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xcv111
2007-11-04, 02:36 PM
Hello.
Is this still a FM broadcast, thou it was recorded via digibox (digital)? The same show was simultaneously also broadcasted via traditional FM (analog) as well.

The show recorded is via digibox. FM?

All the best,
xcv111

Five
2007-11-04, 05:35 PM
digital broadcasts are lossy, the traditional analog fm probably isn't. digital satellite broadcasts are not allowed to be posted at TTD, but go ahead and tape them anyways.

I'm not sure what your question is or if I've answered it, hope this helps.

paddington
2007-11-04, 06:04 PM
He's asking about HD Radio broadcasting. Radio stations in the US (and maybe Canada? not sure if the standard has been adopted yet there) are putting "side channels" on the air that carry the normal programing as well as other, more niched programming. The standard is called IBOC (In-Band, On-Channel) broadcasting and the frq range is 20-20kHz of digital audio. It allows for two extra audio bands for every FM analog signal.

Is is not linear, but is is a much higher quality than FM (which is means it's better than satellite radio, too since XM / Sirius' audio compression is worse than Real Audio was over the internet in 1997...)

I'm thinking we should allow IBOC broadcasts as they are about to become extremely common over the next 15 months (you can get HD-Radio signals in over 100 cities now days) and, though it isn't linear, the quality is high - like DVDs aren't linear, but MPEG2 is considered acceptable.

xcv111
2007-11-04, 06:18 PM
digital broadcasts are lossy...
The recording in question is not satellite broadcast. The broadcast in question is a cable connection broadcast and recorded via digibox (digital).

When I viewed a spectral view - using Cool Pro 2.0 - it showed even higher frequencies - is that even possible(?) - than a conventional FM broadcast. My conventional analog receiver is Harman/Cardon TU 940 nowadays. So I guess that can't be lossy by any means - in conventional sense anyway. Or can it?

You didn't get my original question? Can this kinda radio cable digibox (digital) recording be named as FM, thou it's not recorded using conventional analog equipment: receiver etc.?

All the best,
xcv111

xcv111
2007-11-04, 06:42 PM
OK.
M.I.A. 2007-08-24 Rock en Seine 2007 (16-bit) (FLAC) is right now upped by me. There might be some reference point for you what I'm trying to say.

And once again thank you Jameskg, Five as well. Jameskg, you got it about right, thou my question wasn't is this kinda cable - no satellites etc. transfer involved - broadcast lossy or not.

My question was and still is: can it be named as FM?

Thank you for your replies.

All the the best,
xcv111

BTW. Jameskg. Thanks for some extra information concerning them blessed 100 digital cities etc. Much appreciated.

SundayDriver
2007-11-04, 08:42 PM
I am almost positive that xcv111 is talking about cable radio or "cable FM". I find these types of recordings are usually taken from high quality feeds and sound pretty good. (IMO, better than FM (much less noise) and digi-sat too.) If someone knows the usual bitrate of cable FM broadcasts, please post. The spectral views of both cable FM recordings I have are very close to spectrals of Dolby Digital audio at 448 kbps. I'm sure it varies from station to station though.

xcv111
2007-11-05, 04:02 AM
I am almost positive that xcv111 is talking about cable radio or "cable FM".
You are right. Cable radio or "cable FM" was the phrase I was looking for. Thanks.

So. FM?

AAR.oner
2007-11-05, 05:50 AM
So. FM?

no, you should call it what it is - Cable FM...listing it simply as FM will give folks the impression it is Analogue FM

my 2cents -- if you plan on seeding these, i'd research to see what type of codec the particular "station" uses to broadcast, & list it with as much info as possible...in this case, label it as:
Cable FM [codec/bitrate info] > digibox [make model info] > ..............

still not sure if these would be allowed to be seeded here...wouldn't mind seeing more info/SA/FAs on the subject

xcv111
2007-11-05, 06:35 AM
Thanks for your answer AAR.oner.
The "station" in this M.I.A. case is Finnish Broadcast Company (YLE) - same kinda station as BBC.

And thanks for the tip to research the codec used. I'm cautiously sure I'll get the information needed from YLE. I'm not at all that familiar with codecs. What kinda codecs TTR approve?

But. Playing it safe, you kinda suggest, it would be safer to record the FM broadcasts using conventional analog tuner, which - btw - is getting its signal via cable?

VonOben
2007-11-05, 12:54 PM
And thanks for the tip to research the codec used. I'm cautiously sure I'll get the information needed from YLE.

If it's from an older (a couple of years) DVB-C system I'd say it's MPEG-1 Audio Layer II (In other words "mp2"). Here in Sweden the bitrate usually is 192kbit/s CBR.

GRC
2007-11-05, 01:44 PM
We need a new category for Digital Radio.

DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) is the name given to Digital Radio here in the UK. There's a variety of ways to receive the broadcasts.

First is an aerial and receiver, similar to a traditional FM setup. The broadcasts are on a different frequency band to the FM signals, and obviously you require a dedicated receiver to tune in to them. It's generally accepted that, despite the broadcasters' claims, the quality of these is inferior to regular FM as the bitrates are too low, due to the broadcasters trying to cram lots of stations into the available bandwidth.

Alternatively, they can be received through Satellite and Cable setups; the broadcasting companies made space alongside the TV channels, and these digital radio signals are found in a dedicated menu in the EPG (Electronic Programme Guide). Opinions vary as to whether or not the quality of these signals is equal to, better or worse than the above. This sounds like the equivalent of the 'cable FM' that the original poster referred to.

Lastly, they can be received via the UK's Freeview service - this is primarily a DVB (Digital Video Broadcasting) service, but again, the programmers made space for the radio programmes alongside the TV. Again, opinions vary as to whether or not the quality of these signals is equal to, better or worse than the above.

I've uploaded a couple of torrents in the last category before now; one person protested that one track was lossy, but other than that, the quality seemed to be generally acceptable to all leechers.

Regards, Graham

SundayDriver
2007-11-05, 11:21 PM
I forgot to mention that there are two different types of cable radio broadcasts too: analog and digital. How they differ in terms of bitrate or codec type, I really don't know. :( I hope someone posts though with more info...

Five
2007-11-06, 01:10 AM
sorry man but this is just another lossy digital broadcast that gets routinely pulled here. it is not the same as a modern analog bbc broadcast, its worse than atrac, at best about the same as 128kbps mp3
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=722559#post722559

we're not gonna have a forum for this kind of stuff, its our niche not to host this kind of stuff. post it at another site.

when I was a kid we had our cable split and plugged into the radio back in the 70s and you could get tons of stations really before they invented mp3. we're willing to consider stuff taped using television cable>fm antennae but even that I'm not certain about at this time (I don't have cable at home). stick with the open air analog broadcasts, we're giving carte blanche on those.

paddington
2007-11-06, 01:14 AM
yeah, I totally misread his question and thought he was talking about DAB, HD-Radio, IBOC - whatever you want to call it. That's something else entirely and I was surprised to see him ask about it since the infrastructure is still largely being built... as it turns out, he's recording from his cable box :lol

my bad, etc

Five
2007-11-06, 01:22 AM
no probs man took me a while to catch on, too.

xcv111
2007-11-06, 04:35 AM
Oukki doukki.
Damnation! My bad. My digibox is using MPEG/MusiCam Layer I & II (MPEG-2?) codec. And YLE is possibly using for MPEG-2 codec. Which makes it a lossy source.

So I'll turn myself in and suggest M.I.A. 2007-08-24 Seine en Rock 2007 to be pulled because of being lossy.

Yeah. Have fun. :D

Tubular
2007-11-06, 12:54 PM
What's the bitrate of the IBOC codec, and how lossy is it? Can it be recorded digitally or do they encrypt the signal?

Thanks for some extra information concerning them blessed 100 digital cities etc. Much appreciated.

Those cities are truly blessed. Now they'll get to hear "More Than a Feeling" seven times a day, only this time in mid or high quality lossy digital. :lmao:

xcv111
2007-11-07, 02:28 AM
Those cities are truly blessed. Now they'll get to hear "More Than a Feeling" seven times a day, only this time in mid or high quality lossy digital. :lmao:
:lol Right. And thank you for the information that those channels are lossy too.

xcv111
2007-11-07, 03:50 AM
when I was a kid we had our cable split and plugged into the radio back in the 70s and you could get tons of stations really before they invented mp3. we're willing to consider stuff taped using television cable>fm antennae but even that I'm not certain about at this time (I don't have cable at home). stick with the open air analog broadcasts, we're giving carte blanche on those.
In my household there are two cable sockets on the wall. One is for television broadcasts (digital) and one is for radio broadcasts (analog). I've plugged my conventional analog tuner into the analog socket for the radio broadcasts. And according to Finnish Broadcast Company (YLE) there are no plans to go for a digital radio signal feed - at least not in the near future. This information I got phoning to Finnish Broadcast Company's (YLE) customer service.

I'm not at all into lossy formats (mp3 etc.) and that's exactly the reason why I've joined TTD and other sites which are into lossless media. And I've definitely no intentions what so ever to seed these kinds of recordings anywhere. The M.I.A. case was pure, stupid accident, because I didn't know anything about - stupid me - digibox radio signal feed. Yes. I ought have made some research before I recorded a radio broadcast using digibox and even seeding it further.

Now I'm an unhappy owner of the fantastic gig which is lossy. Depressing. My bad. Sorry. :(

Well. Live and learn...

xcv111
2007-11-07, 06:13 AM
And one more thing I forgot to mention. According the information the YLE technical support fellow told me, the analog radio cable feed is same as the aerial radio feed - not lossy.

Sorry if this "lossy not lossy" conversation is at wrong(?) forum, but I felt it's logical to continue this conversation here, since it popped up as one of the main themes I started at this forum.

U2Lynne
2007-11-07, 11:05 AM
Sorry if this "lossy not lossy" conversation is at wrong(?) forum, but I felt it's logical to continue this conversation here, since it popped up as one of the main themes I started at this forum.
If we thought it was in the wrong forum, we'd just move it to the correct one. However, Technobabble is all about learning, so I think this is the right forum for us to be discussing this.

xcv111
2007-11-07, 11:10 AM
If we thought it was in the wrong forum, we'd just move it to the correct one. However, Technobabble is all about learning, so I think this is the right forum for us to be discussing this.
OK. Thanks for this info.

Five
2007-11-07, 04:01 PM
In my household there are two cable sockets on the wall. One is for television broadcasts (digital) and one is for radio broadcasts (analog). I've plugged my conventional analog tuner into the analog socket for the radio broadcasts. And according to Finnish Broadcast Company (YLE) there are no plans to go for a digital radio signal feed - at least not in the near future. This information I got phoning to Finnish Broadcast Company's (YLE) customer service.
sounds great! I remember when my radio was hooked up to the cable for direct analog FM it was awesome. every 5mm or so you move the tuner dial another station comes up crystal-clear. You just need one of those tubular things with the female cable connector on end and two little metal things that get screwed down on an older tv and attatch it to your fm antennae connector on the receiver. they sell those here at the dollar store. (I know you know how to connect it but I'm putting that here for the benefit of anybody else reading this).

I'd love to hear a sample of what you get off that kind of a tap as compared to taping from the open air.

xcv111
2007-11-07, 06:13 PM
Yeah. Fine.

SundayDriver
2007-11-07, 10:10 PM
sorry man but this is just another lossy digital broadcast that gets routinely pulled here. it is not the same as a modern analog bbc broadcast, its worse than atrac, at best about the same as 128kbps mp3
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=722559#post722559

we're not gonna have a forum for this kind of stuff, its our niche not to host this kind of stuff. post it at another site.

OK, this was the case of a digital cable radio broadcast. However, I would like to show you a screenshot of a recording from analog cable radio. The spectral view is attached.

Solid activity all the way up through 18 kHz. I can't even hear the compression and the signal is crystal clear. It is completely different from the digital cable radio at broadcast at 128 kbps.

xcv111
2007-11-07, 10:42 PM
Yeah, thanks.

xcv111
2007-11-07, 11:36 PM
OK, this was the case of a digital cable radio broadcast. However, I would like to show you a screenshot of a recording from analog cable radio. The spectral view is attached.

Solid activity all the way up through 18 kHz. I can't even hear the compression and the signal is crystal clear. It is completely different from the digital cable radio at broadcast at 128 kbps.
OK.
Thank you. I've seen these carrier signals and all that before. Even on the e-v-i-l cable FM carrier signals reach up to about 18000 kHz or what so ever. Actually there are two carrier signals at least. And one of them is around 16000 kHz, quite possibly a bit lower than that and the other is around 18000 KHz.

But these carrier signal questions are easy to figure out: Google or contact your local FM broadcaster. Not a biggie.

About 128 kbps I can't tell a thing, because I'm not used to them - I'm not into lossy stuff. Until now I guess.

Thank you anyway.

Five
2007-11-08, 12:40 PM
OK, this was the case of a digital cable radio broadcast. However, I would like to show you a screenshot of a recording from analog cable radio. The spectral view is attached.

Solid activity all the way up through 18 kHz. I can't even hear the compression and the signal is crystal clear. It is completely different from the digital cable radio at broadcast at 128 kbps.
great news! :cool:

AAR.oner
2007-11-08, 07:03 PM
great news! :cool:
so does that change the "seedability" of any of those samples i sent ya? :D

xcv111
2007-11-08, 07:43 PM
so does that change the "seedability" of any of those samples i sent ya? :D
I guess not. We are right now talking about an analog FM cable feed. Few posts earlier there was a spectral view showing that the analog FM cable feed is not lossy.

SundayDriver
2007-11-08, 09:28 PM
great news! :cool:

um, so what does that mean? Would analog cable radio broadcasts be allowed here?

AAR.oner
2007-11-09, 06:47 AM
I guess not. We are right now talking about an analog FM cable feed. Few posts earlier there was a spectral view showing that the analog FM cable feed is not lossy.

how did you get a copy of those samples?! thought i only sent em to Five :hmm:

um, so what does that mean? Would analog cable radio broadcasts be allowed here?
i was under the impression that analogue fm broadcasts, be it terrestrial or cable, were always allowed here...its only digi cable/sat broadcasts that are banned, due to there use of shite compression codecs...

i could be wrong tho, we'll leave that to Five and the other audio mods to clear up

xcv111
2007-11-09, 08:18 AM
how did you get a copy of those samples?! thought i only sent em to Five :hmm:
Yup. Its' a crazy world out there. Possibly I was stalking around the corner? No, not this time. I was talking about the spectral view image DumbLuck posted here before.
Damnation! My bad. My digibox is using MPEG/MusiCam Layer I & II (MPEG-2?) codec. And YLE is possibly using for MPEG-2 codec. Which makes it a lossy source.

So I'll turn myself in and suggest M.I.A. 2007-08-24 Seine en Rock 2007 to be pulled because of being lossy.
This was my conclusion of recording shows from the digibox radio stations. And Finnish Broadcast Company (YLE) is even using a bitrate as low as 160 Kbps CBR on the digibox radio X3M channel feed in question.

paddington
2007-11-09, 09:21 AM
:going:

Five
2007-11-09, 12:32 PM
um, so what does that mean? Would analog cable radio broadcasts be allowed here?
yeah, so long as they're like what you posted a pic of (and they should be). I'm not certain about all countries but we will feel it out as we go along. I would love to check out a brief sample of what you taped so I could look/listen to it at home.

Aaron--your samples were different, unfortunately! :(

xcv111
2007-11-09, 01:41 PM
yeah, so long as they're like what you posted a pic of (and they should be).
How about if I include such a spectral view image as one part of my seed? Is that enough?

If I wanted to post you a spectral view image where I should post it? And do I need a ftp-connection for it?

Five
2007-11-09, 01:54 PM
you can just post it here/in the announce thread or whatever. if you hit the 'go advanced' button, then another button appears for 'manage attatchments' which opens a window where you can attatch images. oh, and of course there's also imageshack.us

no ftp necessary at all!

xcv111
2007-11-09, 04:47 PM
you can just post it here/in the announce thread or whatever. if you hit the 'go advanced' button, then another button appears for 'manage attatchments' which opens a window where you can attatch images. oh, and of course there's also imageshack.us

no ftp necessary at all!
OK.
So no ftp-connection needed when I'll try to post you the image of a spectral view when needed. But where do I post them spectral view images?

paddington
2007-11-09, 04:51 PM
.
OK.
So no ftp-connection needed when I'll try to post you the image of a spectral view when needed. But where do I post them spectral view images?


you can just post it here/in the announce thread or whatever. if you hit the 'go advanced' button, then another button appears for 'manage attatchments' which opens a window where you can attatch images.

oh, and of course there's also http://www.imageshack.us/ (http://www.imageshack.us/)


no ftp necessary at all!.

U2Lynne
2007-11-09, 04:57 PM
xcv111, the way I would do it is do your normal upload of a show. Then, when you get taken back to the thread, hit the Post Reply button. Then, as Jamie mentioned, at the bottom it says Manage Attachments and when you hit that, a window comes up, browse to the image, hit Upload and then say something in the post and hit Reply. Go ahead and try it in this thread if you want.

xcv111
2007-11-09, 05:07 PM
OK.
Let's see what happens if it do.

U2Lynne
2007-11-09, 05:34 PM
I should mention.... I am talking about the Post Reply button, not the Post Quick Reply button. You don't have the option to manage attachments during quick reply, you have to Go Advanced (the same as the Post Reply button which is above where it says Quick Reply - both do the same thing).

xcv111
2007-11-10, 06:49 AM
OK.