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showtaper
2007-03-01, 02:54 PM
Banned for the wrong reason: JETHRO TULL 1978-10-09 Madison Square Garden, NYC (NTSC)

Reason given for removal:

9. Only DVDs produced as DVDs may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD). Converting a lesser quality video to DVD does not make the quality of the video any better, and is therefore pointless. It is equivilent to creating a flac fileset from mp3s simply because the flac format came around and is better than all others. None of the above mentioned video codecs are up to par with The Trader's Den Video BT Seeding Guidelines, and therefore, will not be allowed on the tracker.

Please read the following concerning VALID DVD video formats:

The typical video resolution for an NTSC disc is 720 480, while a PAL disc is 720 576. The specifications for video files on a DVD can be any of the following:

Up to 9.8 Mbit/s (9800 kbit/s) MPEG-2 video
Up to 1.856 Mbit/s (1856 kbit/s) MPEG-1 video
PAL:
720 576 pixels MPEG-2 (Called full D1)
704 576 pixels MPEG-2
352 576 pixels MPEG-2 (Called Half-D1, same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 288 pixels MPEG-2
352 288 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)
NTSC:
720 480 pixels MPEG-2 (Called full D1)
704 480 pixels MPEG-2
352 480 pixels MPEG-2 (Called Half-D1, same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 240 pixels MPEG-2
352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)

The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1 352 x 240 and is therefore
DVD compliant. The poster even mentioned that he did not re-encode.
The video is not "converted" to make a DVD, it is valid as is. Your "rule"
is not even technically correct.

The REAL REASON that this should be banned is that a major portion of this
broadcast has been officially released.

KoolKat
2007-03-01, 03:54 PM
How did you work out that mpeg 1 is DvD compliant.
Read what you wrote chap

The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1 352 x 240
and you've already said
352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)

basically it was an authored VCD that WILL play in a DvD player as a DvD ,dont get me wrong,but only because of the 352 as THAT is DvD compliant.Half of 704 which is a cropped DvD Standard as well

But the torrent was still mpeg 1 which is NOT a DvD standard its a VCD standard.

With me

So it would be pulled...but definatly now that you add the extra info with it being official whether it was DvD,VCD or even a cup of Brooke Bond D Tea

K_K

schmoe75
2007-03-01, 07:44 PM
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34879
An officially released VCD, even better :rolleyes:

9. Only DVDs produced as DVDs may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

mpeg1 = VCD (whether its put on a dvd or not, its still a lossy compressed piece of shit VCD)

So the reason it was pulled is valid ....the fact its an OR (which was not known until this thread) only provides a 2nd reason.


THANX KK :thumbsup

Banned for the wrong reason: JETHRO TULL 1978-10-09 Madison Square Garden, NYC (NTSC)

Reason given for removal:

9. Only DVDs produced as DVDs may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD). Converting a lesser quality video to DVD does not make the quality of the video any better, and is therefore pointless. It is equivilent to creating a flac fileset from mp3s simply because the flac format came around and is better than all others. None of the above mentioned video codecs are up to par with The Trader's Den Video BT Seeding Guidelines, and therefore, will not be allowed on the tracker.

Please read the following concerning VALID DVD video formats:

The typical video resolution for an NTSC disc is 720 480, while a PAL disc is 720 576. The specifications for video files on a DVD can be any of the following:

Up to 9.8 Mbit/s (9800 kbit/s) MPEG-2 video
Up to 1.856 Mbit/s (1856 kbit/s) MPEG-1 video
PAL:
720 576 pixels MPEG-2 (Called full D1)
704 576 pixels MPEG-2
352 576 pixels MPEG-2 (Called Half-D1, same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 288 pixels MPEG-2
352 288 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)
NTSC:
720 480 pixels MPEG-2 (Called full D1)
704 480 pixels MPEG-2
352 480 pixels MPEG-2 (Called Half-D1, same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 240 pixels MPEG-2
352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)

The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1 352 x 240 and is therefore
DVD compliant. The poster even mentioned that he did not re-encode.
The video is not "converted" to make a DVD, it is valid as is. Your "rule"
is not even technically correct.

The REAL REASON that this should be banned is that a major portion of this
broadcast has been officially released.

showtaper
2007-03-01, 10:58 PM
How did you work out that mpeg 1 is DvD compliant.
Read what you wrote chap

The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1 352 x 240
and you've already said
352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard)

basically it was an authored VCD that WILL play in a DvD player as a DvD ,dont get me wrong,but only because of the 352 as THAT is DvD compliant.Half of 704 which is a cropped DvD Standard as well

But the torrent was still mpeg 1 which is NOT a DvD standard its a VCD standard.

With me

So it would be pulled...but definatly now that you add the extra info with it being official whether it was DvD,VCD or even a cup of Brooke Bond D Tea

K_K

352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard) is DVD compliant.
Please spend two seconds and look up the specification. All the formats
listed in my previous post are DVD COMPLIANT.

Whether or not it looks like shit is a completely different issue.

I couldn't look at the posters files as the thread is locked. Try reading
his comments, he took a DVD compliant MPEG-1 file and AUTHORED
a DVD from it. Read what someone else wrote, chap.

Personally, I have a line feed recording of this broadcast (provided by a
friend at Chrysalis records) which includes footage not broadcast, so I'm
not really interested in this torrent, just the bogus reason for its removal.

BTW - this was never released as an official VCD. Portions have been
included on official videocassette and DVD. You don't need anything more
than a quick google to figure this out.........

gsmyth79
2007-03-01, 11:04 PM
352 240 pixels MPEG-1 (Same as the VCD Standard) is DVD compliant.
Please spend two seconds and look up the specification. All the formats
listed in my previous post are DVD COMPLIANT.

Please reread this:
9. Only DVDs produced as DVDs may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

This is TTD's policy because a VCD is the video equivalent of mp3. We are trying to maintain standards here, it does not matter that it is DVD compliant. Many CD players can now play mp3s but we still don't allow them here. Same thing for VCDs. Not sure how much clearer this can be.

You may think these standards are arbitrary and wrong but they are there for a reason. If you have a problem with that then take your torrent over to thepiratebay or something.

showtaper
2007-03-01, 11:38 PM
Please reread this:
9. Only DVDs produced as DVDs may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

This is TTD's policy because a VCD is the video equivalent of mp3. We are trying to maintain standards here, it does not matter that it is DVD compliant. Many CD players can now play mp3s but we still don't allow them here. Same thing for VCDs. Not sure how much clearer this can be.

You may think these standards are arbitrary and wrong but they are there for a reason. If you have a problem with that then take your torrent over to thepiratebay or something.

Not my torrent. Doesn't anyone here have the ability to construct a valid
thought? A DVD produced from any compliant file IS A FUCKING DVD.
Any MPEG video is lossy and would qualify as the "equivalent of mp3".

What I have a problem with is the wording of your rule. The torrent as
uploaded was produced as a DVD. Change your wording to read:

"Only DVDs produced from MPEG-2 files will be allowed here."

But wait! What about these other evil DVD compliant files???

NTSC:
352 480 pixels MPEG-2 (Called Half-D1, same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 240 pixels MPEG-2

Your rule is arbitrary. Period.

Take your attitude over to www.gofuckyourself.com. Not sure how much clearer this can be.

KoolKat
2007-03-02, 04:58 AM
Calm down showtaper

DvD stands for Digital VERSATILE Disc ok ,meaning that it able to do or be used for many things.But it must be "compliant" for it to play.

So yes,a VCD is DvD compliant meaning only that it will play if you put it on a "DvD" disc....but a VCD is NOT DvD standard.
Best scenario is that if no re-encoding took place,then it was recorded as a Mpeg 1 VCD ,that is DvD compliant...NOT a DvD mpeg2 "STANDARD"

compliant vs standard is your point that you are questioning and at TTD we only accept STANDARD

Getting it yet??

K_K

So your www.gofuckyourself comment to a mod is not really correct either.

Try looking at www.imustlearnwhatiknowfuckallabout.com

AAR.oner
2007-03-02, 07:05 AM
simple as this showtaper, the show yer talking about is below our standards...whether or not it is compliant in regards to playability makes no difference...despite the fact that all these formats you keep bringing up are "compliant", they are NOT the standard...honestly, i would guess less than 1% of all professional DVDs produced last year were sourced from footage with one of those specs [and thats probly generous]...

as for our rules, we don't say anything re: any file that's compliant, we specify none that are from VCD/SVCD/DivX etc spec'd material, which this show is from

yes, all DVDs are lossy, which is why we only allow "the best" in regards to the MPEG codec suite [and you know which that is]...fact of the matter, a 352x240 MPEG1 is not going to have near the quality as a 720x480 MPEG2...you can argue all you want, but that is the simple truth

whether or not you don't like the wording, sure maybe we could change it...but up to this point, everyone has understood what we meant by that rule...and so do you, i have a feeling...but i'm sure we could edit it :rolleyes:

schmoe75
2007-03-02, 07:55 AM
I dont know where he got "The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1 352 x 240 and is therefore DVD compliant. "...maybe I'm missing something but "DVD Compliant" is not listed anywhere in the rule.

A DVD produced from any compliant file IS A FUCKING DVD.
NO its FUCKING NOT...its still a VCD dumbass (a VCD authored and recorded onto a DVD is NOT a DVD....its nothing more than a VCD recorded onto a DVD)

Doesn't anyone here have the ability to construct a valid
thought? Take your attitude....Not sure how much clearer this can be.
:roflol:
thats actually funny considering you're the one who stated this thread with an attitude.


Any MPEG video is lossy and would qualify as the "equivalent of mp3".
believe it or not with your vast array of knowledge, transferring, and authoring skills...we the staff actually know that MPEG2 is a compressed lossy source, but considering its not feasible at this point technology wise to record a 20 gig LOSSLESS AVI file onto a disc and/or distribute it on the net...MPEG2 is the BEST, HIGHEST QUALITY source.

showtaper
2007-03-02, 07:59 AM
simple as this showtaper, the show yer talking about is below our standards...whether or not it is compliant in regards to playability makes no difference...despite the fact that all these formats you keep bringing up are "compliant", they are NOT the standard...honestly, i would guess less than 1% of all professional DVDs produced last year were sourced from footage with one of those specs [and thats probly generous]...

as for our rules, we don't say anything re: any file that's compliant, we specify none that are from VCD/SVCD/DivX etc spec'd material, which this show is from

yes, all DVDs are lossy, which is why we only allow "the best" in regards to the MPEG codec suite [and you know which that is]...fact of the matter, a 352x240 MPEG1 is not going to have near the quality as a 720x480 MPEG2...you can argue all you want, but that is the simple truth

whether or not you don't like the wording, sure maybe we could change it...but up to this point, everyone has understood what we meant by that rule...and so do you, i have a feeling...but i'm sure we could edit it :rolleyes:

Actually, when I'm in a shit mood, I just like to fuck with people.

Just keep those 23rd generation VHS transfers coming folks, as long as
they are Traders Den compliant, they are "the best".....

schmoe75
2007-03-02, 08:08 AM
Just keep those 23rd generation VHS transfers coming folks, as long as
they are Traders Den compliant, they are "the best".....
There you go again w/ "compliant"...where exactly is compliant mentioned in the rule again?

In the end, everything comes down to the discretion of the staff. If you dont like it, no one is forcing you to stay ....feel free to visit www.gofuckyourself.com ...i hear they have tons of 23rd Gen VCD's. :wave:

You're the only person in the 2+ yrs of the site who hasnt gotten this...
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

mpeg1 is a VCD
What part of this do you NOT get exactly?

KoolKat
2007-03-02, 10:41 AM
Here you go schmoe...borrow this m8 :lol

schmoe75
2007-03-02, 11:07 PM
Thank you sir :lmao:

showtaper
2007-03-02, 11:41 PM
There you go again w/ "compliant"...where exactly is compliant mentioned in the rule again?

In the end, everything comes down to the discretion of the staff. If you dont like it, no one is forcing you to stay ....feel free to visit www.gofuckyourself.com ...i hear they have tons of 23rd Gen VCD's. :wave:

You're the only person in the 2+ yrs of the site who hasnt gotten this...
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here with conversions from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

mpeg1 is a VCD
What part of this do you NOT get exactly?

That you're fun, for an idiot.

I was just pointing out that your rule is self-contradictory and should
be revised to accurately reflect the requirements.

Never said I didn't like it, never said I didn't understand it. I said it was
wrong and it still is. Want me to explain what is contradictory about
your rule one more time?? Or don't you understand??

schmoe75
2007-03-03, 12:11 AM
That you're fun, for an idiot.

I was just pointing out that your rule is self-contradictory and should
be revised to accurately reflect the requirements.

Never said I didn't like it, never said I didn't understand it. I said it was
wrong and it still is. Want me to explain what is contradictory about
your rule one more time?? Or don't you understand??
One more time?...what you've explained so far is your obvious ignorance as to what an MPEG-1 is.

So, if I compile a bunch of mp3's and put them on a dvd...i guess it makes that a DVD as well since it's "DVD compliant", so we should allow that? :rolleyes:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_videorules
9. Only DVDs produced from MPEG-2 may be seeded here.
No DVDs will be allowed to be seeded here which were sourced from lesser quality video (ie. VCD/SVCD/DivX/xvid/etc converted to DVD).

Edited...happy now?
:finger:

U2Lynne
2007-03-03, 12:52 AM
I went and revised the rule to make it (hopefully) more specific. I hope this helps explain what we are asking for.

rocknroll
2007-03-03, 08:49 AM
I think it was clear enough already.. showtaper said it himself in the first post:
"The file in the torrent was listed as MPEG-1" MPEG-1 is not up to standards. it's VCD encoding.
there is nothing hard to understand about that, especially after it was explained (I counted 8 times). :hmm:

ragu421
2007-03-03, 11:44 AM
All of the "technobabble" I do not understand but thought Id toss my 2 cents out there anyway.I agree with the mods.If they say a particular show isnt up to TDD standards and they dont want it here makes sense to me.I would only want th highest possible quality in my collection and I think that is the same thing that they are after.Ive gotton so much "junk" from other sites that just ended up being tossed in the trash because they were "lossy".As for my personal experiences with the staff here,they seem to be trying to protect the integrity of what is traded or uploaded here so that it dosent get spread around like some kind of virus.Also,seeing how they do all of the "work" around here with no pay,etc just so we can get some good honest quality music/video, I respect their wishes.Like I said, thats just my 2 cents. :wave:

tacoburrito
2007-03-03, 01:27 PM
Whats funny to me is that the person who posted the Tull torrent here mentioned in the initial post that he thought the DVD was not allowed due to the MPEG1 origin and to have the mods pull it if it isnt up to spec. Then we have someone else whining about it. :clap: :disbelief :hmm: :D


too funny...

gsmyth79
2007-03-03, 03:47 PM
I think it's just showtaper's time of the month.

:rolleyes:

KoolKat
2007-03-03, 06:17 PM
Looked at the new Rule 9 Lynne & i think that about makes it as square as possible. ;)


However on reading that i did just happen to read something else.... :lol about RULE 10

10. No Reauthored DVDs are allowed.
We do not allow any reauthored DVDs to be seeded. This includes any DVD9>DVD5 reauthors. Please seed the DVDs in the original released form. Once you download the show, you may do what you want to it, but please don't trade/share your reauthored DVDs here.


Re-authoring does not change anything when making a DvD.The mpeg structure stays the same as it was before it was ,if you see what i mean.
You are only building the info of the mpeg solely so that the player knows the score when it goes to play it.
Where all the chapters are etc.
Supposing i get a DvD in a trade & it has 5 minute chapters at incorrect positions and no menu.Well that would be re-authored to put them in,but the content stays the same.

Surely you mean No Transcoding ie :re-compressed like DvD Shrink does...Not Re-authored i feel

K_K

schmoe75
2007-03-03, 07:33 PM
Supposing i get a DvD in a trade & it has 5 minute chapters at incorrect positions and no menu.Well that would be re-authored to put them in,but the content stays the same.

Surely you mean No Transcoding ie :re-compressed like DvD Shrink does...Not Re-authored i feel

K_K
Yes & no K_K, that one does need some clarification...'re-authoring' that SA you got in a trade, to put a menu/chapter points on it and seed here is ok.

The rule came about because we were questioned as to whether it would be ok to take a show seeded here as a DVD9 to be shrunk/reauthored as DVD5's (for all those poor souls who cant deal with a dual layer :rolleyes: ) ...obviously, thats unacceptable.

There has also been issues of people taking someone else's 'authored' work, and re-authoring it because they didnt like the menu or whatever reason, then trying to pass it off as their own.
Seeing as how you can 'reauthor' losslessly.....out of respect to the tapers and authors who release shows specifically, to not have their work 'reauthored' w/o their knowledge or permission.

...thats the intent of the rule :thumbsup

freezer
2007-03-03, 10:46 PM
............
There has also been issues of people taking someone else's 'authored' work, and re-authoring it because they didnt like the menu or whatever reason, then trying to pass it off as their own.

Might this also pertain to audio? That is, in reagerds to raw master recordings versus "REMASTERS"?


............Seeing as how you can 'reauthor' losslessly.....out of respect to the tapers and authors who release shows specifically, to not have their work 'reauthored' w/o their knowledge or permission.

...thats the intent of the rule :thumbsup

Does this also pertain to the MASTER copies of audio recordings provided by old school analog tapers who made the recordings??? :thumbsup



10. No Reauthored DVDs are allowed.
We do not allow any reauthored DVDs to be seeded. This includes any DVD9>DVD5 reauthors. Please seed the DVDs in the original released form. Once you download the show, you may do what you want to it, but please don't trade/share your reauthored DVDs here.

This looks like a step in a positive direction, congratulations for spelling the rule out so clear.


NOW, Will this be reflected in the rules for audio in order to preserve the integrity of raw analog MASTER recordings offered at TTD?

karmakat
2007-03-03, 11:48 PM
^^^ a valid point

U2Lynne
2007-03-04, 12:00 AM
Might this also pertain to audio? That is, in reagerds to raw master recordings versus "REMASTERS"?
We disallow DVD9 to DVD 5 because it is lossy. As pointed out by KoolKat, we used a word that was probably not the best word to describe what we asked for. We will change the wording on that rule. Joe explained the intent of the rule above.

Does this also pertain to the MASTER copies of audio recordings provided by old school analog tapers who made the recordings??? :thumbsup
We allow people to post bootlegs of shows or even remasters of taped shows. We ask that if someone does a remaster of a show that they state the lineage and also some remastering notes. We don't pull remasters if they do that. Do we think it is good etiquette to ask a taper before someone remasters the show? Yes. But, we can't and don't enforce it.

NOW, Will this be reflected in the rules for audio in order to preserve the integrity of raw analog MASTER recordings offered at TTD?
No. As stated, KoolKat pointed out that we used the wrong wording for the rule. We knew our intent, as Joe stated it, but we worded it wrong. We will be rewording this rule to state our intent - that the video not be changed in a lossy way. We don't want audio changed from lossless to lossy to lossless either. But, the way to accomplish this for audio and video is different and they need different written rules.

I think many users have expressed an interest to have the raw recording shared and so many tapers do that (here and on most sites).

freezer
2007-03-04, 11:28 AM
I see....no preservation of integrity.......for raw audio masters....


So I might as well "REMASTER" my own recordings before releasing same?

:cool:




Gee, now won't that thwart the efforts of some of the remastering crowd, if I decide to randomly introduce or remove sonic frequency changes into master recordings?

Oh yeah, that's the same thing the remaster crowd already does here quite often.....hmmmm? :rolleyes:



Remaster --- Wouldn't that kinda defeat the purpose of using the word integrity?

Maybe this rule should also be re-written (remastered) for clarity?



We will change the wording on that rule.

You also might please consider removing the word "integrity" if the preservation aspect of raw master recordings isn't enforced.

:hmm:




We have come together to create an online trading site with an entirely new ideology. This site will be geared towards a certain kind of collector: those who feel quality and integrity are important. Our policies will seem demanding to many users, but we have witnessed the decline in overall quality in many other trading circles due to lax restrictions.

We offer a safe haven for traders frustrated with the dilution of quality in the trading pool, as well as our combined experience and devotion to helping new users enter an elite trading community.

^^^ :thumbsup


Quality is not an option in the seeds here, it will be the standard.


^^^ :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup



Oh well, there's a handful of my RAW master recordings already on the way to be shared here.

Are they all "fair game" to have their integrity removed? :nono:

U2Lynne
2007-03-04, 11:45 AM
Freezer, what you may want to do is when people torrent your raw recordings, ask them to add something in the text file like "Feel free to spread this show in it's raw form only. The taper has requested that this show not be spread in a remastered form." (I'm sure you can come up with much better verbage than I. :cool: ) We do ask that text files get passed on with the show and many people will respect the wishes voiced in the text file.

schmoe75
2007-03-04, 11:53 AM
Are they all "fair game" to have their integrity removed? :nono:
No...
We don't want audio changed from lossless to lossy to lossless either. But, the way to accomplish this for audio and video is different and they need different written rules.
:thumbsup
there's a handful of my RAW master recordings already on the way to be shared here.
NICE....though it should, I bet it still doesnt end the discussion on lineage :D

freezer
2007-03-04, 04:59 PM
Are they all "fair game" to have their integrity removed? :nono:

No...


What would you propose?

In regards to rule changes for audio....

I know this is a sore subject for five; the dissemination of altered sources instead of unaltered masters...I'll bet he's got some ideas.......




We don't want audio changed from lossless to lossy to lossless either. But, the way to accomplish this for audio and video is different and they need different written rules.

ok, granted......

:thumbsup

Indeed and agreed, but we don't want to promote any double standards either, do we?

:nono:




there's a handful of my RAW master recordings already on the way to be shared here.

NICE....though it should, I bet it still doesn't end the discussion on lineage :D

Well, there's no Led Zeppelin or Zappa involved so it's cool...... :lol

AAR.oner
2007-03-05, 07:55 AM
Looked at the new Rule 9 Lynne & i think that about makes it as square as possible. ;)


However on reading that i did just happen to read something else.... :lol about RULE 10

10. No Reauthored DVDs are allowed.
We do not allow any reauthored DVDs to be seeded. This includes any DVD9>DVD5 reauthors. Please seed the DVDs in the original released form. Once you download the show, you may do what you want to it, but please don't trade/share your reauthored DVDs here.


Re-authoring does not change anything when making a DvD.The mpeg structure stays the same as it was before it was ,if you see what i mean.
You are only building the info of the mpeg solely so that the player knows the score when it goes to play it.
Where all the chapters are etc.
Supposing i get a DvD in a trade & it has 5 minute chapters at incorrect positions and no menu.Well that would be re-authored to put them in,but the content stays the same.

Surely you mean No Transcoding ie :re-compressed like DvD Shrink does...Not Re-authored i feel

K_K
just want to clarify for others who might read this, yer correct re: transcoding, however this does occur sometimes when re-authoring if someone doesn't really know what they're are doing...

in layman's terms--there are two ways of re-authoring, one which does not include re-compression [which is what you're describing]...the other way includes re-compressing, and is considered a no-no here...

even when it comes to a SA recording that needs menus/chapters, it can be done either way--all we ask is whoever does the re-author know what they're doing so as not to compress again

if anything, i'm glad this thread is leading to some revisions in our FAQ/Rules...clarifying the wording is always a good thing