PDA

View Full Version : No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos


Tubular
2007-06-19, 12:42 AM
I have downloaded a few video DVDs recently that had a "Do Not buy or sell, for free trade only" text scroll or message that appeared on the screen periodically throughout the performance footage of the show. I agree with this message, that it should not be sold, but I do not agree with where this message is placed. In my and several others' opinion, it should not be on the actual performance footage of the show, but on the menu of the DVD or on the opening/closing credits (and absolutely before or after any concert footage) of the show. As someone from another thread stated, it would be like adding an audible message on an audio torrent while the band was playing. It takes away and distracts from the enjoyment of the show! We should take all the steps necessary to ensure that people don't sell unreleased material (like reporting bootleg sellers to Ebay admins) as that would hurt the artist, but at what cost? The money that someone spends on bootlegs could obviously be used to buy official releases or concert tickets. Most of the fine people who use this site will never sell stuff they have downloaded, so why impose a penalty on them? The few jerks who will sell material from here will not be stopped by a scrolling message during a show. They will do it no matter what.

I propose that The Traders' Den ban DVDs that have such "do not buy or sell" messages on the performance footage of the show that have been added by the DVD author. Maybe an exception can be made for people who don't have access to the master files, and can't author a version without this message. I might even go as far to say that all graphics or special effects that are added by an author on the performance footage of the show should not be allowed, but I have seen at least one DVD where special effects were used. Sometimes it was cool, but after a while it became tiresome. :rolleyes: So to summarize: put all the opulent, fancy graphics, effects, and "do not buy or sell, for free trade only" messages on the menus or opening/closing credits of a video DVD that you want, just keep them off the actual performance footage of the show. I realize that icons or scrolls added by TV stations or video cameras cannot be removed by the author cleanly, and shouldn't be messed with. I know I'd be up for a reauthor/reseed of those shows that have been done this way. :D

schmoe75
2007-06-19, 08:14 AM
Do you know how easy it is to delete a menu or edit the beginning/end of a dvd to remove "do not sell" if I wanted to sell it?
It's a lot harder to do so when its actually on the footage. Interesting how I've yet to see one of the shows you're referring to show up on ebay.

Don't know why you're complaining so much, considering its always placed at full stage shots at the beginning or end of a song and is absolutely no different than the song titles or scrolling text TV stations put on broadcast. There's a real easy solution...if you don't want to see it, don't download shows he puts up.

If/when you ever tape, author, or share something, you can do what you want with it...till then you can stop complaining and posting in every thread at how annoying someone else's work is to you.
It's not going to change, we aren't going to ask the author to change it, we are not going to ban any dvd's for it.

U2Lynne
2007-06-19, 11:08 AM
Hi Tubular,

I can understand your frustration with that, although I've yet to see a show with that added. However, I don't think it is a good idea to start trying to tell DVD authors what they may or may not do to the show they are authoring or they may just not want to share it. Suggestions are fine. Most authors like to hear about what you think of their authoring (at least, the ones I've known don't mind constructive criticism), but I think they probably added those lines for good reason (they've probably had their shows up on ebay).

As Joe mentioned, it is very easy to change the menus. The menus show up as separate ifo/bup/vob files in the VIDEO_TS structure. So, you don't like that part, you throw it out, add your own menus, and throw it up on ebay! With the lines showing in the middle of the show, they are embedded in the main vobs and it would not be so easy to remove them. So, there is a reason why they are adding it into the middle of the show and not just the menus.

Tubular
2007-06-19, 10:31 PM
I understand how easy it would be to remove all the menus, or a message at the beginning and end of a show, and I know why it was done the way it was, but this type of thing is never done with an audio torrent. It wasn't just me complaining, it was several others. The scroll on the John McLaughlin, Paco DeLucia, and Al DiMeola torrent was very large, and a lot of people voiced their opposition. One of them on the Santana torrent (haven't watched it yet) likened the message to spraypainting graffiti on fine art. The message on the Flecktones torrent was smaller and only appeared once. The smaller it is, and less frequently it appears, the easier it is to live with, at least to me.

You are right, I should (and will) stop complaining and just accept it now that I know it will not change, but I am glad I said something and tried to change it. Lynne, you said that you have yet to come across a DVD with this type of measure added. That may not be an accident, as most authors would probably rather see the show up on Ebay a couple of times than resort to draconian methods like a periodic message throughout a show. If something does show up on Ebay, then people with some free time can start the steps to remove it by reporting it to Ebay admins, then leaving a post or PM on the Ebay page about where to get it for free.

gsmyth79
2007-06-20, 12:02 AM
You simply cannot do the same thing with audio (I guess you could shout into your mics between songs or something), and at the same time way, way less audio is sold on ebay than video.

Unfortunately you don't have too much leverage in this situation. You're getting these wonderful shows for how much exactly? Oh that's right, free. You can also acquire some of your own master tapes and spend many many hours authoring your own DVD, and then put whatever the fuck you want on it.

I have to say I haven't seen this yet, but from what I've been told the messages appear between songs only. Is that REALLY that bad?

Tubular
2007-06-20, 12:34 AM
You could shout into the mics during the show between songs or add a message by James Earl Jones ("This is CNN") or somebody in post between songs.

It is mostly between songs and on wide shots, but there are a couple times when it occurs during a performance on the Paco, John, and Al DVD. Also a person from the Santana torrent said that it happens during the performance a bit.

I don't think it is right when a TV station scrolls song titles or promos during shows, and I don't think it is right when an author adds stuff in post either (including wide shots or in between songs). There is a lot of movement on stage between songs sometimes and some banter, like people sipping beers or motioning to bandmates, or shots of the crowd.

It was mentioned that the concerts with the security scroll have not shown up on Ebay, so evidently someone is checking to see if it is up there or not. Therefore, someone would be checking to see if a concert shows up for sale on Ebay whether the security scroll is implemented or not on a DVD. I can learn to live with the scroll, but how many shows actually get put up for sale on Ebay? Is the problem that big?

direwolf-pgh
2007-06-20, 11:17 AM
i agree with you Tubular - and those videos get less playtime around here - its disrupts the groove while viewing.

now if the author taped it him/herself & released it that way - i have no issue.

but to acquire outtake footage / some rare stock & just mess around with it,
to me that is like the person who likes to remaster audio with a standard EQ - then seed out.

Ill often enjoy & thank them - its all good! - but then search out the original footage/audio myself if its kills the vibe.

no biggie - just my 2 cents

U2Lynne
2007-06-20, 12:11 PM
Personally, I hate song titles showing up on DVDs, so I can relate to you not liking this scrolling message. Perhaps the thing to do is instead of getting on the authors case (I have no idea if you or anyone did, I'm just saying..), suggest to him that if he really needs to have that message added, please make it small and only last for a minimal amount of time. Authors usually react to suggestions made in a polite way rather than criticism (again, I don't know if you have criticized him or politely made a suggestion).

The direction I'm coming from is that I'm very, very reluctant to *tell* authors what they can and cannot do with their DVDs. I know how I feel if someone trys to tell me to do something instead of suggesting it and giving me good reasons. The best thing to do is to work with the authors to best meet their needs (mark the DVD so it doesn't show up on ebay) and your needs (have an enjoyable viewing experience).

paddington
2007-06-20, 01:23 PM
You simply cannot do the same thing with audio (I guess you could shout into your mics between songs or something), and or blow a whistle :idea:

freezer
2007-06-20, 04:52 PM
or blow a whistle :idea:

What a great idea!!! I'm glad I implemented it 30+ years ago when I was taping.......back in the days before certain people began pretending to be experts on all field recordings by certain bands..... :rolleyes: .

I've seem those markings be very useful for keeping unimportant things like lineage straight, much to the chagrin of certain self-proclaimed experts, huh, jameskg?



However, I must say, if anyone didn't like the way I applauded while recording at a concert I paid to see, they should go make your own tapes. And avoid the recordings I made.

Which is pretty much the answer to the original complaint.

If you don't like it, go ahead and make your own recordings. Then you can do with it as you please. Like applaud with a whistle.









Oh, and jamesky, if you must troll at TTD, next time, please, at least try to use some humor, if you can.... :thumbsup




Before P'finger chases you off also. :lol

Tubular
2007-06-20, 10:57 PM
now if the author taped it him/herself & released it that way - i have no issue.

but to acquire outtake footage / some rare stock & just mess around with it,
to me that is like the person who likes to remaster audio with a standard EQ - then seed out.

I agree with this for the most part, but what if someone filmed something him/herself and then added all kinds of trippy, psychedelic effects, or a box in the corner of the screen with him/herself playing air guitar/air drums along with the lead guitarist/drummer? :lol What seems right to an individual might not be what is best for the rest of the community. If it was the only or "best" video of a show, then there would be people rightly clamoring for a version without the effects. If the effects were added by the camera during filming, then there is not much that can be done to undo it.

If you run an AUD camera or an AUD audio rig then it will be pretty easy to tell if it is yours even if you don't add a signature between songs. This is especially true for a camera, with the unique angle of the filmer, the timing of the zooms and the wobbles of the camera. Unless someone runs very similar gear in the same location as you with the same settings, then your audio tape will sound different than someone else's.

Should this site and its seeds be specifically geared towards thwarting ebay sellers, or should it be geared towards the people who advocate and practice the free and open exchange of unreleased live music and the maximum enjoyment of said material?

freezer
2007-06-20, 11:58 PM
I agree with this for the most part, but what if someone filmed something him/herself and then added all kinds of trippy, psychedelic effects, or a box in the corner of the screen with him/herself playing air guitar/air drums along with the lead guitarist/drummer? :lol What seems right to an individual might not be what is best for the rest of the community.

"best for the rest of the community"????

And who will decide these standards? The "community"? or just certain like minded individuals, claiming to represent the "community"??

Please keep in mind, there's way too many demanding types in your "community" to ever get full consensus.


And further extrapolating from your post, just how do you propose to stop someome from marking their recordings any way they want?

Are you suggesting to hunt down these transgressors and take their master tapes, to satisfy "the community"?

You'll need to consider that, because you'll never make everybody conform to your rules . Especially such a diverse bunch as stealth tapers/filmers.

Maybe its best to "live and let live"... You don't like what someone is offering, then don't download it, or delete it afterwards if you don't like it....same as many others already do..... very simple. Live and Let Live.....



If it was the only or "best" video of a show, then there would be people rightly clamoring for a version without the effects. If the effects were added by the camera during filming, then there is not much that can be done to undo it.

"rightly clamoring" ???

C'mon.... :hmm:

Sorry, I don't believe you have a right to "clamor". (which I'm reading as "demand" , please correct me if wrong.)

You do have a right to politely request.

AND You do have a right to go out and make your own recordings IF you don't like what was offered.

It's always been that simple.


..........

Should this site and its seeds be specifically geared towards thwarting ebay sellers, or should it be geared towards the people who advocate and practice the free and open exchange of unreleased live music and the maximum enjoyment of said material?

That's wrong, you have only 2 choices offered here.

How about a third option....Should users of this site have the option to NOT download a show IF they don't like it? And let others take it --- if they wish.





And I'm planning to return to stealth taping this summer. This thread gave me some ideas. Maybe I'll imbed some messages in the master tape. Along with the whistle, that is...... :lol

Tubular
2007-06-21, 12:48 AM
Yes, being polite instead of demanding and hateful is always better. I meant that a lot of people would be asking for a "clean" version. Why mark your recordings? Once they are out there, there isn't much you can do to stop what is done to them. You can stop their sale on auction sites, as all unreleased material belongs to the band and not to the taper or seller. And sites like this have policies against unnecessary, excessive, or "bad" remasters, I think. This community has many standards, like no lossy sources, for example. There is not full consensus on this, as a lot of people think that an all digital SBD source with hi-bitrate mp3 in the lineage would sound a lot better than a 6th gen "lossless" cassette SBD source of the same show. Yes, live and let live is fine if polite requests are refused or ignored, and you can always not download or delete the show if you don't like it. Big thanks to all the tapers/filmers/authors for all their hard work!

freezer
2007-06-21, 02:26 AM
..... Why mark your recordings? Once they are out there, there isn't much you can do to stop what is done to them.

"Why mark your recordings?"

Why not. I did not necessarily make any recordings for 'public distribution" so why not? Your motivations for recording shows or collecting clandestine recordings are probably not the same as mine, so why make any assumption on motivation.




"Once they are out there...."

Agreed.... but then consider "Only if they're out there"....

What makes you so sure that a taper/filmer is "obligated" to put his/her recordings "out there"???

Most tapers/filmers share because they WANT to. If you told tapers/filmers they MUST put all their recordings out there, you'd get laughed at.






You can stop their sale on auction sites, as all unreleased material belongs to the band and not to the taper or seller.

Only after its "out there" and for some, putting the disclaimer on their recording is their perogative....and maybe their pre-requsite for allowing it to be "out there"....so they imbed it, making it hard to remove.

Or consider the alternative, maybe next time instead of the disclaimer, the taper/filmer declines to share at all; says nothing at all and you don't know that a recording even exists of certain shows.

Until it's "out there", it belongs to the person who possesses the only copy, now doesn't it?

And "clamoring" can't always change that. :cool:





....And sites like this have policies against unnecessary, excessive, or "bad" remasters, I think. This community has many standards, like no lossy sources, for example...........

Policies can always be broken, amended or changed at will; happens all the time.

"NO lossy sourses?".... at TTD? Are you absolutely positive?

I'm sure I saw something allowed in 2007 in the audio torrents forum that included "lossy sourced" material.....

I'd say that consensus or standard will be disregarded as needed, depending on what the material is, even here at TTD....

(Don't take that as a comment from me whether it should or shouldn't have been allowed at TTD, my comment is that 'rules set in stone are meant to be broken'.)




.... Yes, live and let live is fine if polite requests are refused or ignored, and you can always not download or delete the show if you don't like it. Big thanks to all the tapers/filmers/authors for all their hard work!

Now we agree, it was that simple all along. Live and let live.

And if you really don't like these imbedded messages, I suggest that on the next DVD that you film and author -- I suggest that you lead by example and don't include that imbedded graphic.

Take the high moral ground and lead by example....

Lead by example, you can do it, I'm betting that you can ...... :thumbsup

paddington
2007-06-21, 02:33 AM
Touchy :rolleyes:

Tubular
2007-06-21, 03:00 AM
And if you really don't like these imbedded messages, I suggest that on the next DVD that you film and author -- I suggest that you lead by example and don't include that imbedded graphic.

Take the high moral ground and lead by example....

Lead by example, you can do it, I'm betting that you can ...... :thumbsup

If I ever film a show, or seed an uncirculated show, or author a show, it will be without any graphics or messages added by me on the performace footage/audio content of the show, guaranteed.

But there is no moral high ground, it is a free for all, right? It is all subjective? Rules are made to be broken? Put whatever the fuck you want on a DVD? :rolleyes:

This is a no-win situation, isn't it? :lol

Tapers are under no obligation to seed anything, but hoarding? Well, I have never understood that.

freezer
2007-06-21, 03:04 AM
Touchy :rolleyes:

Will you please, please stop trolling ...

You've been told previously that nobody wants to get touch-ie OR feel-ie with you.

Please go back the Lounge and troll over there, you're needed in the random thoughts thread....Powderfinger wants to slap you around again.

freezer
2007-06-21, 03:12 AM
............Tapers are under no obligation to seed anything, but hoarding? Well, I have never understood that.

Its simple to understand also.

Live and Let Live. Don't try to impose your value system on the rest of the world.

What you consider hoarding, others may not.

Live and Let Live.

right? :thumbsup

Tubular
2007-06-21, 03:22 AM
Live and let live is fine, sometimes, especially if no one gets hurt. But to have no rules or standards (or lax ones) is total chaos and leads to pollution of the trading pool.

freezer
2007-06-21, 04:04 AM
Live and let live is fine, sometimes, especially if no one gets hurt. But to have no rules or standards (or lax ones) is total chaos and leads to pollution of the trading pool.

How did you get to the pollution of the trading pool from the topic of "No Graphics/Text Scrolls added by author on show footage of DVD-videos" ???

Why would you think that a DVD - with proper and correct lineage - albeit with imbedded text pollutes the trade pool?



"No one gets hurt...." We're talking about a few clandestinely made videos here, not drunk driving or 'weapons of mass destruction'. Certainly those 4 or 5 DVDs, which you don't "need" is not going to "change the price of rice in China", hmmmm? And them 5 or so DVDs certainly won't change policy at TTD....

"No one gets hurt" .... And no one gets hurt if you don't like the way the DVD is authored. You can delete it and do without that particular recording, right?



But I am curious now.....Why would you think that a DVD - with proper and correct lineage - albeit with imbedded text pollutes the trade pool?

Is that where you were headed all along?

Did you want these imbedded-text/graphics videos banned immediately?


Do you consider that these specific DVDs pollute the trade pool??? Am I understanding you correctly?




Say, if you really want to talk about polluting the trade pool, lets talk about 'lineages'!!!

Bogus and fraudulent lineages are what really pollute the trade pool. WAY more so than a miniscule number of DVDs with imbedded text or images.



Well, hell, go on and bring up lineages while talking about pollution of the trade pool also. Its a favorite topic of mine, ESPECIALLY the ongoing observance of particular band communities in falsifying lineage.

You wanna start discussing fake, false or bogus lineages, ok, lets do it.

But it's likely that bringing up what really pollutes the trade pool, we will get the thread that you started shut down.

Lineages, Pollution of the trade pool, NOW those are really touchy subjects at TTD......... :lol

Tubular
2007-06-21, 04:33 AM
Well if a show is broadcast on TV, then lots of people will have taped it at home. So someone then authors a DVD of the show with the embedded security scroll, and several people complain. Someone else aquires a master tape of the same show and decides to author another version of it and seed it, this time without the security scroll. It isn't an upgrade (well I would consider it to be), as both versions are from high quality masters that were recorded on decent gear. Now there are two choices for the same show, and twice as much work was done to get the "same" show out. Wanna b&p it for me? Which version do you have, I only want the one without the scroll?

My goal was to get a reseed/remaster of these shows without the security scroll and try to stop a trend, but it'll probably never happen, oh well. Someday all shows may have a security scroll. Hell, someday TTD may REQUIRE an embedded security scroll because it helps to prevent Ebay sales. Preventing sales is the most important thing, after all.

However, a seller could easily set up shop at a flea market for a few hours and make a ton of money selling boots with a security scroll to unsuspecting buyers. Then he could split and no one would have had the opportunity to go home and watch them, then come back and complain that he shouldn't have sold them, but freely traded them instead.

If a DVD with a security scroll was sold online, could the buyer even get their money back, legally speaking, even if a security scroll is present?

direwolf-pgh
2007-06-21, 09:00 AM
Preventing sales is the most important thing, after all..
..If a DVD with a security scroll was sold online, could the buyer even get their money back, legally speaking, even if a security scroll is present?
Ok... now you are turning into one of those 'anti-bootleg vigilantes'.
I can also tell you are 25 or younger. Here enjoy some history:

the only way to acquire bootlegs 20 years ago and before was at record fairs, street vendors & your local record shop. they were on vinyl & cassette & VHS.
Record shops used to get raided for this kind of activity.

10 yrs ago - the RIAA used to slam sites that were doing what this site & DIME..are doing (big fines $$$$$$)

Today.. they have given up - there is still no such thing as a 'free ride'.

you dont own what you are downloading & could probably be prosecuted for it - no bullshit.

If ebay keeps you awake at night. I suggest you get in touch with Chachi420 & start a crusade!!
dont count me in - Im just as guilty for downloading..so are you.. you just dont realize it.

the Video message thing is a 'new trend' - it will go away - its kinda goofy.

could you get your money back for buying a 'free trade disc'.
dude, you are high...
that is like a prostitute calling the cops cause her 'john' stiffed her..

enjoy the clue :lol

saltman
2007-06-21, 10:34 AM
I agree with this for the most part, but what if someone filmed something him/herself and then added all kinds of trippy, psychedelic effects, or a box in the corner of the screen with him/herself playing air guitar/air drums along with the lead guitarist/drummer? :lol What seems right to an individual might not be what is best for the rest of the community. If it was the only or "best" video of a show, then there would be people rightly clamoring for a version without the effects. If the effects were added by the camera during filming, then there is not much that can be done to undo it.I don't know which DVD you are talking about. but sometimes people add effects/slideshows to fill in gaps of video that are not present. It's kinda like patching an audio source with another if yours had gaps/problems.

When I make DVDs I try to put chapter marks at the end of these sections so that you can skip through them if there is a large section without video. Personally, I enjoy having the whole show even if it has a slideshow for 2-3 minutes. and I think that is the general consensus of the "community." If there is a huge section of video missing I'll cut it . or not share it.

I hope you understand why you are catching flack for your comments. Can you imagine someone saying.... You should have used this kind of capsule if you were that close to the stage recording. or Why did you transfer your tape through so and so sound card, it adds distortion. Be happy for what you get. That's all I'm saying.

It's one thing taking comments/suggestions from someone who has experience/reputation with what they are discussing it's another taking suggestions from someone who has not authored anything themselves. Your comments read like demands not suggestions also.

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 01:28 PM
I agree with Tubular. Putting scrolling graphics onto your DVD is dumb.

freezer
2007-06-21, 03:34 PM
I agree with Tubular. Putting scrolling graphics onto your DVD is dumb.


Then don't YOU do it, its OK, you don't have to, if you don't want to.


You are not obligated to do so. Live and Let Live.





For those that do put scrolling graphics or imbedded text, it's ok also. Who cares. It's only a tempest in a teapot.

Live and Let Live.

That's a pretty simple concept.



the Video message thing is a 'new trend' - it will go away - its kinda goofy

Agreed, it is goofy.....but maybe it won't go away.




OR maybe the tapers/filmers could take this "new trend" to a higher lever.........What about corporate sponsors for tapers/filmers?



Maybe some big corporation would like to buy a few tapers/filmers some new stealth recording equipment in return for imbedding commercials in their recordings?

How'd you like to see a few ads for Coca-Cola or Ford Ram Trucks in your next AUD DVD? Or maybe Microsoft, so you can see Bill Gates' smiling kisser hawking his wares inbetween "Start Me Up" and "Gimme Shelter" on someone's DVD of last night's show?

The mind boggles at the very notion.......... :lol :lol :lol

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 03:56 PM
Then don't YOU do it, its OK, you don't have to, if you don't want to.

You are not obligated to do so. Live and Let Live.

For those that do put scrolling graphics or imbedded text, it's ok also. Who cares. It's only a tempest in a teapot.

Live and Let Live.

That's a pretty simple concept.

Agreed. Live and Let Live. Merry Christmas Everyone.

AND YET - nothing has changed...it's still dumb to put scrolling graphics and text on your DVDs.

saltman
2007-06-21, 04:00 PM
OR maybe the tapers/filmers could take this "new trend" to a higher lever.........What about corporate sponsors for tapers/filmers?Now we're talking. I'm accepting offers. DrPepper if you're reading this, I'd love for you to sponsor me. Just send me the money and we we'll work it out. :thumbsup . I'm filming 5 shows next week. Better Hurry.

direwolf-pgh
2007-06-21, 04:12 PM
OR maybe the tapers/filmers could take this "new trend" to a higher lever.........What about corporate sponsors for tapers/filmers?



Maybe some big corporation would like to buy a few tapers/filmers some new stealth recording equipment in return for imbedding commercials in their recordings?

How'd you like to see a few ads for Coca-Cola or Ford Ram Trucks in your next AUD DVD? Or maybe Microsoft, so you can see Bill Gates' smiling kisser hawking his wares inbetween "Start Me Up" and "Gimme Shelter" on someone's DVD of last night's show?

The mind boggles at the very notion.......... :lol :lol :lol
you may have something big here.
how about this..
for the free trade community - put the banner & text - lots & often.

then for a small donation of $20 - to support 'the tapers fund' - you get the 'banner free/ad free/text free' version.

all donations are to support the taper,
and allow them the opportunity to upgrade their equipment frequently
+ ease the travel expence to shows.

:lol:

freezer
2007-06-21, 04:30 PM
Agreed. Live and Let Live. Merry Christmas Everyone.

AND YET - nothing has changed...it's still dumb to put scrolling graphics and text on your DVDs.

Happy Easter to you too..... :thumbsup

Sure its dumb, but whining about imposing your will all over somebody else's generosity is the really dumb concept here...







And saltman, Dr. Pepper is down with you for the next 10 shows you film. Dr. Pepper will buy your tickets, all-new recording gear and day-of-show meals with bar tab. You're expected to put in only 3 ads, plus you have to sticker your new gear with the Dr. Pepper logo. You also must wear their logo cap to hide your mics and you and your crew are getting Dr. Pepper logo jackets, and a year supply of Dr. Pepper for everybody in your pit crew. Happy taping.....

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 04:48 PM
Sure its dumb

I agree.

freezer
2007-06-21, 04:59 PM
Of course its dumb but there ain't anything you can do to stop others from doing it. :lol

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 05:06 PM
Of course its dumb but there ain't anything you can do to stop others from doing it. :lol

Well, just like the mp3 or lineage concept, if enough people get behind an idea it can become the accepted "rule." We can't stop anyone from spreading mp3's, but we still think it's dumb and don't allow it here.

Now, it could be that most people think it's just fine to put scrolling text at the bottom of the screen. You're right, in that case there's nothing I can do about it. It also didn't cost me anything to voice my opinion.

freezer
2007-06-21, 05:55 PM
Well, just like the mp3 or lineage concept, if enough people get behind an idea it can become the accepted "rule." We can't stop anyone from spreading mp3's, but we still think it's dumb and don't allow it here.


But we do allow lying about lineage??? -- For some band communities, lying about lineage is the accepted "rule". So what? Doesn't make it right. Yet, most hard core collectors know when the lineage is just too good to be true, so in order to get a certain show, they either do one of these things:
1. ignore the lineage and enjoy the show anyway
2. repeat the bogus lineage - spread it with bad lineage
3. punish themselves and not listen to the show
4. complain, complain, complain




And I suspect that you will not get a ruling at TTD about imbedded graphics/text until it's so widespread that its too late to stop it.

Or you'll just have to be satisfied with less choices, unless you accept the imbedded graphics.








And you are right, it doesn't cost anything to voice my opinion, so Enjoy the whistle. ;)

direwolf-pgh
2007-06-21, 05:55 PM
id like to hear from some who author DVDs..
I have one DVD show - where it flashes on the screen during the show :wtf:

DO NOT SELL - FREE TRADE ONLY (something like that) and it blinks

and im thinking.. who are you doing this for?? You're preaching to the choir..
and why should it affect all of us ?? that was my honest immediate thoughts.
it didnt ruin my life or anything.. but it was lame imo.

Im sure they may say... cause of those EBAY JERKS !! yeah.. well why should you degrade a show like that ? - get over it.. move on.

why not multitrack your voice onto every audio boot.
you can be like some DJ on the into to all the songs 'thanks for enjoying free trade! - be kind !- be free! Free Trade! " -fuck that.

more 2cents

saltman
2007-06-21, 06:03 PM
I author DVDs and I think it's lame too.... But IMO it's like has been stated over and over again. You don't have to download it. I don't think it's a widespread phenomenon. In fact I think it's only one person doing it. So it should be easy to choose to not download DVDs from that author if it bothers you. I completely understand why this person does this. I just think it's a little over board IMO. It wouldn't stop me from downloading one of those DVDs though if I wanted it.

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 06:26 PM
why not multitrack your voice onto every audio boot.
you can be like some DJ on the into to all the songs 'thanks for enjoying free trade! - be kind !- be free! Free Trade! " -fuck that.

:lol You know I've got a pretty good voice....

dcbullet
2007-06-21, 06:28 PM
But we do allow lying about lineage???

Because it is impossible for the admin and mods to verify lineage, I think it would be more accurate to say they accept the lineage provided in good faith. They can't police it - totally impossible. The point is that they do require it as an accepted community standard.

Tubular
2007-06-21, 09:54 PM
Dire, I got your PM, yeah you misread what I was saying, I was being sarcastic. Ten years ago I used to buy GD, Hendrix, and Clapton boots on cassette at a local record store. It was a great store, too, mostly vinyl. At the time, it was great, I'd get an uncirculated show from 1968 for only $15!! I also got a few Phish, JGB, and GD tapes for free by trade by word of mouth. I had no idea that selling bootlegs was illegal. I probably spent about $130 on boots from this "friendly" aging hippie. :disbelief

Saltman, it was a moe. DVD, I forget the date, I think from 2003 or 2004. It had lots of effects that were added in post (I think), mostly in the second set. I don't know how to describe them, kind of like shadowing or motion blur or something. I love slideshows that fill in missing gaps in the video, it is the only way to go, IMO, when there are video gaps in a set, cause the audio stays unbroken, and you can still look at something.

Enjoy all that mitochondria-undermining, liver destroying sodium benzoate (a preservative) in Dr. Pepper and most other soft drinks!! :rolleyes: It sucks, I guess I'll stick to gatorade or iced tea now.

It never occured to me that a taper would tape for him/herself only and not want to share. In that case, put whatever sounds and effects you want on a show. Bring a tambourine and shake it all night long right next to your mics if you want, that is if the people in your section don't mind it. But if you share it don't expect people to not complain about it. I'm glad most tapers and filmers don't deface, I mean mark, their recordings with an embedded message, it really harshes my mellow. What would you do with a set of music that has segues in between all the songs, with no break in the music? Embed a message during the music? Maybe you should "live and let live" at the very troubling thought that someone might sell or alter your recording that you don't own the copyright to in the first place. Hunt them down on ebay definitely, though, I'm all for that. It is a two way street: don't impose your value system on people who don't agree with embedded scrolls or messages. Also, if you don't want to share your recordings, why are you on TTD in the first place?

direwolf-pgh
2007-06-21, 10:28 PM
glad you didnt mind my tangent/words Tubular :D i can be a little cranky in the AM - comes with age i guess..thanks for understanding

Tubular
2007-06-21, 10:51 PM
glad you didnt mind my tangent/words Tubular :D i can be a little cranky in the AM - comes with age i guess..thanks for understanding

Not a problem, man. :D

freezer
2007-06-22, 03:13 AM
It never occured to me that a taper would tape for him/herself only and not want to share.

That's because you were imposing your values on everyone else. Its a very myopic way to look at the world.

Try walking in someone else's shoes before you decide your motivation should be the one single universal truth for the rest of the world.




But if you share it don't expect people to not complain about it.

Complain all you want, I usually don't give a good goddam about someone whining. Ususally I'll offer some cheese to go with the whine.



....... it really harshes my mellow.


Woah, Dude, the crux of the matter in one phrase. "harsh my mellow." whew....

Yeah, well, my favorite "complaint" was when some "good" downloader complained that when he first heard the whistle on the 2/28/75 Led Zeppelin show he jumped straight up and spilled his lit bong on his sofa and burned a hole in the seat cushion.

:lol




Maybe you should "live and let live" at the very troubling thought that someone might sell or alter your recording that you don't own the copyright to in the first place. Hunt them down on ebay definitely, though, I'm all for that.

I don't own the copyrights, never said I did, but neither do I have to give you a copy, right?

Furthermore: regarding E-Bay -- Well, who gives a fuck about E-Bay... I didn't mention 'em. YOU, Tubular, seem to be the one concerned with E-Bay, so you fight 'em. I don't care. (Again it's your value system alone you reflect, not everyone else's, certainly not mine. Fighting E-Bay sellers is like pissing into an electric fan. Futile and potentially messy.)




It is a two way street: don't impose your value system on people who don't agree with embedded scrolls or messages.

A two way street? BULLSHIT....You are making a demand that tapers/filmers obey your value system.

If you don't like it, don't download it.....there's the ONLY two way street in bit-torrent land.

That's pretty simple.

If you don't agree....make your own recordings of the shows you want.

That's the only guarantee that you'll get that the end results you want and you think you deserve.

And if it doesn't come out the way you planned, you'll have only yourself to blame.






Also, if you don't want to share your recordings, why are you on TTD in the first place?

:lol

I trade, I don't upload, nor do I download.

This place is called The TRADERS' Den. It's right there, at the top of the page. This is a site for Traders.

And as far as sharing, I share what I want, when I want. I send stuff to the site owner, and some mods here and there and some other trusted friends, and the stuff goes up that way.

That's my privledge and my perpogative as the taper and owner of the master tape I recorded. I don't own the copyrights but I do own the physical media the show is recorded on.

SO If you want something specific from me, offer a trade. If not, you can complain until you die and I don't care.


But, well, lets say we have different points of view, and we'll live and let live.

Still, I suggest you never bother to download any of the recordings I made, as you will not like 'em, and I wouldn't want you to waste your time.

:D

Tubular
2007-06-22, 03:48 AM
I am sick of arguing about this, but, it isn't just my value system, it seems to be the prevailing wisdom among the vast majority of tapers that extraneous sounds and images not be embedded into the recording by the taper/author on purpose. When you blew the whistle at shows (I'm assuming it wasn't added in post-production) didn't it bother those around you? Like, people saying, hey bud, if you think you are so great, start your own band and hold your own concert. Latin jazz music has a whistle in it sometimes. I think it is rude, but that is just my own peculiar value system. And why did you blow the whistle, for what purpose? As a security/identification feature to your recording, or just as a celebration/applause type thing? :hmm:

Someone burning a couch on accident is funny? Well it might be funny in retrospect, or on a comedy sketch, but not so funny to the guy who now has to turn that cushion over, not to mention get bong water smell out of his couch.

freezer
2007-06-22, 05:04 AM
.....Someone burning a couch on accident is funny? Well it might be funny in retrospect, or on a comedy sketch, but not so funny to the guy who now has to turn that cushion over, not to mention get bong water smell out of his couch.

Absolutely hilarious.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


....... it seems to be the prevailing wisdom among the vast majority of tapers that extraneous sounds and images not be embedded into the recording by the taper/author on purpose.

Things change, standards change. Check back next year and see if the imbedded text thing catches on.....






When you blew the whistle at shows (I'm assuming it wasn't added in post-production) didn't it bother those around you? Like, people saying, hey bud, if you think you are so great, start your own band and hold your own concert.

It didn't bother anyone at any show where it was used. But later, I used a duck call. Its not as 'frightening' to the chemically-enhanced down-loader....

And if you didn't like the whistle, I am big enough for you to tell me to my face there and then, I won't cry. No one ever did complain at any show, they were too busy enjoying the concert and cheering themselves, bud.

After the fact, well, I just don't give a fuck if anyone doesn't like the way I applauded at a concert.

I bought my ticket -- you didn't. Therefore, you have no right to do anything but complain, but please keep the complaints to yourself, or go make your own recording of that show.....Oh, you can't go to that show, gee that's a shame..........

I offer cheese to the whiners who complain.



And why did you blow the whistle, for what purpose? As a security/identification feature to your recording, or just as a celebration/applause type thing?

Applause.
Cheering.
None of your business.
All of the above answers.

Maybe I was trying to "harsh someone's mellow" 30 years after the fact..... :rolleyes: :lol Maybe not.



But again I suggest that you never download something I recorded.

You already know that those recordings contain sounds of which you won't approve. Like the taper applauding, while holding one arm in the air with microphones.


You now know about 'em. If you do download one, you shouldn't feel the need to complain, because you were advised to beware. You have no right to complain since you already know you won't like it, right?

So either go here and download this:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38444

and........ Enjoy the whistle.





Or don't download it.........Live and let live.

Tubular
2007-06-22, 05:52 AM
If I see something I'm really interested in that you taped, I will download it, not complain, and live with the whistle, but...what if there were two AUD recordings of one show, and yours was the better tape, and someone cut out the whistling portions of your tape and patched with the inferior tape, then seeded to TTD or Dime? Please understand i'm only joking. :lol But maybe I'm not.... :roflol: Live and let live, right? :lol :lol :roflol: :wave:

freezer
2007-06-22, 11:56 AM
If I see something I'm really interested in that you taped, I will download it, not complain, and live with the whistle, but...what if there were two AUD recordings of one show, and yours was the better tape, and someone cut out the whistling portions of your tape and patched with the inferior tape, then seeded to TTD or Dime? Please understand i'm only joking. :lol But maybe I'm not.... :roflol: Live and let live, right? :lol :lol :roflol: :wave:

What if my aunt had nuts? Well then she'd be my uncle.... Maybe I'm joking....maybe not. But what if? :D

What if someone patched in three hundred buffalo farts, What if they patched in their kid brother on kazoo....... Personally, I don't care. You'd be a damned fool to think you have any contrtol once it's out there.

So what?

You have to live with that, not me, as I'll still have the master recorrding, right?

You can decide if you want the kazoo version or the buffalo fart version and download accordingly .... or not.


But you changed the topic slightly. We were talking about tapers/filmers marking or "defacing" (as you put it earlier) something they recorded. That's why I suggest that you make sure you personally record/film the shows you "have to have". Make your own masters and you will have only yourself to blame if you don't get the results to match your quality standards.



Case in point: I have yet to hear any alternate audience tape of any show I also taped that was better than mine. :thumbsup I learned how to do it myself and didn't sit and wait for someone else to do it. Nor did I sit and complain afterwards that they didn't give me what I wanted on demand.

:cool:




SO ... What if the only person I gave a certain show to decided to convert it to mp3 before sharing...

What if I didn't give a good goddam anyway? Why I guess you'd be listening to that show as an mp3 or you'd still be waiting for that alt version to someday surface.....someday....someday.

What if that already happened? :roflol:

Oh well, its out there and I can't do anything about it.....so why try.

Live and Let Live, right? :thumbsup

Tubular
2007-06-22, 10:13 PM
The point is if you put in a distinguishing feature on the actual performance to mark it as yours, you run an even greater risk of someone messing with it to try to get rid of something most tapers/traders find non-standard or odd. You said earlier that you are glad you implemented the whistle 30 years ago when taping. So it doesn't appear that you whistled just to applaud, correct me if I am wrong. But it's none of my business I guess. :rolleyes:

There are some forms of digital audio copy protection that use watermarking. Some types of watermarking degrade sound quality. This should always be opposed by audiophiles, even if it is the only effective way to prevent copies being made (which it is not).

Yeah, you are entitled to your opinion and I guess you can record and author pretty much any lossless way you want unless there is a ruling on TTD, no matter how idiosyncratic, eccentric, unorthodox, and unpopular it may be.

You seem very defensive about the whistle. Does anyone besides you enjoy it on one of your recordings? I understand what's done is done and it can't be changed, but you intend to use the whistle again this summer when you tape, and intend to share these recordings. Then you sarcastically say people should enjoy the whistle. Well I won't enjoy it if I do get a hold of one of those tapes, just like I wouldn't enjoy someone multitracking in a hot French Horn solo that wasn't in the original perfomance over some rare, uncirculated Jimi Hendrix. But making the maximum amount of people happy with your recordings isn't your goal. They must learn to tolerate, I mean appreciate, the wild eccentricities of your tapes and kindly not download it if they don't like it.

If you like to blow the whistle so much, why not become a football referee or join a Latin Jazz band? Better yet, take the world by storm and go solo and cut a record of nuthin' but whistlin' improv, with a kazoo virtuoso, master of the triangle, jew's harp expert, and a douche on an air horn backing you up. I'm sure it'll be toe tappin', good-time music. Ain't nobody will have ever seen nuthin' like it before, and probably never see nuthin' like it again. :lmao:

AAR.oner
2007-06-23, 10:16 AM
What if someone patched in three hundred buffalo farts,
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

thanks for the idea Freezer...didn't want to steal yer whistle sig, but needed something to mark our recordings...now i think we've found it :D

AAR.oner
2007-06-23, 10:21 AM
my 2 cents on all of this...

as a taper, i'll do what i want with my own recordings, whether DVD or audio...if that means yelling out "AndreaSueEllen - we love you!" a million times during the set, i will [see yonder @<hidden> the Peel :cool: ]...

thats one of the benefits of carrying around $3000+ worth of gear to shows...just sayin