Can I make a case for AIFF files in the Audio Torrent Forum?

[GRC]

From my analogue sources, I can make what Alesis calls a 'CD24' on the Masterlink ML9600 - a CD with 24-bit, 96kHz files, stored in AIFF format.

The seeding policy for audio requires that the files be flac, shn or ape. I tried Audacity to convert AIFF to FLAC, but failed. From my point of view, it would be so much easier to merely upload the AIFF files......

Other than the policy, is there any reason why AIFFs couldn't be torrented?

[pawel]

Other than the policy, is there any reason why AIFFs couldn't be torrented?
size

[direwolf-pgh]

some banter on this 'CD24' format
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=22395

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/1999/ML9600.html

AIFF is to Apple as WAV is to PC ..that product seems more a computer reading/writing standard data file CD's

hook your PC up to your stereo with a $100 sound card & play all the 96/24 files you wish
-cause once you burn a 'CD24' disc..its not playing back in any other device other than a computer.

http://www.nextag.com/ALESIS-MasterLink-ML9600-Master-56943509/prices-html.. $800 - pass.

[paddington]

AIFF = uncompressed digital audio like WAV. If there are some new flavors, it is still not ubiquitous, like FLAC.

Also, most people can't do anything with it. You could upload it, but hardly anyone would get anything out of it. Especially at 24bit, it's going to be rather useless since everyone's devices (CD players, iPods, etc) play 16bit audio.

Yes, there are exceptions, no they aren't common. The goal here is for as many people as possible to be able to enjoy the things that are offered here and FLAC>WAV>BURN or FLAC>WAV>MP3 is what nearly everyone can do, with either MACs or with PCs.

I don't really have an objection to AIFF files being shared here, personally, but I think the torrent would need to state exactly what they are and what has to be done to burn to a CD to play in a common player - as that is our standard end-game goal, here. I think you'll find that most people won't go through the trouble to convert it to something they can use.

[roomful]

All you need to convert .aiff to FLAC in Windows is Foobar2000 and FLAC v1.2.0 or newer (which can be found in TLH). :D

Uninstall Foobar2000 and TLH, then install the latest versions of Foobar2000 and Trader's Little Helper.
http://www.foobar2000.org/
http://tlh.easytree.org/

Drag your .aiff files into Foobar2000, select all, then right click > convert > convert to > FLAC (you can adjust the level with the '...' button > save. Done! The first time you do this Foobar may ask you for the location of the flac.exe file, it's usually in C:\Program Files > Trader's Little Helper > CmdlineApps.

I just tested it. I had a 24/96 FLAC file > dragged into Foobar2000 > converted to .aiff. Then I dragged the .aiff into Foobar2000 > converted back to FLAC > saved to a different location. The FLAC fingerprints matched!

[roomful]

The only thing is, if you do a lot of transfers @ 24/96, it's going to eat up a LOT of CD-Rs and burning time. Stereo 24/96 is 34.56 MB/minute, or a little more than 20 minutes of audio per CD-R. One hour show= minimum 3 CD-Rs, likely 4 depending on song tracking.

Another option: you could get a bit accurate sound card, like an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or something, and Soundforge or the free prog CD-Wave (audio editing software to record the signal), and digitally transfer from the Alesis to your comp via a coax cable, and save on media costs and burning time, and still use the AD converters of the Alesis for analog transfers.

[pawel]

You forgot to mention DVD-A, lol

[GRC]

You forgot to mention DVD-A, lol

Who forgot?

[GRC]

Other than the policy, is there any reason why AIFFs couldn't be torrented?
size

...and the comparative size between a 24-bit 96kHz AIFF and a FLAC derived from it would be....?

Regards, Graham

[paddington]

.. about the same as the comparative size between a 24-bit 96kHz WAV file and a FLAC derived from it.

We don't allow WAV because they are too big. They must be FLAC'd. Some people can make use of both WAVs & AIFF files for burning to disc. Most can't and need the PCM audio data to have the WAV headers to work with their software.

What is your chief reason for wanting to distribute PCM audio data with AIFF headers instead of WAV headers, when more people can make use of the WAV format?

[GRC]

some banter on this 'CD24' format
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=22395

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/1999/ML9600.html

AIFF is to Apple as WAV is to PC ..that product seems more a computer reading/writing standard data file CD's

hook your PC up to your stereo with a $100 sound card & play all the 96/24 files you wish
-cause once you burn a 'CD24' disc..its not playing back in any other device other than a computer.

http://www.nextag.com/ALESIS-MasterLink-ML9600-Master-56943509/prices-html.. $800 - pass.

They'll play back on the Masterlink as well as a computer.

The reason I ask is that some people are asking me in PMs for 24-bit copies of some of my torrents - so they apparently have a use for them, whatever it might be.

800 bucks for a Masterlink in the US equates to about 400 UK pounds - which in my book is a BARGAIN - I paid 699 UK pounds for mine a couple of years ago. If I could get one over here for that money I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

It's not about ME 'hooking the PC up to the stereo' and playing the 24-bits here, as I can just plug the Masterlink into the stereo and play them on that - it's about how to get them to other people who are asking for them; I can make 16-bit, 44.1kHz torrents easily, but Audacity doesn't want to co-operate with making 24-bit flacs, and ideally I'd like to shortcut the process and get the AIFFs direct to the people who ask for them.

At the end of the day, I could burn the CD24s and mail them out, but if I can do it more efficiently by torrenting them................

Regards, Graham

[GRC]

The only thing is, if you do a lot of transfers @ 24/96, it's going to eat up a LOT of CD-Rs and burning time. Stereo 24/96 is 34.56 MB/minute, or a little more than 20 minutes of audio per CD-R. One hour show= minimum 3 CD-Rs, likely 4 depending on song tracking.

Another option: you could get a bit accurate sound card, like an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or something, and Soundforge or the free prog CD-Wave (audio editing software to record the signal), and digitally transfer from the Alesis to your comp via a coax cable, and save on media costs and burning time, and still use the AD converters of the Alesis for analog transfers.

Tell me about it - I archived a few shows to 24-bit a while back, and it was EATING CDs.

If I'm going to make a 24-bit transfer for torrenting, I'll want to keep an archive copy for myself, and that means burning it to CD to put on the shelf.

Regards, Graham

[paddington]

I can make 16-bit, 44.1kHz torrents easily, but Audacity doesn't want to co-operate with making 24-bit flacs, and ideally I'd like to shortcut the process and get the AIFFs direct to the people who ask for them.

At the end of the day, I could burn the CD24s and mail them out, but if I can do it more efficiently by torrenting them................

Regards, Graham


We allow for 24bit audio in Flac files. Why not try FLAC fontend to encode them and, do that to distribute, so more people can benefit?

[GRC]

What is your chief reason for wanting to distribute PCM audio data with AIFF headers instead of WAV headers, when more people can make use of the WAV format?

Some folks are asking for them, and I'm looking for a way to supply them. The most direct way seemed to be to get the AIFF file to them, since that's what comes directly out of the Masterlink, and which is written to the CD24.

Regards, Graham

[roomful]

The only thing is, if you do a lot of transfers @ 24/96, it's going to eat up a LOT of CD-Rs and burning time. Stereo 24/96 is 34.56 MB/minute, or a little more than 20 minutes of audio per CD-R. One hour show= minimum 3 CD-Rs, likely 4 depending on song tracking.

Another option: you could get a bit accurate sound card, like an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or something, and Soundforge or the free prog CD-Wave (audio editing software to record the signal), and digitally transfer from the Alesis to your comp via a coax cable, and save on media costs and burning time, and still use the AD converters of the Alesis for analog transfers.

Tell me about it - I archived a few shows to 24-bit a while back, and it was EATING CDs.

If I'm going to make a 24-bit transfer for torrenting, I'll want to keep an archive copy for myself, and that means burning it to CD to put on the shelf.

Regards, Graham

You could still archive them to disc using the bolded method. Transfer > track > compress to FLAC & write text file > torrent & archive. I use DVD+R so I can fit lots of shows on one disc in FLAC format. It's much more efficient than burning data CD-Rs. A lot less time spent burning, and all the shows are losslessly compressed.

Archiving uncompressed WAVs or AIFFs to CD-R is about the most inefficient way to archive IMO, no offense.

[roomful]

We allow for 24bit audio in Flac files. Why not try FLAC fontend to encode them and, do that to distribute, so more people can benefit?

FLAC Frontend can't handle AIFFs, they must be in WAV format.



GRC, try the foobar2000 method described above to convert AIFF to FLAC. It's painless, free, simple, and more importantly, it works! It's a lot less painless than dealing with Audacity, because it's just a simple conversion, there are no sample rate or bit depth boxes to check.

[GRC]

Tell me about it - I archived a few shows to 24-bit a while back, and it was EATING CDs.

If I'm going to make a 24-bit transfer for torrenting, I'll want to keep an archive copy for myself, and that means burning it to CD to put on the shelf.

Regards, Graham

You could still archive them to disc using the bolded method. Transfer > track > compress to FLAC & write text file > torrent & archive. I use DVD+R so I can fit lots of shows on one disc in FLAC format. It's much more efficient than burning data CD-Rs. A lot less time spent burning, and all the shows are losslessly compressed.

Archiving uncompressed WAVs or AIFFs to CD-R is about the most inefficient way to archive IMO, no offense.

None taken, but your method requires a soundcard with digital input, and a PC with a DVD burner, neither of which I have at present, and they're not on the shopping list.

The AIFFs are/were in the Masterlink (on the HDD), and so is the CD drive, so that's where they went.

Regards, Graham

[direwolf-pgh]

They'll play back on the Masterlink as well as a computer.

The reason I ask is that some people are asking me in PMs for 24-bit copies of some of my torrents - so they apparently have a use for them, whatever it might be.

800 bucks for a Masterlink in the US equates to about 400 UK pounds - which in my book is a BARGAIN - I paid 699 UK pounds for mine a couple of years ago. If I could get one over here for that money I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

It's not about ME 'hooking the PC up to the stereo' and playing the 24-bits here, as I can just plug the Masterlink into the stereo and play them on that - it's about how to get them to other people who are asking for them; I can make 16-bit, 44.1kHz torrents easily, but Audacity doesn't want to co-operate with making 24-bit flacs, and ideally I'd like to shortcut the process and get the AIFFs direct to the people who ask for them.

At the end of the day, I could burn the CD24s and mail them out, but if I can do it more efficiently by torrenting them................

Regards, Grahamif that piece of equipment works for you - thats great.

After reading all these posts, I'm not sure why/how you feel getting AIFF files out of this masterlink system is so difficult.
AIFF file format has been around forever..its not proprietary.. its a common standard. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFF)

your system burns AIFF to small capacity CD's
burn out all the data from the masterlink internal hard drive (i read its a 4GB hard drive).
now you have several 96/24 DATA audio discs (in AIFF format)
put the DATA discs in your computer & transfer.
use Foobar2000 to convert/compress to FLAC > seed out your torrent.

is this not clear ?

regards,
me

[paddington]

FLAC Frontend can't handle AIFFs, they must be in WAV format.. :lol4: I know that.. I assumed he needed to use a better encoder than audacity since it wasn't working for 24 bit...

AIFF can be converted to WAV with very little trouble, since it's nearly the same thing. Most people won't take the time to do it, but I'm sure Grahanm could. Then he could use the more standard encoder to get better results, was my point.

[GRC]

They'll play back on the Masterlink as well as a computer.

The reason I ask is that some people are asking me in PMs for 24-bit copies of some of my torrents - so they apparently have a use for them, whatever it might be.

800 bucks for a Masterlink in the US equates to about 400 UK pounds - which in my book is a BARGAIN - I paid 699 UK pounds for mine a couple of years ago. If I could get one over here for that money I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

It's not about ME 'hooking the PC up to the stereo' and playing the 24-bits here, as I can just plug the Masterlink into the stereo and play them on that - it's about how to get them to other people who are asking for them; I can make 16-bit, 44.1kHz torrents easily, but Audacity doesn't want to co-operate with making 24-bit flacs, and ideally I'd like to shortcut the process and get the AIFFs direct to the people who ask for them.

At the end of the day, I could burn the CD24s and mail them out, but if I can do it more efficiently by torrenting them................

Regards, Grahamif that piece of equipment works for you - thats great.

After reading all these posts, I'm not sure why/how you feel getting AIFF files out of this masterlink system is so difficult.
AIFF file format has been around forever..its not proprietary.. its a common standard. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFF)

your system burns AIFF to small capacity CD's
burn out all the data from the masterlink internal hard drive (i read its a 4GB hard drive).
now you have several 96/24 DATA audio discs (in AIFF format)
put the DATA discs in your computer & transfer.
use Foobar2000 to convert/compress to FLAC > seed out your torrent.

is this not clear ?

regards,
me


"Is this not clear?" you said.

Don't be so condescending. This isn't The Lounge.

I didn't say 'getting the AIFFs out of the Masterlink' is 'difficult'. I can manage them onto the PC as AIFF files without any hassle at all. I asked about the possibility of including them as a valid file type in Audio torrents, so that those who asked for them could get them. You said you'd read all the posts.....?

"your system burns AIFF to small capacity CD's
burn out all the data from the masterlink internal hard drive (i read its a 4GB hard drive).
now you have several 96/24 DATA audio discs (in AIFF format)
put the DATA discs in your computer & transfer. "

Yup. Managed this fine the last time I did it.

"use Foobar2000 to convert/compress to FLAC > seed out your torrent."

This is the only stage that I haven't tried yet; last time, I used Audacity, as folks here had suggested it would happily cope with, and output, 24-bit/96kHz, but despite many attempts, all it would output was 16-bit/44.1kHz.

I don't have a learning difficulty, you know..... just because I haven't used foobar2000 YET, doesn't mean I have problems in understanding it or using it.

Regards (sort of), Graham

[direwolf-pgh]

sorry about 'the tone' graham. I didn't mean to insinuate anything negative towards you personally.

sometimes im an ass - Ill work on the character flaw. Glad to hear you've got it sorted. I feared this was heading toward three pages.

[roomful]

I just did this: took a 24/96 FLAC > converted to .aiff with foobar2000 > imported 24/96 .aiff into Audacity > changed **5** different settings in Audacity (changed track sample format from 32bit float to 24bit, disabled dithering, changed default sample rate to 96kHz, changed default sample format to 24bit, changed uncompressed export format to signed Microsoft 24bit WAV--which isn't immediately obvious, you have to select 'other' from the drop down box to access this option) > exported 24/96 WAV that can be encoded with FLAC Frontend or TLH. However, Audacity is changing the audio data somehow, because this exported WAV > encoded to FLAC DOES NOT MATCH THE ORIGINAL FINGERPRINT. :headbang2

In other words, it's a real pain in the ass to do it with Audacity and will not yield bit perfect results. This is partly because Audacity is a fully featured audio editing/processing program. Foobar2000's conversion process, on the other hand, is elegantly simple. There are only a couple options, similar to FLAC Frontend: select FLAC level (1-8), replay gain processing (leave unchecked), DSP processing (leave unchecked), replay gain scan output files as albums (leave unchecked). And no audio data is changed in the conversion process with foobar2000. :cool:

[roomful]

:lol4: I know that.. I assumed he needed to use a better encoder than audacity since it wasn't working for 24 bit...

AIFF can be converted to WAV with very little trouble, since it's nearly the same thing. Most people won't take the time to do it, but I'm sure Grahanm could. Then he could use the more standard encoder to get better results, was my point.

How many free Windows GUIs can rewrite a 24bit .aiff's header to .wav, and do the conversion bit perfectly, other than foobar? Maybe dbpoweramp? :hmm:

I'm sure it's really easy with shntool w/an .aiff 'plugin', but that's command line.

[paddington]

well, i hadn't been using the 'free' price-point as criteria since he's using an $800 recorder to transfer...

Graham, I think sharing the 24 bit audio here is great (and beneficial), i just think it needs to be 24-bit WAV and not AIFF... and FLAC'd. The seeder doing the work once to convert - not every leech having to convert after downloading, makes the most sense to me.

[roomful]

There are lots of free lossless conversion GUIs: FLAC Frontend, TLH, mkwACT, xACT, Monkey's, foobar

And you'll get the same results converting .aiff directly to FLAC with foobar2000 as you would converting .aiff to .wav with some program > FLAC with FFE if you use the same version of FLAC and the same encoding level.

It needs to be FLAC to reduce the size, so that less data has to be uploaded and downloaded. Once it's in FLAC, it will tend to be converted to .wav on a Windows machine, and .aiff on a Mac--if it gets converted at all.

[paddington]

There are lots of free lossless conversion GUIs: FLAC Frontend, TLH, mkwACT, xACT, Monkey's, foobar

And you'll get the same results converting .aiff directly to FLAC with foobar2000 as you would converting .aiff to .wav with some program > FLAC with FFE if you use the same version of FLAC and the same encoding level.

It needs to be FLAC to reduce the size, so that less data has to be uploaded and downloaded. Once it's in FLAC, it will tend to be converted to .wav on a Windows machine, and .aiff on a Mac--if it gets converted at all.


If you convert AIFF to FLAC, what happens when you decode the FLAC? Do you get an AIFF file or WAV file? I had assumed you would get the AIFF file back?

[roomful]

If you convert AIFF to FLAC, what happens when you decode the FLAC? Do you get an AIFF file or WAV file? I had assumed you would get the AIFF file back?

Once it's in FLAC, it can be converted to either aiff or wav, and it doesn't matter if the FLAC was sourced from wav or aiff. That's the beauty of it--Windows users and Mac users can convert any FLAC to their systems' default uncompressed audio format for burning CDs or editing/processing, and then upload, say, a remaster in FLAC that anyone can make use of.

[roomful]

^^ I should say decode instead of convert.

AIFF encoded to FLAC can be decoded directly to WAV or AIFF

WAV encoded to FLAC can be decoded directly to WAV or AIFF