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View Full Version : Does poor ratio equate bad trader?


calvin1663
2006-06-13, 04:34 PM
not to get involved in this OK corall shootout or anything, but I must say something's afoot. When someone's got 2 posts highly recommending him versus an angry, crummy ratio person who bashes potheads...

I'm sorry, but just as a complete outside observer, YOU look like the one at fault...

Edit by U2Lynne: I split this arguement out from a Bad Trader thread since it got very off topic into a debate about whether a person with a bad ratio would perhaps also be a bad snail mail trader.

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 04:42 PM
Ratio has no fucking bearing at all on a snailmail trade Calvin, this site also doesnt inforce ratios and some of us have very poor upstreams through no faults of our own. Go play ratio cop on your Coldplay hub. It is no indication whatsoever of a traders ability to fulfill snail mail trades.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21515

How come he looks at fault? Ragu came on here and stated that everything he was sent didnt work, and now this guy is reporting that Ragu has rated everything he sent him. That looks a bit fishy in its own right and Ragu has some explaining to do as well.

calvin1663
2006-06-13, 06:04 PM
Go play ratio cop on your Coldplay hub.

How come he looks at fault?


at your first point: leechers are no good. as a GENERAL RULE, people with lower share ratios tend to be the ones taking from the community without giving back as much (if you're going to leech a torrent, make sure you can seed at least 1:1), hence, someone with a lower ratio would tend to be someone who would not give back as much, thereby making it more likely they'd rip someone off

second point: as I stated above, ragu already had two posts to his credit saying he was an "excellent trader...highly recommended...very nice," so it would seem that he was the one on the good end of the spectrum. secondly, woody created a thread with a smi-nonsensical topic title, obviously written in haste and anger (note the multiple capitalizations, reapeating himself, etc.), which leads me to believe that he's a bit hot-headed. In short, if you don't like my points (and as I said "complete outside observer"), you can cram it up your ass, please.

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 06:54 PM
at your first point: leechers are no good. as a GENERAL RULE, people with lower share ratios tend to be the ones taking from the community without giving back as much (if you're going to leech a torrent, make sure you can seed at least 1:1), hence, someone with a lower ratio would tend to be someone who would not give back as much, thereby making it more likely they'd rip someone off
.

Oh bullshit, you cannot deduct at all that anyone who leeches is going to be a bad snailmail trader. You're making invalid assumptions, do you have proof of this theory? A lot of people will also take advantage of that lack of rule, but it does not insinuate that that person is a thief or has any intention of being a thief. You're lobbing everyone who has a bad ratio without taking into account more likely things, that they are technologically not able to, etc. Prick.

This site does not enforce ratios, it states in the rules if you cant seed, give back another way, a LOT of people do that. Secondly, you're neither a mod nor an admin on here and every thread I see you posting in you're a fucking nazi about ratios.

If I dont like your points (which I dont) I will say so and if you dont like it, I really couldnt care less.

In woody's defense, if I am ripped off, Im going to get angry too, ESPECIALLY after (if hes telling the truth) what hes been through with this deal.

Way to look at both sides of the coin.

twistedintheNW
2006-06-13, 07:45 PM
not to get involved in this OK corall shootout or anything, but I must say something's afoot. When someone's got 2 posts highly recommending him versus an angry, crummy ratio person who bashes potheads...

I'm sorry, but just as a complete outside observer, YOU look like the one at fault...

I completely agree. If a trader can't keep their ratio up there is a GREAT chance they will be a crappy snail mail trader. Thats just the way it works out. Looks like skodechoker, a shitty ratio holder himself, is sticking up for his kind. Makes sense.

And I've been trading with ragu for close to 2 years now I think?? Excellent trader. In fact, when he was first starting out he sent me discs that wouldn't work....twice! I sent a quick email each time and he priority mailed me replacements each time. He's gotten everything straightened out with the burning errors now and is a recognized great trader in our community.

In addition I've seen him on all the boards offering BnPs and trades. IMO we need more people like him in the community :thumbsup

True and I agree there are things in this issue that need to be sorted, Ragu was on a bit ago and did not comment.

I'd be willing to bet he didn't see it. Send him a PM and he'll chime in.

EDIT: POTHEADS = GOOD TRADERS. Count on it ;)

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 07:48 PM
. Looks like skodechoker, a shitty ratio holder himself, is sticking up for his kind. Makes sense.
.

:lol: cock

I have a shitty ratio because of technology (avg 2.3 or something u/l) however look at the post below this one, look in the Vines forum.

As the rules to this site states, give back if you cant via the torrents.

way to make fucking assumptions on a persons ability to snail mail trade. IT HAS NO BEARING AT ALL and if you think otherwise, you're paranoid delusional.

Chachi420
2006-06-13, 08:02 PM
Ratio has no fucking bearing at all on a snailmail trade Calvin, ....
I couldn't disagree more....It's called a snail mail trade because the person getting discs also gives discs. That takes care of itself. Downloading and uploading are separate ballgames, my friend. The only exception is if someone is giving out mad amounts of freebies, which I doubt is happening in most cases. People just scapegoat their bad ratios off by saying, 'well I mail trade so that takes care of my bad ratio' FUCK THAT! That serves as dishoronable to those kind souls who try to provide music to us all by using their bandwidth to continually upload in order to share the groove...
sorry for my rant, but it is due every so often when people just don't realize...
peace & SHARE THE GROOVE,
Chachi420

PS-also, it is a known fact that almost EVERYBODY can dl faster than they can ul...it's just how internet connections are setup. There is no excuse for people to give that as a reason for crappy ratios. These people just want to take advantage of the nice people trying to share music with them out of the kindness of their hearts.

"If you're ratio is less than 1.0, then you are stealing from the TTD community" ~Chachi420

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 08:14 PM
I couldn't disagree more....It's called a snail mail trade because the person getting discs also gives discs. That takes care of itself. Downloading and uploading are separate ballgames, my friend. The only exception is if someone is giving out mad amounts of freebies, which I doubt is happening in most cases. People just scapegoat their bad ratios off by saying, 'well I mail trade so that takes care of my bad ratio' FUCK THAT! That serves as dishoronable to those kind souls who try to provide music to us all by using their bandwidth to continually upload in order to share the groove...


You just agreed with me or at the very least contradicted yourself. A snail mail trade is a seperate issue from torrents/ratio.

I have a shitty ratio, I know I do and I do everything else I can to stop that from happening, a lot of the torrents Ive downloaded since Ive joined (April) were old and did not have a lot of leechers. Also, my upstream is capped BADLY, I might add by my ISP. It limits my upload speed to 5kpbs while my download gets as high as 500 sometimes.

If a trade is disc for discs, how can someone assume another person is a bad SNAIL MAIL trader because of their technological capabilities? Does a technology capability or incapability hinder their ability to burn and mail? Absolutely fucking not. It should have no bearing whatsoever. If it does well thats stupid. Its one thing if someone is leeching blatantly its another if its a technological hinderance.

I have a bad ratio because I have no other option and when I can open a torrent that needs it for someone else I do, I also set up vines and will do B&P when I can.

I dont see how a ratio should affect ANYONE in terms of other methods. There are extenuating circumstances (like mine) for a lot of people. If it was that much of a problem this place would enforce ratios and not provide other suggestions of sharing.

Chachi420
2006-06-13, 08:52 PM
... Its one thing if someone is leeching blatantly its another if its a technological hinderance.
.
I have to disagree...taking more than you give causes problems and torrents die early. By dl 500kbps and ul only 5kbps as you mention you do, this means that you are robbing others of downloading that torrent since you are stealing all of the bandwidth...irregardless of whether it is isp-limited or not (everybody is isp-limited bandwidth btw).
Simply put, if you do not share back what is shared to you, then you are depriving others of the music experience. That is great that you do mail trades, but how does that help out those that are stranded on torrents? It doesn't.
If everyone tried to share back what the receive via bittorrent, then the torrents would never die, and people would never get stranded...

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 09:01 PM
I have to disagree...taking more than you give causes problems and torrents die early. By dl 500kbps and ul only 5kbps as you mention you do, this means that you are robbing others of downloading that torrent since you are stealing all of the bandwidth...irregardless of whether it is isp-limited or not (everybody is isp-limited bandwidth btw).
Simply put, if you do not share back what is shared to you, then you are depriving others of the music experience. That is great that you do mail trades, but how does that help out those that are stranded on torrents? It doesn't.
If everyone tried to share back what the receive via bittorrent, then the torrents would never die, and people would never get stranded...

Did you even read what I posted? I joined this site in April, probably 90% of the torrents Ive jumped on are dead because they were light as it was and I wanted to catch up to some of the great stuff thats been on here and I seeded till others were done. If someone jumps on one of those I gladly jump back on as long as its still on my harddrive. If you're so adamant about ratios then get on the owners to start enforcing a ratio. Torrents die not just because of leechers jumping off, lack of interest plays a big role too, especially if they've been aroudn the block for a while. Its even suggested by the owners to give back in other ways which I make every effort to do.

I dont understand how people are being robbed by my upload speed. I do the best I can on that angle, and if no one else is on the torrent and I jump off, who is getting robbed? The person who may or may not jump on someday? Is someone obligated to keep that torrent running constantly? Theres nothing in the rules that say anything of what you've said.

You take this wayyyyyyyyyyy too personal. Its one thing if someone rips you off in a snail mail trade, its another if theres 1 seeder and a leecher finishes a download and jumps off before the others finish which I have not and would not do.

And yet the point Ive been trying to make from the get go was ignored...

A Snail Mail trade does not equate to a ratio. You cannot tell if someone is going to rip you off in a snail mail trade by their ratio, its one thing if its your prerogative not to trade with that person but to assume that publically is a fallacy.

xequence
2006-06-13, 09:10 PM
I just have to jump in to this... I know more about bittorent then I do about snail mail trades, but heh. Just because TTD doesent enforce ratios doesent mean ratios dont matter. I am happy it doesent enforce ratios, as it just works better that way. Everyone has alot more download speed then upload speed, and most people who have a bad ratio will just be all "oh, I can download faster then I upload. You honestly expect me to take extra time to upload that I could take downloading?". Now, in my opinion, any ratio above 0.8 or so is fine. You have to give people some slack like that. But often (not all the time, definitally) if you get any lower then that you are just a leecher. I have to say it many times though, not all people with low ratios are. But many are.

If someone has the mindset "I dont have to other traders digitally with torrents", then chances are they might also have the mindset "I dont have to give back to other traders non digitally, with snail mail".

I used to have an ISP that capped me extremly (I still managed to keep a good ratio, I just didnt download as much) You know what I did? I switched. Now I can download alot more, and still keep a good ratio.

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 09:13 PM
Anyway Im done hijacking this thread, to the original topic I dont think woody should be castrated until Ragu explains his side and whats going on. Good traders do go bad at times regardless of Ragu's past trades. I'm more inclined to give anyone posting a bad trader report the benefit of the doubt until both sides are heard. Its nothing personal to either side. If Ragu is in the right, then woody is a bad trader and even worse for starting this thread.

and to the rest of the topic...

If someone doesnt want to trade with me beacuse of my ratio, give a shit. Theres plenty who will and my feedback backs me up on my trading abilites. As for my technological hindrance I live in a small town that has one ISP that has broadband, Im doing the best I can until otherwise.

Chachi420
2006-06-13, 09:19 PM
also, the other option if you have very poor ul speeds, or a large amount of shows you wish to obtain, is to mail trade more often and download less often. Mail trades go much faster than torrents. I trade for everything on my list. I don't download at all. I only upload what I have obtained via mail trades. It is much easier to get lots of shows by mail trades than by torrents. It is much easier though to share lots of music by torrents than by mail trades, hence why I upload a lot of my collection here. I agree with xequence that it is good to have 0.8 ratio or above. It is really bad though to have less than 0.5 imo. It is not practical for everyone to have 1.0 ratio or higher, but we should all strive for that to share the groove on to newbies.
peace, and share the groove!
Chachi

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 09:23 PM
still doesnt change the fact

that a bad ratio does not equal inability to snail mail trade

Chachi420
2006-06-13, 09:28 PM
still doesnt change the fact

that a bad ratio does not equal inability to snail mail trade
exactly...I agree with that. A snail mail trade is a separate transaction from electronic trades.
a snail mail trade is and should be a 1 for 1 trade.
How is an electronic trade any different? It should also be 1 for 1 i.e. a 1.0 ratio... a bad ratio equals a bad ratio
I think you are starting to understand ;) :)

skodechoker
2006-06-13, 09:31 PM
You keep contradicting yourself though :lol:

You agree with that, but then you disagree with it. By stating that a electronic trade is no different, than you are insinuating that anyone with a bad ratio is not a good snail mail trader.

My whole point to arguing was Calvins insistence that because woody has a bad ratio that he is automatically assumed to be a bad snail mail trader.

They are seperate instances, and there are hindrances sometimes which holds someone back from sharing to the 1:1, older torrents with a lack of leechers, slow upload, a wide variety of things.

No one should be branded a bad snail mail trader because of their ratio, electronic is one thing, mail and actual discs is another. I have a shit ratio, but thats not going to stop me from fulfilling a snail mail trade or trying my hardest with my limitations to better my ratio (which was even worse a week ago :lol ).

Festafarian
2006-06-13, 09:49 PM
first I'd like to say that i had a great trading experience with Ragu.... i find it hard to believe that he would lie. Where are you buddy? what's your side of the story?

About the ratio thing, I too live in a small town with only one isp to choose from. I have a difficult time keeping my ratio just above 1.0, but i manage. Sometimes i just have to stop d/l for a while and seed. It's the only fair thing to do.

rknhrse112@YAHOO.COM
2006-06-14, 01:59 AM
hi everbody
i just would like to trade period . my ratio is zero !! but i got great stuff just would like to trade instead of one or two email and then fade away !!!! just cause i don't have a website doesn't mean i don't have great stuff and can provide pleanty of titles upon request !!!!! so why not ask !!!
rnkhrse112@<hidden> aol.com

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 07:24 AM
You keep contradicting yourself though :lol:

You agree with that, but then you disagree with it. By stating that a electronic trade is no different, than you are insinuating that anyone with a bad ratio is not a good snail mail trader.

My whole point to arguing was Calvins insistence that because woody has a bad ratio that he is automatically assumed to be a bad snail mail trader.

They are seperate instances, and there are hindrances sometimes which holds someone back from sharing to the 1:1, older torrents with a lack of leechers, slow upload, a wide variety of things.

No one should be branded a bad snail mail trader because of their ratio, electronic is one thing, mail and actual discs is another. I have a shit ratio, but thats not going to stop me from fulfilling a snail mail trade or trying my hardest with my limitations to better my ratio (which was even worse a week ago :lol ).

ok, one last explanation since you are obviously slow on the issue.
Snail mail trades are separate from electronic trades. Agreed. We both agree that it is important to trade 1 to 1 on snail mail trades. Electronic trades are still "trades" therefore they need to also try for 1:1 ratio. There is no difference in that a "trade" requires the two parties to be on equal terms.

By your reasoning, for being electronicly defecient as you say your bandwidth is, than one would not have to honor snail mail trades because the post office is too far away....or likewise because they can't afford stamps/discs etc. So it would then be ok in your mind to not honor your part of the trade with someone for these types of defencies as well? That makes no sense.

The fact of the matter is that EVERYBODY has faster dl speeds than ul speeds. That is why we have to monitor our ul/dl individually since there is no official rule on the matter. If everyone had poor ratios like your 0.3 then I guarantee you this site would not still be around. Period. FWIW, my internet is 500 kbps dl and 35 to 40 kbps ul. That doesn't mean that I should have a ul/dl ratio of 40/500, or 0.08.

It all comes down to giving back what you receive--whether for snail mail or electronicly, they are both "trades".

I think that should be clear now...at least to everybody but skodechoker! :lol

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 07:26 AM
first I'd like to say that i had a great trading experience with Ragu.... i find it hard to believe that he would lie. Where are you buddy? what's your side of the story?

About the ratio thing, I too live in a small town with only one isp to choose from. I have a difficult time keeping my ratio just above 1.0, but i manage. Sometimes i just have to stop d/l for a while and seed. It's the only fair thing to do.
because festafarian is a good person and a good trader! (who I've never traded with before, at least by snail mail, but by the >1.0 ratio, festafarian is by definition a good trader!) :thumbsup

calvin1663
2006-06-14, 07:47 AM
@<hidden> chachi...



HEAR HEAR

calvin1663
2006-06-14, 07:49 AM
You take this wayyyyyyyyyyy too personal. Its one thing if someone rips you off in a snail mail trade, its another if theres 1 seeder and a leecher finishes a download and jumps off before the others finish which I have not and would not do.


A Snail Mail trade does not equate to a ratio. You cannot tell if someone is going to rip you off in a snail mail trade by their ratio, its one thing if its your prerogative not to trade with that person but to assume that publically is a fallacy.


1. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. He's taking it personally?!?!? Who's been defending woody with a post a minute, when he's not spoken once in a reply himself?!?

2. Wrong.

skodechoker
2006-06-14, 11:38 AM
1. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. He's taking it personally?!?!? Who's been defending woody with a post a minute, when he's not spoken once in a reply himself?!?

2. Wrong.


1. I'm not "defending" woody, for lack of a better word. I do believe that every side is entitled to the benefit of the doubt in regards to issues like this until both sides are fully heard. Woody has done nothing for me to believe he's lying. Ragu has neither but neither of them have said anything else as of yet.

2. How is it wrong? I have a poor ratio, but look at my track record for snailmail trades, while Im a "noob" here, Ive never had a bad trade snail mail wise here or anywhere. So Im perfect on snail mail, ratio wise its not spectacular through.no.fault.of.my.own. I also do B&Ps, vines and trade with virtually anyone as per the rules of this site suggest if you cant via the torrents.

Get your head out of your ass calvin.

U2Lynne
2006-06-14, 11:56 AM
Just wanted to add my two cents here as a user, not an Admin or a Mod. I've talked to many users who have "bad" ratios and many or them (not all by any means) do realize that they cannot keep their ratios up (for various reasons) and they do many other very useful things like Vine the shows or B&P them or just trade them. There are some of us, like me, who don't have the time for trades or b&ps or starting vines and so we just leave our bt windows open for as long as possible. It is actually impossible for everyone on this site to have a ratio of 1:1 when there are a bunch of people that have a ratio over 1:1.

Trader Dave
2006-06-14, 12:04 PM
I think i would lose my hard on for Chachi if he ever stopped acting like a little bitch. Here's to that hot little Bitch. :thumbsup :thumbsup

jdawson
2006-06-14, 12:32 PM
lynne i am in almost the same situation, my husband doens't want our address going out. I trade with limited people.


on a side note... anyone remember cathy liebchen on STG? I don't think they had ratios on STG (until the bitter end) but I remember her seeding about half the stuff on the vines. I never knew her share ratio, personally it wouldn't make a difference. I think you show the kind of person you are by your actions on here. Its more than just your share ratio, more than just what you seed, vine or b&p. It's the whole package. Personally, i don't know ragu but I liked the fact that he asked for opinions without naming names, trying to find out the right thing to do. This woody person came out name calling and admitting that he was the person who sent the stuff to him, all with a bad attitude. The actions by the people involved would definitely have a bearing on who I dealt with in a trade, not just a share ratio.

Cyndiotta
2006-06-14, 12:48 PM
lynne i am in almost the same situation, my husband doens't want our address going out. I trade with limited people.


on a side note... anyone remember cathy liebchen on STG? I don't think they had ratios on STG (until the bitter end) but I remember her seeding about half the stuff on the vines. I never knew her share ratio, personally it wouldn't make a difference. I think you show the kind of person you are by your actions on here. Its more than just your share ratio, more than just what you seed, vine or b&p. It's the whole package. Personally, i don't know ragu but I liked the fact that he asked for opinions without naming names, trying to find out the right thing to do. This woody person came out name calling and admitting that he was the person who sent the stuff to him, all with a bad attitude. The actions by the people involved would definitely have a bearing on who I dealt with in a trade, not just a share ratio.



Cathy Liebchen ...I often wonder what became of her Judy...man she had the wealth of a phenomenal collection and shared it so freely !!

Festafarian
2006-06-14, 12:51 PM
Just wanted to add my two cents here as a user, not an Admin or a Mod. I've talked to many users who have "bad" ratios and many or them (not all by any means) do realize that they cannot keep their ratios up (for various reasons) and they do many other very useful things like Vine the shows or B&P them or just trade them. There are some of us, like me, who don't have the time for trades or b&ps or starting vines and so we just leave our bt windows open for as long as possible. It is actually impossible for everyone on this site to have a ratio of 1:1 when there are a bunch of people that have a ratio over 1:1.

Absolutely! I have issues seeding torrents, but I give back by doing B&ps and seeding vines. There are a number of ways to do your share. I can understand not being able to share 1:1, but, no matter how bad your u/l speed is, there really is no excuse for not getting at least halfway. It's very simple really, JUST STOP D/Ling! Even if you are only u/l at 3.kb it will add up. eventually.

And thanks for the kudos Chachi!

hanshak2015
2006-06-14, 12:56 PM
Electronic trades are still "trades" therefore they need to also try for 1:1 ratio. There is no difference in that a "trade" requires the two parties to be on equal terms.



I disagree. A trade is a trade with two parties exchanging stuff, usually on a 1:1 basis, but 2:1 trades are trades too.

Torrenting however is not trading shows, it is sharing them. When you seed a show, you do so because you want to share the fun with others, with no direct expectations involved. You don't seed a torrent expecting every single user that downloads your show to seed exactly / at least one other show. Of course you hope so, but it's not an obligation as with a trade.

The live music trading trackers only work if the majority of people are into the sharing philosophy, i.e. giving without expecting anything (directly) in return. You just gotta have faith that in the end you'll end up with the shows you're interested in because you know that other people also share what they have without any expectations.

So IMHO torrents are not only different from snail mail trades in a technical sense, but also in the way sharing via BT depends much more on having faith in others and a sense of responsibility.

jdawson
2006-06-14, 01:12 PM
Cathy Liebchen ...I often wonder what became of her Judy...man she had the wealth of a phenomenal collection and shared it so freely !!


pretty sure she still has her list up on etree. Probably the best way to contact her. Think she was in Georgia. I can't remember how many of her vines I was on, but I know if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have a lot of the shows I dearly treasure. Truly a wonderful, selfless person :thumbsup (even after getting highspeed, I still hopped on her vines because she had so much to share that wasn't available via torrent.)

karmakat
2006-06-14, 01:43 PM
I think i would lose my hard on for Chachi if he ever stopped acting like a little bitch. Here's to that hot little Bitch. :thumbsup :thumbsup


You are soooooooooooo bad. I think you need to be :whip: :lol

Silver Stallion DVDs
2006-06-14, 01:47 PM
"If you're ratio is less than 1.0, then you are stealing from the TTD community" ~Chachi420
Chachi (DL 4.28 GB - UL 564.49 GB - ration 131.97),

Conversely, if you're share ratio is over 1:1 you are making it impossible for someone out there to have a ratio above 1:1. And since you've uploaded 560 gigs more than you've downloaded - that's 560 gigs that someone else couldn't upload - because you hogged the upload pipe.

You are literally responsible for several dozen sub 1:1 SRs here at TTD.

For obvious reasons, I am guilty of the same thing. But I NEVER bitch about share ratios. I've got a fat pipe (max upload is 11 megs/sec) and I gladly use it t give out terabytes of music. I download as much as I reasonably expect I can listen/watch, but obviously, I can't even begin to download enough to match my upload capability.

I say just feel fortunate that you've got a fat pipe that allows you to share the jams and don't worry about others.

Side Note to Lynne: Is there anyway I can donate 50 or 100 GB chunks of my share ratio to people in need? I damn sure don't need but a tiny fraction of what I've accumulated.

Randy

schmoe75
2006-06-14, 02:15 PM
Conversely, if you're share ratio is over 1:1 you are making it impossible for someone out there to have a ratio above 1:1. And since you've uploaded 560 gigs more than you've downloaded - that's 560 gigs that someone else couldn't upload - because you hogged the upload pipe.

You are literally responsible for several dozen sub 1:1 SRs here at TTD.

gotta disagree w/ that one Randy...im in that same boat as chachi. Notice i dont download anything. I acquire everything thru the mail and download a show once in awhile over at Dime, but all of my Uploaded gigs have come from me seeding shows here. In order for everyone else to get it, someone's gotta upload it first, correct? Granted, i have stayed on a few torrents when i left for the weekend, but...

IMO, the two have nothing to do with each other as far as a gaurantee of the type of person you're dealing with. I've traded with a couple peeps on here with bad ratio's and the trade went off without a hitch...
One's ratio or internet sharing ability has nothing to do with who or how they are as a snail mail trader. (though it seems the peeps that have bad ratings or are accused of ripping someone off in a snailmail, have poor ratios).


The only thing i've noticed and bothers me about the 'raito'...the people who dont grasp the concept "you cant download everything" (it appears from mild observation, the people that are capped at 10-15 kbs are the ones who hop on every single torrent that gets seeded) Alot of us are already paying taxes for the USPS, utilize them, they're cheap. In the time it takes me to download 1 dvd, i can burn 10...economics and time maximization bitches

dorrcoq
2006-06-14, 04:06 PM
If everyone had poor ratios like your 0.3 then I guarantee you this site would not still be around.


Just like it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 1.0 or higher (as you stated in another post), it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 0.3 or any other number below 1.0

dorrcoq
2006-06-14, 04:11 PM
Cathy Liebchen ...I often wonder what became of her Judy...man she had the wealth of a phenomenal collection and shared it so freely !!


You know, I appreciated her efforts but.....at least half of the Led Zep vines I was on were fucked up when I received them. Files/tracks missing, two disc ones, instead of a disc one and a disc two, etc. Maybe I was just unlucky.

jdawson
2006-06-14, 04:21 PM
dennis i remember reading on a site where someone had seeded stuff and someone down the line had kept the original disc and sent on something different, keeping the taiyo or fuji's and sending on cheap media. might be the case, might not. I only had one issue with a disc she sent and that was the private party mule show. with that, it wasn't problems with the files it was the md5 being messed up, it was odd but fixable.

dorrcoq
2006-06-14, 04:22 PM
dennis i remember reading on a site where someone had seeded stuff and someone down the line had kept the original disc and sent on something different, keeping the taiyo or fuji's and sending on cheap media. might be the case, might not. I only had one issue with a disc she sent and that was the private party mule show. with that, it wasn't problems with the files it was the md5 being messed up, it was odd but fixable.

Like I said, maybe I was just unlucky. :lol

xequence
2006-06-14, 05:00 PM
Just like it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 1.0 or higher (as you stated in another post), it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 0.3 or any other number below 1.0

If everyone tried for a ratio of 1 or higher, it would be hard for that to happen. But I think we all aggree that there is no shortage of people downloading things that need someone to upload to them. That comes from the fact there are alot of leechers out there. I know not all will stop leeching, but there is plenty of uploading to do that any of those leechers could do.

And no, the guy who uploaded 500GB is not hurting the community by taking away uploading from others.

dorrcoq
2006-06-14, 05:18 PM
And no, the guy who uploaded 500GB is not hurting the community by taking away uploading from others.

Hurting it, no. But he is taking the onus away from others to continue sharing, in the same way that someone who had downloaded 500 GB more than he had uploaded is placing an onus on others to make up the difference.

You can argue it however you like but the simple math of it is that for each bit downloaded there is one bit uploaded, no more, no less. If a high percentage of the total upload on a torrent all comes from one person, then yes he does limit the amount the other people on the torrent can upload.

Example - one torrent, 1 GB in size, 12 leechers. If the person who torrents it has a fast upload connection and decides to stay on until he uploads 10 GBs, that leaves only 2 total GBs of upload left to be shared among the 12 leechers. What kind of ratio do you think they will end up with?

xequence
2006-06-14, 05:36 PM
that leaves only 2 total GBs of upload left to be shared among the 12 leechers.

Yes, if only twelve people are going to download it. I havnt made a torrent that had only 12 downloads though. On the site I upload torrents to, my least downloaded torrent was 121 downloads and my most is 12,545. The others are in between, mostly in the couple thousands though.

If each person downloading that torrent only uploads 0.3 of it, it will be dead fast, even with the 10GB from the original uploader. Especially on trading sites like this where it is often only 10 or less seeders and leechers, you not uploading some parts of a torrent means someone else misses out on it. And that is a chain reaction - the potential downloader cant seed to someone else who wants it also, and same for that person.

dorrcoq
2006-06-14, 05:53 PM
Yes, if only twelve people are going to download it. I havnt made a torrent that had only 12 downloads though. On the site I upload torrents to, my least downloaded torrent was 121 downloads and my most is 12,545. The others are in between, mostly in the couple thousands though.

If each person downloading that torrent only uploads 0.3 of it, it will be dead fast, even with the 10GB from the original uploader. Especially on trading sites like this where it is often only 10 or less seeders and leechers, you not uploading some parts of a torrent means someone else misses out on it. And that is a chain reaction - the potential downloader cant seed to someone else who wants it also, and same for that person.

Sure, my example was a bit extreme. But on THIS site - which is the one we are talking about - there is no way to get 12,000 people on one torrent (and I would like to know what the fuck that was! :D ). In fact, 12 people is closer to fact than 120 on a number of torrents I've downloaded here. My point being that one person uploading a large amount on a specific torrent CAN/DOES have an affect on the amount others can upload on that torrent. There isn't an infinite amount available.

schmoe75
2006-06-14, 05:59 PM
If each person downloading that torrent only uploads 0.3 of it, it will be dead fast
There isn't an infinite amount available.
:thumbsup

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 06:48 PM
Just like it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 1.0 or higher (as you stated in another post), it is not possible for everyone to have a ratio of 0.3 or any other number below 1.0
I agree on both points. It is not possible for everyone to have a ratio greater than 1.0, that's why it's almost impossible to determine what is an appropriate number for a ratio enforcement.

The main thing that aggrevates me is when people totally abuse the system by never stopping the downloads to let it just sit and upload for a little while. Also, it annoys me when somone dl at 500kbps and then drops off a torrent after they dl it, leaving the original seeder to continue seeding alone. If that first person who completed stays on to help seed, then things go much faster. That type of leecher causes the seeder a lot of extra time to get the torrent fully seeded.

I understand that torrents die because of lack of interest etc, but it is a shame when torrents die due to leechers dropping off like flies. I'm glad Lynne added in the list of people who completed the torrent so we will know who are the ones to run.

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 07:15 PM
Ok, I just did a quick calculation for those of you who feel that a chronic seeder ruins everyone elses ratios...

For example, the p&f torrent I'm currently seeding right now is 7.71 GB and there are 36 leechers. I typically ul only enough to get the torrent seeded so I can then move on to upload another show. So I will assume in this example that I only upload 7.71 GB (which isn't really a bad assumption considering just about every torrent I seed I only seed just enough to get it fully seeded).

Ok,
7.71GB x 36 leechers = 277.56GB need to be uploaded in total
277.56GB total - 7.71 GB seeded by the original seeder = 269.85 GB need to be ul by the leechers
Assuming each leacher will ul equally,
269.85GB / 36 leechers = 7.50 GB per leecher
Since eacher leecher originally dl 7.71 GB and ul 7.50 GB, the ratio is 0.973 ratio.

Following the same calculation for 100 leechers the ratios will come out to 0.99, and the ratio approaches 1.0 with even more leechers.

So, TAKE THAT you nasty leechers with ratios less than 0.90 (which is now the number I think is minimum for satisfactory leeching, though with something like 16,000 users, there is absolutely no excuse for people to have 0.99 ratios!)

The Wicker Man
2006-06-14, 08:09 PM
Since it is not enforced, this is officially the silliest thread ever...

xequence
2006-06-14, 10:01 PM
Since it is not enforced, this is officially the silliest thread ever...

So the fact that TTD doesent enforce ratios means that a poor ratio doesent equal a bad trader?

I dont get your reasoning behind that o_O

U2Lynne
2006-06-14, 10:35 PM
Also, it annoys me when somone dl at 500kbps and then drops off a torrent after they dl it, leaving the original seeder to continue seeding alone. If that first person who completed stays on to help seed, then things go much faster. That type of leecher causes the seeder a lot of extra time to get the torrent fully seeded.
Agree with you on this. I hopped onto a show yesterday where the three people were stuck around 85%. I seeded it overnight, and then this morning I saw only two left and the third had hopped right off (he was in the snatched list, but no longer seeding). I left a note in the thread saying I didn't think it was cool that he hopped off right away after I had helped him out. *Those* are the leechers I don't like.

But Chachi, I don't know that 90% is even a realistic number. I have a share ratio of 3.82 mostly from simply uploading shows that I didn't originally seed. I am always looking to see if there are straglers and then helping them out. I do that everynight. So, I am 'taking away upload possibilities' from other people. (But, they are only possibilities if the others even take a look to see if they could have seeded.)

We could be strict here about ratios like on other sites, but then we would be only a bittorrent site. If we were only bittorrent, then there would be no need for the Trading forums or Technical Help or The Lounge type forums. Is that what we want to be?

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 10:41 PM
... Is that what we want to be?
I don't think that we should enforce the ratios unless they are less than 0.3 or something extremely low like that to supress the total leeches. However, I think if people's ratios are less than 0.9 (according to my above example that is entirely possible) then we should be able to frown upon them :)

ragu421
2006-06-14, 10:57 PM
Whooooa now,this thing has turned ugly and I dont know why??The one bad trade that Ive had in 5+ years of trading gets blown up into this.I said my two cents in the other thread and many of the people I have traded with {and count as friends}have stood up for me.I believe very much that a reputation is something that a trader should take serious.I would also say that those who have spoken on my behalf have impeccable reputations.My buddy twisteninthenw is pretty much the one who educated and walked me thru the dvd trading process and Im deeply indebted to him.Thanks for your patience and help bro!!There are even more and these folks Ive traded with on MULTIPLE times.Yeah,you may get a shitty disc from me but if you do Ill make it right.Ill do whatever I can anyway.Isnt that what were supposed to do?As far as uploads and downloads go...I cant download because Im dial up and cant comment.I can say that alot of folks that do download kick stuff down thru B&P's to people like me and that dosent show on their ratios.{To you guys CHHERS!!}but I will say that in all of these years to have had only this one bad trade.....hey,shit...I think I'll smoke me a bowl {being a pothead and all} and be grateful of all the GOOD and POSITIVE people that Ive met here on TDD.And you know exactly who you are!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

Chachi420
2006-06-14, 11:13 PM
Whooooa now,this thing has turned ugly and I dont know why??The one bad trade that Ive had in 5+ years of trading gets blown up into this.I said my two cents in the other thread and many of the people I have traded with {and count as friends}have stood up for me.I believe very much that a reputation is something that a trader should take serious.I would also say that those who have spoken on my behalf have impeccable reputations.My buddy twisteninthenw is pretty much the one who educated and walked me thru the dvd trading process and Im deeply indebted to him.Thanks for your patience and help bro!!There are even more and these folks Ive traded with on MULTIPLE times.Yeah,you may get a shitty disc from me but if you do Ill make it right.Ill do whatever I can anyway.Isnt that what were supposed to do?As far as uploads and downloads go...I cant download because Im dial up and cant comment.I can say that alot of folks that do download kick stuff down thru B&P's to people like me and that dosent show on their ratios.{To you guys CHHERS!!}but I will say that in all of these years to have had only this one bad trade.....hey,shit...I think I'll smoke me a bowl {being a pothead and all} and be grateful of all the GOOD and POSITIVE people that Ive met here on TDD.And you know exactly who you are!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
if twistedinthenw is your buddy, then you are my buddy too :wave:

ragu421
2006-06-14, 11:14 PM
Should'nt someone be packing a bowl right about now??
db.etree.org/ragu420
Gotta go outta town for a few days.Y'all play nice!

U2Lynne
2006-06-14, 11:16 PM
Whooooa now,this thing has turned ugly and I dont know why??
No, the other thread got kinda sidetracker, or hijacked. So, I moved the discussion out of there to be separate. I think it's an interesting topic and as long as it stays civil, I think it can show why people have differing points of view about share ratios.

ragu421
2006-06-14, 11:17 PM
Thanks Chachi!! Check my list and if you would like a trade,I think twistided can vouch for me,give me a shout.Im always up for a trade and gotta get back to my bud aikox about round 2 of our 10 rounder.

schmoe75
2006-06-14, 11:26 PM
Aikox's good people :thumbsup

skodechoker
2006-06-14, 11:38 PM
I disagree. A trade is a trade with two parties exchanging stuff, usually on a 1:1 basis, but 2:1 trades are trades too.

Torrenting however is not trading shows, it is sharing them. When you seed a show, you do so because you want to share the fun with others, with no direct expectations involved. You don't seed a torrent expecting every single user that downloads your show to seed exactly / at least one other show. Of course you hope so, but it's not an obligation as with a trade.

The live music trading trackers only work if the majority of people are into the sharing philosophy, i.e. giving without expecting anything (directly) in return. You just gotta have faith that in the end you'll end up with the shows you're interested in because you know that other people also share what they have without any expectations.

So IMHO torrents are not only different from snail mail trades in a technical sense, but also in the way sharing via BT depends much more on having faith in others and a sense of responsibility.

Well said.

The Wicker Man
2006-06-15, 12:48 AM
So the fact that TTD doesent enforce ratios means that a poor ratio doesent equal a bad trader?

I dont get your reasoning behind that o_O

ohhh yeah..bring it too the lounge...

and you will hear all kinds of crazy shit....

...and only The Trader Police determine who is a bad trader...

The Wicker Man
2006-06-15, 12:50 AM
Ragu :down:

Prego :thumbsup

schmoe75
2006-06-15, 09:24 AM
:roflol: ain't that the truth... :clap:

Festafarian
2006-06-15, 01:59 PM
IMHO, I don't think a bad ratio necessarily makes for a bad trader. People can sometimes be fair on one issue, and unfair in another. And I am glad that ratios are not enforced because I may let my ratio drop on occassion, only to make up for it later. But it seems to me that whether or not your sharing in other ways, there is no excuse for not getting it at least halfway.

dorrcoq
2006-06-15, 05:41 PM
So the fact that TTD doesent enforce ratios means that a poor ratio doesent equal a bad trader?

I dont get your reasoning behind that o_O

Just like there is no rationale, other than your personal (flawed) opinion, for saying a low ratio automatically equals a bad trader.

xequence
2006-06-15, 06:26 PM
Just like there is no rationale, other than your personal (flawed) opinion, for saying a low ratio automatically equals a bad trader.

Sigh...

I didnt say a bad ratio automatically equals a bad trader. I am saying that if a person thinks it is fine to be a bad digital trader (torrent user on a trading site), they would quite possibly (and probably) think it is fine to be a bad trader in physical things (CDs and DVDs and etc).

Your personal (flawed) take and not give opinion is annoying :/

ragu421
2006-06-15, 07:06 PM
Prego :hmm: Why not just eat shit? :lol

skodechoker
2006-06-15, 10:37 PM
a bad digital trader
/

A bad digital trader would be someone who agrees to send a show to one person in exchange for another show digitally and then one side doesnt finish the send. I.E FTP Trades or private torrent trades.

When you seed a show to a torrent site like this one, you're not trading anything, what are you getting in return if you seed a show? The satisfaction of a shitload of people getting the show? The word trade does not apply. Bad sharer, yea, but its not a trade. You may get someone to seed a show you want, but thats still something on an individual basis.

The logic is completely flawed. I can't understand anyone assuming someone is a bad snail mail trader simply based on the amount of bits and bytes uploaded.

The word trade does not apply to torrents unless its individuals saying Ill seed this if you seed that. If you put it on a site like this one, theres going to be leechers, especially if said site doesnt enforce a ratio and a lot of times the leechers cant seed a significant amount for a variety of reasons.

Chachi420
2006-06-15, 11:36 PM
A bad digital trader would be someone who agrees to send a show to one person in exchange for another show digitally and then one side doesnt finish the send. I.E FTP Trades or private torrent trades.

When you seed a show to a torrent site like this one, you're not trading anything, what are you getting in return if you seed a show? The satisfaction of a shitload of people getting the show? The word trade does not apply. Bad sharer, yea, but its not a trade. You may get someone to seed a show you want, but thats still something on an individual basis.

The logic is completely flawed. I can't understand anyone assuming someone is a bad snail mail trader simply based on the amount of bits and bytes uploaded.

The word trade does not apply to torrents unless its individuals saying Ill seed this if you seed that. If you put it on a site like this one, theres going to be leechers, especially if said site doesnt enforce a ratio and a lot of times the leechers cant seed a significant amount for a variety of reasons.


you couldn't be more wrong...please see the above example calculation I presented in which every person downloading must contribute by uploading their fair share, otherwise the torrent will not work...
How do you not understand that if you do not upload your part, then you are taking more than your fair share. It's very simple...in order for you to download something, someone has to upload it to you. If you do not upload back to the rest of your peers, then they will be upset because you are stealing bandwidth.

Here's another example for you. I start a seed on a show. I upload it to one person. If that person does not upload it 1:1, then noone else gets the show. Now if 100 people want to hop on the torrent, as in the above example, everyone must have a 0.99 share ratio, or the torrent will not be completed. How can you not understand that??? With your crappy ratio of 0.3, you will cause the nice seeder who is trying to put out shows for everyone to download to upload much more than their fair share in order to keep the torrent alive just because you are stealing all of the bandwidth without contributing anything. This is not fair to the seeders who are trying to help you out by providing you with music.

skodechoker, you are a disgrace to the online trading community :disbelief

U2Lynne
2006-06-15, 11:46 PM
But Chachi, we are comparing bittorrenters to snail mail traders. Do you really think that if a user has a bad bt ratio here that they will make a bad snail mail trader?

Chachi420
2006-06-15, 11:54 PM
But Chachi, we are comparing bittorrenters to snail mail traders. Do you really think that if a user has a bad bt ratio here that they will make a bad snail mail trader?
no...not necessarily, but the more I think about it, the more I think how bad it is that people's ratios are low...

Also, the only reason people are good snail mail traders is so that they can continue to trade amongst their peers. If someone is totally altruistic, then they will offer up freebies, or at the very least b&p's. Trading is not someone being nice to someone else for the sake of niceness (although it can be if that person really doesn't want to trade but just agrees to it just to be nice). Trading is what someone does because they want something from someone else and to get that something else, they trade something of equal value.

Now, as for online trading, if people do not contribute back by uploading their fair share, they cause all of their peers and seeders to take up the slack for them. This is not fair to anyone...

All I ask is that people return the favors of others by sharing what they download... SHARE THE GROOVE!

schmoe75
2006-06-16, 12:02 AM
SHARE THE GROOVE!
:thumbsup

U2Lynne
2006-06-16, 12:12 AM
Yep, I agree, Share The Groove!

But....

What if you can't (for some reason, who cares why, we are talking about people who WANT to STG) have a good ratio? So, you do Vines and B&Ps? Isn't that sharing also? But, you get no upload credit for it. So, you have a crappy ratio but you seed tons of vines or do tons of b&ps.... isn't that sharing? But it doesn't show in some ratio.

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 12:20 AM
n
Also, the only reason people are good snail mail traders is so that they can continue to trade amongst their peers. If someone is totally altruistic, then they will offer up freebies, or at the very least b&p's.

Who says I dont do that?

Trading is what someone does because they want something from someone else and to get that something else, they trade something of equal value.

Which has NOTHING to do with torrents! A bad ratio does not indicate that someone will not come through on a trade.


Now, as for online trading, if people do not contribute back by uploading their fair share, they cause all of their peers and seeders to take up the slack for them. This is not fair to anyone...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trade
trade (trd)
n.
5. An exchange of one thing for another.

I deleted the definitions that did not apply.

"Online trading" as you so eloquently put it is not applicable in regards to torrents. When you seed a show you are not trading but SHARING you get NOTHING in return for seeding a show unless you have a deal in place with someone else.


All I ask is that people return the favors of others by sharing what they download... SHARE THE GROOVE!

Until the people that run this place put a ratio system in the rules, no one is obligated to do that. Secondly, everything Ive downloaded off here for the most part is dead, I jumped on things very late and left when there were 0 leechers. I do not feel that I should be forced to seed something when no one else wants it, and I want to make room off my hard drive.

I've agreed with you 50,000 fucking times I have an awful ratio but NO ONE has stated a case how a bad ratio would equal a bad snail mail trade which was the essence of this argument from the get go. You can assume that, but in no instance has it been proven or justified.

skodechoker, you are a disgrace to the online trading community

How so? I have NEVER gone bad on a TRADE. As for sharing and torrents, if something is in need of a seed and I still have it on my hard drive I gladly turn it on. Your argument has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Chachi420
2006-06-16, 12:20 AM
Yep, I agree, Share The Groove!

But....

What if you can't (for some reason, who cares why, we are talking about people who WANT to STG) have a good ratio? So, you do Vines and B&Ps? Isn't that sharing also? But, you get no upload credit for it. So, you have a crappy ratio but you seed tons of vines or do tons of b&ps.... isn't that sharing? But it doesn't show in some ratio.I think if people have crappy ratios and they are doing lots of b&ps/freebies/vines, then they need to stick to USPS instead of downloading... :)
The fact of the matter is that EVERYBODY has ul caps. There are only a very small number of people who can ul an unlimited amount of TB's, but for the rest of us, we're ALL limited to a certain amount of ul by our isp's.
That is why everyone with good ratios know how to turn off the dl and just let it ul for awhile to share the groove back.

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 12:23 AM
I think if people have crappy ratios and they are doing lots of b&ps/freebies/vines, then they need to stick to USPS instead of downloading... :)

Well you see a lot of people request b&ps off of shows that have been seeded here, how can those be b&P'ed, freebied, or vined without downloading them?

That is why everyone with good ratios know how to turn off the dl and just let it ul for awhile to share the groove back.

What about trading the groove?

Chachi420
2006-06-16, 12:30 AM
How so? I have NEVER gone bad on a TRADE. As for sharing and torrents, if something is in need of a seed and I still have it on my hard drive I gladly turn it on. Your argument has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
ok, I should have said "disgrace to the online bittorrent community"
also, I think a person with a poor ratio can be a good mail trader...they could also be a bad mail trader...I don't have any statistics on it though to fit any correlation...
I just think if someone doesn't have the decency to stop dl for a bit to ul something back, then they just need to stick to the USPS because they obviously don't know the etiquette of bittorrent...
Ok, I think I've clarified myself now...where I said 'trade' in most of the earlier posts, I was implying 'bittorrent'. Also fwiw, bittorrent is a type of trading. The seeder, person 0, shares to person 1, who ul to person 2, who ul to person 3 etc etc etc.... As in my earlier example, a torrent with 100 people will require that each person have a 0.99 ratio to complete the torrent for everyone to contribute equally.

Chachi420
2006-06-16, 12:36 AM
Well you see a lot of people request b&ps off of shows that have been seeded here, how can those be b&P'ed, freebied, or vined without downloading them?



What about trading the groove?
Trading the groove is fun...In fact, since I don't download, I just 'share' the groove...I prefer to trade the groove via snail mail since it's much more effective to obtain music. Torrents are good for a large audience of people to download, but everyone needs to ul their fair share in order for it to work.
You can post a comment in the thread that says "hey, anybody up for a trade" and then post a link to your list...that's what I do and I trade all of the time that way
It's just really annoying for seeders when they try to be nice and share stuff, but people abuse it and just download and drop off to download the next show and the next show and the next show...There is just too much stuff available for downlod to get it all...you must snail mail for most of it. When people drop off, then the seeder has to stay on longer to keep it alive, when that same seeder could be starting a new torrent.

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 12:39 AM
bittorrent is a type of trading. The seeder, person 0, shares to person 1, who ul to person 2, who ul to person 3 etc etc etc.... As in my earlier example.

No its not a type of trading. Its still sharing. What does the original seeder get in exchange? A trade is something for something. The word trade is not applicable to this site unless two individuals have an agreement that Party A will seed this, if Party B seeds that. A torrent is not a trade, its sharing. Completely different things.

The rules of this site state:

While we don't enforce any sort of Share Ratio Requirement on this site, we do ask that people try to seed a show to close to a 1:1 ratio. If this is not possible for you, then please do your part by sharing the shows by offering B&Ps or by starting a Vine for the show.

Operative words being try, or if its not possible than do your part by sharing by offering B&Ps and/or vines.

What I've done so far is offer B&Ps of what I download and gladly take requests from people who want something off my list that Ive gotten in straight trades (less than 20% of what I have on my list Ive downloaded) and with the vines Ive started have it's been things I would like to seed but can't so Im adding to the pool that way. If anything I would say Ive been ADDING to the site. My first posts were offers of freebies!

You're looking at one side of the coin completely in your argument. Not all bad ratios can be avoided for a variety of reasons, you dont know the particulars in any case of anyone who is below your "median" of 0.99 or whatever it is. You assume everything with your "scientific method". There are many cases of people with issues you havent taken into account. I hate to quote him but "Look at the big picture".

Also it works negatively with people with good ratios as well. Whos to say someone with a spectacular ratio doesnt do B&Ps, freebies or vines? They're in no way obligated to because of the seed, but someone else needs to step to the plate.

The seeder makes the decision to share the show, with nothing in return.

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 12:50 AM
lso fwiw, bittorrent is a type of trading. The seeder, person 0, shares to person 1, who ul to person 2, who ul to person 3 etc etc etc..

Even your party 2 ul to party 3 scenario its still not a trade.

I'll give you this gold medallion for that silver medallion - Thats a trade.

I'll give you this 5 dollar bill for that 5 dollar bill, how is that a trade? The seeder NEVER gets anything in return. Its still sharing all the way around. Even the 100th seeder doesnt get anything in return. Its still that same show being shared. In essence its just gift giving, but its not trading. The original seeder is under no obligation to seed anything and seeder 2 receives that gift but is not obligated to pass it on. Its all sharing, the word trade doesnt apply in any instance unless the individuals have a deal to seed this, and Ill seed that.

Torrents are not trades.

dorrcoq
2006-06-16, 01:36 AM
All guys with ratios of 133 are baby rapers. How do you like generalizations now? :lol

The original statement regarding ratios and trading habits was asinine and indefensible with anything other than baseless rhetoric. And yet you still argue it pages later....don't you have a trade to burn? :hmm:

I'm beginning to remember why I gave up on this site. :(

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 02:12 AM
no...not necessarily, but the more I think about it, the more I think how bad it is that people's ratios are low...


Then take it up with the site owners, it still does not apply whatsoever to the original question this topic posed which is the only thing Im arguing.

Am I a bad sharer because of my ratio? On glance from someone who doesnt know me or why, sure. If I could do more I would but there are instances where I can't.

Am I bad TRADER because of my ratio? Absolutely not. My feedback here and on other sites speaks for itself.

A seeder who seeds a show is sharing that show, the subsequent seeders are also sharing that show. Sharing is giving without the expectation of anything in return. Trading is giving something and receiving something in return. There is no trading invovled whatsoever.

heyyo
2006-06-16, 04:29 AM
leecher = asshat
bad trader = asshat
asshat = asshat
(end of disscussion ;))
no but seriously:
"If you're ratio is less than 1.0, then you are stealing from the TTD community" ~Chachi420 , and i would never trade anythign with a theif!

joemc
2006-06-16, 06:32 AM
hi, i have read all the thread......phew!

i agree that we should all get to/try to get to 1:1, sometimes you can't on individual torrents and it takes time to reach as for myself i only have certain interests, thats not an excuse and i know my ratio is only 0.61 before anyone has a go. I am not and never have been a thief of any description and i do try to give back what i get. one thing that has not been mentioned is that for my mind TTD is a community, a community is made up of many parts so if you have a low ratio but start vines isn't that helping the community? Although skode has a ratio of 0.34 i would suggest that if you added his vines to the stats he would be on more then 1:1, after all if you vine 1gig to 10 people it is in effect a ratio of 10:1, isn't it? just a thought, maybe if it was added then we would all start vines and stop people critising in a general way that serves no purpose apart from dissing other members.

Aye thank you

Joe

Chachi420
2006-06-16, 07:16 AM
No its not a type of trading. Its still sharing. What does the original seeder get in exchange? A trade is something for something. The word trade is not applicable to this site unless two individuals have an agreement that Party A will seed this, if Party B seeds that. A torrent is not a trade, its sharing. Completely different things.

The rules of this site state:



Operative words being try, or if its not possible than do your part by sharing by offering B&Ps and/or vines.

What I've done so far is offer B&Ps of what I download and gladly take requests from people who want something off my list that Ive gotten in straight trades (less than 20% of what I have on my list Ive downloaded) and with the vines Ive started have it's been things I would like to seed but can't so Im adding to the pool that way. If anything I would say Ive been ADDING to the site. My first posts were offers of freebies!

You're looking at one side of the coin completely in your argument. Not all bad ratios can be avoided for a variety of reasons, you dont know the particulars in any case of anyone who is below your "median" of 0.99 or whatever it is. You assume everything with your "scientific method". There are many cases of people with issues you havent taken into account. I hate to quote him but "Look at the big picture".

Also it works negatively with people with good ratios as well. Whos to say someone with a spectacular ratio doesnt do B&Ps, freebies or vines? They're in no way obligated to because of the seed, but someone else needs to step to the plate.

The seeder makes the decision to share the show, with nothing in return.

Ok, look at it this way...
The original seeder does in fact share as you have observed. Every other person in the torrent must "trade" in order for the torrent to complete. If the downloaders, as I like to call them, will then upload 0.99 ratio in order for the rest of the people in the torrent to obtain the show. If they are not ul back to the community, then they are truly leeches--sucking the life out of the torrent. While it is not obligatory to help out your peers on the torrent, it is necessary for you to do your part by ul. Skodechoker, everyone in this world has a capped ul. You are not the only one. Good bittorrent traders stop dl every once and a while, and just let it ul. I used to ul phish DVDs while on a dial-up modem connection briefly when I first got started on sites like STG and EZT. Then I saw the need for a broadband. With broadband, dl is very fast, but ul is still not very fast. So, you are not the only one with poor ul. You just choose to use that as an excuse for your bad bittorrent etiquette.
In closing, please don't download any torrents I start because I like to "share" my music with people who will "trade" it back to the community. With my capped ul, I don't have enough bandwidth to "feed" a "leech" that sucks all of the life out of the torrents.

Sidenote:
Also, I have done, and continue to do, many b&p's/freebies for people. I just got done doing a 20+disc b&p to someone in New Zealand. My b&ping has slowed down somewhat from 2 years ago when my motto was "I can always b&p for anyone anytime" posted on my etree site...now it says "I can b&p as time allows"...I've still never turned anyone down for a b&p that has asked. If I don't have time I just reply, "please contact me in one month to see if I'm available for a b&p then"...and I make good on my word.

Chachi420
2006-06-16, 07:30 AM
hi, i have read all the thread......phew!

i agree that we should all get to/try to get to 1:1, sometimes you can't on individual torrents and it takes time to reach as for myself i only have certain interests, thats not an excuse and i know my ratio is only 0.61 before anyone has a go. I am not and never have been a thief of any description and i do try to give back what i get. one thing that has not been mentioned is that for my mind TTD is a community, a community is made up of many parts so if you have a low ratio but start vines isn't that helping the community? Although skode has a ratio of 0.34 i would suggest that if you added his vines to the stats he would be on more then 1:1, after all if you vine 1gig to 10 people it is in effect a ratio of 10:1, isn't it? just a thought, maybe if it was added then we would all start vines and stop people critising in a general way that serves no purpose apart from dissing other members.

Aye thank you

Joe

Hi Joe, First of all,your ratio isn't terrible in that you're only several GB below par. However, skodechoker (and many others) are 60GB to 200+ GB below achieving a decent ratio. Quantity is also a factor, not just mere ratio number. If someone has a 0.3 ratio but has only downloaded a 9GB dvd, then they have only ul 2.7GB. Don't get me wrong...it is still not great, but not terrible. If this pattern continues on for countless DVDs until the person is down by 60GB and has downloaded 90GB, this type of person is clearly not interested in helping anyone out in the torrent. I don't buy the claim about capped ul speeds...everyone else has those too and deals with it by not downloading every show they see.

Now as for your figure of 10:1 ratio for the vine... The person vining it would actually have an imaginary ratio of infinity. Everybody else in the vine, except for the very last person, would then trade 1:1 to perpetuate the vine.

Finally, the purpose is not to "diss" other members. The purpose is in effort to make people realize that there is no law that says they must help out the community. After all, bittorrnet is a huge part of this site, so bittorrent in my mind should be considered separate in terms of trading stats (whether the stats are clearly shown or not, people should strive for 1:1 for any trade online or offline). Now there is no law in this country that says you must hold a door open for an old lady entering a building, but it is proper etiquette and most people do that sort of thing. Not a totally analagous example, I know, but you get the point. We are not always governed by laws, but we must govern ourselves to do the right thing, which in this case is to not steal bandwidth from your peers in the torrent...

joemc
2006-06-16, 08:24 AM
hi, thanks for replying chachi, how do you think we can overcome the issue? and put it to bed so that it is fair to everyone as i dont think ratio enforcement would work on this and some other boot sites (different for pop music mp3 and film sites). ie i dloaded a 2dvd set from another site, i caught it at the end and although i have my normal ul speed capped at 20 while dloading, this torrent was ul at 1-2, even after opening up to 60 when i had finished dloading. so for my ratio i stopped it and searched the orhan list and started seeding a couple of shows i still had. it took me quite a while to get my ratio back up to over 0.7. if the ratio level were enforced i could have been banned while trying to do something about it as the initial drop was beyond my control. would that have been fair although it would have been right as that what the rules would have stated. I think here at TTD the rules etc are spot on but maybe we could have a type of 'ratio' cop who could look at the members and pm them, if they get a reasonable explanation of low ratio then fair enough, if not and the person is a pure leech and does not contribute to other areas of the site then out you go. One site i am on has a minimum of 0.25 share which i thinks works to keep ratios low as sometimes we only do what we have to.

hope that isn't such a ramble.

joe

Black Dog
2006-06-16, 08:33 AM
I don't think that we should enforce the ratios unless they are less than 0.3 or something extremely low like that to supress the total leeches. However, I think if people's ratios are less than 0.9 (according to my above example that is entirely possible) then we should be able to frown upon them :)

The true meaning of "sharing" is to share selflessly.....:disbelief

Do you like to frown? :cool:

ragu421
2006-06-16, 11:41 AM
:wave: This has turned into an interesting discussion.While I can buy the theory that a person with a bad ratio COULD be a good snail trader,have any of you ever had a bad trading {snail} with someone who had a good ratio?I have jumped in BT forums of a show that I wanted but was unable to D/L because of ISP connection and asked the host if I could possibly get a B&P and would of course reoffer in the trade or B&P forum and I have never been turned down.I have also asked some of those that have been termed "leechers" for the same favor and never recieved a reply.I understand that ratios are not enforced here but I look at it sort of like an "all you can eat buffett".If you cant eat it all {or in this case share in some sort of equal proportion} then dont take it and put it on your plate.I say all of this by prequalifying my self in that I have never D/L a show in my life and wouldnt know where to begin to know how.Ill bet my buddy "twistedinthenw" would offer all the assistance Id need.I would suggest {and most of you probably do}that if your ratio is lower than you would like for whatever reason,that you offer shows in the snail trade and B&P forums so that everyone who would like it has an opportunity to get it.When I send out B&P's and trades that have been sent to me I always ask they,at some point,try and reoffer it.I think that is pretty honest and fair dont you all?Also,per my only bad trade experience,try and know who you are trading with.
db.etree.org/ragu420
I also quite agree. POTHEADS=GREAT TRADERS! :wave:

skodechoker
2006-06-16, 11:58 AM
Ok, look at it this way...
Good bittorrent traders.
.

YOU STILL DONT GET IT.

The word trader does not apply to bit torrents. Thats the whole point Im arguing. When you seed a show you're not trading it and neither is anyone else who downloads it. You're SHARING. The word trade does not apply so quit applying it. Use the dictionary :lol: there is not once instance of the definition where the word trade applies to a torrent upload.

When you seed, you get nothing in return, you're giving that show away. Whoever is the next seed, is giving that show away to the next one. No one gets anything in return for seeding that show. When you TRADE, I send someone discs and they send me some discs. There is an actual exchange. When you seed, you're not getting a show in return and neither is the next seeder who uploads it to the next seeder. Its still that same show being SHARED.

I've never argued a bad ratio is not a bad sharer. But a bad ratio does not equal a bad trader, and not one person in this thread has shown anything substantial to saying that a bad ratio = bad trader. Just all conjecture and absolute hokey bullshit. No stats showing that a bad ratio is a bad trader, not one example. Its arguing that a bad ratio is a bad sharer, which I AGREE WITH.

Share - To participate in, use, enjoy, or experience jointly or in turns,
A part or portion belonging to, distributed to, contributed by, or owed by a person or group.

The Wicker Man
2006-06-16, 01:15 PM
Yep, I agree, Share The Groove!

.


those are dirty dirty words...


We must all bathe now in the Nile or something....:nono:

xequence
2006-06-16, 07:07 PM
what are you getting in return if you seed a show?

The knowledge you dont take and not give?

skodechoker, you are a disgrace to the online trading communit

Chachi, youre a big help to the online trading community.

sometimes you can't on individual torrents

Understandable. Just seed other torrents that you can seed. It is the overall ratio that counts in my opinion.

The word trader does not apply to bit torrents. Thats the whole point Im arguing. When you seed a show you're not trading it and neither is anyone else who downloads it. You're SHARING. The word trade does not apply so quit applying it. Use the dictionary there is not once instance of the definition where the word trade applies to a torrent upload.

Did you know that in a torrent, the clients accually do trade? They accually communicate with each other and say "ill give you this piece for this piece", though that is obviously dumbed down, they dont talk like that, but whatever ;P It isnt like physical trading in the sense that it isnt "ill give you this dvd for this one", but clients do trade pieces. The pieces are different on each torrent, often between 32KB to 4MB.

Festafarian
2006-06-17, 12:09 AM
Skode, you keep stressing the point that bt is not a trade. You are right, but I don't think that's the point. It's a matter of etiquette. As Chachi so eloquently said, it's like holding a door open. Just because it's not a rule, doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for it.

I understand about jumping on a torrent late and not being able to seed. Here's what works for me. I grab a number of torrents and check out the seeder/leecher ratio. Then I try to pick the torrent that is u/l the fastest. Sometimes a torrent that is d/l slow is a good thing in the long run, because when you get it, you are closer to that 1:1. I have d/l a number of shows that I couldn't possibly u/l equally. but made up for it by u/l faster torrents.

Skode, you are obviously not a bad trader, as your feedback proves, I think you just need to figure out the tricks to raising your ratio. I know it took me quite a lot of reading in the Technobabble section (and asking Lynne stupid questions :) ) to figure it out, but if I can do it with only about 40kb u/l, you can too.

diggrd
2006-06-17, 01:08 AM
I couln't agree with Dennis more this thread has gone on 5 pages more than it should have.
every person downloading must contribute by uploading their fair share
I think what's fair for me is my business and what's fair for you is yours. I only ask that I be allowed to determine my own ratio, any enforced site gets no more than 1:1 from me. I wish just like post counts I could shut ratios off.

How any of this has any bearing on my trader status (I suck btw which is why I will only do freebies) I'm not clear.

If some of us with unlimited quotas and high bandwidth don't mind over "trading" online just to get the music out there to those with quotas and slow connections then big deal. I have several terrabytes of shows I can jump on at any given time to help out, to me having that storage and the ability to seed stalled torents is as important as staying on a torrent till I share 1:1.

Sugarkane
2006-06-27, 11:57 PM
my 2 cents:

I have a crappy ratio due to both my ineptness at technology and the fact multiple denners share an IP. But, I'm seeding up some vines, I feel like i have been good with my mail trading, and within my circle of friends I give lots of free shows to those who don't have capabilities or are too lazy to get stuff on their own. i don't think ratio and trading status really affect each other.

sb76854
2006-06-30, 09:23 PM
I have not read the entire thread but my take on share ratio's is, (not that anyone cares :) ) You share ratio is an extention of your own personal character.

Your either a giver or a taker


Peace

schmoe75
2006-06-30, 09:44 PM
Your either a giver or a taker
what it all boils down to in the end :thumbsup

sb76854
2006-06-30, 10:29 PM
I have not read the entire thread but my take on share ratio's is, (not that anyone cares :) ) You share ratio is an extention of your own personal character.

Your either a giver or a taker


Peace


Your share ratio is an extention of your own personal character.

:lol

Man this Romulan is kickass!!

U2Lynne
2006-06-30, 10:58 PM
In case you guys didn't notice, you can now see if people do Vines or B&Ps when you look at their profile. I think sharing via Vines or B&Ps is just as important as a Share Ratio. (My opinion, of course.)

schmoe75
2006-06-30, 11:13 PM
I agree Lynne...and thats a great thing about this site, thru various means, 1 has the option to find out/see the kind of individual they may be interacting with and draw their own conclusion :wave:

sb76854
2006-06-30, 11:33 PM
Good point Lynn

Enjoy your vacation. I leave tommorow for a little rest and relaxation :wave:

U2Lynne
2006-06-30, 11:43 PM
Good point Lynn

Enjoy your vacation. I leave tommorow for a little rest and relaxation :wave:
Have a good time. My idea of a vacation is sun and water. We did it for a few days and came back today, and we take off tomorrow for several more days. My kids gave me funny looks as I sprayed them with sunscreen several times the last couple days. They'll thank me by Thursday.

U2Lynne
2006-06-30, 11:45 PM
I agree Lynne...and thats a great thing about this site, thru various means, 1 has the option to find out/see the kind of individual they may be interacting with and draw their own conclusion :wave:
I miss you, where have you been! :icon_hug: :love: :icon_hug:

puunjab
2006-07-14, 09:08 PM
I have not read the entire thread but my take on share ratio's is, (not that anyone cares :) ) You share ratio is an extention of your own personal character.

Your either a giver or a taker
Peace

Fuck you you condescending prick. When your ISP shuts you off twice for uploading too much you have to throttle back. I was a perfect 1 on Dime for over a year until Cox Cable shut me off. I didn't get the message to stop because I didn't use that email. In addition their front line tech didn't even know they shut me off. We spent an hour troubleshooting before it escalated to the next level. At that point they told me they shut me off.

They also told me they could care less about how much I download. I will continue to download as much as I can and I won't feel guiloty about it at all. When cox stops bitching me out and shutting me off I will upload an exact 1.0.

Until then fuck all you self righteous bastards. There is one big flaw in all of your arguments. Even if I upload nothing and download the complete show I haven't prevented anyone else from getting it. If the others are sharing I'm bumped to low man on their torrent peer list. There is no way I'll get it and somehow have stolen their bandwidth so they can't. I might not be helping new users get it when I get off, but I can't.

This "whole your stealing if your not 1.0" is bullshit. Until they enforce a ratio you haven't violated one damn thing.

I've got a Buckethead DVD and then a major Tea Leaf Green project coming. I firmly intend to put a dislaimer in the torrents that anyone who has ever bitched about ratios shouldn't download either one. If you do then your disregarding my wishes and stealing from me. Take it somewhere where ratios are enforced or shut the fuck up.

:down:

Silver Stallion DVDs
2006-07-15, 12:05 AM
I've got a Buckethead DVD and then a major Tea Leaf Green project coming. I firmly intend to put a dislaimer in the torrents that anyone who has ever bitched about ratios shouldn't download either one. If you do then your disregarding my wishes and stealing from me. Take it somewhere where ratios are enforced or shut the fuck up.

:down:
If you're really concerned about thieves, you could do a search for "share ratio" and find the majority of people who bitch about this subject - and then when those IDs pop up in the peer list, you could set your bittorrent client so that they are denied from being able to download from you. Not all clients allow you to do this, but many do. Just do some experimenting with your bittorrent client to find out how to do it (assuming it's possible with the client that you use).

This will shut 'em the fuck up!

BTW - is the Buckethead from the current tour? I'm trying to find video of a show he did in Michigan. I know it's out there because my little bro saw a couple of video cameras in the audience.

Randy

xequence
2006-07-15, 12:51 AM
If you're really concerned about thieves, you could do a search for "share ratio" and find the majority of people who bitch about this subject - and then when those IDs pop up in the peer list, you could set your bittorrent client so that they are denied from being able to download from you. Not all clients allow you to do this, but many do. Just do some experimenting with your bittorrent client to find out how to do it (assuming it's possible with the client that you use).

Telling someone how to not seed to people who care about share ratios isnt a good idea, in my opinion.

Though telling people how to not seed to Bitcomet users is a good idea :D

Silver Stallion DVDs
2006-07-15, 02:12 AM
Telling someone how to not seed to people who care about share ratios isnt a good idea, in my opinion.
I guess you just don't know my sense of humor ;)

xequence
2006-07-15, 01:27 PM
I guess you just don't know my sense of humor

Ive always been bad at knowing when someone is joking on the internet, sorry :P

A New Face In Hell
2006-07-15, 07:30 PM
Not wanting to get involved in a floomin' flame fer me second post... but due to various port/ firewall difficulties I have never been a seed or a leech, here or on Dime, or elsewhere, yet I have 800 or so gigs fer trade. They've all been done in the old fashioned way of trading, a few masters amongst em. And the fact that my so-called ratio (-of what???) is- and will continue to be- a fat ZERO makes me a bad trader :rolleyes: :disbelief :nono:

Hopefully I've misunderstood this thread ;)

sb76854
2006-07-18, 03:35 PM
Fuck you you condescending prick. When your ISP shuts you off twice for uploading too much you have to throttle back. I was a perfect 1 on Dime for over a year until Cox Cable shut me off. I didn't get the message to stop because I didn't use that email. In addition their front line tech didn't even know they shut me off. We spent an hour troubleshooting before it escalated to the next level. At that point they told me they shut me off.

They also told me they could care less about how much I download. I will continue to download as much as I can and I won't feel guiloty about it at all. When cox stops bitching me out and shutting me off I will upload an exact 1.0.

Until then fuck all you self righteous bastards. There is one big flaw in all of your arguments. Even if I upload nothing and download the complete show I haven't prevented anyone else from getting it. If the others are sharing I'm bumped to low man on their torrent peer list. There is no way I'll get it and somehow have stolen their bandwidth so they can't. I might not be helping new users get it when I get off, but I can't.

This "whole your stealing if your not 1.0" is bullshit. Until they enforce a ratio you haven't violated one damn thing.

I've got a Buckethead DVD and then a major Tea Leaf Green project coming. I firmly intend to put a dislaimer in the torrents that anyone who has ever bitched about ratios shouldn't download either one. If you do then your disregarding my wishes and stealing from me. Take it somewhere where ratios are enforced or shut the fuck up.

:down:



Tell us how you really feel :lol

The Wicker Man
2006-07-18, 04:36 PM
Fuck you you condescending prick. When your ISP shuts you off twice for uploading too much you have to throttle back. I was a perfect 1 on Dime for over a year until Cox Cable shut me off. I didn't get the message to stop because I didn't use that email. In addition their front line tech didn't even know they shut me off. We spent an hour troubleshooting before it escalated to the next level. At that point they told me they shut me off.

They also told me they could care less about how much I download. I will continue to download as much as I can and I won't feel guiloty about it at all. When cox stops bitching me out and shutting me off I will upload an exact 1.0.

Until then fuck all you self righteous bastards. There is one big flaw in all of your arguments. Even if I upload nothing and download the complete show I haven't prevented anyone else from getting it. If the others are sharing I'm bumped to low man on their torrent peer list. There is no way I'll get it and somehow have stolen their bandwidth so they can't. I might not be helping new users get it when I get off, but I can't.

This "whole your stealing if your not 1.0" is bullshit. Until they enforce a ratio you haven't violated one damn thing.

I've got a Buckethead DVD and then a major Tea Leaf Green project coming. I firmly intend to put a dislaimer in the torrents that anyone who has ever bitched about ratios shouldn't download either one. If you do then your disregarding my wishes and stealing from me. Take it somewhere where ratios are enforced or shut the fuck up.

:down:

Buckethead...
:rock: :puke

That was sooo insecure and defensive. If you truly didn't care, you would have wasted that hour and a half to write that post :rolleyes: