing this and then again I know not everyone has a PS3.

[pawel]

(sorry its not HD :wave:)
it's mp4 :lol4:

[pawel]

amfglobal, there are free PC tools which may just add a few bytes to m2ts and create BD structure, including chapters and subtitles: tsMuxer (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134104), TSRemux (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125447), BD Edit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125903). Check also eac3to (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125966) which is great for demuxing a HD source.

Sorry, I'm not aware of similar Mac freebies.

Interesting discussion and guides you may find at doom (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=136361) and videohelp (http://forum.videohelp.com/authoring-blu-ray-f48.html) forum.

[AAR.oner]

@AAR.oner
I am patient, but I also don't want other opinions to be neglected if no one is a voice for those opinions. I appreciate this tracker and what it provides to the trading community, especially the strict policies that lend to integity of the source material.

i fully agree, and also fully agree that yer opinion should be voiced on this matter...HD seeds are a "new frontier" for us here, and with the complexity of the current technology, the more intelligent voices we have discussing the better




for everyone interested, i have posted a poll here in Technobabble re: how you would be watching an HD seed [i.e Blu-ray, Comp-to-TV stream, etc]...if you wouldn't mind taking a moment to vote, i think it might be helpful:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64245

[sullen]

hmmm .. I was thinking more..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

(sorry its not HD :wave:)


Nice!

[KustMichaels]

and 1 Tool show that I have not seen in HD but saw the DVD it was made from.

Cool, guess who that one was?

I mean it's a shame, HD is truely worth the hassle. Sure broadcast HD is in another dimension, but amateur HD can do it, too. Tool 08/12/2007 in HD is cool, RATM @ Rock im Park 08 in HD is bloody awesome synched with DaGobert's audio.

amfglobal, there are free PC tools which may just add a few bytes to m2ts and create BD structure, including chapters and subtitles: tsMuxer (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134104), TSRemux (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125447), BD Edit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125903). Check also eac3to (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125966) which is great for demuxing a HD source.

Sorry, I'm not aware of similar Mac freebies.

Interesting discussion and guides you may find at doom (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=136361) and videohelp (http://forum.videohelp.com/authoring-blu-ray-f48.html) forum.

I've got 7-8 audience shot videos on my hard disc and no way to distribute them in HD. The only encoding app on the Mac that converts the .m2t to x264 and such is VisualHub. I own an older version and the x264 quality is not that great. The results look not much better then the SD DVD scaled up.

Right now the standard Mac app for encoding is MainConcepts encoder, I do not own that one and it only takes QuickTime files, so I had to convert the .m2t streams up to HD MotionJPEG@75% - that should be 80 GB, maybe 120 GB per show.
On the other hand Apple's Compressor produces HD Mpeg2, but no authoring. Newer versions of Comprossor get you HD H264, but I heard the quality sucks.

I once took the HD footage of Tool's "Forty Six & Two" of 08/12/2007, converted it up to MotionJPEG and converted it to DivX 6, because they offered the encoder for free once. Result was OK, but I guess PlayStation3 and 360 owners don't like those.

In either case I still had to sync the result with some AAC or AC3 audio, and I see no tool on the Mac that would do that conveniently.

What really drives me nuts is that Apple offers free HD cutting but says nothing about distribution. You want your folks to watch the HD cut? Stream it back to your cam! Want others to watch the HD cut? *Pay* for Apple's "me" website service and upload an QuickTime encoded HD video there (http://gallery.me.com/emily_parker#100598). I guess the max resolution there is 720p, and I am not even sure about that one. What they are really talking about is uploading stuff to YouTube and your iPhone.

Then there's Adobes Encore CS3, which I don't own either. I heard it sucks, but people say Encore CS4 for Mac is far better. Then you have Roxio's author&burn stuff, but I did not check on those.
But those would only get you a BR DVD which puts you in the licencing hassle. In the past people wrote e-mails to the BR Association stating their case: a) BRD producer owns the material b) low quantity BRD production c) free give away. BRA says no fees, but now try to make the case for stealth video recordings.

[saltman]

But those would only get you a BR DVD which puts you in the licencing hassle. In the past people wrote e-mails to the BR Association stating their case: a) BRD producer owns the material b) low quantity BRD production c) free give away. BRA says no fees, but now try to make the case for stealth video recordings.Please explain the licensing issues of Bluray and how that relates to stealth video recordings that are not for profit. or link me and I'll read it.

[AAR.oner]

Right now the standard Mac app for encoding is MainConcepts encoder, I do not own that one and it only takes QuickTime files, so I had to convert the .m2t streams up to HD MotionJPEG@75% - that should be 80 GB, maybe 120 GB per show.
On the other hand Apple's Compressor produces HD Mpeg2, but no authoring. Newer versions of Comprossor get you HD H264, but I heard the quality sucks.

note: the only HD footage i work with is recorded to tape, so i've never worked with .m2ts/.mod/.tod/etc, but i thought for sure Sorenson Squeeze could handle what yer tryin to do

also, i think Handbrake accepts .m2ts files, but i'm not positive...i've heard that the newest version has an h.264 encoder that is damn good, especially considering its freeware ;)

Compressor is lacking in just about everything except SD DVD encoding [and its quality is arguable at times]...either Apple is gonna have to make some major revisions, or that program will cease to be used by anyone in the profession

[pawel]

I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac ;)

[AAR.oner]

I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac ;)

i've heard the same...dunno when that release date is tho

[KustMichaels]

Please explain the licensing issues of Bluray and how that relates to stealth video recordings that are not for profit. or link me and I'll read it.

That would take a while to explain, I will come back later.

Here is one FAQ (http://www.blu-raydisc.info/faq.php), here is another. (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11392) A quote that is often tossed around is this:

All those authoring houses intending to purchase an “off-rack” tool and engage in simple authoring task only, may opt not to obtain a Commercial Audiovisual Content License.

Which would theoretically allow what we are up to. I do no BR authoring yet and I am no lawyer, all I know is from reading freelance producer webboards. The DVDA (DVD Association) *off the record* says that all puclic documents of the BRDA are not obligatory. Fact is that the BRDA only considers cases where the author owns the material, which is somewhat dubious about stealth recordings.

Another matter is throwing the BR logo on a package, like the guys over at bootlegcoverart.com would do, that can't be legal, I'd say watch out.

Another matter is HDCP and AACS. Afair most if not all HD TV streams have the HDCP flag enabled. I don't know if by burning a BRD the flag gets removed. Fact is that most stand alone player manufacturers respect the HDCP flag to get their products approved. Thankfully HDCP is coming slowly, afair it was 2015 where manufacturers are not longer allowed to produce players with analog = no copy protection signals.

note: the only HD footage i work with is recorded to tape, so i've never worked with .m2ts/.mod/.tod/etc, but i thought for sure Sorenson Squeeze could handle what yer tryin to do

Nah, I don't know, I heard only bad things about Squeeze, encoding is average, it costs money and it does not take HV20 streams directly.

also, i think Handbrake accepts .m2ts files, but i'm not positive...i've heard that the newest version has an h.264 encoder that is damn good, especially considering its freeware ;)

I love Handbrake for DVD ripping, and I was happy to see HB recognizing the HV20 streams, but no encoding. Forum says it's not a considered feature.

I red somewhere that next release of Apple's DVD Studio Pro will include BD. If it is as good as SD version then... eh.. I wish I have a Mac ;)

Rumor said Apple would do that for the last revision but they didn't. I am somewhat dubious Apple wants BR authoring in the hands of their customers, even if the market is there. They are on the BR board, but they did not much to draw attention. Maybe they are still trying to figure the legal situation as we do. Rumor has it Apple is coming in early 2009 with BR burners, but then they need new software, too. It's crazy seeing Apple partnering with RED and talking about HD since 2005, but no real solution for low end users by 2008?

Rumor also says that Apple might even leave the Mac video market to Adobe, but I doubt that. However, Adobe is there with CS3 and CS4 now, but they are not obliged to give customers legal advice.Workflow is FCP -> Compressor -> Encore CS4 -> Toast9+Plugin. I wonder what fidelity can be reached by that for menus for example. People say you can only use Roxio's design templates, and those suck.
I do not own the latter two apps and don't plan to.

Let's also not forget that all the Java code on BR discs right now is alpha-ish beta 0.3 software. I wonder what progress on that front means for us.

I'd love to look at FFmpegX/mencoder which I guess is the highest quality x264 encoding on the Mac right now - and it's free. But that's rocket science I don't have the time for.

[greatoak]

I would like to add a comment.

I am not sure that targetting a medium (BR in that case) is a good idea.

Currently we are getting shows on DVD. Whatever the source is, the person who wants to share it has to make a DVD. First, it is either PAL or NTSC. Secondly, they generally limit the size to 4Gb to use only one single layer writable DVD : we are getting downgraded shows.

Even though we do not have such limits currently with BR it will happen someday.

I think that we mostly agree that FLAC is good format for audio.
We would need such a format for video streams so that we could get rid of both DVDs and BRs.

The DVD player I am currenly using owns a USB port. I can currently plug a 8Gb usb key and watch a video stream or a DVD structure (not good though).
Internet Boxes are able to play video streams right on the TV or check the AppleTV!

Therefore, we should not care about media, but the file format.

[pawel]

Greatoak, BR uses m2ts container. A playable disc needs correct folder structure + leading / control sequences which can be added even by some freewares, at least there are PC tools. It gets complicated as far as more advanced authoring is concerned - interactive menus. BR will use special Java engine of which, if I'm right, specification is not free / public. As Kust wrote above, industry wants to control everything, and it's not happy to pass know how to the consumer level as it's with DVD format.

[greatoak]

Pawel... I far as I understand, you are going in the same direction as I am... BR is not a good choice.
Is my understanding correct? :)

[pawel]

^ Yes, but it doesn't mean that I like to have any type of container to be the carrier. MP4 and MKV are good, and compact but they may contain anything, and this may cause problems for the site like TTD.

[direwolf-pgh]

help me understand why MP4 and MKV (and perhaps other containers) might cause issues.
If a factual HD FPS/bitrate is given in the info.. I mean.. who, what, why would someone think they could pass it off as HD video when its .. say divx..

I mean, it seems it would 'be an instant bust' saying something is one thing - when its low quality compressed video.
also, the trading community is very good at dealing with 'these people' when it happens :lol: why worry.

you have to have failth in the users who share out - and this early in the game.. its not going to be that many people anyway.
As time moves on, the HD video camera format will come together to a standardization.
Its just early in the game now.. so the question is more..what makes it easiest for the traders to trade what they have ?

am i reading correctly that mac users dont have BR author software yet ?! thats blows my mind.

[sullen]

Chew on this....Right Click and Save As....

http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/DCFC-IWillFollowYouIntoTheDark-1080i.mp4

It's 288mb for 3min 17sec.
Suggested player is MPC as you can change the audio from the default synced external audio or the camera audio.

[direwolf-pgh]

you should post a recommended player/codec link with this please ^^

MPC = (easily googled as) Media Player Classic :lol: and that just aint gonna do it for folks.

12258/kbps 1081i - looking good

[pawel]

help me understand why MP4 and MKV (and perhaps other containers) might cause issues.
* MP4 container: no support for AC3 and PCM at all; AAC, MP2 / MP3 are not compatible with BD thus require re-encoding. AAC is much better than AC3 imo, however, transcoding is lossy like the codec. Video muxed to mp4 very often has incorrect aspect ratio flag (Yamb, mp4UI), whatever setting is used. I have no clue about Mac tools.

* Matroska: no issues, great container, except that there are no standalone players.

[ffooky]

* Matroska: no issues, great container, except that there are no standalone players.
If I had an HD ready TV I'd rather have one of these (http://networkedmediatank.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#How_many_NMT_players_are_out_there_in_the_market_right_now.3F) than a BluRay player any day, especially the A-110 (http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/index.php?pluginoption=catalog&task=info&item_id=6&main_id=0&category_id=). Very nice indeed.

[pawel]

http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/DCFC-IWillFollowYouIntoTheDark-1080i.mp4

VLC and MPC crashed - I use Haali Media Spliter (Matroska); tsMuxer (mux to ts or m2ts for BD): SPS picture order 2 not supported :hmm: ; Canopus Pro Coder may convert it to SD.

[sullen]

How do I find out what is being used eactly to decode the file? Also, did it not play the file, crash, or what? MPC is the only program that will play my 1080i files, all other programs crash. I have Nero 7 Ultra 7, and PowerDVD 7.2along with Matrostoska installed. I have no preference set in MPC for decoding this file. It also takes at least a dual core processor or a single core with a video card that has a good GPU itself. I may have said that wrong, because I am rather hardware illiterate.

As for the file being "invalid" I am not sure what is up with that one. I used that program to check out the original files out of the camera, those were "invalid" as well. I have no idea what that program is looking for in terms of being "valid". I have

http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/DCFC.JPG

Here are the stats spit out by SUPER:

General #0
Complete name : E:\DCFC - I Will Follow You Into the Dark - 1080i.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format/Info : ISO 14496-1 Base Media
Format/Family : MPEG-4
File size : 289 MiB
PlayTime : 3mn 17s
Bit rate : 12.3 Mbps
StreamSize/String : 127 KiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:37
Tagged date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:37

Video #0
Codec : AVC
Codec/Family : AVC
Codec/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Codec profile : [email protected]
Codec settings, CABAC : No
Codec_Settings_RefFrames : 2
PlayTime : 3mn 17s
Bit rate mode : VBR
Bit rate : 12.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 13.7 Mbps
Width : 1920 pixels
Height : 1080 pixels
Display Aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate mode : CFR
Frame rate : 59.940 fps
Chroma : 4:2:0
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.097
StreamSize/String : 282 MiB
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2008-06-05 02:02:33
Tagged date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:50

Audio #0
Codec : MPEG-1 Audio
Codec/Family : MPEG-A
PlayTime : 3mn 17s
Bit rate mode : VBR
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 134 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize/String : 3.01 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:50
Tagged date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:50

Audio #1
Codec : AAC LC
Codec/Family : AAC
Codec/Info : AAC Low Complexity
PlayTime : 3mn 17s
Bit rate mode : VBR
Bit rate : 127 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 130 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize/String : 3.00 MiB
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:50
Tagged date : UTC 2008-06-04 15:28:50

[pawel]

If you installed software for your camera it could add a codec which supports the container better than Matroska. Usually Haali plays anything, so I don't know what may cause the error.

You can check installed codecs with GSpot: Tables > Video Codecs. I have Microsoft, and ~ISOMP4 (isom: MP4 Base Media v1 ) - I have no idea what is it :hmm: Anyway, Haali takes control over the container when played by MPC.

Edit: from the icon of the file properties I see that you decoder is part of Quicktime. If i try to open the file in it I get [I]Error: -50 an unknown error occured. Doh... I wish to be more friendly ;)

[ffooky]

Sullen, FWIW Plex (http://elan.plexapp.com/) can play your file so I'm guessing that XBMC (http://xbmc.org/) could also handle it.

[sullen]

If you installed software for your camera it could add a codec which supports the container better than Matroska. Usually Haali plays anything, so I don't know what may cause the error.

You can check installed codecs with GSpot: Tables > Video Codecs. I have Microsoft, and ~ISOMP4 (isom: MP4 Base Media v1 ) - I have no idea what is it :hmm: Anyway, Haali takes control over the container when played by MPC.

Edit: from the icon of the file properties I see that you decoder is part of Quicktime. If i try to open the file in it I get [I]Error: -50 an unknown error occured. Doh... I wish to be more friendly ;)

Let me correct myself, when I play it with MPC it is using Haali as you said. As of the Quicktime Icon, that was just associated with the file last time I installed Quicktime. I don't like Quicktime, but it automatically associated the .MP4 extension to the Quicktime player, it has nothing to do with how the file is being played.

I figured it out, it's using the Cyberlink H.264/AVC Decoder (PDVD 7.x). I found it under Play > Filters.

[KustMichaels]

Chew on this....Right Click and Save As....

http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/DCFC-IWillFollowYouIntoTheDark-1080i.mp4

It's 288mb for 3min 17sec.
Suggested player is MPC as you can change the audio from the default synced external audio or the camera audio.

On the Mac, QuickTime 7.1 and VLC8 do not play this file :D

[pawel]

How Matroska container works on Mac?

[ffooky]

How Matroska container works on Mac?
With QuickTime and Perian: Pretty spotty and takes a long time to prepare to actually play, if indeed a file will.

VLC O.8.6 was pretty good most of the time but the OS X release of 0.9.2 has been very buggy and 0.9.3 can't come quickly enough.

Plex/OSXBMC handle MKV extremely well. UI takes a lot of getting used to and there are stability issues but the file handling itself is excellent.

[jrvalentine]

Are there HD shows up now on TTD? If so, how do you find them? Please excuse my ignorance.

[pawel]

^ Not yet. There are videos sourced from HD but transcoded to DVD.

[direwolf-pgh]

:bump:

does anyone here have experience streaming HD content via a HDMI (out) Video Card direct to their HDTV ??

I'm looking at video cards for this task & reading conflicting/confusing information. solid recommendations needed. thanks

[pawel]

Any card that is able to output full HD resolution (1920x1080p) (http://www.google.com/search?hl=pl&q=graphic+card+1080p).

[direwolf-pgh]

allow me to rephase the question:

has anyone tried any of the new HDMI video cards that are HDCP compliant.

they offer 1080p + 5.1 audio..etc..etc.

[saltman]

I've "streamed" blu-rays to my 24" monitor that is hdcp compliant via hdmi (dvi also fwiw). That's the same thing right? My card is pretty cheap and I haven't noticed any issues. Never to a TV yet but I can't imagine it would be an issue. What is the conflicting info. you are seeing? Are you questioning whether it is worth having an HD TV without HDCP DVI?

[direwolf-pgh]

I've "streamed" blu-rays to my 24" monitor that is hdcp compliant via hdmi (dvi also fwiw). That's the same thing right? My card is pretty cheap and I haven't noticed any issues. Never to a TV yet but I can't imagine it would be an issue. What is the conflicting info. you are seeing? Are you questioning whether it is worth having an HD TV without HDCP DVI?
I was curious if anyone could recommend (make/model) a 'tested out' HDMI (out) video card.
I've read that some were choppy in blu ray playback - rejected by the HDCP..etc..etc.
a video card HDMI 1.3 compliant connection is what I'm after/curious about. (as an alternative to a blu ray/upscale standalone player)

[pawel]

I tested today TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4 (http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/taw4.html) with the following clips (5 minutes each):
* AVCHD (.m2ts) from Sony HDR-SR7E camera
* H264 1920x1080 25fps / AC3 2.0 448 kbps DVB-S satellite stream from Astra HD channel
* H264 1280x720 25fps / MP2 384 kbps DVB-S satellite stream from Arte HD channel
* MPEG2 HD 720x576 25fps (10.7 Mbps) / MP2 384 kbps DVB-S satellite stream from Hungarian M2 channel

:thumbsup Works OK with .ts and .m2ts containers containing MPEG2 HD and/or H264 video - seems that it has built-in AVCHD reader.

:down: Cannot open demuxed .h264 file. Kinda strange. Maybe it depends on installed codecs - I have Haali Media Splitter which works great with any other software.

:down: May output BR video in MPEG2 HD format only, thus any H264 is converted.

:down::down::down: In default audio setting ("Automatic", no conversion) source audio AC3 448 kbps from m2ts/ts container is converted to AC3 224 kbps (sic!). Dialog normalization is set to -31 db which is very low, and audio bandwidth is limitted to 18 kHz.
Of course any MP2 audio has to be converted to AC3 or PCM to be compatible with BR standard.

:thumbsup Conversion time from H264 to MPEG2 HD is good: it took 11 minutes to convert 5 min. clip (Intel Core 2 Duo 6400).

:thumbsup MPEG2 HD renders to BR without any (partial) conversion, at least for the file I had.

:thumbsup Menu design, including pop-up, is identical to DVD one, known from previous versions of the program. Rendering quality is very good.

So, for any H264 in .ts/m2ts source TDA4 should be avoided like a plague, especially for music videos as it converts audio. Perhaps it can be avoided if audio is demuxed and imported to TDA4 separately.

TDA4 has new rendering preview window which shows what frames are being converted only. Preview for standard definition DVB-S captures shows that a lot, even the source is fully compatible with DVD standard (GOP structure, and bitrate) :disbelief

[pawel]

PS3 Media Server (http://code.google.com/p/ps3mediaserver/) is a DLNA compliant Upnp Media Server for the PS3, written in Java, with the purpose of streaming or transcoding any kind of media files, with minimum configuration. It's backed up with the powerful Mplayer/FFmpeg packages. All formats PS3 natively supports: MP3/WMA, JPG/PNG/GIF/TIFF, and all kind of videos (AVI, MP4, TS, M2TS, MPEG) the ps3 is willing to play. You can choose with a virtual folder system your audio/subtitle language on the PS3! Freeware.

[jabulon]

Interesting thread this.

[doctorzap]

what about my Nikon s9100 it is 1080 p .mov files /

are they allowed ?

[direwolf-pgh]

good question. I know many tv shows use handheld HD cameras today.

[AAR.oner]

the problem with consumer-level dslr's & video is that there are so many quality factors involved that, for us, creating a simple "rule" is impossible -- there's as many factors as there are camera models

i'm not familiar with this camera model, and i leave all judgements up to the video mods, but theoretically if your shooting at 1080p and use a high-quality intermediary codec like ProRes 422 for your editing, i don't see why it wouldn't be allowed...but thats just my personal opinion, not TTD Rules

[vladsmythe]

I put HD files that I download on a portable hard drive and play it on TV with this: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330
USB in - HDMI out. It also works wirelessly to an existing network.
This device plays every media format that I have thrown at it, with the exception of SHN files, which I haven't tried yet.

[Homebrew101]

I put HD files that I download on a portable hard drive and play it on TV with this: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330
USB in - HDMI out. It also works wirelessly to an existing network.
This device plays every media format that I have thrown at it, with the exception of SHN files, which I haven't tried yet.

so can that play DVD files I download from here withouthaving to change anything? just point it to the VIDEO_TS folder of the VOB files within it?


Edit: I see one model can't play both NTSC and PAL

[vladsmythe]

I think you can do it that way, but not sure. I know it works 'cause I tried it. You might have to open the VIDEO_TS folder and start the video by selecting VOB 01. Mine plays both PAL and NTSC. I tested it by watching Jazz vids from PAL sources.

[doctorzap]

the problem with consumer-level dslr's & video is that there are so many quality factors involved that, for us, creating a simple "rule" is impossible -- there's as many factors as there are camera models

i'm not familiar with this camera model, and i leave all judgements up to the video mods, but theoretically if your shooting at 1080p and use a high-quality intermediary codec like ProRes 422 for your editing, i don't see why it wouldn't be allowed...but thats just my personal opinion, not TTD Rules



I think with sony vegas you can edit mov files directly if you have quicktime installed ?

I will be shooting some video soon so hopefully this can be resolved

also shooting with an asus tf700t that also has a great lens and 1080 p !