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GOGOOGO
2007-09-21, 03:17 PM
Consider me as a newbee and dont feel offended by my questions (I did not go trough all archives, might have been discussed for more than one time already):
What about converting vinyls - you know, the big black ones- to flac and seeding them (your faces are showing an expression of sheer horror, right?), taboo or desired?
I mean, aren't there several Silvers circulating with only vinyls and not master tapes as sources?

However, could any kind angel help me with the technique to get the stuff on harddrive, at least for my privat amuse? I know that there are conversion boxes existing to get the signal right from turntable to PC but I also had the consideration to use the Thorens with Ortofon pick up, go throug amp, leave amp via headphone plug, enter into PC via mic plug and record the analog signal using GoldWave. How to fight the crackling noise then? How clean can the result become?
Any comment and suggestion highly appreciated, especially the inexpensive ones.

Five
2007-09-21, 04:58 PM
almost... don't use the headphone out, use the line out (rca jacks) on the back of your amplifier, then connect that to your soundcard line in, not the mic in for better results. And of course a nice amp (Harmon-Kardon or something, best you can afford & use the 'phono' inputs) and computer soundcard always helps (such as M-Audio Audiophile 2496 for about $120). Since you're talking about Ortofon you've probably got a pretty decent turntable.

A lot of stuff has come out in better quality than the old vinyl bootlegs, some has not. Check around with hardcore collectors of the associated bands, see if you can get them to send you a track from the best circulating source via rapidshare or similar. When you tell them you have a potential upgrade in the works they are likely to help you out in exchange for a copy.

GOGOOGO
2007-09-22, 05:51 AM
Thank you Five, the answer was right to the point, nothing to say more,
just to mention that the analog equipment is Thorens TD160 MkII belt driven turntable with Ortofon pick up and a JVC A-X2 amp, both abt 30 yrs old but still in good shape (as me). I could post a list of items and check the interest. Which forum (here or elsewhere) should I post in?

GRC
2007-09-22, 06:16 AM
If the ortofon is around 30 yrs old, you might want to consider replacing either stylus (needle) or cartridge before embarking on this project.....

As was said, take the 'line out' or 'tape out' from the amp to the 'line in' on your soundcard.

The frustrating thing is, once you've archived things with the 30 year-old replay equipment, and you get a new deck, you'll want to do it all over again..... everything will be dependent on the quality of your source equipment, and if, after 30 yrs, it's not performing at its best, you might want to consider an upgrade here before the project.

Regards, Graham

GOGOOGO
2007-09-22, 06:36 AM
GRC, thanks for comment, I see what you mean, for sure you are right, I will reconsider the project.
Just to mention that the needle is replaced regularely of course. And in the old days they used to build the equipment rather heavy duty in terms of audiophile quality and durability.

GRC
2007-09-22, 07:07 AM
Glad to hear it; but it's worthy of consideration; will the cartridge still be performing as well as it did 30 yrs ago? Will the bearings in the tone-arm, although well-built, still be doing their job as designed?

I'm not trying to belittle your gear, merely suggesting that you might want to consider what's happened in turntable technology as well as digital technology over the last 30 years before committing to a large project.

One of the reasons I suggest this is that I made a whole stack of audio CDs using a Pioneer PDR-609 standalone CD recorder. At the time, I thought they were great, and thought I was archiving my analogue tapes for all time; now I've got an Alesis Masterlink, I'm re-doing these CDs, both at regular CD quality (44.1kHz, 16-bit) and CD24 (96kHz, 24-bit).

I tried to rip some of the Pioneer CDs with EAC for uploading, and it reported horrendous error rates; redo the CDs with the Alesis, and they're error-free. This hasn't been a long-term change; this step-up in quality has occurred in the last 5 years or so. Manufacturers are still making high-quality turntables, and, funds permitting, you may want to see what today's turntables have to offer before committing to a large project with the 30-year old.

Regards, Graham

Five
2007-09-22, 01:27 PM
Thank you Five, the answer was right to the point, nothing to say more,
just to mention that the analog equipment is Thorens TD160 MkII belt driven turntable with Ortofon pick up and a JVC A-X2 amp, both abt 30 yrs old but still in good shape (as me). I could post a list of items and check the interest. Which forum (here or elsewhere) should I post in?
you could try to ISO forums and searching sites like this to see if shows from the dates you're interested in researching have been shared around.

Best is if you can find a site associated with the specific bands in question such as livenirvana.com or sabbathlive.com or collectiveunconscious.org (etc etc) and email the 'contact us' link. ppl who run sites like those are the most helpful with this kind of stuff!

GOGOOGO
2007-09-22, 02:43 PM
So, Graham and Five, thanks a lot to both of you for the useful comments and hints. In fact, some years ago I recorded some vinyls on a Philips CD recorder but the quality was unexpected poor.
Last question to the experts: any proven method to fight the small vinyl crackling noises?

Five
2007-09-22, 03:20 PM
there are 'auto de-clicker' plugins, but they don't get all the clicks and ruin the music very quickly.

there is a method to safely get rid of them but be prepared to spend 100+ hours on each record you transfer! scroll down here:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=957

I wish there was an easier way, I am always looking but nothing that works properly has ever turned up. I would just leave the records alone crackles and all, or just go after the big crackles one at a time.

davidsss
2007-09-22, 08:46 PM
Converting vinyl bootlegs for distribution is very worthwhile, and your equipment sounds fine. I don't mean to criticize the above but I have a >30yo turntable and have never considered archiving my vinyl. I play it on my turntable and I still reckon that records sound better than CDs. Yes there have been advances in turntables but your Thorens is still a fine turntable, I use an old Micro Seiki. Some of the old turntables of quality were built to last a life time.

Go ahead and digitise the bootlegs for distribution, but as for the rest of the vinyl, keep listening to it on your Thorens, records are a wonderful medium for listening to music.

DS

GOGOOGO
2007-09-23, 04:39 AM
I like this place, exchange of opinions in a polite and competent manner, showing patience and handpicking the related link. Thank you DS for encouraging, the idea was just to convert the boots and only those no better digi version is existing. I am not going to bother anybody with the results of my experiments beside those which will be expressly desired by collectors.

Tubular
2007-09-23, 04:53 AM
You could listen on this:

www.laserturntable.com

Only 10 grand :wtf: , but there's no wear, and better sound than a needle.

GRC
2007-09-23, 05:33 AM
So, Graham and Five, thanks a lot to both of you for the useful comments and hints. In fact, some years ago I recorded some vinyls on a Philips CD recorder but the quality was unexpected poor.
Last question to the experts: any proven method to fight the small vinyl crackling noises?

As always, tackle the problem at its source, rather than try and correct it later - before even thinking about software de-clickers, etc, make sure you have a super-clean stylus, a super-clean turntable mat, and make sure you have a super-clean LP. This will minimise any correction that's needed later. You may want to consider recording tracks one at a time, and cleaning the stylus after each individual track. Make sure that the area around the turntable, possibly even the whole room, is super-clean and dust-free. We can probably draw the line at making the music room a full-scale 'clean room', and only allowing the turntable operator in when wearing a head-to-toe airtight suit with face mask and air supply, but you see what I'm getting at.... :D

There's a variety of specialist products out there that are reputed to do a fine job of cleaning LPs; I keep seeing them in adverts and magazines, but can't recall names offhand at this time on a Sunday morning, I'm afraid..... maybe later. :hmm:

I'm not suggesting anything wrong with the build quality of your Thorens, or any other poster's 30-year old turntable - I know they are well-built, I'm using a Linn Sondek that I purchased in the early 1980s; I merely make the point that wear & tear is a gradual thing, and sometimes goes un-noticed - your turntable sounds fine as it is, but once you get it serviced, all of a sudden you have a 'new' turntable. The deterioration & evaporation of, let's say, the lubricant used on the main bearing for the turntable, could be an issue. Some turntables need servicing, just like cars; and in my view, my own deck could do with a good tune-up; check the suspension, replace the bearing oil/fluid, etc, etc. It's just a question of me getting round to it...... In the case of my Linn, the bearing fluid is user-replaceable, I'm not sure if the Thorens is of the same design, but I knew someone a few years back who had one, and he would tweak it almost annually. :clap:

I merely suggest the possibility that your deck, being of similar age, *might* benefit from something similar before you embark on a big project.

Regards, Graham

Five
2007-09-23, 10:32 AM
You could listen on this:

www.laserturntable.com

Only 10 grand :wtf: , but there's no wear, and better sound than a needle.
did anybody here try that? is it really better sound than a needle? sure looks cool

JGH1
2007-09-23, 01:20 PM
did anybody here try that? is it really better sound than a needle? sure looks cool


Laser turntables play only black vinyl recordings......colored vinyl as well as picture discs cannot be played on them.

GRC
2007-09-23, 02:11 PM
The laser turntable was reviewed a couple of times in the UK publication HiFi News... I'll see if I can dig out the articles

Regards, Graham

Tubular
2007-09-23, 02:35 PM
I posted this in The Lounge a couple days ago on that iTunes thread, thought it would be more appropriate here:

Forgot about this, it's genius:
(the laser turntable)

I remember reading the booklet years ago from one of those early CDs where it said 'The Compact Disc combines laser optics with digital sound' and I thought, well what if they used laser optics on records? At an audiophile shop I visited I asked the guy about this and he laughed and said "It would be like reading the Grand Canyon!" (reading the record groove with a laser) I looked it up online and sure enough someone manufactured a laser turntable. It was 20 grand 10 years ago. Now it can be had for the bargain basement price of 10 grand. But you can play your records over and over again with no wear and tear and superior sound quality than needles.

Analog vs. Digital

Many believe that vinyl, under proper conditions, is THE most stable storage medium for music - ANALOG music! It has endured longer than any of the modern digital alternatives thus far, and this standard is raised seemingly every year with the inception of new technologies. The convenience that digital media affords us can never make up for the distortion and lost quality inherent in digitalization. Each musical format has its own unique value, so it is difficult to debate which one is superior. However, analog music is in greater danger of distortion from a needle - damage that is permanent and irrepairable to the source medium. Fortunately, ELP has the solution to eliminate ALL damage from wear and stylus contact!

No Needle, No Wear...

Record enthusiasts often dream of playing their records without damaging them. ELP has made that dream a reality and revolutionized record playback. Since 1989, ELP has encountered resistance to the Laser Turntable (LT) namely because it is believed that:

Vinyl Records will be replaced entirely by CDs
Mass production of the LT is not available (meaning cost reduction is not possible)

Based on these reasons, all other companies have not pursued the technology behind the Laser Turntable. ELP continues to manufacture and sell the Laser Turntable because we strongly believe that analog music aficionados will appreciate this unique way to revitalize and preserve their vinyl collection for years to come. Current record owners wholeheartedly refuse to believe that their vinyl is obsolete, even if their needles are slowly and inevitably making it so! There is no reason for vinyl to be obsolete; it's the most stable music medium ever, and it's analog!


If it is the most stable music medium ever, and has sound quality that can't be matched or improved upon, then why am I not surprised that major record companies and electronics companies didn't invest in research and development of a laser turntable? It fucks up the planned obsolescence business model that guarantees huge profits. :rolleyes: New, improved, better sounding digital! Buy our new discs and new players! Yay! But not better than analog sourced brand new clean vinyl on a laser turntable. ;) :D

GRC
2007-09-23, 05:52 PM
But not better than analog sourced brand new clean vinyl on a laser turntable. ;) :D

..and there's a school of thought that even old, well-used vinyl still knocks CD into a cocked hat.

Consider Led Zeppelin; sold millions, lots of LPs released, etc.

Back in 1969, 1970, the first pressing runs of Led Zep 1 and 2 were released, and the masters for these first pressing runs were, in all probability, cut direct from THE studio master tape; the original, not a copy; and crucially; this studio master tape hadn't been played very often, hadn't been taken in and out of storage, etc, etc. Some of the later pressing runs, especially those in non-UK territories, were likely to have been cut from copy masters.

Fast forward to a few years later, and once the initial pressing runs have gone, they need to re-cut a new pressing master, and the master tape gets used again. and again. and again. The more sales the band has, the more it had to be used, unless they cut the LPs from copy masters.

Fast forward to the late 1980s, when they use the 'original master' as the basis for the CD releases. This master tape has been doing the rounds now for 20 years or more, and given the high volume of sales that Zep have enjoyed, and the number of re-cuts that have been made, let's be honest, there is no way that master is going to be sounding as good as the day it left the studio.

Shortly after the Zep box set had been released, with all the hoo-ha about Jimmy Page overseeing the project to ensure the best sound quality, etc, etc, one of my friends picked up a first pressing of Led Zep 1 and 3; we put them on my Linn Sondek and did an A/B comparison against the CDs, and .... no competition; the vinyl knocked the CD sideways. The vinyl filled the room, the CD just slunk around in the vicinity of the speakers, and was like a pale shadow of what it should have been.

Regards, Graham

Tubular
2007-09-23, 08:27 PM
..and there's a school of thought that even old, well-used vinyl still knocks CD into a cocked hat.

we put them on my Linn Sondek and did an A/B comparison against the CDs, and .... no competition; the vinyl knocked the CD sideways. The vinyl filled the room, the CD just slunk around in the vicinity of the speakers, and was like a pale shadow of what it should have been.

Regards, Graham

Absolutely! With vinyl it feels like the music is a living, breathing organism, present with you in the room. CDs seem artificial in comparison. Even if the CDs and vinyl were made at the same time, from the master, the vinyl would knock it sideways I reckon.

Thought about all that hammering of the master tape...what if companies cut the records for the first pressing with the master tape, then for proceeding pressings, they used one of those first pressed LPs, but played back on a laser turntable. It will never wear out this way, but just needs meticulous cleaning. :cool:

popskull
2007-09-23, 09:53 PM
Ya know.........there is a lot to be said for the sampling frequency of analog..............ONE......continguous!

Regarding any surface noise on the LP..........I noticed a HUGE reduction of pop/clicks when I went from a technics 1200 to a Rega Planar 2 a few years ago.

Back in the 70's we were advised to get the bets Cartridge we could afford, then nail it to any old japanese turntable........when in reality, it was the other way around.

I think your weakest link will be using a stock computer soundcard........between its analog section and a/d conversion, it will be adequate at best. I would think a stand alone cdr deck would have better analog and a/d electronics

cheers- Mike

Five
2007-09-23, 11:09 PM
I would think a stand alone cdr deck would have better analog and a/d electronics
not the case... although it would be logical if it was!

Rega Planar 2? sounds nice!! how does it reduce clicks and pops, I wonder?

Analog rules... although some records are not as good as cds, especially when they've got really narrow grooves (eg from 30mins on each side).

GRC
2007-09-24, 06:07 PM
Rega Planar 2? sounds nice!! how does it reduce clicks and pops, I wonder?

... by giving you more of the music.....

Regards, Graham

GRC
2007-09-24, 06:14 PM
Regarding any surface noise on the LP..........I noticed a HUGE reduction of pop/clicks when I went from a technics 1200 to a Rega Planar 2 a few years ago.

Back in the 70's we were advised to get the bets Cartridge we could afford, then nail it to any old japanese turntable........when in reality, it was the other way around.

... and when you move up from the Rega 2 to the 3, or to something even better, you get the same improvement over again....

Everything about the turntable affects the sound; the bearing for the platter, the metal used for the platter, the accuracy with which the platter is made. How round should it be? If it's perfectly circular to a tolerance of + or - 0.5mm, is that close enough? Or would + or - 5 microns be better? If it's more accurate, does it sound better?

You've got to start at the source; but the question is; should the source that you start with be the cartridge and stylus that sit on the record, or the platter that the record rotates on?

Regards, Graham

GRC
2007-09-24, 06:17 PM
Thought about all that hammering of the master tape...what if companies cut the records for the first pressing with the master tape, then for proceeding pressings, they used one of those first pressed LPs, but played back on a laser turntable. It will never wear out this way, but just needs meticulous cleaning. :cool:

Sounds good, but I don't think there's that many NEW analog masters these days. Maybe a few specialist issues, but generally speaking....

Regards, Graham

Tubular
2007-09-24, 07:17 PM
I think there a quite a few artists that still record their albums in analog. I heard that the Red Hot Chili Peppers recorded 'Stadium Arcadium' in analog.

This is an interesting site:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/

Apr 26, 2007: Vinyl Fans Rejoice!

Warner Bros./Reprise/Rhino Records Jumps Into The Audiophile Market with All-Time Classic Favorites mastered by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman at AcousTech Mastering! From the Original Analog Master Tapes! Pressed on Virgin 180-Gram Vinyl at RTI. Coming soon:

The White Stripes - Icky Thump
James Taylor - Sweet Baby James
James Taylor - Mud Slide Slim and the Blue Horizon
ZZ Top - Fandango
ZZ Top - Tres Hombres
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
Rickie Lee Jones
Van Morrison - Moondance
Ry Cooder - Jazz
Joni Mitchell - Blue

And many more of your favorites to
come!!

The White Stripes record in analog! :lol :clap: