What are Site Admins allowed to do with donations?

[U2Lynne]

Usually a site has a person or two who decides what the donation money goes to. Some sites just put the money towards server costs, some towards ratio 'help', some towards who-knows-what. But, basically, the users don't really vote on where the money is spent.

WITHOUT BRINGING SITE NAMES INTO THIS, we are talking IN GENERAL, what do people expect from the site that is taking donations. Should the site post an accounting of exactly where the money is going? Should the site ask the users if it is OK to upgrade to a new server? Should the site ask the users for permission before spending any of the money? Should the site ask permission before deciding to give benefits to those that donate? And should only the people who donate monetarily be allow to have any say in these decisions?

What exactly is the site's responsibility to its users in regards to the donations?

[trustthex]

I've always felt/assumed that donations should be used to pay for bw, server/colo costs, etc. in response to your questions, in order:

1: if it wants to, only public companies have to post their accounting... i dont think the site should have to, i hadn't thought that admins would be raking in money on this whole deal. this is a hobby, and for the most part we have jobs.

2: only if you want them to panic before the upgrade ;)

3: nope, bills in, bills out

4: what kind of benefits? a tax rightoff? :-p anything else feels shady to me

5: nope, not everyone who votes participates in democracy.

6: do no evil

[zombfuckingsucks]

Torrent sites should never ever sell ratio power for money and then falsely apply the misnomer "donation" as though it were a donation to downplay the sale of copyrighted material; which is what it is! While donations for server costs are fine, exchanging bootlegs or access to bootlegs for money is not. Any website that engages in this action is sleazy and reprehensible at best.


THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SALE AND DONATION

Sale: The exchange of product for money
Donation: A pledge or free contribution without reciprocal exc




U2Lynne,
I'm not trying to be adversarial and I commend that you are trying to restore some peace and civility. However, I think people should at least be aware of the particular websites that do engage in this practice, otherwise corruption will go unfettered and unquestioned at the expense of free trade and the true spirit of music.

[trustthex]

never assume ratio = power, plenty of people with either shitty ratios, or none at all

[U2Lynne]

OK, but what if a site is upfront and says 'your donation will get you - ratio help or access to private part of the site or xxxx'. What if you want none of those 'perks' but you want to thank the site and help with server costs (which I think all sites have to deal with!).


This thread will be fine as long as we keep it civil and all just discuss our opinions.

[onerok]

Torrent sites should never ever sell ratio power for money and then falsely apply the misnomer "donation" as though it were a donation to downplay the sale of copyrighted material; which is what it is! While donations for server costs are fine, exchanging bootlegs or access to bootlegs for money is not. Any website that engages in this action is sleazy and reprehensible at best.


THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SALE AND DONATION

Sale: The exchange of product for money
Donation: A pledge or free contribution without reciprocal exc

U2Lynne,
I'm not trying to be adversarial and I commend that you are trying to restore some peace and civility. However, I think people should at least be aware of the particular websites that do engage in this practice, otherwise corruption will go unfettered and unquestioned at the expense of free trade and the true spirit of music.

God you are so full of shit. You and your bullshit tough wanna be lawyer talk. No one is selling access to bootlegs you stupid fuck. Your definition of donation is not entirely accurate. People make donations or contributions to charities all the the time that offer small gifts of their appreciation. Offering an upload credit is not offering product or access. Everyone has equal access to the site and agree's to the site's rules about sharing before they start downloading. If you don't like the rules about share ratios then don't join. As long as is clear as to what the money goes to, then there is no problem. If you believe otherwise then you should offer some evidence besides your bullshit rantings, and hold all sites to the same conditions. If you don't want to donate then by all means do not. If you don't want an upload credit, then say so, and you won't get it. Torrents can be made ratio free at the request of the taper, and are if you are so concerned about money issues. Your attempt to slander a certain website is totally fucking bogus. Take your asshole lawyer prick waving and go fuck yourself.

[direwolf-pgh]

site admins & accounting - servers have a cost - hosted websites have a cost - data/traffic has a cost.

donations make these sites possible

0. admins offer personal time & monies to configure and create communities
1. people donate shows - time & effort
2. leechers offer bandwidth to share out with others.
3. mods offer time & energies to ensure community is within standards & enjoyable.
(mods often get the short end of the stick - as they must enforce wisely and openly - often subject to criticism )
4. donations complete the circle > back to server hardware costs/bandwidth cost/software upgrade costs.

this has been the norm for a couple decades.

offering special treatment to some traders has always existed.
that is how the world spins.

creating a community where a person is basically 'told' they will remain 'underlings' unless a donation is offered (vip member status...etc) is bullshit.
you are belittling to play users against each other for social status.
Offering an 'elite status' for money is a scam to collect revenue.
Money for ratio credit is bullshit - that is a hustle.

a good solid trading community has always been generous.
A good community ensures that the pleasure offered out
continues for themselves and others.

im going to finish my meal... back with more thoughts in a few.. :)

[trustthex]

OK, but what if a site is upfront and says 'your donation will get you - ratio help or access to private part of the site or xxxx'. What if you want none of those 'perks' but you want to thank the site and help with server costs (which I think all sites have to deal with!).


This thread will be fine as long as we keep it civil and all just discuss our opinions.

i don't think that would really influence my decision... fark has totalfark, and that has never made me want to sign/pay up. if my donation were to get me a t-shirt, that would be pretty neat :D

i guess we need someone w/ contract/business law to really get down to the legalities on all of this, but i'm pretty sure that offering exclusive access or something would definitely constitute a business. adding gb to make up one's ratio is just kinda weak imho.

[Syco54645]

splra ran a fund raiser last year. we raised the money that we needed in no time flat. all of that money went into moving the server to our new host. we are not dedicated hosted so the money that we needed came fast. nicest thing about our new host is that they have a place where someone can donate money that it goes directly to dreamhost for our costs so no one can complain. even before this, we had no problem getting donations when they went to milan's paypal. with the excess money we decided that rather than putting it towards next year to get beer and hookers... the beer store was closed, so we just got some hookers. this was a joke actually. we stopped accepting donations once we were within $5 or something of the target as to not go over. maybe people would feel more comfortable if all hosts had something like this that people could donate through (the dreamhost donation thing that is).

-Frank

[Syco54645]

i am going to have to agree with trustthex about donations affecting ratio, i dont really agree with it, though it balances out i suppose. either way the person is contributing to the community in one way or another. the poor person can seed, the rich can hit and run. i need to seed more :(. my ratio is getting rather limp.

edit:
forgot to mention that i do know why sites do it though. it is more not liking it than not agreeing with it.

[direwolf-pgh]

ehh.. if i didnt like what a site did - id go to another one or create my own (again)...

personally Im having a good time.. hope everyone else is.

yes i donate here and there - when i feel like it

[Syco54645]

ehh.. if i didnt like what a site did - id go to another one or create my own (again)...

hahaha instantly reminded me of
"Fine. I'll go build my own lunar lander! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack! Ah, screw the whole thing."

[direwolf-pgh]

:lol we have all been down that path - its an industry thing.

running a site is a lot of fun... sometimes it spins this way and that..
too big can be the biggest issue. finding a comfortable compromise is the way to go

[zombfuckingsucks]

Easy sailor-mouth, I would ask that you settle down and desist from posting libel about those who value an education. Take notice that libel is written and slander is spoken, however, I've not posted any libelous information about that particular site.

My distinction between donations and sales was on the money. In fact, many charities will strategically give small gifts in return for their customers' pledges to make sure their clients are bound by contract so they honour their pledges. One who makes a true donation is not bound by any such contact nor is their an exchange. These are actually classified as exchanges not as donations since donations are not enforceable by contract while exchanges/sales are. So now you know. ;)


God you are so full of shit. You and your bullshit tough wanna be lawyer talk. No one is selling access to bootlegs you stupid fuck. Your definition of donation is not entirely accurate. People make donations or contributions to charities all the the time that offer small gifts of their appreciation. Offering an upload credit is not offering product or access. Everyone has equal access to the site and agree's to the site's rules about sharing before they start downloading. If you don't like the rules about share ratios then don't join. As long as is clear as to what the money goes to, then there is no problem. If you believe otherwise then you should offer some evidence besides your bullshit rantings, and hold all sites to the same conditions. If you don't want to donate then by all means do not. If you don't want an upload credit, then say so, and you won't get it. Torrents can be made ratio free at the request of the taper, and are if you are so concerned about money issues. Your attempt to slander a certain website is totally fucking bogus. Take your asshole lawyer prick waving and go fuck yourself.

[zombfuckingsucks]

OK, but what if a site is upfront and says 'your donation will get you - ratio help or access to private part of the site or xxxx'. What if you want none of those 'perks' but you want to thank the site and help with server costs (which I think all sites have to deal with!).


This thread will be fine as long as we keep it civil and all just discuss our opinions.

If you just want to donate that's fine... as long as that money isn't abused and spent on recording equipment and indulgences. However, to sell those perks is to sell access to illegal material. As I said, donating is one thing, but there must be no exchange. A particular site does this to induce more "donators" and bring a mix of purchasers to increase their revenue; a clear line of accountability which has been crossed.

[Syco54645]

so then donating is ok if the costs go to running the server but not for getting new sources? so what if a site were to take donations for buying a huge video or dat lot from someone, would this be bad? i dont think that the recording equipment thing is a bad idea as long as it is used correctly. i think that the site would have to allow the user what to donate towards. that way it would give the user a choice on what to support, new server or recording equipment.

[Phishblowz]

donations make the free sites free...if the expense of the site was completely out-of-pocket for admin, who the hell would want to run a site :hmm:

I think the joy of knowing you contributed to the site should suffice (though I would love to see t-shirts...maybe hats too) but if you are a flag-waver and need to be acknowledged for what you do, maybe add an "I donated to ttd" on their header...but as far as ratio credits for money...I don't see how it matters without an enforcement of ratio requirements, so I guess I wouldn't care...but I know other sites have ratio requirements and your account is checked after every so many gb dl'd, and donations add to the amount of gb you can dl before a ratio check from admin...in a case where folks donate money to get around a ratio enforcement, I think that's weak, not to mention the fact that it becomes an ethical nightmare...if a ratio is enforced, it should be required that you keep up with it, and not just throw money at it to make it go away, otherwise it would be like buying access to the bootlegs (which goes against what we do)

where we are allowed complete access for free, you are not at any time selling anything or offering anything of illgotten gain from the donations received, so what you do to thank the monetary helpers is up to you...you need not explain yourself and your financial dealings in relation to the site...if I didn't have faith that this place was on the up and up, I wouldn't be here...you have my full confidence with how you spend the donations...fear not

just whatever you do, please don't offer any "exclusive areas or torrents" for donaters, because that would make the donations seem more of a payment for access than a contribution in good faith...

direwolf-pgh said "Money for ratio credit is bullshit - that is a hustle." but this is really only true if the ratio was a requirement for membership...and according to other forums that is not (nor will be anytime soon) the case here, so if you wanna toss some ratio credit so the donater can feel better about himself, then go for it...it's really an insignificant number anyway, so it doesn't make a difference...but if you ban folks at a .50 ratio (or whatever) and they can override that and continue to rape the bandwidth because they paid you to leave them alone about it, that would be a bit of a hustle...so if you plan to enforce a ratio, please don't give out credits (to avoid seeming inappropriate) but if ratios are just for shits and giggles then feel free to throw em a bone...it don't matter to me in the slightest...but I still say a hat or t-shirt is the way to go, because you can technically charge whatever you like (PBS style) for it, and we actually get something to show for our contribution without feeling like we donated for status symbols...besides, the publicity couldn't hurt ;)

but what do I know :hmm: I just know I trust you to make the best judgment call you can make, and although there will always be those who disagree with you, including myself from time to time (I still love ya though) I know in my heart that you do what you do with the best of intentions and I wouldn't hold it against you...

while I'm at it I would like to take a minute to say thanks for creating a place where we can all get together and share this stuff (as well as our opinions) it can get crazy sometimes, but all in all, there's a lot of good folks and great opinions here...I have learned alot from the forums here, and my collection has benefitted greatly from this place too...so thanx a million for everything...you're the best...hope my opinions help you with your concerns, I'm sure you'll make the best decision possible...or at least the most respectable decision possible, and that's good enough for me...keep up the good work :thumbsup

and to speak briefly on zombfuckingsucks' comment about selling "perks"...if the "perks" are only for the purpose of appearance and don't actually give you any additional access to anything then you can't really consider it a sale or exchange...it's kinda like saying if you do me a favor, I'll be your best friend...it's really just a charitable service, but technically speaking, you received something for the service (friendship) as was bargained for beforehand...a sale IMHO has to actually requires a tangible gift of value in return for the payment...this would only be the case if the ratio had a required level to be maintained, or if there was access to new areas or torrents...if the only thing you get is a pat on the back, I can't hardly consider that sales...and as far as merchandise goes, you can announce that as outright sales because the merchandise is legit, and you could put all profits toward the site and not be harassed for profitting on illegitimate recordings, as they remain free and open to all members regardless of whether or not they donate

[Phishblowz]

so then donating is ok if the costs go to running the server but not for getting new sources? so what if a site were to take donations for buying a huge video or dat lot from someone, would this be bad? i dont think that the recording equipment thing is a bad idea as long as it is used correctly. i think that the site would have to allow the user what to donate towards. that way it would give the user a choice on what to support, new server or recording equipment.

there are certain obvious costs of running the site which of course must be cared for first...once all the overhead is covered, if there are additional funds available, then it wouldn't hurt to open a forum to suggestions as to what purchases would best serve the community (recording decks, new sources, etc.)

[Syco54645]

so phishblowz, just to clarify, if a site requires a good ratio, are you for or against ratio buying? just wonder as that post was rather long and i am tired.

[trustthex]

im pretty sure everyone feels that paying for ratio is weak...

[randytravis]

paying a site directly for ratio is wrong imo. I've been using torrents since early 2003 and been on the clean side of things (etree which accepts no donations) to private trackers which offer copyrighted materials. if you want to pay for bandwidth, get a seedbox and do that on your own. the site shouldn't be offering any perks for your donation, other than to give you a little star next to your name or something. who are you to sell my upload bandwidth to other people?

paying for server costs from donations is one thing, but to sell upload credit is pretty weak, imo.

[gtbrown77]

Reading through this has made me think a little about the whole "donation for ratio" thing. A few things come to my mind.

First...I will say that I am a member at several different torrent sites, and my ratio at ALL of them is 0.9 or better (cuz sometimes it's hard to seed when there are no leeches, and sometimes it hard to seed for days and days and days....). It's not that hard, and no, I have never paid money to get the ratio credit. But, there are people out there who will just leech and leech, and don't really care to seed - for whatever reason (I've got a few guesses though). If they want to donate money to help out the site and get ratio credit in return so they can continue to use the site, well, isn't that their prerogative? Sure, it's KINDA like "buying" bootlegs, but I would guess we've all bought our fair share (in the past), despite there being alternative methods to obtaining them (tape trades, cd trades, b+p, p2p/torrents, etc).

On the other hand...like I said, I'm a member at several sites and have maintained a good ratio at all of them because I will stay on a torrent until I've seeded 1:1 (or as close as possible, since I'm not quite at 1.0 at a couple). Sometimes that means I have to wait an extra day (or two) in order to dl something...oh well. I'm getting it all for free and because of the kindness of people I've never met (BTW - Hi all :wave: ). Buying your ratio credits is just being lazy (THAT'S the American way!), and it doesn't really add a whole lot to the "community" aspect of the whole thing, which is what (at least some of) these sites truly are about.

So, to sum it up, if some people would just share more, the whole "donation for ratio" thing wouldn't really be an issue (or if sites abandoned their ratio requirements). Really, it's not that hard. But, if you find it difficult to maintain the ratio required at any particular site and can financially afford to donate so as not to lose your privileges, then be my guest. I'll continue to seed so that everybody can benefit - rich or poor.

(Of course, on the other hand...exchanging donations for ratio credit is like the old practice of selling indulgences through the Church...but I won't go there :) )

[direwolf-pgh]

:popcorn: had a great night out.. still dont care.

admins can and will do as they wish - if you have not realized some sites are/were for profit.

... welcome to the real world.

it is ..what it is...some are honest/some are hit and run

from what ive seen over the decades.. it doesnt matter

[onerok]

Easy sailor-mouth, I would ask that you settle down and desist from posting libel about those who value an education. Take notice that libel is written and slander is spoken, however, I've not posted any libelous information about that particular site.

My distinction between donations and sales was on the money. In fact, many charities will strategically give small gifts in return for their customers' pledges to make sure their clients are bound by contract so they honour their pledges. One who makes a true donation is not bound by any such contact nor is their an exchange. These are actually classified as exchanges not as donations since donations are not enforceable by contract while exchanges/sales are. So now you know. ;)

Call me a sailor mouth? I have listened to your bullshit spread across 4 different sites, with your pretentious attitude. You are not some super educated know-it-all. No one is bound by any contract, no one is required to do anything, what the money is going for is always specifically stated, so give it a fucking rest. Why don't you go harass the makers of all the bittorrent clients? They ask for donations, not required, but if you use their program then you are getting a service, and if you donate then that's a transaction in your bullshit world, right? Why don't you start there at the source, and once again, go fuck yourself.

[uninvited94]

I see ZFS´s point, but let me say one thing about "donations" (on a certain site) are equal to selling bootlegs or "stolen goods": Your donation there gives you 1 GB /2 GB for free for 1 buck. 1 GB would be a completely filled 2-CD-set, for example. If you see these donations as "selling goods", you´d get a Double-CD-Set, mostly including artwork and stuff, for 1 buck, and you are not forced to donate. On Ebay, the same stuff of the same source with the same layout would bring certainly 10 times more. And people would buy it, maybe knowing that they would get it for free elsewhere (what several replies to my "warnings" to buyers make me think). Over here, in Germany, I´ve seen so many factory-pressed silvers of shows that have been upped on several trackers, offered in stores and conventions I was working at. You´d pay about 20 bucks for a cheap DigiPak-version of a David Gilmour-show in 2006, and I guess I´ve seen the whole tour been offered on CD/DVD, the same stuff as offered on Dime and elsewhere. The Earls Court-DVD of PF´s "The Wall"-Tour, as offered on here all the years, the same artwork and stuff, about 5 different versions over the years as Silver-DVDs, for about 30 bucks. If you go for "selling stolen goods", come over here. People buy it, and I´ve asked so many why they do it. Mostly why they feel a "proper pressed Silver-CD is better than a CD-R", all this bullshit. I can understand people who mislike it or think of donations as being used for selling that stuff or whatever, but I don´t see the proportions. As I´ve mentioned before, I can´t complain about being handled rudely on a certain site (and I don´t say this because I´m scared of being banned or whatever), that may happen, it did not happen to me until now, and if I´d feel unhappy over there, I´d leave that site.

[AAR.oner]

donations are for site costs -- server fees, maintenance, new servers, etc...simple as that

but donations for taping gear?!?! :wtf: :nono:

i think this thread, and the one it "stemmed from", show the changing nature of the collecting community -- the gimmegimmegimme attitudes, the this-show-has-to-be-recorded mindset [as if yer gonna die if you don't have a copy], a willingness to allow/encourage profiting to occur, and a complete lack of respect for tapers & their wishes...absolutely pathetic

[trustthex]

i think it has to do with the fact that there are alot of new people to the trading community, those who have never had to snail mail trade, etc... its instant gratification aar.oner thats killing this hobby. (thx for the hicks btw)...

i dont know if we will be able to teach patience without enforcement :wtf: so, i dont think thats a good idea. ive always liked this site for the reason of no enforcement, you know if you are shitty or not... re patience: i have been waiting years to get my hands on a lowgen copy of the pj show (7-5-98). years! i finally got it the other day, and am able to upgrade from 2nd gen cass > cdr... one more time, years!

also, this is the internet, and boy arguing sure is fun :grr: (there really isnt an emoticon for exhausted/tiredhead, although, beating a dead horse was close)

[direwolf-pgh]

donations are for site costs -- server fees, maintenance, new servers, etc...simple as that

but donations for taping gear?!?! :wtf: :nono:

....... and a complete lack of respect for tapers & their wishes...absolutely pathetic
serious... one of the funniest 'donation requests' I've ever heard from a trading community
- send us cash for shows & equipment :clap:
someone has some big stones asking for that !

...i didnt understand the second half Aaroner.. 'and a complete lack of respect for tapers & their wishes' <-- i didnt understand.

Or did you mean the fact that the admins didnt pull a show
when the taper said 'do not on post this show on this site please'
cause yeah... they should not post it..and taunt a taper.
kinda like..yeah ..fuck you.. we do what we want.
I thought that was very childish.

but it was a setup to help get the word out - that certain sites do some questionable activity.

its a huge black eye for that site.. they fucked up bad - and are in the spotlight.

[paddington]

I don't get the controversy here.

1) If you donate to a website, the money belongs to the admin to do as he/she pleases. If you don't trust the admin to do that, don't give.

2) Sites should never give anything to the donation flock in return that isn't available to everyone. If you do, you are selling access to the media, distributing it for profit.

Money and trading don't mix. If you want to donate to keep the meeting place running, great. Do that, and expect nothing more in return.

[entropy357]

This is all really about a few people having a personal grudge against a certain site.

[diggrd]

While reading this thread I was struck by a few things, ideas not cars or bricks or frying pans.

I think AAR.oner's comment of the change in the community and trustthex's point of instant gratification are spot on. As a taper and videographer of live music I rarely rush to get a show out to the web. I almost feel as though the tour deserves to have the spotlight and when the performer is out of the limelight that is when it makes sense to renew our passion for their product in recorded form. That is not to say that I have not taken full advantage of those such as RobC who routinely get them out within days if not hours of returning home. Frankly sometimes I'm just too busy going to the shows to worry too much about putting up a torrent.

The idea of elite status for donations makes me think about my own practice of purchasing VIP festival tickets. Personally I'm not looking for anything beyond a clean latrine for my extra dough. I have always over prepared for any event and ended up providing others with my own VIP amenities. So the perks are not a real big deal to me. In fact I revel in being among the hoi polloi and the craziness that ensues at big shows. I like to support the places I go to see live music so if I can afford VIP and help out a little more I do so. Since I pay little or no attention to ratios I personally would never buy ratio credit.

[U2Lynne]

I just want to clarify that this is just a discussion that was moved from another thread. I have no intention of changing the way we run things here. We have a donations page where I outline what our costs are for the month. Normally it is just our montly server fees ($238), but sometimes it is more (like the set-up fees for the servers which I choose to pay upfront in order to get a lower monthly rate). TTD also doesn't give any sort of perks to those that donate. Well, they get a Thank You email, but no special forums or special tracker or ratio credit. We have chosen to do it that way for many of the reasons already outlined in this thread.

[bodhisattva]

If OUR website (zomb) wants to ask OUR members to send in a few extra dollars so OUR website can buy some gear that people who have already purchased tickets to concerts can use to go out to tape shows to release to the public, than where is the problem with this?

When this request went up do you think thousands of dollars started rolling in? Is that the issue here? I believe since we asked for help with the gear we have received around $45 total. So far on the gear I have spent $175. Due to spend another $100-$150 easily, and that doesn't even consider the upkeep, peripherals, and the cost for the staff to send the gear back and forth. Its not an all inclusive paid trip as some people like to believe.

We also ask everyone who donates what they want the money they have sent in to go towards. So far all have said the taping gear.

If we don't bring in the total amount that I have spent, NO BIG DEAL, the gear will still go out, and we will still tape shows.

The fact that I have asked OUR members to help offset this cost should not concern anyone and I find it extemely funny that people on other websites are worried about what we do on ours.

Also we are not going to recognize any tapers whishes where they believe they can control who people share the data they've downloaded with. Our sites views on this are stated clearly on our front page.


Requests By Tapers

Posted on: 2007-05-25 22:31:46 GMT (17 hours ago)
Requests by tapers telling you where you can or cannot share a show you have downloaded should be ignored.

Tapers do not have the right to tell you who you can share your files with.

If you feel you owe respect to people who use source text files to spread hatred and ignorance than you need to re-evaluate your place in this world.

If you see someone making comments like this, stand up for yourself and let them know you are not going to let them control your data!

Thank you,
ZOMB Torrents


People that don't like the site, don't need to visit. But I understand being able to say, I am not these people, I am better, helps validate your existence, as people do it every day.

And if you really really think that people sharing music, anywhere, is hurting people, or the world or the scene even, (especially because some pompous person made a comment in a text file) than you need to do more than just hang out in the trading community.

[direwolf-pgh]

dude.. ya fucked up - and people called you out.

you should have thought things through a little better.

you pissed off some old tapers - then insulted them twice.

donations probably arent rolling in because the request is hilarious.

=======

im not going to pull any punches here..that is not my style.
and this is just my opinion. anyone can do as they wish.. dosent bother me.

[bodhisattva]

dude.. ya fucked up - and people called you out.

you should have thought things through a little better.

you pissed off some old tapers - then insulted them twice.

you need to step back and get over yourself - your donation request is a scam

donations probably arent rolling in because the request insults the community

think about it
donations never roll in. that is the point! do you think they do?

no one fucked up. the only thing that seems to be fucked up is the thinking of a few people, and I don't mind taking some time to talk it over.

there is no scam. we have stated clearly what we are asking for, if members want to help out, its there perogative. where is the scam? how are people being scammed? strong words.

I have no need to step anywhere. I am here, if you want to communicate I can continue to be here, communicate. Or, what, you want me to step back so you can libel and have no one call you on it?

I am not trying to argue with you either, but I am trying to understand your logic. Why am I any worse than anyone else? What makes others better? What is your major hang up here?

[direwolf-pgh]

I am not trying to argue with you either, but I am trying to understand your logic. Why am I any worse than anyone else? What makes others better? What is your major hang up here?
its all good in my book - this is just discussion - and perhaps it will smooth over a few things.

are you worse than anyone else? I doubt you are worse than me - I used to be a pirate. Yar!

What is my major hang up? I need to up my post count! :)

im making light of this... because I agree this should not be a site-on-site bashup.

but somehow Zomb has raised some questions...

1. why is his recording at your site - with a free ratio ..when you sell ratio credits?

2. selling ratio credits = selling boots (imo)

3.donations for recording equipment is a unique idea... im only curious how it pans out.

just a few questions.. nothing more to it. I enjoy all the sites.

======
and yes I change my posts often.. so always give me a few..it takes time for me to get the thoughts right

[Sebastian]

First of all I'd like to state my opinion about donations. I think donations are good if they are used to cover server costs and the whole thing is transparent to users. The way this site handles this (listing server costs, etc.) makes it very credible. That's one of the reasons why I chose to seed my recordings here.

If OUR website (zomb) wants to ask OUR members to send in a few extra dollars so OUR website can buy some gear that people who have already purchased tickets to concerts can use to go out to tape shows to release to the public, than where is the problem with this?


Of course you can do whatever you want on your site and with your site. I have a big problem with the way that site is run and the way you're asking for donations all over the place. That is why I did not want my recording on your site. I do not want to help you with your questionable ethics. That's all.

Also, I find it rather funny that soon after my initial seed here you posted the following:



if you don't want this recording there it won't be there. personally, if this recording was done by you I don't want it on my site. I don't need your negative energy effecting my tunes. (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=599906#post599906)


However, the recording ended up on your site (obviously against your wishes) and then you go ahead and post some childish comment to basically tell all tapers to fuck off. Who's generating the negative energy here?

I have been discussing the issue with some other tapers since. Many of them are planning on taping the Smashing Pumpkins on the current tour with top equipment. We have come to the conclusion that it would be best to run our own private tracker for tapers only. In the end, fucking with the supply of recordings will be the only thing you guys seem to understand.

btw: Thanks for putting the recording on your private HTTP server for everyone to download (without questionable donation requests and idiot mods). I think that's a very good idea for people who don't know how to use Torrents. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I appreciate it.

[bodhisattva]

its all good in my book - this is just discussion - and perhaps it will smooth over a few things.

are you worse than anyone else? I doubt you are worse than me - I used to be a pirate. Yar!

What is my major hang up? I need to up my post count! :)

im making light of this... because I agree this should not be a site-on-site bashup.

but somehow Zomb has raised some questions...

1. why is his recording at your site - with a free ratio ..when you sell ratio credits?

2. selling ratio credits = selling boots (imo)

3.
From my perspective this site, and some others, have allowed some trolls (some with obvious troll handles btw) to spread misconceptions and lies about our website and some people here took a big bite of the shit sandwhich.

This was tangled with the release, which is a totally different topic and I thought the topic was split due to this? Really though, if anyone feels people are wrong for sharing music they have downloaded, with anyone, anywhere, than like I have been saying over and over, rethink it, if you still feel the same, wait a few months, a few years, and than think over the situation again once you finally have some actual perspective and you'll see how foolish it was for a taper to even believe they could control where something went, and that they were the people setting up this entire dramatic scene.

We had nothing to do with creating these problems. Music will filter its way to ever dark corner of the net. There are countless sites hosting mp3s of his show, hubs, etc. And for anyone to use a personal vendetta against ONE person and say that 60,000+ members cannot upload the data the website is the lame thing going on here. Its not our job to police text files for peoples insane wishes for their release.

We delete mp3s, transcodes, shows that have obvious lossy sources. These are scene rules. There are no scene rules that say you need to bow down to the wishes of tapers. They could tell you not to listen to their shows at McDonalds, only TacoBell. Do you need to accomodate them? What they won't know won't hurt them? It shouldn't hurt them at all, because they shouldn't make comments like that, because they are unrealistic, and if they believe they can make comments like that and get upset when they are not followed to the T, its there problem and none of you should help them with their pity party!

[bodhisattva]

First of all I'd like to state my opinion about donations. I think donations are good if they are used to cover server costs and the whole thing is transparent to users. The way this site handles this (listing server costs, etc.) makes it very credible. That's one of the reasons why I chose to seed my recordings here.



Of course you can do whatever you want on your site and with your site. I have a big problem with the way that site is run and the way you're asking for donations all over the place. That is why I did not want my recording on your site. I do not want to help you with your questionable ethics. That's all.

Also, I find it rather funny that soon after my initial seed here you posted the following:



However, the recording ended up on your site (obviously against your wishes) and then you go ahead and post some childish comment to basically tell all tapers to fuck off. Who's generating the negative energy here?

I have been discussing the issue with some other tapers since. Many of them are planning on taping the Smashing Pumpkins on the current tour with top equipment. We have come to the conclusion that it would be best to run our own private tracker for tapers only. In the end, fucking with the supply of recordings will be the only thing you guys seem to understand.

btw: Thanks for putting the recording on your private HTTP server for everyone to download (without questionable donation requests and idiot mods). I think that's a very good idea for people who don't know how to use Torrents. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I appreciate it.

Yes Sebastian, I changed my mind. I realized the members of our site don't need my own will or feelings controlling their usage of music. I realized it was wrong of me to try to control them in this fashion, much how you were, so I changed my mind. Call it free will. Just trying to break the cycle of "sound control".

Tapers can do what they want with the supply of recordings. You aren't holding us hostage, you are holding the community hostage. But do what you want, as I've stated, we didn't start this situation, but we are part of the snowball effect. You put the dominoes in place and let the first one fall when you wrote your source text.

thats nice you are ok with the http downloads. From the start I have only wanted to get this show out to the fans. Such a joyous thing, which is pretty much why I was too dejected to even speak about this initially, as to me, this put a black cloud over a experience which could have been very wonderful for all fans involved. All of the new TSP on ZOMB has been ratio free downlods from the start, meaning people who download them don't have the bytes counted against them, but their uploaded bytes count. So its win-win. But as of last night we made the entire tracker ratio free until Tuesday morning. It's our ZOMB memorial day SuckAThon.

Good luck with your tracker. If its just for a handful of people just put up a forum and run flippy's tracker. You won't have to code anything and you can have it up in minutes.

[bodhisattva]

1. why is his recording at your site - with a free ratio ..when you sell ratio credits?

2. selling ratio credits = selling boots (imo)

3.donations for recording equipment is a unique idea... im only curious how it pans out.

just a few questions.. nothing more to it. I enjoy all the sites.

======
and yes I change my posts often.. so always give me a few..it takes time for me to get the thoughts right
sorry I missed these questions in your initial post, I hadn't read it sinice you edited.

1. all of the new smashing pumpkins shows released that are uplaoded to our site are set to be ratio free. this was a decision I made a few weeks back. It was to celebrate the bands return.

2. we don't sell credits. we do not sell anything. there are no buy now buttons and at no point is any sale implied. we accept donations. if the site wants, it will give people a free gift of bytes on their upload stats. we reserve the right not to do this. do people usually receive the bonus, yes. I also give bytes (or remove bytes from peoples download stats) to people all of the time, who have not donated. we don't ban people who have a bad ratio, people can always connect and share on our tracker. but the bonus bytes do help people have a positive ratio which seems to be a reflection of their self image. but the credits are not neccessary to share music on our website.

3. i honestly don't see the issue with it, especially since its a site that is about sharing music. I am positive I am not the only person who has asked for donations for recording equipment. Its a big www. And I'm sure others who have did not have such language used against them, and they were likely given words of encouragement. regardless, our website is very excited about this, there has been alot of words of encouragement, and it will move foreward. I cannot guarantee, and can just about guess, that the initial recordings will be crap. The budget gear (minidisc - sony ecm717/719) can give good results if used properly. Its by no means professional, and its not meant to compete with anyone. Only to ad more sources to the scene, to enhance our own sites releases, and to give back to the community. Its a positive thing, and by no means should be viewed negatively, as there is no competition insinuated, planned, or wanted. we've managed to coexist for years (zomb torrents has been up since 2003) with no issues.

[freezer]

So this entire thread is just because the site owner and admins at zomb are basically 'taper-unfriendly'???


Couldn't they have privately worked something out with the taper instead of disrespecting the source of the recording while they're passing it around?


:nono:



Tapers can do what they want with the supply of recordings. You aren't holding us hostage, you are holding the community hostage. But do what you want, as I've stated, we didn't start this situation, but we are part of the snowball effect.
if you don't want this recording there it won't be there. personally, if this recording was done by you I don't want it on my site. I don't need your negative energy effecting my tunes.
Requests by tapers ............. should be ignored.


Seems like someone got caught LYING and afterwards decided the best thing was to quickly rationalize a better answer to make it seem like there's no lie involved.

"I changed my mind....." :roflol:




Say, if I say I don't want any of my recordings shared at zomb, does anyone think that the zomb admins will honor/respect the taper's wishes?

No, of course they won't.......


They'll probably demand more. :D




But it will be fun watching them zombies scramble when their recordings are offered at other torrent sites within hours of going up at their site. (The ones they plan to record with the equipment purchased with 'donations'....)


These threads and "discussions" will almost certainly assure that scenario will occur.


It's gonna be interesting to watch when the shoe is on the other foot.....

;)








Looking forward to more of this discussion....... :lol

[diggrd]

I gotta say that I agree 100% that once you share it any control is history. That is just a holdover from the days when you felt a need to have something rare in order to persuade a fellow taper to give up the goods or to keep your stuff away from the boot labels and the rare instance to uphold a performers request.

As far as your site, it's yours and you can do as you please but I personally have given 2 to 3 times the amount you have received in your gear campaign to this site alone, and expect nothing more than a thank you email and continued access to one of the best things life offers me free live music.

I have also given away old gear to fellow live music enthusiasts in the hopes of getting more shows out there. I would rather see a request for unused gear than a request for money to buy new stuff, and I realize you could be buying used stuff. I collect gadgets and lots of them collect dust after a while.

It is the internet so we try not to take what members with "troll" names say too seriously just as we won't assign a predilection for universal enlightenment to some others

[bodhisattva]

"I changed my mind....." :roflol:

never changed your mind about something that has upset you?

I felt one way, later I felt another as I evaluated the situation closer.

Initially, I was quite dejected by a taper using such a great show to spread blind hatred.

They weren't making requests, they were dogging a community for no reason.

That was no friendly, and telling anonmyous people where they can share their data is not a rational request. A website should not have to honor such a request. Websites that do bend to inane requests like this do so because they choose to, not because they have to.

Tapers are not gods. For the most part tapers are great people, and I have known and helped many since the days of my youth following the Grateful Dead in the late 80's and early 90's. But tapers are not gods, and for a taper to get a complex like this it is wrong and it goes against the spirit of music and the spirit of sharing.

If others want to share music, why stop them? Why tell them you can't share with these people, they suck. makes no sense, and requests by releasers such as this are wrong and I still cannot logically understand why scenes based on sharing and spreading music have issues with people sharing music. Seems elitest to me, and its a damn shame that some groups feel they are so much better than others.

I don't think I am anything special, and for the most part every torrent site out there serves its purpose, I respect sites, their owners, and the people who make them happen.

As far as people who disrespect me for no apparent reason, I have no respect for them or their wishes.

[bodhisattva]

As far as your site, it's yours and you can do as you please but I personally have given 2 to 3 times the amount you have received in your gear campaign to this site alone, and expect nothing more than a thank you email and continued access to one of the best things life offers me free live music.

Thats really cool. Great sites like this rely on dedicated members for support, and definitely in more ways than just financial.

Its not a competition, and thats why I am trying to exhibit here.

So what if our site has members pitch in to buy some budget gear. Its only to spread FREE LIVE MUSIC to the masses.

We are one of the only sites who sets up ratio free weekends where we do not count bytes downloaded, only bytes uploaded.

This allows everyone who downloads a torrent to have their ratio increase and not decrease as no bytes are counted against them.

These weekends allow everyone to improve their ratios, just by sharing bandwidth with others and getting FREE LIVE MUSIC. this is an advance I urge other sites to look into, as it really does help people get out ahead of the game.

--

On a sidenote, I feel I have done my share of PR with the users of TTD. This is a great site, not sure why there was anomosity at all. There was never an intention for anyone to start trouble for anyone here. This whole situation was elaborately setup actually, kudos to the masterminds.

[rhinowing]

I don't see how anything like this helps the situation. It seems like all this message will do is piss off people and encourage them to donate less

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f129/sebi2704/various/zombidiots.png

[freezer]

never changed your mind about something that has upset you?

I felt one way, later I felt another as I evaluated the situation closer.

No you got caught in a lie. You lied to Sebastian.

If you hadn't made public proclamations that were being considered your site's policy, you really would be able to slough off your 'flip-flop' as just 'changing your mind'.

However you'd already made a comment, saying 'if this recording was done by you I don't want it on my site.'...

Its a little too late for "I changed my mind" after the person you're lashing out at reads at your words and accepts them as you would honor what you say.

You didn't honor what you said. Your site didn't honor what you publicly pronounced.

I'm sure to Sebastian you are a liar, and you'll always be a liar.


I wouldn't trust you either, after that.



And in looking at your words in the order you wrote them, and considering the anger that went into this quote:
if you don't want this recording there it won't be there.

Its hard to imagine that you didn't fully mean what you wrote when you wrote it.




Hey, well, it's pretty obvious you changed your mind. However, it's something that should make the entire music trading community skeptical of you and the zomb site, knowing just how quickly you "change your mind".....in matters regarding clairifications of your site's policies.





They weren't making requests, they were dogging a community for no reason.

so what, you think that somehow justifies you lying to the taper....publicly?
While representing your zomb site and that community?

If you speak while representing zomb and get caught in a lie, what does that say?



As far as people who disrespect me for no apparent reason, I have no respect for them or their wishes.

You know, you could have come out of this as a stand-up guy IF you'd only honored your word.

Now there's a massive discussion going on questioning your site's ethics, your personal ethics and that of your site's defenders.

How many millions of other concerts are out there that you could have shared and just left this one alone? Espacially after you gave your 'word"?

No, "you changed your mind" and consequently lost trust in the community for both yourself and your site.


You've made more than just a few here skeptical of your honesty, your integrity and the value of your given word. And it reflects on your site also.

[bodhisattva]

I don't see how anything like this helps the situation. It seems like all this message will do is piss off people and encourage them to donate less


dude, thats from earlier. I have amended that to explain the situation clearer. Post the new one or don't post it at all please.

[rhinowing]

dude, thats from earlier. I have amended that to explain the situation clearer. Post the new one or don't post it at all please.
my bad

[bodhisattva]

No you got caught in a lie. You lied to Sebastian.

If you hadn't made public proclimations that were being considered your site's policy, you really would be able to slough off your 'flip-flop' as just 'changing your mind'.

However you'd already made a comment, saying 'if this recording was done by you I don't want it on my site.'...

Its a little too late for "I changed my mind" after the person you're lashing out at reads at your words and accepts them as you would honor what you say.

You didn't honor what you said. Your site didn't honor what you publicly promounced.

I'm sure to Sebastian you are a liar, and you'll always be a liar.


I wouldn't trust you either, after that.



And in looking at your words in the order you wrote them, and considering the anger that went into this quote:


Its hard to imagine that you didn't fully mean what you wrote when you wrote it.




Hey, well, it's pretty obvious you changed your mind. However, it's something that should make the entire music trading community skeptical of you and the zomb site, knowing just how quickly you "change your mind".....in matters regarding clairifications of your site's policies.







so what, you think that somehow justifies you lying to the taper....publicly?
While representing your zomb site and that community?

If you speak while representing zomb and get caught in a lie, what does that say?





You know, you could have come out of this as a stand-up guy IF you'd only honored your word.

Now there's a massive discussion going on questioning your site's ethics, your personal ethics and that of your site's defenders.

How many millions of other concerts are out there that you could have shared and just left this one alone? Espacially after you gave your 'word"?

No, "you changed your mind" and consequently lost trust in the community for both yourself and your site.


You've made more than just a few here skeptical of your honesty, your integrity and the value of your given word. And it reflects on your site also.
I am having a hard time following your train of thought. everything is scattered about, but I'll do my best to focus on what seems to be a major hang up for you.

I changed my mind, we changed our policy. I think I made it pretty clear that initially I felt rather dejected about all of this, but as I evaluated the situation I changed my course of action.

So what If I posted different before, my thoughts on the matter changed, and I switched up how I approached the situation.

This entire thing has led me to reevaluate alot of things, and that is what communication is about.

its not about throwing slander and libel around and calling people liars, as its obvious you just want to perpetuate problems here, and its really un called for.

Posting here has helped me find the resolution I needed to fully understand where people are coming from here, and with that I have adapted my approach. Its perfectly normal for people to do this.

Nothing is set in stone. You'll get nowhere in this world if you are stubborn and not open to change.

[bodhisattva]

my bad
its ok, initially my message was too open ended, causing confusion.

people did not realize the message was just about a couple bad apples.

so, we clarified.

also, i had already posted that myself, here, earlier up the page. lol

[smashing0]

But it will be fun watching them zombies scramble when their recordings are offered at other torrent sites within hours of going up at their site. (The ones they plan to record with the equipment purchased with 'donations'....) :hmm:
i personally will be excited to see the music spread to another audience
:wave:

[freezer]

I changed my mind, we changed our policy. I think I made it pretty clear that initially I felt rather dejected about all of this, but as I evaluated the situation I changed my course of action.

So what If I posted different before, my thoughts on the matter changed, and I switched up how I approached the situation.

This entire thing has led me to reevaluate alot of things, and that is what communication is about.

You are damned good at avoiding answering directly, as pointed out earlier in this thread. :thumbsup

However....Your words were interperted as saying one thing when you made pronouncements about the policies of your site in a different thread.....which was NOT discussing ANY changes to your sites policies....

You posted (in anger probably) that you would not want his recording up at your site.....

Then you did it anyway.

THEN You say you changed your mind.

I suspect Sebastian thinks otherwise.

I know I do.

Why, it's because your actions weren't about community....you acted out of spite towards Sebastian....

That's as obvious as you 'changing your mind'......




As a taper, I think you and your site are untrustworthy.

That's pretty clear.









its not about throwing slander and libel around and calling people liars, as its obvious you just want to perpetuate problems here, and its really un called for.

No, I call bullshit when I see bullshit....and I see you as a liar.

Its that simple. You were caught lying.

If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck and it acts like a duck, why goddam it IT IS A DUCK....











I am having a hard time following your train of thought. everything is scattered about, but I'll do my best to focus on what seems to be a major hang up for you.


Try responding ONLY to this part if I've confused you previously when referring to your 'flip-flopping':

How many millions of other concerts are out there that you could have shared and just left this one alone?

Especially after you gave your 'word"?



Does your word mean nothing, bodhisattva?

[bodhisattva]

whatever dude, initially I felt passionately about not having it. but as I cooled down I realized if I am putting my will on this music, than I am just as bad as somone else saying it can't be there.

its a free world. if its legal, share it.

if you don't want your material shared, keep it to yourself.

simple.

as we reviewed the situation I stopped letting my opinions dictate the situation and I let the fans of the band do what they want.

and I'm not concerned what Sebastian thinks of me. I don't think highly of him, as he started trouble where no trouble exists.

and people like you, and some of the trolls on this site, want to perpetuate something that is over and done, its past.

policies get overturned, it doesn't make the old policies LIES! but view me as a liar, I do not care what you think.

[bodhisattva]

How many millions of other concerts are out there that you could have shared and just left this one alone?
Especially after you gave your 'word"?
Does your word mean nothing, bodhisattva?
my word is just the sentiments of the community I am a part of. I am not a dictator or a control freak.

our policies changed, regardless of how I felt passionately inside!

has nothing to do with my opinions, inside, which are only important to me and not worth putting on others.

and as far as other concerts, many are out there, most are welcome on ZOMB, as well as any new lossless Smashing Pumpkins concerts. As stated, its not my place to tell fans what they can share. People can do what they want with their bandwidth!

[freezer]

......but view me as a liar, I do not care what you think.

As you wish.

You got it, as you wish, your actions in this matter speak volumes about the trustworthiness of you and your site.

:rolleyes:

[Sebastian]

As far as I'm concerned this issue is over for me. It's impossible to fight ignorance. There will not be any further Smashing Pumpkins torrents from me. Simple as that. I don't have any hard feelings about this. A few individuals chose to fuck it up for everybody. I'm sure the Zomb folks will take over taping these shows in the future and seed them within 2 days of the show.

[zombfuckingsucks]

and to speak briefly on zombfuckingsucks' comment about selling "perks"...if the "perks" are only for the purpose of appearance and don't actually give you any additional access to anything then you can't really consider it a sale or exchange...it's kinda like saying if you do me a favor, I'll be your best friend......a sale IMHO has to actually requires a tangible gift of value in return for the payment...


I disagree with this interpretation. Otherwise prostitutes could use this argument as their defense for soliciting sex for money.

This is all really about a few people having a personal grudge against a certain site.

...due to its grossly unethical practices.

[bodhisattva]

As you wish.

You got it, as you wish, your actions in this matter speak volumes about the trustworthiness of you and your site.

:rolleyes:
exactly. we'll respect those who give us respect.

make a source text file about us, saying we suck, and likely you'll be stirring up trouble.

its simple.

its easy to see where to point the finger, for starting all of this and its certainly not me or my site. I am only here dealing with the fallout from a shitbomb people decided to drop on the scene.

[bodhisattva]

As far as I'm concerned this issue is over for me. It's impossible to fight ignorance. There will not be any further Smashing Pumpkins torrents from me. Simple as that. I don't have any hard feelings about this. A few individuals chose to fuck it up for everybody. I'm sure the Zomb folks will take over taping these shows in the future and seed them within 2 days of the show.
yes, deflect the fallout from problems you created onto us. Its ended for me too really, as its obvious where we stand. case closed. i'm done as well.

[Sebastian]

make a source text file about us, saying we suck, and likely you'll be stirring up trouble.


Show me that text file. It was never part of the torrent.

Its ended for me too really, as its obvious where we stand.

Yeah, for most sane people, that's quite obvious ;)

You should really listen to the new songs more. They could help burn the lies off your soul...

[bot]

A few individuals chose to fuck it up for everybody. you love your recordings too much. They are ok and I enjoyed it.
you not seeding is not the big deal you think it is.

it needed to be said. I dont like your "Im going to punish you" attitude.
its very silly.

[Sebastian]

you not seeding is not the big deal you think it is.

You're absolutely right. But from many e-mails I've received within the last 24 hours, I know most respectable tapers in the Pumpkins community are with me on this subject.

And this is not about "punishing" somebody. I just don't see me go through the hassle of seeding a show just to be disrespected by the very people I offer a service to.

[bot]

You're absolutely right. But from many e-mails I've received within the last 24 hours, I know most respectable tapers in the Pumpkins community are with me on this subject.

And this is not about "punishing" somebody. I just don't see me go through the hassle of seeding a show just to be disrespected by the very people I offer a service to.

You kept saying you are going to punish people. You must be very powerful.

I thought I saw 8 or 9 pages of Thank You for each of your seeds.
You are well respected. Dont be angry. Music is Fun !

[zombfuckingsucks]

And if you really really think that people sharing music, anywhere, is hurting people, or the world or the scene even, (especially because some pompous person made a comment in a text file) than you need to do more than just hang out in the trading community.

That's a straw man argument. Nobody is against music sharing, but when traders misappropriate funds and exchange music or money, you should expect there to be resistance.

[freezer]

exactly. we'll respect those who give us respect.

make a source text file about us, saying we suck, and likely you'll be stirring up trouble.

Threats now, huh?

From lies to threats .... what next?

You want respect....then you NEED to earn it.

Today, here, you sure in hell haven't.










its easy to see where to point the finger, for starting all of this and its certainly not me or my site. I am only hearing dealing with the fallout from a shitbomb people decided to drop on the scene.

The finger is pointed squarely at you and zomb...because YOU got caught lying while representing your site and community.....

When are you going to be able to understand that? You indeed did throw oil on the fire while claiming to be innocent in full view of your lies.

Wake up and smell the coffee.... if you had any integrity, you wouldn't be in this discussion at all.

You caused the shitstorm by diving in with your mouth wide open.

You don't like the shitstorm, then honor your word.

You wanna change policy, don't do it retroactively.

It only shows you to be exactly the liar you claim you're not.

[direwolf-pgh]

I thought I saw 8 or 9 pages of Thank You for each of your seeds.
You are well respected. Dont be angry. Music is Fun !
I saw this as well :clap: and yes..thank you for seeding - it is fun.

[bot]

dont be a kiss ass Dire. It doesnt suit you :lmao:

[The Govner]

Well......I glad as fuck that I don't give a shit about The Smashing Pumpkins who is apparently getting ready to make a HUGE cash grab from it's fan base! :lol

That being said.......I do take exception to this line of thought

never changed your mind about something that has upset you?

I felt one way, later I felt another as I evaluated the situation closer.

Initially, I was quite dejected by a taper using such a great show to spread blind hatred.

They weren't making requests, they were dogging a community for no reason.

That was no friendly, and telling anonmyous people where they can share their data is not a rational request. A website should not have to honor such a request. Websites that do bend to inane requests like this do so because they choose to, not because they have to.

Tapers are not gods. For the most part tapers are great people, and I have known and helped many since the days of my youth following the Grateful Dead in the late 80's and early 90's. But tapers are not gods, and for a taper to get a complex like this it is wrong and it goes against the spirit of music and the spirit of sharing.

If others want to share music, why stop them? Why tell them you can't share with these people, they suck. makes no sense, and requests by releasers such as this are wrong and I still cannot logically understand why scenes based on sharing and spreading music have issues with people sharing music. Seems elitest to me, and its a damn shame that some groups feel they are so much better than others.

I don't think I am anything special, and for the most part every torrent site out there serves its purpose, I respect sites, their owners, and the people who make them happen.

As far as people who disrespect me for no apparent reason, I have no respect for them or their wishes.As a taper who has spent a shitload of my own money over the years to attend and tape the shows I am somewhat insulted by your attitude that my hard work should be shared with no disregard to what my personal wishes may be for the dristribution of my master recordings! There is a reason why some of my shows that is over 20 years old are just now seeing the light of day and it was by being screwed over by bad traders or by having my recordings altered from the original form that it was recorded in! At least by offering them up here I can make sure that they are as pure as the master tape is!
Giving money to a torrent hosting site? I may sound cheap when I say I won't give a penny because I am giving up my master recordings to anybody that wants them with very little strings attached....and nobody as ever offered to "buy my recording equipment" or any other BS scam to try and pull out a few more shows! Just think how shoddy those recordings will sound....or even if they will bother to tape any more after they have had a bad sounding master recording or they get busted at the door? I wish I had a nickle for every time I wanted to call it a day!

And for saying that tapers think of themselves as "Gods".......you sure are acting like you are the "Saviour" for those who only want to take but not give back! Pot meet kettle.....

Sorry if I got off on a rant....but that post irritated the shit out of me! ;)

[zombfuckingsucks]

2. we don't sell credits. we do not sell anything. there are no buy now buttons and at no point is any sale implied. we accept donations. if the site wants, it will give people a free gift of bytes on their upload stats. we reserve the right not to do this. do people usually receive the bonus, yes. I also give bytes (or remove bytes from peoples download stats) to people all of the time, who have not donated. we don't ban people who have a bad ratio, people can always connect and share on our tracker. but the bonus bytes do help people have a positive ratio which seems to be a reflection of their self image. but the credits are not neccessary to share music on our website.


It doesn't get any more implicit than this:


ZOMB Torrents is funded by the kind members of this community. All funding goes towards the monthly server bills, bandwidth, extra hardware, upkeep, legal representation, and any other bills that the ZOMB site may encounter. Members who partake receive a gold star and it will show next to the name of all donors on many of the sites pages. As a sign of our appreciation for your generosity we reward all donors a free gift, depending on how much is sent. To be sure you are eligible to receive the full line of potential gifts we have to give make sure you give your shipping address to us when making the donation on the PayPal site.This will allow us to send the gift to your door when applicable. We have stickers, t-shirts, and some other surprises.

Thank You,
ZOMB Torrents Staff.

(Source: Zomb, Retrieved May 26, 2006)

[bodhisattva]

Show me that text file. It was never part of the torrent.

Yeah, for most sane people, that's quite obvious ;)

You should really listen to the new songs more. They could help burn the lies off your soul...
this will be my last post on the matter, as everything else is fluff from people trying to continue some battle.

I don't have your source. i have shared it with others, (right now around 2500 people total between AUD1 and AUD2) i did seee it tagged at the top of your post here, and I assumed it was in your source as well, but like I said, I had not viewed it, so I am wrong in saying it was in your source text. Your message of hate seemed to initially only be posted here.

As for lies and my soul.. you haven't the faintest idea whats going on with my soul, and i'm not sure you need to worry about that. we are all on our path, where you go with your life isn't my concern.

And it really was great of you to release your show, but if you planned on posting more negativity about other pumpkins fans when you release shows than maybe the scene is better off without your sources.

If other tapers want to chime in with you, thats their perogative. They must realize though that they are allowing your personal issues with one or two people control their relationship with the fans, which is low. You had issues with mixwell and JellyBelly, plain and simple. You can tell them its about people making money off your source, issues that seriously have no merit as no one, at least on our site, has gained a dime due to your source being there.

People who have connected to your torrent only see a ratio increase, as have not been counting download bytes. If you think it through logically you would realize that if it was a funding issue, we are giving it away for free, and allowing people to better their ratio with no negative effects. How can we be making money off of that if we are interested in supposedly selling credits? Do you understand?

Also, with the Direct Downloads I have donated the usage of three servers that I had sitting idle, in the name of zomb torrents. These servers have sent out nearly 2500 GB since the shows went on them. I had bandwidth to use on them, timing was right, and I felt obligated to share the music with anyone who wanted to download it.

Much of that devotion, to give this music to the fans comes from my years as an administrator on the official smashing pumpkins site and the official zwan site. I, along with many of you, had been waiting for this for years. Such a joyous occasion, and at least there were some facets that I could share this music with people without having to be made to feel like some leper for bringing people FREE LIVE MUSIC.

Those who are interested can see the post in the news section on the official smashing pumpkins site. http://smashingpumpkins.com/membernews_568

Sebastian, if you would like to continue to converse you can PM me here, possibly even email. I am not about continuing a grudge or perpetuating conflict. I prefer to resolve issues and I believe as time passes we will all be able to view the situation better.

I don't believe we were right or wrong, and I don't think you were really totally righteous or wrong either. It just happened, at least people got the music and at least one of the best bands to ever exist is touring again and the old songs live again.

And as stated, I'm not bothering with the other antagonizers here. Its over, there is no need to keep this going. I only hope for understanding and tolerance between all parties involved here. We're all in in it for the music, regardless how we all feel about each other.

[freezer]

Well......I glad as fuck that I don't give a shit about The Smashing Pumpkins who is apparently getting ready to make a HUGE cash grab from it's fan base! :lol

That being said.......I do take exception to this line of thought

As a taper who has spent a shitload of my own money over the years to attend and tape the shows I am somewhat insulted by your attitude that my hard work should be shared with no disregard to what my personal wishes may be for the dristribution of my master recordings! There is a reason why some of my shows that is over 20 years old are just now seeing the light of day and it was by being screwed over by bad traders or by having my recordings altered from the original form that it was recorded in! At least by offering them up here I can make sure that they are as pure as the master tape is!
Giving money to a torrent hosting site? I may sound cheap when I say I won't give a penny because I am giving up my master recordings to anybody that wants them with very little strings attached....and nobody as ever offered to "buy my recording equipment" or any other BS scam to try and pull out a few more shows! Just think how shoddy those recordings will sound....or even if they will bother to tape any more after they have had a bad sounding master recording or they get busted at the door? I wish I had a nickle for every time I wanted to call it a day!

And for saying that tapers think of themselves as "Gods".......you sure are acting like you are the "Saviour" for those who only want to take but not give back! Pot meet kettle.....

Sorry if I got off on a rant....but that post irritated the shit out of me! ;)


^^^ Agreed, most heartily.......been there and done that..... :thumbsup


And none of this ever needed to take place if the wishes of the taper weren't disregarded from nothing more than pure spite on the part of zomb and its owners and admins.


Surely somebody connected to zomb objected to putting that show up out of spite.

If not, that also speaks volumes negatively about that tracker and community.

[bodhisattva]

ZOMB Torrents is funded by the kind members of this community. All funding goes towards the monthly server bills, bandwidth, extra hardware, upkeep, legal representation, and any other bills that the ZOMB site may encounter. Members who partake receive a gold star and it will show next to the name of all donors on many of the sites pages. As a sign of our appreciation for your generosity we reward all donors a free gift, depending on how much is sent. To be sure you are eligible to receive the full line of potential gifts we have to give make sure you give your shipping address to us when making the donation on the PayPal site.This will allow us to send the gift to your door when applicable. We have stickers, t-shirts, and some other surprises.

Thank You,
ZOMB Torrents Staff.
(Source: Zomb, Retrieved May 26, 2006)
don't forget the part at the bottom:

All members are entitled to free gifts and zomb gear. If you would like to receive free gifts from ZOMB such as stickers or t-shirts, please contact us with your name and address.


later ya'll!

[The Govner]

^^^ Agreed, most heartily.......been there and done that..... :thumbsup


And none of this ever needed to take place if the wishes of the taper weren't disregarded from nothing more than pure spite on the part of zomb and its owners and admins.


Surely somebody connected to zomb objected to putting that show up out of spite.

If not, that also speaks volumes negatively about that tracker and community.I remember the "Freezer's Revenge" thread and I thought that the Zeppelin traders was a pack of assholes.....apparently the more things change the more things stay the same.......only the names are changed because "The Song Remains the Same!" :(

[gtbrown77]

Is it just me, or has this whole thing just gotten utterly ridiculous? I mean, it's like two kids in the sandbox who don't like each other fighting and arguing because neither one of them is big enough to either (A)say "I was wrong. I'm sorry" or (B) just stop talking to each other and let the whole thing die a quick death; like the guy who says the last thing is the one who wins.

Quite frankly, with all of this arguing and such, I think nobody wins. Tapers are holding back shows (which quite frankly is their right, since they own the master recording) and people are bickering back and forth, sometimes across multiple sites. And then, people who hear about this "great community" (or that "great community") come here (or go there) and see all of this foolishness and think to themselves "some 'great community' this is!"

Bottom line is that we're all human, and we don't have to like each other. But we should at least show respect to everybody, even if we don't agree with them. I agree with freezer

You want respect....then you NEED to earn it.

But when you feel disrespected by somebody else, isn't it pretty natural to come back at them slinging mud? I'm not saying it's right, but don't we all do that - at least from time to time? And to make matters worse, we all feel like it's our place to jump into the argument (yes, I realize I'm pretty much doing that here, but I am trying to stay neutral). This is definitely something that should have been kept private, but I also realize that is extremely tough to do when the comments (on both sides) are made in public places.

I have one question (each) for the two biggest players in this whole thing, then I'll go away (for the time being)

Sebastian: Did you really think that when you released this recording to the public that you could really keep it off of any particular site or stop it from being re-encoded to mp3 (which I understand has happened and is now circulating)?

Bodhisattva: You said you felt very strongly about not having this recording up on your site, but after talking to others there, you changed your mind. Why not stick to the courage of your convictions and let the fans there seek the recording out elsewhere?

[bodhisattva]

Is it just me, or has this whole thing just gotten utterly ridiculous? I mean, it's like two kids in the sandbox who don't like each other fighting and arguing because neither one of them is big enough to either (A)say "I was wrong. I'm sorry" or (B) just stop talking to each other and let the whole thing die a quick death; like the guy who says the last thing is the one who wins.

Quite frankly, with all of this arguing and such, I think nobody wins. Tapers are holding back shows (which quite frankly is their right, since they own the master recording) and people are bickering back and forth, sometimes across multiple sites. And then, people who hear about this "great community" (or that "great community") come here (or go there) and see all of this foolishness and think to themselves "some 'great community' this is!"

Bottom line is that we're all human, and we don't have to like each other. But we should at least show respect to everybody, even if we don't agree with them. I agree with freezer



But when you feel disrespected by somebody else, isn't it pretty natural to come back at them slinging mud? I'm not saying it's right, but don't we all do that - at least from time to time? And to make matters worse, we all feel like it's our place to jump into the argument (yes, I realize I'm pretty much doing that here, but I am trying to stay neutral). This is definitely something that should have been kept private, but I also realize that is extremely tough to do when the comments (on both sides) are made in public places.

I have one question (each) for the two biggest players in this whole thing, then I'll go away (for the time being)

Sebastian: Did you really think that when you released this recording to the public that you could really keep it off of any particular site or stop it from being re-encoded to mp3 (which I understand has happened and is now circulating)?

Bodhisattva: You said you felt very strongly about not having this recording up on your site, but after talking to others there, you changed your mind. Why not stick to the courage of your convictions and let the fans there seek the recording out elsewhere?
since you are being civil, i'll respond to you, as I'm all up for people feeling resolution through all of this.

if you read above, I did admint I was wrong, at least about the message being in the source text. I've only dealt with his source on multiple servers, haven't listened to all but one song to make sure the files were valid on the server, and I never read the actual source. I was wrong in saying his message about ZOMB was there, it was just in the post here.

as far as why I changed my mind. what I posted was based on my feelings alone. I am not a dictator of the site. We have more staff than I can name in a minute, and after receiving input from staff, doing my own re-evaluation of the circumstances, I realized it was silly to try to stop the source from showing up. People were going to post it.

I have respect for tapers. For the most part requests people have within sources as far as formats, etc are very reasonable. After some discussion we came to realize that it is not reasonable nor fathomable for a taper or editor who releases a show to try to control where that show goes, and its not within our scope to try to police every source text to make sure its allowed to be on a specific site.

To be honest, being that there was no message not to post it on ZOMB within his source text, people could have shared this on DC++ or directly and upped to ZOMB, as the source was not telling anyone to do it, just the post here.

So, the problem seems to reside on this site, not our site.

Also the disrepect from the start did not help the situation and only started the snowball on its way. I was not even aware of issues between Sebastian and members of my staff. People have personal grudges, and its no reason, at least in my opinion to make it play out against entire communities.

Hopefully this is the last post I need to make on this matter. If I need to follow up with a response or two for clarification, I will.

Alot of people want to paint me as the big bad. I have helped distributed around 2500 copies of the show. Does this make me great, no? Should this at least show our desire to share the love of the music, yes!

[zombfuckingsucks]

don't forget the part at the bottom:


later ya'll!

This is Zomb's proposition: "we reward all donors a free gift, depending on how much is sent."

Without swearing or shouting at me, could you please explain what this means? You're explicitly saying that the "gift" or purchase is incumbent upon how money is spent. Now you're saying all members can receive a gift. Doesn't this strike you as completely contradictory or have you decided to change your mind once again for the better?

[Sebastian]

Sebastian: Did you really think that when you released this recording to the public that you could really keep it off of any particular site or stop it from being re-encoded to mp3 (which I understand has happened and is now circulating)?

I knew it would probably be impossible. I was expecting it to turn up on the Zomb about a week after my initial seed here. I don't think I would have had as much of problem with that as I have now. I'm not even sure whether or not I would have even checked the Zomb myself. A friend of mine pointed out to me that the recording was being shared there almost immediately after I finished seeding it. And I found that to be rather disrespectful towards a taper (once again).

There still is no valid reason why the recording needed to be reseeded there. If this was all about sharing the music the Zomb mods could have just posted links to the TTD torrents on their site. But this was just a welcome opportunity for them to give me the finger. I can live with that, as I said earlier. It's no big deal for me.

Edit: Let me just add that the reasons for my dislike of the Zomb are not personal differences with staff members (c'mon, there are assholes everywhere), but rather the aggressive donation policy of that side. I think I have already elaborated enough on that earlier.

[bodhisattva]

"Depending on how much money is spent."... Without swear or yelling at me, could you please explain what this means? You're explicitly saying that the "gift" or purchase is incumbent upon how money is spent. Now you're saying
all members can receive a gift. Doesn't this strike you as completely contradictory?

read the text, nowhere does it say "Depending on how much money is spent"

you are changing the text.

If a member donates a dollar or two and they give their address we will likely send them a few stickers.

If someone is generous enough to donate a substantial amount of money they'll get more stickers, maybe someting even nicer.

No one is selling anything. No one gets to choose what they get. If we choose to send people who donated a gift, thats is our perogative. We are not selling anything. Anyone is eligible to get free gifts from us. We can send stuff to the entire membership. But donaters who give us their address are given the option to get the free gifts automatically. If the don't give their address, its ok. And they can tell us they don't want it.

Now, do you care to tell people why you have a personal vendetta against ZOMB? lay it on the table, what did you do to get banned? because I know, and it all goes back to friends of yours being banned for making rude and disruptive comments in our forums, attacking members for no reason at all.
Than everyone can see why you are such a "righteous" crusader running his unsubstantiated audits on our spending policies. yes again, another personal vendetta, but this time due to people breaking basic site rules about trolling, spamming, fighting.

[Phishblowz]

I disagree with this interpretation. Otherwise prostitutes could use this argument as their defense for soliciting sex for money.



ummmm...usually you are friends with the person you are doing the favor for in the scenario I purposed...if the hooker was gonna do ya anyway and you just felt like givin her some cash, then that would be the same thing, but in the case of prostitution, you were not going to have sex with her (or him :wtf: ) until you paid the money

if you don't actually get anything (except maybe an inflated ego) for your donations then, in my book, it's all good :thumbsup

[zombfuckingsucks]

read the text, nowhere does it say "Depending on how much money is spent"

you are changing the text.



Absolutely not, that was a direct quote from Zomb's donation proposition on its donation page and people who have seen it can attest that it is correctly quoted. Please answer the question.

[direwolf-pgh]

ummmm...if the hooker was gonna do ya anyway and you just felt like givin her some cash, then that would be the same thing, but in the case of prostitution, you were not going to have sex with her (or him :wtf: ) until you paid the money:thumbsup :) what site has hookers?! how much do you have to donate.

[ragu421]

Id like to chim in with my 2 cents.First off I have NO ratio because of a shitty computer and dial up service.I do however write and send a check when I can to help out.I could care less if they bought pie and ice cream with it.There HAS to be alot of work that gets put ino this site.Breaking up childish fights is one of them it looks like.Ive never heard anyone say you HAVE to donate or your ratio HAS to be 1:1 but then again nobody tells you you HAVE to download that dvd or show either.Ive met alot of really cool people here.Ive met alot of folks I feel really sorry for also.Ive gotton tons and tons of great music and dvd's I would otherwise NOT have been able to get {as most sites are going strictly torrent} and I feel blessed because of it.Ive been able to share that music and see someone else become as excited as I was when I got it.Really,what difference does it make where the money goes?As long as you can get up in the morning or whenever and get whatever it is you want,isnt it "all good?" Personally Id have to induce copius amounts of drugs just to be a moderator here sometimes.Jeez! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

[bodhisattva]

Absolutely not, that was a direct quote from Zomb's donation proposition on its donation page and people who have seen it can attest that it is correctly quoted. Please answer the question.
re-read the part you put in bold text a few responses up.

i don't see that text anywhere, and I have answered the question.

do you have a hard problem comphrehending what you read?

anyone on our site is eligible for free zomb gear. Just so happens when someone donates we have the option of getting their address automatically. If they choose to give it to us we'll send them a free gift. if someone who hasn't donated requests a free gift we will give them something as well. we do not force people to send us money.

please read what i write several times until you can fully comphrehend it before asking me the same questions over and over.

I'm finished talking with you about this, I'm not going to answer the questions for you again.

[bodhisattva]

:) what site has hookers?! how much do you have to donate.
you didn't hear, we started that last night.

we are going to put a few girls and guys through college.

lets hope the trolls get sarcasm.

:wave:

[trustthex]

i dont understand this use of sarcasm on the internet... :lmao:

[zombfuckingsucks]

No. But I have trouble comprehending the spelling of comphrehending.

You wrote that gifts are given "depending on how much is sent." So people will get what they paid essentially. How can you reconcile this and make the claim that it's not a sale. Stop forging excuses to dodge these questions. If you find yourself in a position where you can not rationally justify Zomb's actions, then take your ball and go home.

re-read the part you put in bold text a few responses up.

i don't see that text anywhere, and I have answered the question.

do you have a hard problem comphrehending what you read?

anyone on our site is eligible for free zomb gear. Just so happens when someone donates we have the option of getting their address automatically. If they choose to give it to us we'll send them a free gift. if someone who hasn't donated requests a free gift we will give them something as well. we do not force people to send us money.

please read what i write several times until you can fully comphrehend it before asking me the same questions over and over.

I'm finished talking with you about this, I'm not going to answer the questions for you again.

[trustthex]

i hope all you are happy...

it has just been brought to my attention that 3 horses have been killed in the course of this thread.

continue your banter.

[direwolf-pgh]

i dont understand this use of sarcasm on the internet... :lmao:
:( you mean he is lying again ....:cry: that is SO NOT NICE !

im never gonna meet any hot babes on the internet. :disbelief this sucks

[bodhisattva]

No. But I have trouble comprehending the spelling of comphrehending.

You wrote that gifts are given "depending on how much is sent." So people will get what they paid essentially. How can you reconcile this and make the claim that it's not a sale. Stop forging excuses to dodge these questions.
obviosuly you understood the typo if you wrote the correct word.

we will recognize those who have sent more. maybe we'll even give them a special colored star, how do you like that? does that sound like a good transaction to, if we give them an online star, will that count as a transaction in your book?

christ dude, you are upset that people will receive 25 cent stickers? get off your high horse and find something more important to center your energies on. any member of our site can have the stickers, ANYONE!!!

if we choose to give a donor more stickers, thats our choice!!!

let that sink into your skull for awhile. you are like a broken record, you make me repeat myself so often that you have me a little irked. its obviously we view things entirely different. you aren't a member of my site, so none of it concerns you.

anything the ZOMB has to offer, we don't offer you.

[zombfuckingsucks]

obviosuly you understood the typo if you wrote the correct word.

we will recognize those who have sent more. maybe we'll even give them a special colored star, how do you like that? does that sound like a good transaction to, if we give them an online star, will that count as a transaction in your book?

christ dude, you are upset that people will receive 25 cent stickers? get off your high horse and find something more important to center your energies on. any member of our site can have the stickers, ANYONE!!!

if we choose to give a donor more stickers, thats our choice!!!

let that sink into your skull for awhile. you are like a broken record, you make me repeat myself so often that you have me a little irked. its obviously we view things entirely different. you aren't a member of my site, so none of it concerns you.

anything the ZOMB has to offer, we don't offer you.

...and the increased download power that Zomb staff have been advertising and spamming on other message boards to entice people to purchase from Zomb? Yes I recognize that it is your choice to sell these things, but it's an unethical and illegal choice. It's also not a typo if you spelled it incorrectly the same way twice, while accusing me of comprehension problems for the purpose of avoiding questions

[bodhisattva]

:( you mean he is lying again ....:cry: that is SO NOT NICE !

im never gonna meet any hot babes on the internet. :disbelief this sucks
yes, i am a bad bad man. fear me, i will eat your neopets if you have them. i will record their virtual screams and torrent them on my site. i am evil. fear me. i share music.

[bodhisattva]

...and the increased download power that Zomb members have been advertising and spamming on other message boards to entice people to purchase from Zomb?
i am done answering your BS questions. stop grabbing at thin air and pretending you have something.

if members of zomb are posting anywhere its because of trolls like yourself starting problems.

if we get new members, great. members are constantly signing up, its not more money, its more bandwidth, as this is bit torrent, and every byte helps!

[direwolf-pgh]

yes, i am a bad bad man. fear me, i will eat your neopets if you have them. i will record their virtual screams and torrent them on my site. i am evil. fear me. i share music.
:mad: i want sexy girls

the City of Tape has sexy girls in thongs!
http://www.tapecity.org/showpost.php?p=71289&postcount=10

TTD has lynne & quite a few others!

you should get some hot babes at Zomb :thumbsup its good for moral

[bodhisattva]

:mad: i want sexy girls

the City of Tape has sexy girls in thongs!
http://www.tapecity.org/showpost.php?p=71289&postcount=10

TTD has lynne & quite a few others!

you should get some hot babes at Zomb :thumbsup
only donors who get access to the super uber ultra privileged section get to see our hot chicks. its 24/7 cyber. we almost forgot the pumpkins were getting back together it was so intense.

and btw, we have no special section for donors. never have, never will. i'm a bad man.

[possessed]

I have no problem donating to sites I trust (trust is the keyword). I've given money to several that I felt deserve it including this one. When the new servers were coming in and TTD was behind the money curve I gave some cash. Not because I felt obligated, but because I've known Lynne for like 5 years and trust her and how she operates this site. I don't want to see this place go down so I keep an eye on the operating cost here. Should I, as a paying member, demand accountability? Depends on the site. But here, I trust Lynne and what she has set out to accomplish. A free and open trading site with very little restrictions except to keep the trade pool clean. Share ratios aren't enforced like other sites, money gifts buy you nothing but a sense of helping the community and it's one of the most helpful communities around. How many other sites give their members such helpful techno help? Rarely does a site give such unselfish help to the community. Yes, there are a few bad apples, but for the most part the technobabble section here is unsurpassed. If they don't have the answer, they have the link.


Lynne, you have a great site and I respect you tons for doing what you do and still maintaining a great marriage and family. If we never meet, you will always be a friend to me. http://iconhell.com/i/iconhell_babierykiel_ILoveYouu.gif

[Phishblowz]

I am completetly unaware of the personal aggressions held by those on this thread...I am not really a ZOMB user, though I have been there before and got some cool Floyd stuff (thanx to Zomb for that) and I also don't care for the Smashing Pumpkins too much, so all of the history is lost on me...but strictly from lookin at previous comments and trying to put it all together, I am noticing a lot of problems on both sides of the fence

first I think it's inappropriate to expect people to respect your wishes when torrenting stuff...people will use free-will and do as they please...this is why lots of old-school folks didn't share their masters in the first place back in the day, because they didn't want people fuckin with it and the only way to do that is to keep it to yourself...of course I'd rather see things shared nicely, but asking people to not torrent somewhere and getting mad because are people are gaining access to your stuff is kinda childish...but if I read correctly that it was posted there almost as soon as it completed here, then it does sound like someone was deliberately trying to piss of the uploader, so whoever put it on Zomb is a dick for doin it (knowing it would stir up a shitstorm) and the uploader was askin for trouble by putting rules on the sharing of the music...once I dl it, it's mine...I will respect the idea of not remastering it, or mp3ing it for further distribution, but if I think there is interest elsewhere, and I think it's a good show, then I'll upload it to reach a maximum audience...the Zomb policy saying something to the effect of "fuck the tapers" (which I know is a gross misinterpretation, but I don't remember exactly what it said) seems to invite a bad attitude and it should be expected that tapers may take offense to the idea that you encourage people to go against tapers wishes...but on the other side, I think if a taper is sharing his source, the only rule should be to try and share it with as many people as possible for maximum enjoyment...a lot of this seems foolish to me...I think when you share the music, it's all or nothin...once it's out there, it's free as a bird...and the tapers should have enough sense to realize this when they decide whether or not to share it

FWIW I think bodhisativa should have been smart enough to keep his emotions out of the picture when discussing site policy...you knew you were heated when you made the comment about not sharing Sebastians stuff on your site...and you knew that you wouldn't hold to that...that would be punishing your members for your personal disagreements, and you knew that...I appreciate the idea that you changed your mind...but it seems that after the whole thing blew up, you realized you were gonna come out lookin like a dick and backed off of your statement...of course you're allowed to rethink things (constructive commentary is great for that) but you should have known better than to allow personal feelings to affect you as an adminstrator

all parties concerned here sound like normal, decent folks, and I think it's a shame how something like this can bring out the worst in all of us, and yes it reflects poorly on all parties involved...hopefully there can be peace in the valley once again (ummm...did we ever have that???) because all of this BS really takes away from the spirit of sharing that deep down, I think we all try to perpetuate...hopefully we can all find a way to put htis behind us and have fun with it

I think Sebastian is wrong for sharing his tapes and getting angry when they are shared elsewhere...come on dude, you HAD to see that comin a mile away...you can't honestly react with shock and offense at an obvious outcome can you...sounds like you did it strictly to get the argument with Zomb started in the first place (but again, I know little of the history, so pardon any glaring inaccuracy or omission of facts...I am only making my opinion on what I've gathered here)

I also think that bodhisativa is wrong for the fact that he should never have fought with Sebastian in the first place and got into the whole "screw you, your tapes aren't welcome on my site" thing...both of you should be ashamed of yourselves...lots of kind folks who just want to enjoy good music are in the middle of two people personal disagreements, and that's not right...this whole thing should have been left private...the point of this excercise was to embarass bodhisativa in a public forum and bring to light things about his site that you disagree with...there were better ways to do this...I think you both come off lookin a little stupid for it honestly (i'm sorry if I just really pissed one or both of you off...as I said, it seems you are both reasonable people that would otherwise be well-respected)

and lastly about the Zomb donation policy...giving people stuff for donations is wrong...I don't really see any problem with stickers or a gold star or anything, but if people can get free stuff (no purchase necessary, so to speak) then so be it, but if there is something that states that you give them stuff based on the size of the donation (which I can't find that page on the Zomb, but I believe I heard bodhisativa confirm that they give more to the larger donaters) then that IS wrong...even if that's what you choose to do (which is your perogative) announcing that larger donations receive more (or better) "gifts" invites the accusations...if it wasn't stated that way, who really cares what you give the donaters, but announcing that more (or better) stuff is given based on the size of the donation is wrong, and IMHO something like that shouldn't be stated as policy...I hope you guys know that I don't really think more or less of either of you and I am just adding my opinions to help calm the situation...hopefully you read this with an open mind and don't just rip into me for my "ignorance" of the big picture...I'm just hoping that two otherwise decent individuals may find a peaceful resolution....even if that resolution is to agree to disagree

in closing I believe that you should share with no strings attached or on't share at all...I'm sure you could vine it to your friends who you trust to keep things private if need be, but if you feel like you need to share (a noble thing to do BTW...props for your efforts in recording AND sharing) then you must accept that the source will be shared far and wide...frankly, I think you should be honored that other people were so happy with your work that they decided to share it on another site to reach a different audience (regardless of your opinions of the administrator) your work was appreciated and that's why it is getting major circulation...although it may leave a bad taste in your mouth the way it was done, you should still feel some sort of pride in the fact that others felt the need to share it elsewhere...it's a testament to the quality of your recording that it was so good they had to share it far and wide

lastly, I feel that Zomb has a right to do what they please, and as long as they are open and honest about what they do, whether or not it's "ethical" is your call, and if you feel it's not legit, don't go there...but if bodhisativa allows personal feelings to govern the way the site runs, then that becomes dishonest...the only reason you "changed your mind" is because you knew from the get go as soon as you calmed down that you made a poor decision (nothing wrong with that BTW...we all have been know to do that from time to time) but "flip-flopping" based on your emotions at the moment will lead to lots of changed policy, and if the policy changes all the time to bend to the emotions of the admin then I can easily see how people are turned off by your site...you really oughta get to know exactly how you feel about every aspect of the site (maybe open a forum for discussion to solidify your postion if need be) but make a policy that you are proud of and willing to stick with and stick with it...if you don't know how you feel about something, don't address the issue till you gave it a lot of thought and are ready to defend your position...it seems your anger got the best of you and led you to speak for the site (inappropriately) and opened a whole can of worms...this probably could've been avoided by not responding in haste, and saying something to the effect of "I will only remove torrents at the request of the band" or "people are allowed to share what they please on my site, and I won't stop them from sharing because you disapprove" or something well thought out and decent sounding, and all of this could have been avoided...I realize this is a lengthy post and I'm sorry, but I hear some really good people saying some really fucked up shit, and I'm hoping I can try to be a voice of reason for you...not that I am any better than anyone else, but sometimes an outsider can see things without emotion and therefore be a better judge of the situation...although it's far to late to make a difference now, hopefully my comments will help you both to make better decisions in the future...you're both kinda getting what you deserve for acting strictly on emotion and not thinking logically...Sebastian knew that he had no control over people sharing at Zomb, and bodhisativa knew he wouldn't be able to police his community to slight Sebastian...you both fucked up and it's all comin bak on ya...I personally don't see a whole lot I like at Zomb, and I don't really care for their policies, so I don't bother to go there, but I wouldn't mind if Zomb members are sharing something I upped here...trying to stop assholes from having access to stuff that's in circulation is futile (I learned that in the ratio discussion thread) and the only thing you guys accomplished was bring the public attention to your personal situation...hopefully you guys are mature enough to let it go and move on and learn from this to be even better folks than you were before this mess...good luck guys, I wish you all the best...sorry if I am a little offensive, but that's my 2 cents (alright this one was at least a nickel...maybe even a dime, but that's what I think)

P.S. this boondoggle only goes to show how good a job U2Lynne does here...I don't think I've ever heard anyone question her authority...I may disagree with some of the things sh does, but I respect her and know that she has a clear idea of what is right and wrong, and while she is willing to "change her mind" it is rare (if ever) because she has a clear vision and is willing to defend it...God bless you Lynne for having a great site...it's obviously rare to find a site where everyone agrees on the policies (for the most part) and situations like this only magnify how great a job you do here...keep up the good work :clap:

as that Fantastic Four guy says....FLAME ON :lol

[Phishblowz]

WOW :wtf:

did I really just rant that much??? HOLY SHIT!!! sorry, but I think the points were all valid and needed to be said...sorry to make you all read that much...but hopefully it wasn't a total waste of time...I meant well guys :D

[entropy357]

You posted (in anger probably) that you would not want his recording up at your site.....

Then you did it anyway.


No, he was upset and said in anger he didn't want the recording on the site. But It was someone else who actually uploaded it.

If you want to pick over every word stated in a very heated situation we are going to get nowhere.

All this arguing really doesn't really help anything.

[direwolf-pgh]

:cool: you rock Phishblowz

you have an excellent writting style & enjoyed reading your thoughts.

-think you hit a lot of nails on the head squarely imo. :thumbsup

[entropy357]

There still is no valid reason why the recording needed to be reseeded there. If this was all about sharing the music the Zomb mods could have just posted links to the TTD torrents on their site. But this was just a welcome opportunity for them to give me the finger. I can live with that, as I said earlier. It's no big deal for me.

Sebastian, I believe the message "DO NOT SHARE AT THE ZOMB (ZOMB SUCKS!)" in your original text file started this. I noticed you seemed to have removed that message, I appreciate you doing that. Let's try work things out and stop arguing.

Like it or not zomb is a major smashing pumpkins torrent site, and I think is it highly unrealistic of you to expect the first smashing pumpkins show in 7 years to not be shared there. Seriously man, think about it.


Edit: Let me just add that the reasons for my dislike of the Zomb are not personal differences with staff members (c'mon, there are assholes everywhere), but rather the aggressive donation policy of that side. I think I have already elaborated enough on that earlier.

I've already tried to explain the zomb donation thing once before as bodi has also. No one is ever required to donate at the zomb. I'm not sure how much clearer it can get than that.

This whole thing has gotten blown up way out of proportion. Can we all just drop it now? Or at least soon? Please? This is all supposed to be about the music. This is leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth and I hope it ends soon.

[freezer]

No, he was upset and said in anger he didn't want the recording on the site. But It was someone else who actually uploaded it.

If you want to pick over every word stated in a very heated situation we are going to get nowhere.

All this arguing really doesn't really help anything.

He ALLOWED it. And if you want to pick over every word stated in a very heated situation we are going to get nowhere .... :rolleyes:

Instead, why don't you zombs admit that you guys just wanted to fuck the taper and get over yourselves and get on with your lives.

The pettyness displayed here by bodhisattva in this thread coupled with what transpired on your site in relation to this recording is tremendously detrimental to the community that you're trying to serve. And the worst part is that it really stems from the zomb admins for allowing/encouraging this to transpire.

You seem like a voice of reason, entrophy357.

Are you willing to truthfully answer one question: Did NO mods or admins at zomb disagree with the decision to disrespect this taper and allow this at zomb?

Honestly, entropy357, doesn't any admins at zomb believe in common courtesy? Don't you think you guys possibly could have given this a few days to cool off?

That's why I believe bodhisattva's myriad 'explanations' were rationalizations and lies.

You guys at zomb knew what you were doing and its nothing more than a case of spite on your parts. Admit it.

Your site owner proved today that zomb is taper-unfriendly. When he could have looked like a champ in honoring his word, he chose to be a moral coward in not honoring his word.

This is nothing more than a case of "we got your tape Sebastian, nya-nya-na-na-nya....."

If bodhisattva had admitted that, well, this thread would have been done a long time ago.

This discussion would be finished and you guys would have "clean" consciences (albeit still have that black eye for your contempt towards a taper while passing his work around) and the rest of us would know exactly what to expect from the zomb admins.....as if it's not evident now. :rolleyes:

[bodhisattva]

He ALLOWED it. And if you want to pick over every word stated in a very heated situation we are going to get nowhere .... :rolleyes:

Instead, why don't you zombs admit that you guys just wanted to fuck the taper and get over yourselves and get on with your lives.

The pettyness displayed here by bodhisattva in this thread coupled with what transpired on your site in relation to this recording is tremendously detrimental to the community that you're trying to serve. And the worst part is that it really stems from the zomb admins for allowing/encouraging this to transpire.

You seem like a voice of reason, entrophy357.

Are you willing to truthfully answer one question: Did NO mods or admins at zomb disagree with the decision to disrespect this taper and allow this at zomb?

Honestly, entropy357, doesn't any admins at zomb believe in common courtesy? Don't you think you guys possibly could have given this a few days to cool off?

That's why I believe bodhisattva's myriad 'explanations' were rationalizations and lies.

You guys at zomb knew what you were doing and its nothing more than a case of spite on your parts. Admit it.

Your site owner proved today that zomb is taper-unfriendly. When he could have looked like a champ in honoring his word, he chose to be a moral coward in not honoring his word.

This is nothing more than a case of "we got your tape Sebastian, nya-nya-na-na-nya....."

If bodhisattva had admitted that, well, this thread would have been done a long time ago.

This discussion would be finished and you guys would have "clean" consciences (albeit still have that black eye for your contempt towards a taper while passing his work around) and the rest of us would know exactly what to expect from the zomb admins.....as if it's not evident now. :rolleyes:
dude, we will hold contempt for anyone who posts on a message board we suck, especially when most is based on problems they had with individuals.

this has ended. i have asked my staff to stop responding here. if they don't, its their perogative, but I would prefer this just to end, as people like you seem to twist it around with every post.

the negativity started with the initial post. we didn't start the negativity, so please stop touting the idea that we did.

this is over, everyone, seriously. if sebastian and I feel there is something to talk about, I'm sure we will, but I dont it will happen, and doesn't matter either way.

there is no reason for anyone to speculate about anyones reasoning or intentions. its not your place to dissect anyones psychology or actions. worry about yourself and the impact you make on the world. we didnt come aroudn to shit on any of you, yet we were pulled into this mess.

what more is there to admit, I said I changed my mind based on the input from other staff. I jumped the gun with my own feelings, but at no point did my feelings ever impact the policy on my site. At the time I said I didn't want to see it on the site it was not near completion. Before it was even seeded we had come to the conclusion that it was delusional for them to think it would not be on zomb, and as a site its not our responsibility to bow down to delusional requests.

the show is on many sites in many formats. somoene has also uploaded the 24bit version to zomb as well. from their perspective nothing says they cannot, and from our perspective based on this entire experience nothing says we should stop them.

and yes, i am sure the person who uploaded it to the site, knew what they were doing. they managed to get it uploaded, they seeded it well, so yes, they knew EXACTLY what they were doing. they were sharing music with people that was on their computer, we all have that ability and right to use those ports based on our agreements with our ISPs.

you can go on feeling extremely righteous, another crusader if you want. you have that right to be an internet superhero spreading truth and justice in your own fantasy world.

we've sent out THOUSANDS of copies of the first smashing pumpkins concert, yes I'd say this was a huge detrimental impact. GET REAL.. you are still trying to paint people who share music with anyone who wants it as bad, and its making you people look silly.

YES WE SHARED THE RELEASE! BY TOMORROW OVER 3,000 PEOPLE WILL HAVE DOWNLOADED IT VIA OUR TRACKER AND DIRECT DOWNLOAD SERVERS. WE ARE HORRIBLE FOR SHARING THIS FREE MUSIC WITH ANYONE WHO WANTED IT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, SIMPLY MONSTERS!

Ideas changed, and it seems even the request to not share it on ZOMB is gone as well. Surely he is not a liar for changing his mind, or at least removing the antagonizing line. Someone changed their mind, policy, and it doesn't make them a liar. People change their mind/policies all of the time.

and you all might not view me rosey, it doesn't really matter. I won't be hanging out here much longer anyways, and you don't ever need to see me again. But, if you feel better continuing to feel negative ranting and raving about the same thing over and over, its up to you.

those of you who I have answered and you continue to say the same thing over and over, I AM DONE, for good. I have explained why, how, where, and when. its all out in the open, no one hid anything.

to everyone who has read this, i feel bad for you. i apologize to everyone for wasting your time. I shuldn't have entertained most of these responses, and focused solely on people who seemed to make sense, but albeit, I wanted to make sure I gave time to all of your concerns.

[freezer]

jeezus, that was sure a mouthful of nothing but ranting and rationalizations.

Nobody said anything about sharing or not sharing.

Its your integrity and your site's integrity that's been called into question by your "Fuck the Taper" attitude.





And I see that entropy357 probably won't be answering whether or not any zomb admins had the stones to call bullshit on the "Fuck-the-Taper" policy at zomb. :rolleyes:

[U2Lynne]

I've been gone most of the day and will read over the whole thread soon, but I saw it suggested that since bodhisattva is an admin, he shouldn't have said he wouldn't share the show at his site, but then it was. As an Admin here, I have to say that sometimes you respond to posts as an individual, not an admin. How can you not? But, unfortunately, you can't choose to be wearing your individual hat instead of your admin hat.


(Oh, btw, I'll tell all you guys and anyone who will listen, my daughter graduated from college today in MIS with a 4.0! It was awesome and I'm so damn proud of her!)

[bodhisattva]

I've been gone most of the day and will read over the whole thread soon, but I saw it suggested that since bodhisattva is an admin, he shouldn't have said he wouldn't share the show at his site, but then it was. As an Admin here, I have to say that sometimes you respond to posts as an individual, not an admin. How can you not? But, unfortunately, you can't choose to be wearing your individual hat instead of your admin hat.


(Oh, btw, I'll tell all you guys and anyone who will listen, my daughter graduated from college today in MIS with a 4.0! It was awesome and I'm so damn proud of her!)
correct Lynne, but I am just an individual here. Although I may have posted here my intentions for my site, they never were enacted. Even things I feel very passionately about we do not do on ZOMB. I wish I always got my way, haha. But we never told ZOMB users that it could not be on the site.

Its all semantics now, and really of no consequence. But i totally I understand what you are saying.

I can post all day about how I'd like the site to be run, and to a major degree what I want to get done, does get done, but like I said, I'm not a dictator, and as it was mulled over, it was clear to me my feelings were not the proper course of action to be taken.

Anyways, its a long read. If you actually do read this all, than as stated by many of your fans here, you are definitely a great admin. Not sure I could even stomach this all again.

[smashing0]

And I see that entropy357 probably won't be answering whether or not any zomb admins had the stones to call bullshit on the "Fuck-the-Taper" policy at zomb. :rolleyes:the zomb have about 40 staff members
and we're not run by some megalomaniacal dictator, we all have our thoughts and opinions on this situation
some thought it was in bad taste to bring it over right away
some thought that the first announcement was probably poorly worded
but ALL thought that sebastian was unjustly attacking our site
so the general consensus was that they'll get pissed no matter when it came to zomb so why not make the zomb people happy and seed it ASAP
the torrents on both sites have been very well seeded since the first completion

[trustthex]

(Oh, btw, I'll tell all you guys and anyone who will listen, my daughter graduated from college today in MIS with a 4.0! It was awesome and I'm so damn proud of her!)

congrats, not easy to do... hope you got her something really nice (and hopefully not a computer) :lol

[freezer]

the zomb have about 40 staff members
and we're not run by some megalomaniacal dictator, we all have our thoughts and opinions on this situation
some thought it was in bad taste to bring it over right away
some thought that the first announcement was probably poorly worded
but ALL thought that sebastian was unjustly attacking our site
so the general consensus was that they'll get pissed no matter when it came to zomb so why not make the zomb people happy and seed it ASAP
the torrents on both sites have been very well seeded since the first completion

So ALL are OK with the "Fuck-the-Taper" policy?

:wtf:

[smashing0]

it's not a "Fuck-the-Taper" policy
it's a "What the fuck are you talking about I can't share?" policy
ZOMB allows ALL lossless, non-commercial material from taper-friendly bands

We love tapers! without them we wouldn't have this great hobby. We just don't like playing politics and favourites.

If I were to tape a show, like I hope to start doing soon and tagged it with "Only listen to on Tuesday nights in the light of a full moon" should you listen to my request? No! That's just stupid, and to us Don't share a Smashing Pumpkins recording on a tracker (loosely) founded on the Smashing Pumpkins sounds just as stupid to us :hmm:

Honest, well meaning and reasonable taper requests will always be honoured by ZOMB Staff, but we'll still listen to recordings on a Wednesday even if we're told not to

[U2Lynne]

correct Lynne, but I am just an individual here. Although I may have posted here my intentions for my site, they never were enacted. Even things I feel very passionately about we do not do on ZOMB. I wish I always got my way, haha. But we never told ZOMB users that it could not be on the site.
No, you aren't an Admin here, but I think you know that you are seen as one wherever you go. I sometimes hate that fact that I register with either U2Lynne or Lynne on all the sites I go to. No matter what I say, I am held accountable here.
I can post all day about how I'd like the site to be run, and to a major degree what I want to get done, does get done, but like I said, I'm not a dictator, and as it was mulled over, it was clear to me my feelings were not the proper course of action to be taken.

Anyways, its a long read. If you actually do read this all, than as stated by many of your fans here, you are definitely a great admin. Not sure I could even stomach this all again.
I hear you here also. Some people think since I 'own' the site (read, I registered the site name and I also admin it) that I make all the decisions here. I don't and in fact I don't want to. I try to bring all topics to Staff and I have been out voted at times. I like Staff to have opinions, that is why they are Staff. (I hate calling them just Staff when they are a bunch of great individuals who I'm lucky enough that want to help out the site, but I felt the need to come up with a group term here.)

I will read the thread, but you guys have to stop posting first! :D

[U2Lynne]

congrats, not easy to do... hope you got her something really nice (and hopefully not a computer) :lol
Nope, no computer, a pair of diamond earrings that I would love myself. They look beautiful on her. Oh... and I'm So Damned Proud Of Her! :D

[freezer]

it's not a "Fuck-the-Taper" policy
it's a "What the fuck are you talking about I can't share?" policy
ZOMB allows ALL lossless, non-commercial material from taper-friendly bands

Your site and site admins went out of their way to disrespect the taper and his wishes.

You had that show up within hours of it first going up here. Have you guys no courtesy at all? Have you no shame? You certainly showed no respect to this site with your scarfing it up and putting it up over there immediately.

Couldn't you have posted a link to this site?

No because that didn't say FUCK YOU to the taper as strongly as you guys wanted. You zombs wanted to send a message to tapers, well, you did. The tapers reading this thread saw through you immediately.

Nobody said anything about NOT sharing, That's nothing more than subterfuge on your part, damned disingenious also.

Jesus Christ, how can you dare to say he wasn't allowing the recording to be shared, when you zombs snatched it DIRECTLY from this site?

This all has to do with a disagreement in policy between your site and the taper, something that you zombs refused to try to work out before saying FUCK YOU to the taper.

Did anyone at zomb try and open a private conversation with Sebastian to work it out?.......By looking at bodhisattva's replies, doesn't seem like it, looks like he was on the defensive from word one.

Sorry, I see a "Fuck the tapers" policy prevalent at zomb, as bragged about in this thread.....

Your mileage may vary.





We love tapers! without them we wouldn't have this great hobby. We just don't like playing politics and favourites.

well, in retrospect, you'd have to say that....if you really did admit to a blanket "Fuck The Tapers" policy at zomb, you might as well fold up the tent and slink off into the night.

However, I'll bet there are more than a few reading this thread who thinks zomb not only doesn't play favorites (unless someone 'donates')....you don't play fair or even, either.








If I were to tape a show, like I hope to start doing soon and tagged it with "Only listen to on Tuesday nights in the light of a full moon" should you listen to my request? No! That's just stupid, and to us Don't share a Smashing Pumpkins recording on a tracker (loosely) founded on the Smashing Pumpkins sounds just as stupid to us :hmm:

Honest, well meaning and reasonable taper requests will always be honoured by ZOMB Staff, but we'll still listen to recordings on a Wednesday even if we're told not to

Well, that was an absolutely silly attempt at trying to marginalize the real disagreement in philosophies.

The actual dispute is over your site soliciting funds which is a policy the taper disagrees with.

I'm sure he knew that his tape would eventually trickle down to your site, but grabbing it from TTD and posting it at zomb in less than 24 to 48 hours....that's a show of NO-CLASS on the part of your site and it sends a big FUCK You to the taper. And you guys know it.

You should make sure other tapers know of the "Fuck The taper" attitude at your site.

Again, your mileage may vary.











Here's the disclaimer I use. It probably wouldn't fly for the taper unfriendly types at zomb either.

PS: Please show some respect for the taper, the recording and your fellow collectors:

Please do not "re-package" this show with misinformation or incorrect information or NO information.














The time now is 09:35 PM.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
freezer, patrick1963, Spring, E_rock, bodhisattva

:wave:

[Spring]

foxtrot raises a pretty good point. I don't know why Zomb has chosen to avoid it.

[zombfuckingsucks]

i am done answering your BS questions. stop grabbing at thin air and pretending you have something.

if members of zomb are posting anywhere its because of trolls like yourself starting problems.

if we get new members, great. members are constantly signing up, its not more money, its more bandwidth, as this is bit torrent, and every byte helps!

I am asking relevant and reasonable questions that I believe people have a right to be informed about.

It's frivolous that you would refer to me as a "troll." Unlike yourself, I have not resorted to name-calling or ad hominem attacks to avoid answering questions that would inform people. By any reasonable standard, ignorance is not a virtue and applying labels such as "troll" "terrorist" or "communist" etc. do not make an individual's claim less true.

[freezer]

The time now is 09:44 PM.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (9 members and 1 guests)
freezer, jcrab66, Phishblowz, smashing0, zombfuckingsucks, ISTAYAWAY17, patrick1963, SoulRat, E_rock

Jesus Christ on a crutch.....it's Saturday night...why the hell are you staring at a computer screen........go out and hear some live music.....and tape it.....why'don't 'cha?

I'm recording a concert from off the FM in 20 minutes.....what are you adding to the trade pool tonight, huh?

[U2Lynne]

The time now is 09:44 PM.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (9 members and 1 guests)
freezer, jcrab66, Phishblowz, smashing0, zombfuckingsucks, ISTAYAWAY17, patrick1963, SoulRat, E_rock

Jesus Christ on a crutch.....it's Saturday night...why the hell are you staring at a computer screen........go out and hear some live music.....and tape it.....why'don't 'cha?

I'm recording a concert from off the FM in 20 minutes.....what are you adding to the trade pool tonight, huh?
Write a FAQ. I'd love to record off of the stations here, but I'm clueless on how to.

{Lynne hides}

[Phishblowz]

The time now is 09:44 PM.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (9 members and 1 guests)
freezer, jcrab66, Phishblowz, smashing0, zombfuckingsucks, ISTAYAWAY17, patrick1963, SoulRat, E_rock

Jesus Christ on a crutch.....it's Saturday night...why the hell are you staring at a computer screen........go out and hear some live music.....and tape it.....why'don't 'cha?

I'm recording a concert from off the FM in 20 minutes.....what are you adding to the trade pool tonight, huh?

I'm pissing and moaning of course...doesn't that make me cool :cool: :lol :lol :lol :lmao: :lmao:

edit: the time is now 11:56pm EST...it's a big world and I don't see the importance of putting the time on your post as it is clearly stated in the top of your post, but if you must, you may wish to include the time zone you guys are referring to, because believe it or not, there's a lot of folks that aren't in your time zones gang!!!

[smashing0]

Your site and site admins went out of their way to disrespect the taper and his wishes.Wishes, that on the surface, seemed ridiculous

you (x7)It wasn't me. JellyBelly uploaded it in order to share it amongst the largest group of people he could
ZOMB's forums aren't checked by a large majority of our users...
Putting it up quickly was a very dick-ish thing to do, but so was saying DO not upload to ZOMB. ZOMB sucks. (an explanation to that was not given until much later)

This all has to do with a disagreement in policy between your site and the taper, something that you zombs refused to try to work out before saying FUCK YOU to the taper.

Did anyone at zomb try and open a private conversation with Sebastian to work it out?.......By looking at bodhisattva's replies, doesn't seem like it, looks like he was on the defensive from word one.Sebastian and a couple staff members have had private conversations in the past due to issues

these issues were related to Mixwell "remaster"ing an FM recording and JellyBelly doing something similar to this before (I believe)

other than zombfuckingsucks I have not heard of the donation issue before, and as far as I can tell was not mentioned anywhere :(

I think JellyBelly assumed that the message was due to their past misunderstandings and seeded it out of spite (a personal attack in response to Sebastian's attack to ZOMB)

Again that is pure speculation

The actual dispute is over your site soliciting funds which is a policy the taper disagrees with.which was not brought up til later, and all speculation on our side showed that it was most likely past disagreements with our staff (disagreements which our staff spent many hours trying to smooth over with Sebastian)

Your obsession with this "Fuck-the-Tapers" policy is just a misunderstandment
We seriously love the tapers, and honour any REASONABLE request

and a message that says do not upload to ZOMB (without any stated reason) does not fall under reasonable

PS: Please show some respect for the taper, the recording and your fellow collectors:

Please do not "re-package" this show with misinformation or incorrect information or NO information.I like that
mind if I use that in PM's to members at ZOMB who try to upload shows to ZOMB with misinformation/incorrect information or no information? (completely serious)

(do you really need to have 8 returns between paragraphs? that is slightly annoying)

[Phishblowz]

FWIW, although I understand this has been modified since...the whole thing says not only FUCK the TAPER, but it seems to encourage people to do so, rather than just allowing them to do so...it says that not only should we go out of your way to ignore the tapers request (if you feel it's unreasonable...which you ALL know is open for scrutiny) but also that if we respect the wishes of tapers who YOU feel have unfair requests, then WE need to "re-evaluate our place in the world"

now I can understand that you won't pull a torrent because someone else don't like it, but this is saying that we should actively undermine the tapers and if we don't then there's something wrong with us...you can't stand back and say you had nothing to do with this mess when you plainly support this notion...

in the case of Sebastian not wanting his material shared there, I agree that this is unreasonable because decent folks (apparently thousands of them) would be screwed because of personal grudges with admin and their policy, but the blanket statement you made shows very poor judgement IMHO and as with many of your opinions, it has been changed now that it is under scrutiny, and although you told someone not to post it because it is outdated you failed to post the update so we can see if it's a better policy or the same shit worded better (why have a policy when it changes every time it's scrutinized???) you tell us to "stand up for ourselves" but when asked to defend your position, you make changes to reflect the fact that even you can't defend your original position on the matter...you really need to pick a path and walk it if you want someone to respect your opinions...you change with the weather...you speak with very strong words (until someone questions you) and you strike me as a reasonable guy, so I don't understand how in the face of all that has transpired that you don't assume ANY responsibility for what happened here

I'll let a skeleton out of my closet to prove a point...I got an old Floyd show which had just made it's way into circulation for the very first time here (thanx to Chachi) and decided I needed to share this far and wide, and I upped it to the dime (as a newb I never thought twice...just wanted to share) and I got flamed for disrespecting the original seed here by upping it there before it ran it's course here...no one even said not to share it elsewhere in the torrent here (I guess it was just an understanding amongst traders) but that didn't stop them from pointing out that I was wrong for doing so...I apologized for the unintentional disrespect and never did it again...I at least wait until the original seed has run it's course...unless it's a very small site and no one (or very few) here would have gotten it from there...if this type of ettiquette is generally understood between traders, how, as an admin, can you pretend to not realize the implications of your actions??? I am feeling as though you have been a little dishonest in how you portray the events here...having only waited 24-48hrs to have it there may have caused trouble even without being asked not to share it there (as it did in my case) but knowing the taper didn't want it on Zomb and doing it so soon is a slap in the face (whether you meant it that way or not) and the fact that you seem to gloss over that says a lot...I still believe you're a reasonable guy (based on the fact that you seem to at least defend yourself w/o vulgarity and hate) but I see that you defend yourself on the issues you feel you can validate and avoid the ones you can't...

ultimately although Sebastian knows he can't stop it from getting to Zomb, you (as the admin) have to take responsibility for the fact that you allowed this, knowing full well what hellfire would ensue...you could have stopped this and chose not to...and based what what I read from your site (as posted here earlier) as well as your own words here, you not only allow this behavior but instigate it as well...hopefully you can understand how your statement makes you look and try to clean it up a bit over there

I take NO offense to your solicitaions or donations or whatever people wanna label it, because (as you stated) they know the deal before they donate, and that stops it from being a scam (it may be unethical, but that's between you and those who choose to donate, and it's not for me to cast judgement on that) but your attitude towards tapers and their wishes is deplorable and should be ammended (you said you have done so, but haven't provided the new statement so I don't know if it's any better or not) but the only issue I have at this point with you is the fact that you encourage others to disregard the wishes of the taper, and make your members feel as though there is something wrong with them if they respect the tapers wishes...that's just fucked up and you deserve to be called out on that...who are you to tell me to re-evaluate my place in the world???

even though I am hesitant to side with Sebastian because he is still wrong for posting a hateful comment about Zomb in the first place, and has no right to expect that the torrent won't pop up elsewhere...I can't help but feel that the way it went down was deliberate, and you and yours have remained unapologetic for the disrespect...for all the response about this, I find you and yours strangely silent about that issue

but I take the highest offense at the way you express you opinions towards the members of your site who respect the tapers...you should have more respect for your community than to talk to them like that...you asked not to have this posted because it has been updated, but you haven't posted it here, so I will repost the original as posted on page 2 or 3 because that is the only official word on the subject from your site (rather than you or your staff personally) and if you don't want this to be the way your site is represented then please post the updated version of your policy towards tapers and their wishes (and your opinions towards those who respect their wishes) for now all I see is a hateful statement showing hostility towards tapers wishes AND those who respect them...I realize you said you were done here, but I feel these points ought to be addressed...I don't want to attack you and make a big stink, but in trying to look at this objectively, I have formed my opinion, and if my opinions are based on inaccuracies or dated info, then please correct me so that we can all see where you really stand...as of now, you stand on shaky ground (based on the info I gathered) hopefully you can prove me wrong...I'd like to think that NO live music sharing site would think this way about the tapers OR those who respect their wishes...I would appreciate if you took the opportunity to explain yourself in case I have made decisions based on misleading information...as an outside observer, there's a good chance that I am not the only one who sees things the way I do...and curiously, for all the valid points I made, the only one that was picked up and addressed was about the comment about hookers (which was made in jest) all the valid points made were either glossed over or outright disregarded...that speaks volumes in itself...

this post from your site clearly says to me "fuck the tapers" and if you respect their wishes then there's something wrong with you...maybe I read it wrong

[freezer]

Wishes, that on the surface, seemed ridiculous

Too bad, not your call to make. No matter what the taper said, the actions of your site and admins are absolutely totally unethical and indefensible.

Especially in regards to this site and to the tapers wishes.






It wasn't me. JellyBelly uploaded it in order to share it amongst the largest group of people he could
ZOMB's forums aren't checked by a large majority of our users...
Putting it up quickly was a very dick-ish thing to do, but so was saying DO not upload to ZOMB. ZOMB sucks. (an explanation to that was not given until much later)

Being a dick in return doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick.

And now because of the "dick-ish" thing your site admins did, does that make all the participants 'dicks" .....

Apparently, if I read your words correctly, to you it sure seems that the people involved at zomb are 'dick-ish' to say the least.

By that admission alone I just gained more respect for you. That's more than bodhisattva admitted to in his 100,000 word essays today.



Your obsession with this "Fuck-the-Tapers" policy is just a misunderstandment
We seriously love the tapers, and honour any REASONABLE request

No obsession, some tapers here are conversing amongst themelves (myself included) and see zomb in a new light, illuminated as shown in this thread and with today's actions as being Taper-unfriendly.

That's just the opinion of a few tapers, nothing to worry about, just say fuck 'em all and move on.









and a message that says do not upload to ZOMB (without any stated reason) does not fall under reasonable

So you say, still it's only your opinion on what anybody has a right to say, but wait until you actually tape a show or two hundred before acting like you know from whence you speak.....

Wait until some site admins say "Fuck You smashing0", just as your zomb site did today to Sebastian...and then use the site to trample your wishes.... Let's see if you like it.



And I saw you didn't address the backhanded swipe you zombs took at TTD for being uncourteous....why be any different from bodhisattva who is a master at avoiding answers.

I'm sure you all feel justified at whatever questionable actions you zombs did today, as long as you could all say a big Fuck you to the taper.

that was the important thing at zomb, wasn't it....to be able to say Fuck You Sebastian ---Fuck you to the taper -- as strongly as your site could.




























(do you really need to have 8 returns between paragraphs? that is slightly annoying)

Oh, I dunno.....it's not quite as annoying as trying to get someone from your site to admit that your admins exemplified how a torrent site can be taper-unfriendly, all the while justifying some bullshit actions against a taper.

("He was a dick so we HAD to be pricks in return." is that what you mean, smashing0? Really, are you serious??? Because that's the gist of the defense of your site and admins.)


.....Do you zombs get as anal about ppl. typing in a post also?




Besides if I don't seperate ideas, ....well, you read this thread, didn't you see how confused bodhisattva said he was earlier today and being confused and befuddled allowed him to ignore pertinent questions while he was ranting off-topic. (You need to see where he got confused? it can be pointed out, if necessary?)










Lighten up, if you guys hadn't already shown yourselves to have been just as 'dick-ish' as possible in regards to respecting a taper's wishes, you wouldn't feel you needed to be this vigorous in defending the integrity of your site.

[entropy357]

Okay, so in a perfect world, both sides probably could have handled this situation a little better. Let's please stop pointing fingers and making accusations against each other. Remember we all belong to the live music sharing community for the love to the music. That's what it's really all about.

If anyone has issues they feel have not been addressed I would hope you all could write up a final post to get your concerns out and then we could start to get past this. For now, some people might have to agree to disagree on some points.

Personally, I'd rather be smoking a big fat joint right now and then snuggling up with my women but instead sitting at my computer typing away like a douche bag, addressing all this crap. You are all severely impacting standard of living and I don't like it!! Knock it off !!! ;)

[Phishblowz]

It wasn't me. JellyBelly uploaded it in order to share it amongst the largest group of people he could
ZOMB's forums aren't checked by a large majority of our users...

that's a very classy way to pass the buck...does the staff have no control over the site...let's own up to your share of responsibilty...you knew what JellyBelly was doing and what kinda riot would ensue, and you allowed it...don't throw JellyBelly under the bus like that...you guys are responsible too

Putting it up quickly was a very dick-ish thing to do, but so was saying DO not upload to ZOMB. ZOMB sucks.
both very true, thanx for saying this...taper and uploader were both wrong, and I'm glad to see that being acknowledged now (better late than never)

Your obsession with this "Fuck-the-Tapers" policy is just a misunderstandment
We seriously love the tapers, and honour any REASONABLE request

who decides what is reasonable...that's a very large grey area, not to be taken lightly...please don't dismiss the fact that people are entitled to their opinions and just because you find it unreasonable is not a reason to deny them their requests...who is anyone to say what is and is not reasonable :hmm:

P.S. I too would appreciate it if Freezer could shorten up some of those unecessary spaces too...is that an "unreasonable request" :lol (sorry couldn't help it)

P.P.S. entropy357...how many women you snugglin up with pimp :wtf: what's your secret :hmm: :lol

[smashing0]

you asked not to have this posted because it has been updated, but you haven't posted it here, here you go
An Important Message From bodhisattva

Posted on: 2007-05-26 20:03:46 GMT (9 hours ago)
Yesterday I made a sitewide announcement that caused some confusion. It was not to disrespect the great tapers of the scene. The message was in regards to a group of individuals who felt they could use source files of the first smashing pumpkins show back to slander the ZOMB for no rational reason beyond the person having a vendetta against one staff member here. The message was open ended and could have easily been misinterpreted. For this I apologize, especially to the good tapers of our scene.. Its not my intention to have members disrespect tapers. We hold respectful tapers in very high regard, and we by no means make attempts to disrespect ANYONE who respects us. But it is my intention to enlighten members about these sorts of actions so we as intelligent music fans can root out these bad tapers. Tapers who spread hatred and lies are scum, and I do not care if they are working hard to spread you free music. They do not deserve respect if they do not give respect!

But I will reiterate the original sentiments, as I stand by these words.

TAPERS who disrespect the ZOMB in their source text files, saying the ZOMB SUCKS will get no respect from the ZOMB. If they have requests in their source text for their show not to be here, yet disrespect our entire community than they deserve no respect and their wishes ignored.

Source text files are not pedestals to spread hatred and ignorance. They are to give information about the taping gear used, the lineage, the songs, and the venue. Nothing more. People can keep their personal opinions about websites out of them, as none of that matters, its collateral fluff and foolish.

We police torrents based on the criteria of format, whether or not something is lossy/transcoded, or commercially released. Beyond that we cannot be expected to police the unrealistic will of tapers/editors of shows. Releasers who believe they can dictate where their shows end up are delusional and we are not going to bow down to the delusions of egotistical, spiteful and disrectful individuals.

The ZOMB respects everyone deserving of respect. We love music, we love to spread music, and we try to be a very user friendly site. Again, I apologize for any confusion this caused, as my message was mainly in regard to two shows that have been recently released.

If you would like to weigh in, positive or negative, please feel free to post on this thread: http://zombtracker.the-zomb.com/forums.php?action=viewtopic&topicid=8795

[freezer]

^^^^^Being a dick in return doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick.









You want respect, you have to give respect.

That message shows nothing to tapers but over-used and well-worn lip service.

Show some respect to begin with.

Try by apologizing to Sebastian.

[zombfuckingsucks]

If Zomb simply hosts bootlegs that others have spent the time and effort to produce, what's the point in spending people's money on recording equipment?

[The Govner]

The time now is 09:44 PM.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (9 members and 1 guests)
freezer, jcrab66, Phishblowz, smashing0, zombfuckingsucks, ISTAYAWAY17, patrick1963, SoulRat, E_rock

Jesus Christ on a crutch.....it's Saturday night...why the hell are you staring at a computer screen........go out and hear some live music.....and tape it.....why'don't 'cha?

I'm recording a concert from off the FM in 20 minutes.....what are you adding to the trade pool tonight, huh?I was at The Bijou Theater in Knoxville taping Johnny Winter who happen to have a "jam" with Junior Brown (who was in Maryville playing at the H-D dealership in "the Shed") on the old Bobby Womack classic "It's All Over Now"......then went across to to tape local punk legends "Teenage Love" who was playing @ The Corner Lounge.

I'll rather be taping that reading this garbage! :cool:

[trustthex]

I was at The Bijou Theater in Knoxville taping Johnny Winter who happen to have a "jam" with Junior Brown (who was in Maryville playing at the H-D dealership in "the Shed") on the old Bobby Womack classic "It's All Over Now"......

i for one would love to see that johnny winter here

[The Govner]

it's not a "Fuck-the-Taper" policy
it's a "What the fuck are you talking about I can't share?" policy
ZOMB allows ALL lossless, non-commercial material from taper-friendly bands

We love tapers! without them we wouldn't have this great hobby. We just don't like playing politics and favourites.

If I were to tape a show, like I hope to start doing soon and tagged it with "Only listen to on Tuesday nights in the light of a full moon" should you listen to my request? No! That's just stupid, and to us Don't share a Smashing Pumpkins recording on a tracker (loosely) founded on the Smashing Pumpkins sounds just as stupid to us :hmm:

Honest, well meaning and reasonable taper requests will always be honoured by ZOMB Staff, but we'll still listen to recordings on a Wednesday even if we're told not toAs a taper I do not think it is too far out of line to ask that the torrent not be reseeded elsewhere until the torrent is not active with leechers.........most torrents will drop off within a few days of the first complete download. If it was all about getting it out ASAP I would post it at as many torrent sites as I could personally but anybody who wants to download a show from here is welcome with little or no restrictions. It sounds like to me that "Zomb" just got their nose bent out of shape because they didn't have it posted on their site first as it is a Smashing Pumpkins based torrent site and could not wait until the original torrent had run it's course.


Just remember........you need us tapers more than we need your services. Quit acting like you are doing us a favor by hosting our show.....you are doing it for the people who use your website to get music that we want to share. Get over yourself allready! :nono:

[The Govner]

i for one would love to see that johnny winter hereHaven't I killed your ratio yet? :hmm:

[trustthex]

naw, still in the positive, but if you keep it up, you just might :D

[starmetheus]

As a taper I do not think it is too far out of line to ask that the torrent not be reseeded elsewhere until the torrent is not active with leechers.........most torrents will drop off within a few days of the first complete download. If it was all about getting it out ASAP I would post it at as many torrent sites as I could personally but anybody who wants to download a show from here is welcome with little or no restrictions. It sounds like to me that "Zomb" just got their nose bent out of shape because they didn't have it posted on their site first as it is a Smashing Pumpkins based torrent site and could not wait until the original torrent had run it's course.

Just to clarify - that isn't entirely accurate in this instance. ZOMB's nose got bent out of shape when the original seeder decided to insult ZOMB in the description text of the torrent, explicitly stating that ZOMB sucks and that the show shouldn't be shared there. I will concede that having some ZOMB members proceed to upload the show on ZOMB as soon as possible was in poor taste, and not something I personally endorsed. It had nothing to do with the show not being posted to ZOMB first.

Anyway, other than that clarification - I completely agree with your comments regarding letting a torrent run its course where it is first uploaded.

[jcrab66]

that dipshit attitude about "fuck what the tapers want" is enough to make a few "tapers" not torrent shows at all which is counter productive to what your trying to do at zomb so i guess what you have to look forward to is a bunch of great singlepointsonymic > mini disc tapes that you record with the money fools give you

[The Govner]

Just to clarify - that isn't entirely accurate in this instance. ZOMB's nose got bent out of shape when the original seeder decided to insult ZOMB in the description text of the torrent, explicitly stating that ZOMB sucks and that the show shouldn't be shared there. I will concede that having some ZOMB members proceed to upload the show on ZOMB as soon as possible was in poor taste, and not something I personally endorsed. It had nothing to do with the show not being posted to ZOMB first.

Anyway, other than that clarification - I completely agree with your comments regarding letting a torrent run its course where it is first uploaded.Since I never have been to ZOMB (and now I have decided after all the e-drama I have no reason to ever visit there) I can only assume that it is their word against Sebastian's. Maybe he didn't want it to be there within hours of the first completed download....or maybe he doesn't want it there at all. I could care less because once you let a show out it is realisticly out of your control (and I think that Sebastian knew that!)......but as I stated it is not unreasonable to ask for the torrent to run it's course before posting it elsewhere. I'm tickled shitless that The Stooges & Heaven And Hell from Chicago that I taped is all over the internet with countless copies grabbed but I would have been a little pissed if the torrents was still extremely active where I originally posted them....that is why I re-seed The Stooges show here after 500+ copies was snatched @ Dime for those who are not a member.

As you can tell........I'm giving Sebastian the benifit of the doubt as I am not impressed with the childish behavior from the ZOMB supporters who have put in their 2 cents.

[freezer]

As a taper I do not think it is too far out of line to ask that the torrent not be reseeded elsewhere until the torrent is not active with leechers.........most torrents will drop off within a few days of the first complete download. If it was all about getting it out ASAP I would post it at as many torrent sites as I could personally but anybody who wants to download a show from here is welcome with little or no restrictions. It sounds like to me that "Zomb" just got their nose bent out of shape because they didn't have it posted on their site first as it is a Smashing Pumpkins based torrent site and could not wait until the original torrent had run it's course..........

Agreed......well said Govner. :clap: :clap: :clap:


As a result of the above action: the unethical immediate snatching and re-posting of that show, the zomb admins responsible also throughly and purposefully disrespected this site, this site's owner, the TTD staff and entire membership...all so they could make sure they could say Fuck This Taper as strongly as possible.

You zombs and its defenders also owe Lynne and her staff a very real apology for the insult to this site and members.

And make it a public apology since the YOUR squabble was made public at TTD.





You zombs want to continue to promote your policy of "Fuck The Tapers", you want to discuss your anti-taper policies, why don't you do it on your zomb site instead.

Instead of spewing more hatred of tapers at TTD, why don't you take your anti-taper stance back to zomb where you can spread your mean-spirited propaganda to the already-converted.

Its Sunday morning.....go preach to the zomb choir. They must be the only ones not offended by the Anti-Taper contingent at zomb.










As you can tell........I'm giving Sebastian the benifit of the doubt as I am not impressed with the childish behavior from the ZOMB supporters who have put in their 2 cents.

:thumbsup



And before anyone else from zomb tries again to rationalize their childish behavior,
.....please remember, no matter what Sebastian did.....
Being a dick in return doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick.

[Sebastian]

Well, here's my (really) last post on the subject...

I must admit that the wording I used to make my request not to seed my recording on Zomb might have been a bit harsh. I could have written a page long explanation, but I felt it was more important to stick with a short request and get the recordings out to the fans asap.

As a result of all that happened, I have voluntarily removed my requests from the torrent description posts. They're pointless now anyway since they have already been ignored.

However, I still feel it is my right to make a few simple requests in exchange for giving something away for free. If any requests may seem unreasonable to some people, that is their problem. It should actually be common courtesy for any human being to respect the wishes of other human beings. Unfortunately, this has not happened.

During the first hours of this fiasco, I have been contacted by a number of Zomb mods who asked my to explain my feelings towards Zomb to them. I did that via private messages. Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from most of them.

[ragu421]

What the fuck is a ZOMB? Arent they the breed with the small genetalia?

[Phishblowz]

Wrong. As Lynne stated in post #1 of this thread: "What exactly is the site's responsibility to its users in regards to the donations?"

yes this is true, but I believe it stemmed from the fact that the "taper-unfriendly" site had questionable donation practices which led Lynne to create this thread to air these various grievances...I still believe this whole thread was started due to the mess created by the fallout from the other site in sharing something that came from here...I don't think Lynne ever intended to opine about ttd's donating policies or even debate them...all of this is in response to a single overblown issue

correct me if I'm wrong Lynne...and BTW would you tell us what you would do if a taper asked you not to have their torrent shared here??? you always make solid decisions and I wonder (and think others would like to know) what you would do if faced with this issue...if you knew a torrent was upped here against the tapers wishes (regardless of whether the taper is right or wrong in feeling the way they do) what would you do??? :hmm:

[direwolf-pgh]

:hmm: is this a pop quiz ? cause i didnt study my notes.

[freezer]

Wrong. As Lynne stated in post #1 of this thread: "What exactly is the site's responsibility to its users in regards to the donations?"

So you say....... but this thread was hijacked a long time ago (page one message #6 -- beginning with the line - "God you are so full of shit" and ending with the line "go fuck yourself" -- is where it started going south.........and when the donation issue (this thread's stated topic) was brought up again later, see message #118, the zomb admin posting is not up to speed on the donation issue....which was the primary reason for this thread.


Sorry patrick, but the thread was hijacked away from the donations issue and put on the "Fuck the tapers" issue by certaim members from zomb trying to justify the "Fuck The Taper" attitude as shown by the treatment of Sebastian......


I joined in here when I saw the "Fuck the Tapers" attitude first being exhibited and I've noticed, that almost to a man, the tapers on TTD that posted in this thread don't like that "Fuck The Tapers" attitude.


This is what I've been responding to. And I agree with AAR.oner from message #26 in this thread i think this thread, and the one it "stemmed from", show the changing nature of the collecting community -- the gimmegimmegimme attitudes, the this-show-has-to-be-recorded mindset ........... and a complete lack of respect for tapers & their wishes...absolutely pathetic

Dead on AAR.oner... absolutely dead on..... it's about time someone in the community calls bullshit when he sees bullshit. :thumbsup





If you like, patrick, we could ask Lynne to start a thread devoted entirely to the topic:

When should Site Admins say "Fuck The Tapers"?

But it would probably only be a rehash of this thread, unless it goes in the Taper's Forum, in which case a LOT more tapers would get hip to which torrent sites are "Taper-Unfriendly".







As far as donations -- Lynne did ask for opinions so here's mine:

I trust Lynne implicitly and always. Case closed.

Furthermore, I don't care what other sites do and in particular, I could care less if zomb solicits money for recording gear or to support some admin's crack habit.....I've looked at their site and I am not interested in using their services. Thanks anyway.

[possessed]

You zombs want to continue to promote your policy of "Fuck The Tapers", you want to discuss your anti-taper policies, why don't you do it on your zomb site instead.

Anti-taper gripes don't get you new shows now do they? Biting the hand that feeds you is really fucking dumb IMO.

I have been looking into taping and even though I may try someday, the thought of no piss breaks, sneaking in gear, asshole security, people snitching, assholes bumping into you, not drinking (see no piss breaks), ungrateful bastards, bootleggers who charge money for your hard work, standing still in one spot (especially for video) etc, etc......just is a turn off.

Respect the taper. Without them, you would have to shell out ticket money and actually go to shows 6000 miles away instead of having some nice person preserve them for your enjoyment.

To all you tapers.... :cheers:

[zombfuckingsucks]

Let's please stop pointing fingers and making accusations against each other.
You know who doesn't like finger pointing? Those who are to blame.

[Patty Mac]

^ Very well said, Possessed.

[paddington]

what a bunch of shit.

Don't sell bootlegs if you aren't a bootlegger. Selling multiple copies of other people's bootlegs is shitty. If you do it, you are shitty. Selling ratio credits to facilitate downloading other people bootlegs is about the same thing.

Money for ratio / credit goes against the spirit of the hobby. It makes the place smell funny.

[Phishblowz]

what a bunch of shit.

Money for ratio / credit goes against the spirit of the hobby. It makes the place smell funny.

I agree 100%...unless the ratio is meaningless (as it is here) in which case I don't think it makes a difference...if your ratio is key to being able to access torrents, then selling ratio credit = selling torrents...but here at then den a ratio credit means about the same thing as a thank you...I don't think you were referring to ttd policy in your statement, but I wanted to make sure it isn't accepted as a blanket statement for all sites...I think it only applies to sites where your ratio is your means of access...I think you would agree with that but I wouldn't wanna put words in your mouth (or anything else for that matter) :lol

[zombfuckingsucks]

^ jamessk is on the money. I hope awareness comes to a point where sites that do this cannot ignore people’s concerns simply by condemning those who disagree


An Open Response to Bodhisattva/ZOMB/THEZOMB

If you want to find why people are angry with or have a "vendetta" with Zomb as you call it, it really does not take a great deal of sophisticated probing to determine that people's rational resentment towards Zomb stems from a common root: Zomb's unethical behavior. With this shallow and condescending response, bodhisattva takes a page directly from the George W. school of fallacy by suggesting that those who disagree are guilty of trying to spread hate, as though we are drooling idiots incapable of distinguishing between the act of hate and the act holding people accountable for questionable activities, especially when they are entrusted with considerable sums of money.

Another parallel can be drawn with bodhisattva’s allusion of Tapers as “dictators” which is fairly Orwellian. Think about it:

The Zomb exacts stringent control over the public discourse within its forum to root out dissenters.

The taper produces; only to have his work disfigured and dismantled by the whim of parasites.

The Zomb controls and seeks acquisition; using regulation to ensure its role as a gatekeeper of bootleg access.

The taper does not control or seek power; but modestly requests that his creation be distributed in the manner he finds appropriate.

Who’s the dictator? People should determine for themselves, after all, isn’t it the dictator who relies on vapid labels such as “communists,” “trolls,” “terrorists,” “scum,” to instill what people should think without determining their own rational convictions?

On the subject of respect, I had asked a reasonable question about your definition of “donation” so we could have a common understanding of terms and you responded, "Thats all speculation dumb ass." That’s disrespectful. Raping the Taper's of their resources and disincentivizing them from taping in the future is (for lack of a better phrase) to take a giant shit on the smashing pumpkins trading community at large. That’s disrespectful. We still have not come to terms on the same definition of "donation" but I would surmise that Zomb's definition of "donate" is just as faulty as its definition of "slander" (remember, verbal not written) which Zomb purports that dissenters are guilty of (without citations)

Are questions relating to Zomb’s definition of “donations” disrespectful for the fact that they might shed some light and honestly onto a topic that has been charged with irrational and emotional rhetoric that merely serves to obscure everyone’s understanding?

An Important Message From bodhisattva

Posted on: 2007-05-26 20:03:46 GMT (9 hours ago)
Yesterday I made a sitewide announcement that caused some confusion. It was not to disrespect the great tapers of the scene. The message was in regards to a group of individuals who felt they could use source files of the first smashing pumpkins show back to slander the ZOMB for no rational reason beyond the person having a vendetta against one staff member here. The message was open ended and could have easily been misinterpreted. For this I apologize, especially to the good tapers of our scene.. Its not my intention to have members disrespect tapers. We hold respectful tapers in very high regard, and we by no means make attempts to disrespect ANYONE who respects us. But it is my intention to enlighten members about these sorts of actions so we as intelligent music fans can root out these bad tapers. Tapers who spread hatred and lies are scum, and I do not care if they are working hard to spread you free music. They do not deserve respect if they do not give respect!

But I will reiterate the original sentiments, as I stand by these words.

TAPERS who disrespect the ZOMB in their source text files, saying the ZOMB SUCKS will get no respect from the ZOMB. If they have requests in their source text for their show not to be here, yet disrespect our entire community than they deserve no respect and their wishes ignored.

Source text files are not pedestals to spread hatred and ignorance. They are to give information about the taping gear used, the lineage, the songs, and the venue. Nothing more. People can keep their personal opinions about websites out of them, as none of that matters, its collateral fluff and foolish.

We police torrents based on the criteria of format, whether or not something is lossy/transcoded, or commercially released. Beyond that we cannot be expected to police the unrealistic will of tapers/editors of shows. Releasers who believe they can dictate where their shows end up are delusional and we are not going to bow down to the delusions of egotistical, spiteful and disrectful individuals.

The ZOMB respects everyone deserving of respect. We love music, we love to spread music, and we try to be a very user friendly site. Again, I apologize for any confusion this caused, as my message was mainly in regard to two shows that have been recently released.

[AAR.oner]

haven't been on in days...damn this thread has taken a turn...won't even have to whore in the Lounge now

btw Lynne, if i donate to the site, think you might could boost my post count? all the typing is causing carpal tunnel :lol:

[AAR.oner]

I have no problem donating to sites I trust (trust is the keyword). I've given money to several that I felt deserve it including this one. When the new servers were coming in and TTD was behind the money curve I gave some cash. Not because I felt obligated, but because I've known Lynne for like 5 years and trust her and how she operates this site. I don't want to see this place go down so I keep an eye on the operating cost here. Should I, as a paying member, demand accountability? Depends on the site. But here, I trust Lynne and what she has set out to accomplish. A free and open trading site with very little restrictions except to keep the trade pool clean. Share ratios aren't enforced like other sites, money gifts buy you nothing but a sense of helping the community and it's one of the most helpful communities around. How many other sites give their members such helpful techno help? Rarely does a site give such unselfish help to the community. Yes, there are a few bad apples, but for the most part the technobabble section here is unsurpassed. If they don't have the answer, they have the link.


Lynne, you have a great site and I respect you tons for doing what you do and still maintaining a great marriage and family. If we never meet, you will always be a friend to me. http://iconhell.com/i/iconhell_babierykiel_ILoveYouu.gif
and what about the rest of us staff? what, we're not trustworthy? we're not yer friends also?

just so everyone knows, that Possessed guy is a tosser, and the band sucks too











:D

[AAR.oner]

(Oh, btw, I'll tell all you guys and anyone who will listen, my daughter graduated from college today in MIS with a 4.0! It was awesome and I'm so damn proud of her!)
:clap: nice Lynne! congrats from us

i finally graduated last weekend too...only took me 12 years to finish :lol definitely not a 4.0, but got cum laude!

[AAR.oner]

that dipshit attitude about "fuck what the tapers want" is enough to make a few "tapers" not torrent shows at all which is counter productive to what your trying to do at zomb so i guess what you have to look forward to is a bunch of great singlepointsonymic > mini disc tapes that you record with the money fools give you
:clap: finally a bit of logic

of course, who cares if its ECM>atracMD or a EarthWorks+sbd>744, its all the same right? ;)

[AAR.oner]

correct me if I'm wrong Lynne...and BTW would you tell us what you would do if a taper asked you not to have their torrent shared here??? you always make solid decisions and I wonder (and think others would like to know) what you would do if faced with this issue...if you knew a torrent was upped here against the tapers wishes (regardless of whether the taper is right or wrong in feeling the way they do) what would you do??? :hmm:
since Lynne hasn't responded yet, i figured i would...our official policy is
here (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=removal#faq_taper_removal)

I'm the taper/author/filmer and I want that show removed!
Our policy here is similar to that at a major torrent site. The rights to the audio/video belong to the performer. Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. If someone uploads a show that you taped/filmed/authored/remastered, you may ask the uploader to remove it ONCE (any other requests may be deleted at the discretion of the Mods), but it is up to them whether they want to ask us to remove it. However, that doesn't mean that show is permanently banned from here. Someone else may end up uploading it and not feel like asking for it to be removed.

but basically, it would depend on the situation...there are times the show might be pulled, other times it wouldn't...

a specific situation comes to mind where a DVD was seeded here that was authored using an audience audio source withuot asking permission of the taper...the taper was pissed because the band doesn't allow video [only audio], and he wanted to respect that...in defense of the DVD authorer, i think it was an "innocent mistake", but i still feel it was a mistake, and shoulda been either reconciled with the taper or pulled...

for me personally, as both staff and a taper, i think that a tapers wishes should be respected if at all possible...end of story

this whole stance i'm hearing from certain folks about tapers having to "earn their respect" is shite in my opinion...again personally speaking -- but when we walk into a show to record, we've typically got atleast $3000 worth of gear [no donations either ;) ] & the knowledge to get a decent sounding recording...on top of that, we can't enjoy the show like everyone else cuz taping is work, not to mention the days it takes to edit a multi-cam video...if thats not enough to get just a bit of respect, then the "requirements" are skewed and suspect

[AAR.oner]

From my perspective this site, and some others, have allowed some trolls (some with obvious troll handles btw) to spread misconceptions and lies about our website and some people here took a big bite of the shit sandwhich.





Sebastian has been a member since 2004, has u/led over a dozen shows in the past year, and posts fairly regularly...you joined a few days ago, have u/led nothing, and have averaged over 9 posts a day strictly arguing in this thread

and he's the troll? :hmm:

not tryin to stir the shit bodhi, just sayin...ya might wanna step back and think about it...

i know that next year when someone posts how much "TTD sucks because they're audio snobs and won't allow my MD recording", i certainly won't be registering at the board and arguing our position...i'll probly chuckle and go back to moderating

[AAR.oner]

Dead on AAR.oner... absolutely dead on..... it's about time someone in the community calls bullshit when he sees bullshit. :thumbsup

i'd say you've been callin bullshit just fine yerself bro :cool: :D

[Phishblowz]

I'm the taper/author/filmer and I want that show removed!
Our policy here is similar to that at a major torrent site. The rights to the audio/video belong to the performer. Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. If someone uploads a show that you taped/filmed/authored/remastered, you may ask the uploader to remove it ONCE (any other requests may be deleted at the discretion of the Mods), but it is up to them whether they want to ask us to remove it. However, that doesn't mean that show is permanently banned from here. Someone else may end up uploading it and not feel like asking for it to be removed.


for me personally, as both staff and a taper, i think that a tapers wishes should be respected if at all possible...end of story




what I am saying is this, if a taper upped a show at Zomb with a request not to seed it here, would that be respected here, or if someone decides to upload it here, so be it...I think the policy states that you honor the request of the band, and the request of the person who uploaded it here...if the tables were turned here, would we have allowed our community to disrespect Zomb??? I just imagine we're better than that here, but I was curious how that works...I'm glad to know that we have an "official" policy, but I'm even happier to hear that you guys are willing to take each case into consideration (understanding that there is a huge grey area...

in this precise scenario, switching the roles of Zomb and TTD, would TTD respect the wishes of the taper who upped at Zomb...seems hypocritical of us here if we wouldn't respect it...I just wanna make sure we're not flaming Zomb admin for something we would do here

BTW Lynee is awesome...all you other staffers suck balls :lol

just kidding, you guys all do a helluva job...I may not always agree with you guys, but I always respect you guys for the hard work you do...keep up the good work here guys...thanx for everything :cool:

[Phishblowz]

"Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. "

isn't this the point that Zomb admins have been making the whole time??? it seems wrong to bash them for a policy that resembles ours...I still don't mind their donation policies because they announce what it's for...I don't think it's ethical, but they're open about it...I think they are in the wrong for this, but if the shoe was on the other foot I think (based on our policy) we would have done the same thing...we would be wrong too IMHO...have I misinterpreted anything

not tryin to stir up trouble (I love it here) but just honestly seeking clarification...thanx in advance for addressing my concerns (preferrably in a civil manner) I appreciate it...it's nice to see people defend their position here instead of avoiding the issue...I can always count on open and spirited debate and discussion here, and although sometimes it gets heated...I always manage to learn something...thanx for taking the time to address my concerns

[paddington]

:clap: nice Lynne! congrats from us

i finally graduated last weekend too...only took me 12 years to finish :lol definitely not a 4.0, but got cum laude!

congrats, m8 - that's fantastic!

[greenheatherc]

"Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. "

isn't this the point that Zomb admins have been making the whole time??? it seems wrong to bash them for a policy that resembles ours...I still don't mind their donation policies because they announce what it's for...I don't think it's ethical, but they're open about it...I think they are in the wrong for this, but if the shoe was on the other foot I think (based on our policy) we would have done the same thing...we would be wrong too IMHO...have I misinterpreted anything

not tryin to stir up trouble (I love it here) but just honestly seeking clarification...thanx in advance for addressing my concerns (preferrably in a civil manner) I appreciate it...it's nice to see people defend their position here instead of avoiding the issue...I can always count on open and spirited debate and discussion here, and although sometimes it gets heated...I always manage to learn something...thanx for taking the time to address my concerns
thats something i cant answer, since i don't really deal with the BT forums much...i can say that if it were strictly up to me, i would honor the request...but i'll also add that i agree with what the Zomb admins are sayin re: not being able to police every torrent like that...i guess it boils down to "ideally" vs "realistically", like much of life ;)

sorry i can't give a better answer than that

EDIT -- didn't realize my girl had logged into her account, so this is an AAR.oner answer :lol

[greenheatherc]

congrats, m8 - that's fantastic!
thanks James :D

[trustthex]

Congrats AAR.oner as well. i guess this thread has taken another left hand turn, and is now the graduation thread? :nerd: ;)

[pmonk]

Who do I send the bill to?

[freezer]

"Once that show gets out of your hands, you don't have any control over what is done with it. "

isn't this the point that Zomb admins have been making the whole time??? it seems wrong to bash them for a policy that resembles ours........


TTD policy doesn't include anything about explicitly doing something to spite a taper.

Which is exactly what the site admins at zomb did.....and bragged about it while slagging off the taper.


I did a little searching on this topic on line and I saw this.......




uhm, show was posted by a staff member, who explicitly stated he's doing it because the taper requested the show not to be hosted there.

i................ instead staff members jump on this within minutes and then proceed to call him "a bad taper and scum" on their site news. utterly retarded imho.

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=141065&page=16&pp=30



And bodhisattva thinks he has a right to demand respect......instead of earning it.....
:lol :lol :lol

[U2Lynne]

btw Lynne, if i donate to the site, think you might could boost my post count? all the typing is causing carpal tunnel :lol:
Um..... no. You'll just have to get Heather to post using your account. :D
what I am saying is this, if a taper upped a show at Zomb with a request not to seed it here, would that be respected here, or if someone decides to upload it here, so be it...I think the policy states that you honor the request of the band, and the request of the person who uploaded it here...if the tables were turned here, would we have allowed our community to disrespect Zomb??? I just imagine we're better than that here, but I was curious how that works...I'm glad to know that we have an "official" policy, but I'm even happier to hear that you guys are willing to take each case into consideration (understanding that there is a huge grey area...

in this precise scenario, switching the roles of Zomb and TTD, would TTD respect the wishes of the taper who upped at Zomb...seems hypocritical of us here if we wouldn't respect it...I just wanna make sure we're not flaming Zomb admin for something we would do here
I think this is one of those instances where we'd have to make a call at the time. When I hear that people have uploaded shows here that were just uploaded on another tracker, I try to send a PM to the seeder saying it really is polite to wait until the show has run it's course over on the first tracker. Usually they write back and say they are sorry, but they now understand.

If it were the exact same situation as what happened here, I really don't know. I do know one thing, I would not have gone and posted in the thread on the other site saying that we don't want the recording here at TTD. I think I mentioned earlier that even though I'm not an Admin/Mod on any other site, I am still seen as a spokesperson for TTD and anything I say can be used again the site, so I try very, very, VERY hard to never get into any petty fights on other sites. So, assuming that no one from TTD went over to that other site and said "well fine, we don't want this recording on TTD with that sort of attitude" (or however it was worded) and then the recording showed up over here, I don't think I would pull it, however I do think I would be PMing the seeder and letting them know that we do NOT like site wars and that it is pretty petty to go against the tapers wishes and upload the show over here. I think there would be a lot of PMing going on, basically. And then if he chooses to pull the thread, I would be more than happy to pull it for him/her.

I *think* that the things people were getting a bit perturbed about in this situation is that a) the Admin said he didn't want the show there and would make sure it wouldn't be uploaded there, but then changed his mind and b) it was a Staff member who uploaded the show over there. I can honestly say that I can't see any member of Staff here ever doing something like that. No one on Staff here is the type of person to try to cause such a huge problem like what was caused. Staff here is pretty darned laid back and I just can't see any of them doing that.

[trustthex]

Staff here is pretty darned laid back and I just can't see any of them doing that.

/me points and laughs like nelson muntz "Haw-Ha, your staff is a bunch of damn hippies." :wook:

[freezer]

........and that it is pretty petty to go against the tapers wishes ........

goddam......That is strong strong language, coming from you, Ms Lynne...... :lol



though you just could'a repeated this instead.......

You wall-eyed apple-knocking pig-fuckers! You don't know shit!

:D

[greatdane]

An Open Response to Bodhisattva/ZOMB/THEZOMB

If you want to find why people are angry with or have a "vendetta" with Zomb as you call it, it really does not take a great deal of sophisticated probing to determine that people's rational resentment towards Zomb stems from a common root: Zomb's unethical behavior. With this shallow and condescending response, bodhisattva takes a page directly from the George W. school of fallacy by suggesting that those who disagree are guilty of trying to spread hate, as though we are drooling idiots incapable of distinguishing between the act of hate and the act holding people accountable for questionable activities, especially when they are entrusted with considerable sums of money.

Another parallel can be drawn with bodhisattva’s allusion of Tapers as “dictators” which is fairly Orwellian. Think about it:

The Zomb exacts stringent control over the public discourse within its forum to root out dissenters.

The taper produces; only to have his work disfigured and dismantled by the whim of parasites.

The Zomb controls and seeks acquisition; using regulation to ensure its role as a gatekeeper of bootleg access.

The taper does not control or seek power; but modestly requests that his creation be distributed in the manner he finds appropriate.

Who’s the dictator? People should determine for themselves, after all, isn’t it the dictator who relies on vapid labels such as “communists,” “trolls,” “terrorists,” “scum,” to instill what people should think without determining their own rational convictions?

On the subject of respect, I had asked a reasonable question about your definition of “donation” so we could have a common understanding of terms and you responded, "Thats all speculation dumb ass." That’s disrespectful. Raping the Taper's of their resources and disincentivizing them from taping in the future is (for lack of a better phrase) to take a giant shit on the smashing pumpkins trading community at large. That’s disrespectful. We still have not come to terms on the same definition of "donation" but I would surmise that Zomb's definition of "donate" is just as faulty as its definition of "slander" (remember, verbal not written) which Zomb purports that dissenters are guilty of (without citations)

Are questions relating to Zomb’s definition of “donations” disrespectful for the fact that they might shed some light and honestly onto a topic that has been charged with irrational and emotional rhetoric that merely serves to obscure everyone’s understanding?

Truer words have never been spoken.

[freezer]

Truer words have never been spoken.

:rolleyes: :lol :lol :lol

Try this one instead.....

"You WANT respect, then you need to EARN respect."

or --- and this one --though its been said before --- ABSOLUTELY is the only proper response to that mean-spirited Zomb Manifesto...

"Being a dick in return doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick."





Now the question is: Just how much respect is zomb getting from users of all the sites where they brought their shitstorm?


Anyone can see all the respect bodhisattva earned for zomb in this thread alone.....


I'm sure the tapers reading his hate filled spew must respect the hell out of zomb now.... OR ELSE...... :lol




What next....another bodhisattva 'manifesto' demanding that other sites quit hosting threads laughing in their zomb faces?

[Phishblowz]

Um..... no. You'll just have to get Heather to post using your account. :D

I think this is one of those instances where we'd have to make a call at the time. When I hear that people have uploaded shows here that were just uploaded on another tracker, I try to send a PM to the seeder saying it really is polite to wait until the show has run it's course over on the first tracker. Usually they write back and say they are sorry, but they now understand.

If it were the exact same situation as what happened here, I really don't know. I do know one thing, I would not have gone and posted in the thread on the other site saying that we don't want the recording here at TTD. I think I mentioned earlier that even though I'm not an Admin/Mod on any other site, I am still seen as a spokesperson for TTD and anything I say can be used again the site, so I try very, very, VERY hard to never get into any petty fights on other sites. So, assuming that no one from TTD went over to that other site and said "well fine, we don't want this recording on TTD with that sort of attitude" (or however it was worded) and then the recording showed up over here, I don't think I would pull it, however I do think I would be PMing the seeder and letting them know that we do NOT like site wars and that it is pretty petty to go against the tapers wishes and upload the show over here. I think there would be a lot of PMing going on, basically. And then if he chooses to pull the thread, I would be more than happy to pull it for him/her.

I *think* that the things people were getting a bit perturbed about in this situation is that a) the Admin said he didn't want the show there and would make sure it wouldn't be uploaded there, but then changed his mind and b) it was a Staff member who uploaded the show over there. I can honestly say that I can't see any member of Staff here ever doing something like that. No one on Staff here is the type of person to try to cause such a huge problem like what was caused. Staff here is pretty darned laid back and I just can't see any of them doing that.

that's a very fair approach...I sensed some hypocracy for flaming Zomb for disrespecting the taper when we would potentially do the same here (at a site I respect) and I'm glad you clarified...I did NOT realize that it was an admin who upped it there (though I was aware it was upped in spite) and in knowing this, admin should show a little more maturity if they expect their site (or themselves) to get any respect...I have a different opinion of this knowing that the admin not only didn't actively prevent this over there, but actually caused this...that's a whole other ball of wax, and the staff there should be more considerate and less petty...

I'm sure they could have worked it out with Sebastian if they simply pm'd him and asked that their site (who apparently has a ton of Pumpkins fans) be "approved" to up it for the benefit of many innocent members...I think Sebastian would have been a decent guy and not stood firm on screwing so many innocent folks for the grudge he has with the admin...I don't know him nor am I authorized to speak on his behalf, but he strikes me as a reasonable guy who would have probably dropped the issue having stated his grudge...I think having announced his dislike of the Zomb admin served it's purpose for him to let them know how he felt in a public fashion (even if it was in poor taste) having done that, I believe he'd have let it go...I guess I don't know that, but chances are no one tried to find out either...thanx for your input on the matter Lynne :cool:

[Five]

too many hotheads working at Zomb... sorry to say it, but that's the root of it all.

[Five]

I'm sure they could have worked it out with Sebastian if they simply pm'd him and asked that their site (who apparently has a ton of Pumpkins fans) be "approved" to up it for the benefit of many innocent members...I think Sebastian would have been a decent guy and not stood firm on screwing so many innocent folks for the grudge he has with the admin...I don't know him nor am I authorized to speak on his behalf, but he strikes me as a reasonable guy who would have probably dropped the issue having stated his grudge...I think having announced his dislike of the Zomb admin served it's purpose for him to let them know how he felt in a public fashion (even if it was in poor taste) having done that, I believe he'd have let it go...I guess I don't know that, but chances are no one tried to find out either... :cool:
I agree.

[Spring]

^ jamessk is on the money. I hope awareness comes to a point where sites that do this cannot ignore people’s concerns simply by condemning those who disagree


An Open Response to Bodhisattva/ZOMB/THEZOMB

If you want to find why people are angry with or have a "vendetta" with Zomb as you call it, it really does not take a great deal of sophisticated probing to determine that people's rational resentment towards Zomb stems from a common root: Zomb's unethical behavior. With this shallow and condescending response, bodhisattva takes a page directly from the George W. school of fallacy by suggesting that those who disagree are guilty of trying to spread hate, as though we are drooling idiots incapable of distinguishing between the act of hate and the act holding people accountable for questionable activities, especially when they are entrusted with considerable sums of money.

Another parallel can be drawn with bodhisattva’s allusion of Tapers as “dictators” which is fairly Orwellian. Think about it:

The Zomb exacts stringent control over the public discourse within its forum to root out dissenters.

The taper produces; only to have his work disfigured and dismantled by the whim of parasites.

The Zomb controls and seeks acquisition; using regulation to ensure its role as a gatekeeper of bootleg access.

The taper does not control or seek power; but modestly requests that his creation be distributed in the manner he finds appropriate.

Who’s the dictator? People should determine for themselves, after all, isn’t it the dictator who relies on vapid labels such as “communists,” “trolls,” “terrorists,” “scum,” to instill what people should think without determining their own rational convictions?

On the subject of respect, I had asked a reasonable question about your definition of “donation” so we could have a common understanding of terms and you responded, "Thats all speculation dumb ass." That’s disrespectful. Raping the Taper's of their resources and disincentivizing them from taping in the future is (for lack of a better phrase) to take a giant shit on the smashing pumpkins trading community at large. That’s disrespectful. We still have not come to terms on the same definition of "donation" but I would surmise that Zomb's definition of "donate" is just as faulty as its definition of "slander" (remember, verbal not written) which Zomb purports that dissenters are guilty of (without citations)

Are questions relating to Zomb’s definition of “donations” disrespectful for the fact that they might shed some light and honestly onto a topic that has been charged with irrational and emotional rhetoric that merely serves to obscure everyone’s understanding?

best post ever.

[weedwacker]

I think one key point hasn't been brought up so far. You really should have some sort of a cap on how much any one person can donate. Not like you can't use the money to offset the costs of keeping the community up and running but when you allow large donations they tend to come with assumption they can run your community. I've personally had this problem when I ran irc networks and decided to accept donations to offset operational costs. The cost of the donation in that case is not worth the headache afterwards from the donor and the potential harm it can cause a site from an integrity standpoint.

[spiritinaphoto]

/me points and laughs like nelson muntz "Haw-Ha, your staff is a bunch of damn hippies." :wook:
I resent that--I'm not a hippie! (just look at my list)

[possessed]

and what about the rest of us staff? what, we're not trustworthy? we're not yer friends also?

just so everyone knows, that Possessed guy is a tosser, and the band sucks too











:D
http://img118.exs.cx/img118/1691/hug8ok.gif

You'se my favorite Appalachian, hippy black man! :thumbsup

And for the record, I am a tosser. But I have a special sock for that affliction. http://livinonaprayer.superforos.com/images/smiles/nana.gif

[The Govner]

I think one key point hasn't been brought up so far. You really should have some sort of a cap on how much any one person can donate. Not like you can't use the money to offset the costs of keeping the community up and running but when you allow large donations they tend to come with assumption they can run your community. I've personally had this problem when I ran irc networks and decided to accept donations to offset operational costs. The cost of the donation in that case is not worth the headache afterwards from the donor and the potential harm it can cause a site from an integrity standpoint.I agree......with money comes power (or more problems than it is worth)........just look at how fucked up our election process is because of "contributions" by special interest groups.

[U2Lynne]

I agree......with money comes power (or more problems than it is worth).
Hmmm, we have had some 'bigger than normal' donations here, but I will say that none of those users have ever acted in any way that they expect something special. Never. And, we wouldn't go for it. We don't give special priveliges to donators, we've always said that and have always stood by it.

[The Govner]

Hmmm, we have had some 'bigger than normal' donations here, but I will say that none of those users have ever acted in any way that they expect something special. Never. And, we wouldn't go for it. We don't give special priveliges to donators, we've always said that and have always stood by it.Well....that is good to know! I wished it was like that at all torrent sites but as we have found out that is not the case. :(

[Powderfinger]

Does this mean I am not allowed to solicit donations for video gear and concert tickets...oh, and plane fair and hotel rooms, and um...food, so that I can record U2 the next time they tour??? Even if I give the people who donate the first dibs on the shows???

Man, you guys are seriously fucking up my buzz.

:(

[possessed]

Well....that is good to know! I wished it was like that at all torrent sites but as we have found out that is not the case. :(
Trust me, you receive nothing in return for donations here except a hardy thanks. But as I stated before (several times) Lynne is trustworthy. I wouldn't give my hard earned ducats if she weren't.

[AAR.oner]

And for the record, I am a tosser. But I have a special sock for that affliction. http://livinonaprayer.superforos.com/images/smiles/nana.gif
:lol

i was wonderin why those socks i borrowed were so scratchy on my feet

[The Govner]

Trust me, you receive nothing in return for donations here except a hardy thanks. But as I stated before (several times) Lynne is trustworthy. I wouldn't give my hard earned ducats if she weren't.I wasn't questioning Lynne's integrity! ;)

[ragu421]

Which now Im reminded it's time for my "quarterly donation".Thanks Lynne for all the great work you guys do around here.I know it's not easy and with out you guys "doin what you do best" Id have no collection to speak of.
I say we close this thread.Too damn much whining.If you want to donate to help fund what you enjoy,then please do so.If you dont want too or feel comfortable doing so then dont donate.Its pretty simple.To me anyway.Ill be getting a check out to you guys {I still have yer addy Lynne} this week.THANK YOU for all the hard work. :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[sadu]

As somebody who has donated several times to this wonderful website I only ask that I get a thank you in return...mostly to make sure it has been received without incident.

I do however have a suggestion: Why not have a "donated" sign in our profile. It's just another way to show how each member gives back. Some upload, some are amazing seeders with great connections, some produce artwork, others do Bnp/Vines...why not show those who donate.

Sure my ratio isnt so great but I donate as much as I can and have limited bandwith taboot!

Cheers to TTD - no doubt the best Video site on the web

[possessed]

I wasn't questioning Lynne's integrity! ;)
Of course not. I was backing you up.

[ragu421]

I think thats a cool idea.I dont have any ratio at all because of slow speed connections so Im totally dependant on the generosity of the seeders,viners,b&pers,etc.All you guys fuckin rock and you know who you are!!
Love ya.....mean it!! :wave:

[smashing0]

i guess this thread has taken another left hand turn, and is now the graduation thread? :nerd: ;)I just got my BSc actually
:D
*is still unemployed*

[Sid]

Here's my take on donations & ratio...

First ...donation money should only be used for site bills,maintenance & up keep.
Many organizations that accept donations give percs to the donators.
There is nothing wrong with them showing their appreciation for receiving one.


As far as ratio haters go ....I say :finger:

Example hypothetical

You spend 50 dollars for your isp & I spend 50 dollars for my isp [monthly]

We're each on a torrent with the same amount of leechers & all equal uploads.
Over a 24hr period your ratio is 2.1 and mine is .3.
We've both spent the same amount time & money but your isp gives you better upload speeds.
Does that make you better?
No it does not but some asshats believe they are...again :finger:

Just recently my isp opened up my upload capabilities & I have gone from a .20 to a .49 in
a few weeks here...does that make me better ? I think not.

I donate to about 6 different sites ...some give percs & some don't I see nothing wrong
either way & I don't expect percs. I give because my favorite places on the web need help to stay
a float.

So why all the hate...just keep sharing one way or another it all keeps this music flowin'

Sid

[heymnaooh1]

:lurk:

:yawn:

[Phishblowz]

Example hypothetical

You spend 50 dollars for your isp & I spend 50 dollars for my isp [monthly]

We're each on a torrent with the same amount of leechers & all equal uploads.
Over a 24hr period your ratio is 2.1 and mine is .3.
We've both spent the same amount time & money but your isp gives you better upload speeds.
Does that make you better?
No it does not but some asshats believe they are...again :finger:

Sid

although I understand the argument and in this case I agree, but please understand that most of those here don't have this amazing speed...a lot of us would be on your end of the ratio (in your example) but if you seed for a day and move on while someone else stays for however long it takes to reach 1.0, then that does make a difference...it's not as much about speed as it is about dedixation to sharing...some people have mega-upload speed, but the average guy is somewhere between 30-50k...and they manage to maintain...it's nice to have a great upload speed (makes it a lot easier) but it's wrong to assume that everyone with a good ratio has great upload speed...some people are just that dedicated...FWIW my upload was double the normal (at about 100k) and it's since been cut in half by the cable provider, but my ratio is over 2...so even with "average" speed, I'd have made over the 1.0 mark...I don't think it makes me better, but I just don't want you to think that everyone with a better ratio has a higher upload rate...some people just have better sharing practices...it's not as simple as a speed issue...again, I understand your point, but that's a very simple view, and you should at least acknowledge that some people just work hard to share well...and it's not all about the ISP

[Sid]

although I understand the argument and in this case I agree, but please understand that most of those here don't have this amazing speed...a lot of us would be on your end of the ratio (in your example) but if you seed for a day and move on while someone else stays for however long it takes to reach 1.0, then that does make a difference...it's not as much about speed as it is about dedixation to sharing...some people have mega-upload speed, but the average guy is somewhere between 30-50k...and they manage to maintain...it's nice to have a great upload speed (makes it a lot easier) but it's wrong to assume that everyone with a good ratio has great upload speed...some people are just that dedicated...FWIW my upload was double the normal (at about 100k) and it's since been cut in half by the cable provider, but my ratio is over 2...so even with "average" speed, I'd have made over the 1.0 mark...I don't think it makes me better, but I just don't want you to think that everyone with a better ratio has a higher upload rate...some people just have better sharing practices...it's not as simple as a speed issue...again, I understand your point, but that's a very simple view, and you should at least acknowledge that some people just work hard to share well...and it's not all about the ISP

Agreed ;)

I just get angry at the bashers...many many times I have seen them attack users with lower ratios .
Sometimes it's just a blatant attack & unnecessary .
You have to see the whole picture before accusing someone of "not sharing".
Do they:
Tape shows & upload
Uploads their silvers
Upload reseeds
Donate monetarily
Jump back on to help seed [regardless of isp limits]
Always jump n' run
Work on sites either as mods or technical
Create artworks
Offer their knowledge of events & artists
ect ect........

Also

There are many ways to share including Donating monetarily which all of these sites need.
And if a site offers percs for those who Donate there's nothing wrong with that...IMO

[U2Lynne]

There are many ways to share including Donating monetarily which all of these sites need.
And if a site offers percs for those who Donate there's nothing wrong with that...IMO
If a site offers percs for those who help the site by donating funds, shouldn't the site also offer percs to all those other who contibute to the site by taping, uploading shows, keeping a good ratio, etc? After all, the site wouldn't survive without ALL of those things.

[Sid]

If a site offers percs for those who help the site by donating funds, shouldn't the site also offer percs to all those other who contibute to the site by taping, uploading shows, keeping a good ratio, etc? After all, the site wouldn't survive without ALL of those things.

IMO...Maybe for Tapers & Heavy uploaders/torrent starters but that's up to each individual site...correct ?
Good ratio is part of torrent etiquette & everyone should do their best with that.

I see no reason why giving percs for any extra effort is bad.
Giving a perc for extra effort does not translate into "selling bootlegs"...at least not in my eyes.

Of course it's up to each individual site to set their own rules & of course it's up to each individual to visit/patron any specific site they wish.

[Powderfinger]

I just get angry at the bashers...many many times I have seen them attack users with lower ratios .
Sometimes it's just a blatant attack & unnecessary .

Come on bro....if it is in the Lounge it is fair game right???

:D

[Sid]

Come on bro....if it is in the Lounge it is fair game right???

:D

:thumbsup :thumbsup ... :lol

[zombfuckingsucks]

I see no reason why giving percs for any extra effort is bad.
Giving a perc for extra effort does not translate into "selling bootlegs"...at least not in my eyes.

.

It is a sale because a proposition is made.
(i.e. I'll do A if you give me B)

If this were not the case, prostitution and the sale illegal drugs could be passed off as perks for donation.

[spiritinaphoto]

although I understand the argument and in this case I agree, but please understand that most of those here don't have this amazing speed...a lot of us would be on your end of the ratio (in your example) but if you seed for a day and move on while someone else stays for however long it takes to reach 1.0, then that does make a difference...it's not as much about speed as it is about dedixation to sharing...some people have mega-upload speed, but the average guy is somewhere between 30-50k...and they manage to maintain...it's nice to have a great upload speed (makes it a lot easier) but it's wrong to assume that everyone with a good ratio has great upload speed...some people are just that dedicated...FWIW my upload was double the normal (at about 100k) and it's since been cut in half by the cable provider, but my ratio is over 2...so even with "average" speed, I'd have made over the 1.0 mark...I don't think it makes me better, but I just don't want you to think that everyone with a better ratio has a higher upload rate...some people just have better sharing practices...it's not as simple as a speed issue...again, I understand your point, but that's a very simple view, and you should at least acknowledge that some people just work hard to share well...and it's not all about the ISP
Of course, there's another problem all of you people so adamant on everyone sharing to 1.0 or better seem to miss...it is impossible for everyone to seed to 1.0. For every amount of data beyond the original size of the torrent the seeder shares, it makes it even more difficult for everyone else to get a good ratio, because that's data they could have shared. And the more people you have with share ratios that are significantly above 1.0, the more more uberleechers it will produce. Because the ubersharers shared so much data, there may not be an opportunity for lesser-equipped sharers to share what they have back.

[spiritinaphoto]

Oh, there's a typo I've seen repeated that is bugging me...it is "perk", not "perc". "Perc" would probably be short for percocet, which might be considered a "perk" for various druggies. ;)

[Sid]

Oh, there's a typo I've seen repeated that is bugging me...it is "perk", not "perc". "Perc" would probably be short for percocet, which might be considered a "perk" for various druggies. ;)

I like perc better... ;) :lol :cool:

[dcbullet]

Shouldn't it be perq?

[Sid]

It is a sale because a proposition is made.
(i.e. I'll do A if you give me B)

If this were not the case, prostitution and the sale illegal drugs could be passed off as perks for donation.

It would be a sale if the only way to get the bootleg was by purchasing it ...what about the thousands of copies that members get for free.
Just for being a member they get the same bootlegs for free as the contributors do. I don't belong to any site that says give me 10 dollars or you can't download here.

Thousands of members download away without saying thanks,uploading a show or commenting...their only contribution to the trading community is their computers bandwidth.

So why not give contributing members some extra benefits ?

:horse: :horse:

By the way if you know someone who is giving away free drugs please inform me ;)

[spiritinaphoto]

Shouldn't it be perq?
There's no 'q' in percocet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percocet

[dcbullet]

perquisite

[possessed]

pirq, perck, pirc, perrc

[Sid]

Am I out of line here... :hmm:
Does anyone else get what I'm saying...or am I pissin' into the wind. :headbang2 :lol

[saltman]

Am I out of line here... :hmm:
Does anyone else get what I'm saying...or am I pissin' into the wind. :headbang2 :lolI'm with you.

[Phishblowz]

Of course, there's another problem all of you people so adamant on everyone sharing to 1.0 or better seem to miss...it is impossible for everyone to seed to 1.0. For every amount of data beyond the original size of the torrent the seeder shares, it makes it even more difficult for everyone else to get a good ratio, because that's data they could have shared. And the more people you have with share ratios that are significantly above 1.0, the more more uberleechers it will produce. Because the ubersharers shared so much data, there may not be an opportunity for lesser-equipped sharers to share what they have back.

now that's a cop out...maybe once in a while you MIGHT not be able to get to a 1.0 ratio on a torrent, but most every torrent that dies has hangers on that are left hangin...it's rare that a torrent dies because no one wants it anymore (especially in the video realm) between sharing and reseeding there is no excuse that explains not being able to...I can understand it being a pain in the ass (most certainly) but it can always be done...either pick a dying torrent, hop on a new torrent while it's fresh, or reseed and older one...not that it's required...and not that you "deserve" to be bashed for not being in lockstep with the 1.0 crowd, but it's not fair to blame society or any of that nonsense...if that's the best you care to do, that's fine, but it's a cop out to say this is all I can do...even the uberleechers could do more if we wanted to...there's just a limit to how much everyone cares to do...some people find their limit below 1.0 and some far above...quite frankly I was both...I took all I wanted from these sites when I started and let the ratio stay around .5 until I had enough to satisfy me (which I'm still takin more...but far less than before) and now because of downloading less, my upload caught up (and them some) it all comes down to the amount of effort you wanna put in it...it doesn't make you a bad person to share less than 1.0 but it is inappropriate to make us believe that it is out of your control...just my opinion though...to each their own...I try not to harbor resentment against anyone for these things anymore, so I don't care what people do, but I think it's only fair to be honest...if you did as much as you wanna do and it's okay with you than you should stand up for it and not make excuses and just say you feel you did as much as you feel obligated to do and stand by it...there's nothing wrong with it unless you make excuses...but what do I know...I do my best to live and let live these days so I don't wanna cast judgement, but I'm just callin em as I see em :)

[U2Lynne]

What she is saying is that it is actually IMPOSSIBLE for a site to have everyone with a ratio of at least 1.0, with so many also having over 1.0. That just can't happen. Someone made a long post with all the math and stuff at one point. I should have saved the link cuz I don't feel like writing out a math proof right now. :D

And Sid, no you aren't out of line. Sure, we don't offer up any perks (or percs :D) to those who donate, but I don't know that it's necessarily wrong for some sites to offer some small perks (although obviously some people think any perk is totally wrong). I think I may argue with some about what exactly constitutes a 'small' perk vs something a bit over-the-line.

[dcbullet]

What she is saying is that it is actually IMPOSSIBLE for a site to have everyone with a ratio of at least 1.0, with so many also having over 1.0. That just can't happen.

Some people just aren't good at math Lynne.

[Sid]

Sure, we don't offer up any perks (or percs :D) to those who donate, but I don't know that it's necessarily wrong for some sites to offer some small perks (although obviously some people think any perk is totally wrong). I think I may argue with some about what exactly constitutes a 'small' perk vs something a bit over-the-line.

I can see your point about crossing that ___line. I remember a site that crossed that line and it disappeared rather quickly after crossing it. ;)


Just letting you know that I was'nt suggesting that you add perks here because I enjoy it the way it is. :)
I was just stating that some do & some don't.
I take advantage of some perks & others I don't.

:peace:

[direwolf-pgh]

I can see your point about crossing that ___line. I remember a site that crossed that line and it disappeared rather quickly after crossing it. ;)
that ____line sure sounds like a gray area :D ;) :cool:

[Phishblowz]

as long as there are people stranded on torrents, there are opportunities to improve the ratio...FWIW the uploader of the JGB 11-12-91 is having to reload the show to help a friend get it because 7 are hangin...there's always room for improvement...maybe it's true that EVERYONE may not be able to make a 1.0, but there's enough to go around that everyone who WANTS to have a 1.0 can obtain it...some need to try harder than others (based on upload speeds) but it can be done...just my opinion...again I don't care if you do it or not...but it CAN be done

[Sid]

that ____line sure sounds like a gray area :D ;) :cool:
:lol :lol

[dementrium]

Jesus Christ on a crutch.....it's Saturday night...why the hell are you staring at a computer screen........go out and hear some live music.....and tape it.....why'don't 'cha?

I'm recording a concert from off the FM in 20 minutes.....what are you adding to the trade pool tonight, huh?
:lmao: :clap: :lol
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Home_taping_is_killing_music.png

[spiritinaphoto]

as long as there are people stranded on torrents, there are opportunities to improve the ratio...FWIW the uploader of the JGB 11-12-91 is having to reload the show to help a friend get it because 7 are hangin...there's always room for improvement...maybe it's true that EVERYONE may not be able to make a 1.0, but there's enough to go around that everyone who WANTS to have a 1.0 can obtain it...some need to try harder than others (based on upload speeds) but it can be done...just my opinion...again I don't care if you do it or not...but it CAN be done
I think Lynne needs to find that mathematical proof for you. Let's say everyone wants a ratio of at least 1.0, but there's several people with share ratios significantly greater than 1.0. The only way everyone could get a 1.0 (or very close) would be if the people with higher ratios would leech a bit to drop their ratios, which I don't see happening (people with "good" share ratios tend to be very defensive of their ratios and don't like to see them drop).

I suppose I must be one of the rare people with a "good ratio" who is actually concerned for those lesser equipped sharers.

[Chachi420]

I think Lynne needs to find that mathematical proof for you. Let's say everyone wants a ratio of at least 1.0, but there's several people with share ratios significantly greater than 1.0. The only way everyone could get a 1.0 (or very close) would be if the people with higher ratios would leech a bit to drop their ratios, which I don't see happening (people with "good" share ratios tend to be very defensive of their ratios and don't like to see them drop).

I suppose I must be one of the rare people with a "good ratio" who is actually concerned for those lesser equipped sharers.
that's not true...the proportion of seeders to leechers is small (there are a lot more leechers than seeders).
If everyone was sharing, there would be no opportunity for others to have very high ratios (becuase everyone would be sharing bandwidth, there would be no leechers to "fuel" their high ratios). People have have ratios either because they are seeders, or because there aren't enough people sharing. If everyone was sharing after they download, then their would be no need for you to seed beyond 1.0 (since that bandwidth would be coming from your peers who are also sharing). I hope that makes sense. In other words, you can't share to people that don't need it (since they are getting their bandwith from others), so you will never go beyone 1.0. That example is assuming negligable amount of seeders as compared to leechers, and everyone with approximately equal ul speeds (which is for the most part true).

Here's your mathematical proof! (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showpost.php?p=370550&postcount=44)

[vladsmythe]

I wasn't going to get into this fray, but Chachi420 makes a good point. I can tell you this. When I was a member of the defunct Beatles site (by invitation only) there were not enough leechers. So, you'd sit there after a download complteted and there would not be any fresh leechers. Sometimes 20 seeders 0 leechers for days. That's when I decided to start seeding videos from the Graceful Duck vault. Big uploads mean big ratio improvement. I'm happy to say that with the recent video seeds I've made here, my ratio is improving. I would also add that my natural tendency is to leave the torrent on my HD so that I can help people along well after the bloom has left the initial seeding.

[spiritinaphoto]

that's not true...the proportion of seeders to leechers is small (there are a lot more leechers than seeders).
If everyone was sharing, there would be no opportunity for others to have very high ratios (becuase everyone would be sharing bandwidth, there would be no leechers to "fuel" their high ratios). People have have ratios either because they are seeders, or because there aren't enough people sharing. If everyone was sharing after they download, then their would be no need for you to seed beyond 1.0 (since that bandwidth would be coming from your peers who are also sharing). I hope that makes sense. In other words, you can't share to people that don't need it (since they are getting their bandwith from others), so you will never go beyone 1.0. That example is assuming negligable amount of seeders as compared to leechers, and everyone with approximately equal ul speeds (which is for the most part true).

Here's your mathematical proof! (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showpost.php?p=370550&postcount=44)
You're missing one glaringly obvious problem...some leeches end up seeding well above 1.0 by the time they finish downloading if they get on at just the right peak of the wave. It's because their connection is better (faster and/or not firewalled), so the clients tend to favor connections from those people.

And then of course there is the issue of coming onto a torrent late and no more leeches show up. What then? If you ask me, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme--you just pray you're not the last one left downloading on a torrent.

I suppose you're going to chew out people for being firewalled next, when sometimes they genuinely can't do anything about it (i.e. someone else controls their network and they don't know the password, crappy ISP, etc.).

The simple fact of the matter is that there is always going to be an inequality in share ratios.

[Sid]

You're missing one glaringly obvious problem...some leeches end up seeding well above 1.0 by the time they finish downloading if they get on at just the right peak of the wave. It's because their connection is better (faster and/or not firewalled), so the clients tend to favor connections from those people.

And then of course there is the issue of coming onto a torrent late and no more leeches show up. What then? If you ask me, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme--you just pray you're not the last one left downloading on a torrent.

I suppose you're going to chew out people for being firewalled next, when sometimes they genuinely can't do anything about it (i.e. someone else controls their network and they don't know the password, crappy ISP, etc.).

The simple fact of the matter is that there is always going to be an inequality in share ratios.

Exactly ;)

[dcbullet]

You're missing one glaringly obvious problem...some leeches end up seeding well above 1.0 by the time they finish downloading if they get on at just the right peak of the wave. It's because their connection is better (faster and/or not firewalled), so the clients tend to favor connections from those people.


I agree. Chachi420's example doesn't work. Additionally, there are plenty of people who are the initial seeder and just keep on seeding after the first complete. Once that happens, not everyone in that swarm can get 1:1 (or 1:0.99999, if you want to get technical).

[dementrium]

This advanced mathematical problem can be explained by a simple scenario.

Example

Let's say a tracker start from scratch with 3 users (A, B and C) and a 1:1 ratio requirement.

User A uploads a show.
User B jump in and complete. Then, A drops with 0 down/1 up.
User C jump and complete from B. Then, B drops with 1 down/1 up.

End results

A = 0 down/1 up
B = 1 down/1 up (1:1 ratio)
C = 1 down/0 up (0 ratio)

Which lends to...

A = ratio vigilante (and possibly with a double moral looking at his DaD ratio).
C = banned.
B = Ok. Just wait for user A seeding a second show. After that, B will be banned as well.

[dcbullet]

exactly

[Phishblowz]

You're missing one glaringly obvious problem...some leeches end up seeding well above 1.0 by the time they finish downloading if they get on at just the right peak of the wave. It's because their connection is better (faster and/or not firewalled), so the clients tend to favor connections from those people.

And then of course there is the issue of coming onto a torrent late and no more leeches show up. What then? If you ask me, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme--you just pray you're not the last one left downloading on a torrent.

I suppose you're going to chew out people for being firewalled next, when sometimes they genuinely can't do anything about it (i.e. someone else controls their network and they don't know the password, crappy ISP, etc.).

The simple fact of the matter is that there is always going to be an inequality in share ratios.


you all miss the point that there are many users and many torrents...most of which die with people stranded (where's the ratio hunters) so it's easy to share back what you took...however I realize that for each torrent everyone cannot seed to 1.0, but there are many to choose from, and you can always upload something...these excuses for why you can't have a 1.0 ratio are just excuses...just say you don't care to share and be done with it...most of the people who share over 1.0 do so because they have to...radfordaj23 just had to reload his JGB video to help the last few takers because of the 300+ who completed it (many under a 1.0 I'm sure) no one came back to help out and it rested on the guy who already shared his fair share...a 1.0 is easily obtainable if you care to work for it...but most people do only what they have to and little else...there is no legitimate excuse for it...it just is...I've learned to deal with it, but the excuses still cut through me...I'll accept that you share less than you could (or should) but I won't sit here and smile while excuses are thrown around...I'll call that BS everytime I see it

if it looks and sounds like BS...chances are it's :bs:

[Five]

no you missed the point

it is simple math, not everyone can have a 1.0 or better ratio

that having been said, there are enough members who don't post and don't read the forums who just look for the torrent they want, get to 100% and then immediately close their client and move on. anybody who is reading this is probably not one of those ppl.

if you are the last seed (or one of the last few) don't close your window because we've all had that happen to us and it sucks to be on the other end. in this case it doesn't even matter if you've already shared 10.0.

if you want to get your ratio up, just leave the window open. still not going up? leave it open for two weeks, a month. if you've got something quality to seed, seed it. if you have something really crappy that you want to seed just to get your ratio up, don't bother.

anybody who tries to upload the same amount that they downloaded can do it, even on dial up. there's enough ppl who don't even try or understand the concept whatsoever to fill to quota of necessary low-ratio leeches.

[dcbullet]

no you missed the point

it is simple math, not everyone can have a 1.0 or better ratio

True.

that having been said, there are enough members who don't post and don't read the forums who just look for the torrent they want, get to 100% and then immediately close their client and move on.

Also True.

most of the people who share over 1.0 do so because they have to

This is pure speculation. That's OK though, I like to speculate too. My speculation is that lots of people who have high ratio have that because they just leave their torrent client going all the time. I'll seed a show and just let'er rip for days - weeks! I don't do it because I have to. I just do. It's easy for me in my circumstance.

[freezer]

does everybody at this goddam site have to quote me in their signatures at one time or another?

:lol

[spiritinaphoto]

I'll accept that you share less than you could (or should) but I won't sit here and smile while excuses are thrown around
Excuse me, but are you insinuating that my share ratio isn't sufficient? It's 0.06 higher than yours, so don't you dare imply that my share ratio sucks. :nono:

(And let's not get into quantities uploaded--my capacity isn't what it used to be. I imagine if I was still in the dorms with that insanely good connection, I'd probably be over a terabyte over at DIME, if not here as well.)

[Phishblowz]

does everybody at this goddam site have to quote me in their signatures at one time or another?

:lol

when your posts are as creative as they are...can you blame em...between your posts, and posts re:you, it's hard to find a quote that doesn't quote you :lol

[freezer]

Maybe I should get some ratio credit everytime somebody uses a quote?

:D

[Phishblowz]

Excuse me, but are you insinuating that my share ratio isn't sufficient? It's 0.06 higher than yours, so don't you dare imply that my share ratio sucks. :nono:

(And let's not get into quantities uploaded--my capacity isn't what it used to be. I imagine if I was still in the dorms with that insanely good connection, I'd probably be over a terabyte over at DIME, if not here as well.)

no sir, I didn't mean you, I see it reads that way, but I meant it towards those with poor ratios who rely on excuses...sorry for the misinterpretation...I should've made that clear...in reading it, I would've though that was directed at you as well...I meant it towards the average guy with a shitty ratio and great excuses...sorry to get you riled up friend, I meant no offense to you...frankly I don't even really mean to offend those with a poor ratio...they can do as they please, but to expect to hear their excuses and validate them ain't gonna happen...below 1.0 only happens when you don't care to do more...

of course new guys are likely to blow their ratio on all these great torrents before they settle in, but after awhile it should start to balance out...if they are actively trying to...most people with poor ratios defend themselves with BS excuses rather than standing up and sayin something to the effect of "I do what I please and it is satisfactory to me"...although I still think less of the person with that attitude, I respect him more than the guy with lame excuses about mathematical possibilities and such...if they spent as much time uploading as they do calculating the overall process of bit-torrent, they probably wouldn't have a ratio in need of defense, but what do I know :hmm:

[possessed]

does everybody at this goddam site have to quote me in their signatures at one time or another?

:lol
Nope. You are just a bitter vindictive old man, whereas Brian is actually funny.

[Phishblowz]

This is pure speculation. That's OK though, I like to speculate too. My speculation is that lots of people who have high ratio have that because they just leave their torrent client going all the time. I'll seed a show and just let'er rip for days - weeks! I don't do it because I have to. I just do. It's easy for me in my circumstance.

IMHO I see no reason to share over a 1.0 on any given torrent (unless I'm the only seeder, in which case I'll share as needed) and I think many of the over 1.0 ratio guys would agree that they would rather upload something new than continue to share something old...yes it's speculation, and I don't mean that we wouldn't share after we achieve a 1.0, but I mean for a specific torrent...yes it may be simple to leave the window open and let it run, and some of you may do that...but I know I like to move on to bigger and better things, and many I spoke with feel the same way...it's a pain in the ass to reload an old torrent to help a few stragglers, not that I won't ever do it, but to know that a couple hundred leechers all pissed on the opportunity to help out and left the uploader to bear the burden AGAIN bothers me, and to listen to those same people talk about how there's no one to share the old torrents to??? :wtf: just look around...we got a list on the main page full of torrents needing help...opportunity is everywhere, and all I hear from the masses are excuses as to why they do so little...and the bottom line is that there is NO excuse...people just need to own their behavior and if they are dissatisfied with it, they should improve it...either that or live with it...but don't make excuses for it...that's the only point I have to make...do what you wanna do, but don't take offense when someone calls you out on it...I'm not proud of all the things I have done in my life, but I did em...I can blame society and continue to shame myself by continuing the behavior or I can blame myself and improve...sure it's easier to point the finger, but it's more rewarding to take responsibility (in the long run) but this is just one mans opinion...

we as a society have moved from improving ourselves to accepting ourselves...sometimes we should be ashamed and sometimes it's not okay to feel good about yourself...but these days everyone is special in their own way, and no one feels compelled to do more than what comes naturally...extra effort was the driving force of America, from liberation to automobiles to taking flight...imagine if they were satisifed with the horse and buggy that was available to them...sometimes we need to strive for greatness...and the people who are doing so much around here on this site are pushing it to greatness, while we make torrents, they make excuses...not that everyone should be an uploader (we do need downloaders too) but people should know their role...if you are a taker with no intention to give back what you take (not just in bandwidth but bnps and stuff as well), then do so without trying to make us believe you care so much about this place...you are who you are...don't excuse it...own it

EDIT: this is not directed at any individual person, but is a generalization of what i see from those with poor ratios...I was not thinking of any one person in writing this, just thinking abstractly...so if anyone felt I flamed them personally, I'm sorry...but if you fall in this group I refer to, then maybe you should take it personally...but will you get angry at me for pointing out the facts, or will you better yourself??? :hmm:

[freezer]

Nope. You are just a bitter vindictive old man, whereas Brian is actually funny.

:lol :lol :lol

What a vindictive quote...... :clap:


Meet possessed, another of the taper-unfriendly sanctioned trolls that occasionally stumble from the Lounge..... shame on you, at least you might have thought to use some humor instead on just wasting space trolling in a music thread.......

:rolleyes:

[dcbullet]

IMHO I see no reason to share over a 1.0 on any given torrent (unless I'm the only seeder, in which case I'll share as needed) and I think many of the over 1.0 ratio guys would agree that they would rather upload something new than continue to share something old...yes it's speculation, and I don't mean that we wouldn't share after we achieve a 1.0, but I mean for a specific torrent...yes it may be simple to leave the window open and let it run, and some of you may do that...but I know I like to move on to bigger and better things, and many I spoke with feel the same way...it's a pain in the ass to reload an old torrent to help a few stragglers, not that I won't ever do it, but to know that a couple hundred leechers all pissed on the opportunity to help out and left the uploader to bear the burden AGAIN bothers me, and to listen to those same people talk about how there's no one to share the old torrents to??? :wtf: just look around...we got a list on the main page full of torrents needing help...opportunity is everywhere, and all I hear from the masses are excuses as to why they do so little...and the bottom line is that there is NO excuse...people just need to own their behavior and if they are dissatisfied with it, they should improve it...either that or live with it...but don't make excuses for it...that's the only point I have to make...do what you wanna do, but don't take offense when someone calls you out on it...I'm not proud of all the things I have done in my life, but I did em...I can blame society and continue to shame myself by continuing the behavior or I can blame myself and improve...sure it's easier to point the finger, but it's more rewarding to take responsibility (in the long run) but this is just one mans opinion...

we as a society have moved from improving ourselves to accepting ourselves...sometimes we should be ashamed and sometimes it's not okay to feel good about yourself...but these days everyone is special in their own way, and no one feels compelled to do more than what comes naturally...extra effort was the driving force of America, from liberation to automobiles to taking flight...imagine if they were satisifed with the horse and buggy that was available to them...sometimes we need to strive for greatness...and the people who are doing so much around here on this site are pushing it to greatness, while we make torrents, they make excuses...not that everyone should be an uploader (we do need downloaders too) but people should know their role...if you are a taker with no intention to give back what you take (not just in bandwidth but bnps and stuff as well), then do so without trying to make us believe you care so much about this place...you are who you are...don't excuse it...own it

EDIT: this is not directed at any individual person, but is a generalization of what i see from those with poor ratios...I was not thinking of any one person in writing this, just thinking abstractly...so if anyone felt I flamed them personally, I'm sorry...but if you fall in this group I refer to, then maybe you should take it personally...but will you get angry at me for pointing out the facts, or will you better yourself??? :hmm:


That's all fine. But I'm just letting you know that I speculate there are plenty of people like myself, who just let there torrents run because they can.

Putting a torrent up actually takes quite a bit of time for me, what with the leveling, tracking, figuring out the song names, etc. So when you say that you would rather spend your time uploading something new, that's not the case for me. I let each of my torrents run its course, then go through the work of setting up a new one. Meanwhile I've uploaded like 10 copies. LOL.

I hear your frustration, I just don't share it.

[ragu421]

Smoke a bowl!

[possessed]

:lol :lol :lol

What a vindictive quote...... :clap:


Meet possessed, another of the taper-unfriendly sanctioned trolls that occasionally stumble from the Lounge..... shame on you, at least you might have thought to use some humor instead on just wasting space trolling in a music thread.......

:rolleyes:
Thanks old man!

I troll out of the lounge everyday. Unfortunately, I don't feel like posting in all the forums. Oh and you would know me better if you were actually allowed in the lounge. Says something about you. :disbelief

I'm quite taper friendly. I've seeded shows for tapers on STG that were on dial-up or unable to upload for other reasons. And all my torrents include the original tapers comments and names where known. I don't torrent here anymore, but do so on DAD and have uploaded 4 shows in the last 3 days with thanks to the original tapers and even contact with them for more info. Guess you missed the post where I said respect the taper, otherwise these sites wouldn't exist. I assume you were to busy yelling at the "whippersnappers."

Meet freezer, the owner of many masters that will never see the light of day because he is a bitter old man who prefers to argue then make friends(and feel like he's worshipped for owning such "treasures"). I see him as the angry old codger whom takes your ball when it lands in his yard and yells at you while waving his cane.

:wave: Love ya old man. But I love everyone, just not in the same order.

[freezer]

Thanks old man!

I troll out ............................. :disbelief .......

agreed. :thumbsup


.........Meet freezer, the owner of many masters that will never see the light of day because he is a bitter old man .............. :wave: Love ya old man. But I love everyone, just not in the same order.

Why are you still trolling after me....Do I have something you want?
Do you think I owe you something?
I ask NOTHING from you.


Well, if you think I have something you want, why don't you be nice and prove you're so "taper-friendly" and offer this old taper a trade? Surely with all the tapers 'giving' you stuff, somebody can help you find something to trade.....what is it you want from me that you can't get that made you this angry everytyime you troll after me?

And if you think I have something you want, offer me a trade and then let everyone have what you 'liberate' from freezer.

You wanna blow your horn about what you "share" at DaD .... well, shit-fire bub, you could brag for a whole year about what you 'released' from the freezer, right.....if you can pull off a trade, huh?



HOWEVER: If I don't have anything you want, please go ahead and stifle your need to up your post count by trolling after me again .....


Make up your mind, n00bie....please either PM me for a trade, if you think I have something you want, or please stop being mean-spirited and go away IF you think I don't.

Nobody wants to see this turn into a flame war....so stop it now, possessed.......please.


Oh yeah, I love you too, as much as I respect the president :wave: .......

[possessed]

agreed. :thumbsup




Why are you still trolling after me....Do I have something you want?
Do you think I owe you something?
I ask NOTHING from you.


Well, if you think I have something you want, why don't you be nice and prove you're so "taper-friendly" and offer this old taper a trade? Surely with all the tapers 'giving' you stuff, somebody can help you find something to trade.....what is it you want from me that you can't get that made you this angry everytyime you troll after me?

And if you think I have something you want, offer me a trade and then let everyone have what you 'liberate' from freezer.

You wanna blow your horn about what you "share" at DaD .... well, shit-fire bub, you could brag for a whole year about what you 'released' from the freezer, right.....if you can pull off a trade, huh?



HOWEVER: If I don't have anything you want, please go ahead and stifle your need to up your post count by trolling after me again .....


Make up your mind, n00bie....please either PM me for a trade, if you think I have something you want, or please stop being mean-spirited and go away IF you think I don't.

Nobody wants to see this turn into a flame war....so stop it now, possessed.......please.


Oh yeah, I love you too, as much as I respect the president :wave: .......


Thanks again for proving what an asshole you are. :thumbsup

I have no knowledge of what you have (because you hoard your "stash") so I couldn't tell you if I wish to trade. But if you want to share your Elvis and and Monkees masters (I'm assuming there because you are like what, 70ish), I have some more modern music from the 80's on.

And I have zero interest in sharing your masters for internet fame. The pay is zilch and the high is short lived. I'll stick with trading the music I like not some third rate 50's recordings of long forgotten stars. Have a great night of patting yourself on the back about what you have and others don't. You are nothing more than a Star Wars geek with some action figure in the box that is unique. It gets you admiration of the losers and laughs from the real world.

:finger: sorry if this is your signature. :rolleyes:

[freezer]

Thanks again for proving what an asshole you are. :thumbsup


:finger: sorry if this is your signature. :rolleyes:

Clever and intelligent....... and the finger also....You are some mature gent....yeah, I love ya, dude, .

Since you admit you don't want anything and you admit to trolling, can you go away now?

Oh and ......Hoarde this.........

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38444


http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35705


http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35325


http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27190




:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[U2Lynne]

Did I hear something that was not about donations?

:whip:

(If it's personal, take it away guys!)

[paddington]

best thred ev3r

[vladsmythe]

Buck up burlap and fart gold dust...these cowboys mean business!

[zombfuckingsucks]

It would be appropriate for zomb stop selling boootleg access and apologize for its poor conduct.

[zombfuckingsucks]

Zomb as also avoided any reasonable questioning but has been very happy to give out official responses.

[ragu421]

WTF is a ZOMB?

[zombfuckingsucks]

WTF is a ZOMB?

I'm not exactly sure. I imagine a Zomb would be an underwater sea creature similar to a sponge that absorbs everything it comes into contact with and feeds off of the dead cells of other sea creatures... and then sells it back to the sea community.

[Phishblowz]

this sounds like instigating more useless fighting...the point was made, but I think you're just :horse:

friends know when to say when :cheers:

[zombfuckingsucks]

Rationality is not a dead horse and never has been. Some things are just not permissible nor endorse my tacit consent. It had to be said. :clap:

[Five]

this sounds like instigating more useless fighting...the point was made, but I think you're just :horse:

friends know when to say when :cheers:
I agree. this thread is becoming zombfuckingsucks telling himself that zomb fucking sucks.

thread closed