Web Casts . . .

[sonofedg]

Lots of prime stuff out there, maybe a new thread for these?

[sonofedg]

Just got a Billy Cobham, 2015' from Dime Looks Great! . . . IMO . . .

[rspencer]

This is covered in the Audio BitTorrent Seeding Policy (http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_rules).

12. Webcast rips and Digital Satellite Broadcasts are not permitted on The Traders' Den.
At the current time, webcasts and digital satellite radio broadcasts (such as xm radio) are not held to any reasonable quality standards. We are aware that there are some nice sounding webcasts and digital satellite radio broadcasts available in some locations, but at this point it would be a slippery slope to try to regulate what separates quality from not quality in these areas.

[UberDemon]

TTD admins, et al,

This is 2015, not 1998. It is beyond laughable that TTD hasn't found a way to allow webcast rips/dumps on this invaluable site while still maintaining acceptable levels of quality and proper documentation of lineage.

There are tools like rtmpdump and AdobeHDS.php that enable "lossless" (untouched would be a more appropriate term here, with the point being that these tools enable one to grab a bit-for-bit accurate rip of the webcast feed) rips. Let people upload webcast rips, but require that they provide screen grabs proving that the method that they used meet acceptable standards to be outlined by the TTD admin team.

It's one thing to implement quality standards (no screencasting grabs [blech], minimum bitrate requirements, accurate description of the method/software used, lineage, etc, but an outright ban?!! C'mon Den, you're better than that. There are so many excellent high definition streams out there these days that can only be obtained via webcast rip, and it's damn near a crime to deprive this community of music lovers of the plethora of material they're missing out on due to this antiquated rule. Sure, there are other sites where one can find webcast rips, but I don't want to see TTD go the way of Sugarmegs and fade away into obscurity because of a failure to change with the times.

As the aged hippie so eloquently told Monty Burns: "Contemporise, man!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdqLMkPqjOQ

- Uber

PS: DVD as a format is dying. It's on life support right now. It's now possible to convert a DVD to an mkv (matroska) file without transcoding thanks to FFMPEG and the libav dev team, yet per the TTD rules I think this also is currently disallowed. Yet another example of how this community is falling prey to stubbornly ignoring current technology trends. Sure, there's blu-ray, but why burn BD disks when one can simply use a media player/HTPC and playback their media without the need to buy/burn physical media?

/end rant

[rspencer]

PS: DVD as a format is dying. It's on life support right now. It's now possible to convert a DVD to an mkv (matroska) file without transcoding thanks to FFMPEG and the libav dev team, yet per the TTD rules I think this also is currently disallowed. Yet another example of how this community is falling prey to stubbornly ignoring current technology trends. Sure, there's blu-ray, but why burn BD disks when one can simply use a media player/HTPC and playback their media without the need to buy/burn physical media?

/end rant

From the HD Video Seeding Policy in the FAQ:

2. Permitted file formats.

High Definition Transport Stream (.ts) and Matroska container (.mkv) is preferred format for straight digital captures of HD TV broadcasts.

[UberDemon]

PS: DVD as a format is dying. It's on life support right now. It's now possible to convert a DVD to an mkv (matroska) file without transcoding thanks to FFMPEG and the libav dev team, yet per the TTD rules I think this also is currently disallowed. Yet another example of how this community is falling prey to stubbornly ignoring current technology trends. Sure, there's blu-ray, but why burn BD disks when one can simply use a media player/HTPC and playback their media without the need to buy/burn physical media?

/end rant

From the HD Video Seeding Policy in the FAQ:

2. Permitted file formats.

High Definition Transport Stream (.ts) and Matroska container (.mkv) is preferred format for straight digital captures of HD TV broadcasts.

Yes, but we're talking about WEBCASTS in this thread, not HD TV broadcasts. Also, I think you missed my point that instead of uploading an authored Blu-Ray an uploader could instead upload it in a single .mkv file, and the underlying video/audio codecs/bitstream would be IDENTICAL (lossless conversion of container) if the creator knows what they're doing. All you need to to is run ffmpeg on the appropriate m2ts file in the /STREAM folder using the "-c copy" flag, and the "-f matroska" flag = voila, a convenient single file in the widely-compatible/friendly mkv format instead of a Blu-Ray file structure (which isn't very convenient for the vast majority of us who are never going to burn BD-R media, but will instead play via a media center, Roku, etc).

International Jazz Day All Star Jam was webcasted yesterday in 1080p quality, but since it wasn't on "TV" it's disallowed unless I am misunderstanding the rules:

12. Webcast rips and Digital Satellite Broadcasts are not permitted on The Traders' Den.
At the current time, webcasts and digital satellite radio broadcasts (such as xm radio) are not held to any reasonable quality standards. We are aware that there are some nice sounding webcasts and digital satellite radio broadcasts available in some locations, but at this point it would be a slippery slope to try to regulate what separates quality from not quality in these areas.

[UberDemon]

PS, that rule cites "slippery slope" as a rationale, but slippery slope is a logical fallacy:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

It wouldn't be a slippery slope as long as well thought out and clearly defined rules/standards were implemented. It would be a wise move to explore this, IMO, but either way I am eternally grateful to you and all the other TTD admins who make this site possible. I just want to see the site keep up with modern times, and in 2015 (some) webcasts are the cat's meow when it comes to high quality video. It's just a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff and determining minimal quality standards for bitrates, rules about no re-encodes, proper methods of pulling dumps that don't transcode/screen capture, etc.

[rspencer]

I don't know if any other mods have seen this thread, and I'm not much of a video guy, but I'll pass it along. The video mods may have more to say. :thumbsup

[TriState]

UberDemon is right. There are no significant differences between a digitally captured HDTV broadcast and a digitally captured HD webcast. Both situations are capturing a lossy video (and often lossy audio) source and writing it to a container (like mkv).

Rewriting the rules to state a minimum bitrate, resolution, and lineage requirements would be a much more rational approach.

[sonofedg]

I'm throwing my hat in this ring, Traders Den NEEDS to allow Webcasts . . .Small Files, Quicker than a VOB file . . .

[U2Lynne]

PS, that rule cites "slippery slope" as a rationale, but slippery slope is a logical fallacy:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

It wouldn't be a slippery slope as long as well thought out and clearly defined rules/standards were implemented. It would be a wise move to explore this, IMO, but either way I am eternally grateful to you and all the other TTD admins who make this site possible. I just want to see the site keep up with modern times, and in 2015 (some) webcasts are the cat's meow when it comes to high quality video. It's just a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff and determining minimal quality standards for bitrates, rules about no re-encodes, proper methods of pulling dumps that don't transcode/screen capture, etc.
We are thinking about this, but I am just wondering what kind of "clearly defined rules" you would write to help define what is allowed?

[vladsmythe]

I'm throwing my hat in this ring, Traders Den NEEDS to allow Webcasts . . .Small Files, Quicker than a VOB file . . .
I buy 200 blank DVDs per week now, before they go away. Costco has discontinued their sales of them, and most stores such as Staples, Best Buy, Office Depot, etc. are saying the end is near. BluRay is also on the chopping block.

With the proliferation of high quality digital video, dvds are basically best for backing up important data as a hard copy, as hard drives will ultimately fail. At least half of my video downloads are digital source, and I watch them with my media player on my home theater system.

I will continue to make my archive vids dvd compliant for now, but sooner than later I will be uploading in digital format, to meet the needs of traders.

I too hope that the Trader's Den will consider this advancement in file sharing.

[sonofedg]

1. Must come from a conformed source,
2. All the lineage rules apply . . .
3. The quality of the webcast varies, so no whining if the webcast doesn't meet your standards
These would be a starting point . . . . .

[rspencer]

3. The quality of the webcast varies, so no whining if the webcast doesn't meet your standards

I understand what you're saying, but this point must be approached differently, as the entire goal at TTD is to ensure quality. We don't allow things just to allow them.
From the mission statement on the front page:


Quality is not an option in the seeds here, it will be the standard.

[dcbullet]

I agree with those that think we should figure out a standard to allow webcasts. I think the time has come.

[sonofedg]

My last 2 cents, allowing Web Casts would open the flood gates, (can we handle that sort of volume?) not allowing them would lead to more debate on the pros and cons . . . which like the US congress could go on forever . . .

[rspencer]

Oh, any change can/will brew up a shitstorm. You should read the minidisc thread. In this case, some will oppose webcasts...the others who support them will oppose any proposed restrictions. We try to meet up with the rest of the people somewhere in the middle.

[pawel]

Let me add 2c as I am co-author of TTD rules on video :D

UberDemon is right. There are no significant differences between a digitally captured HDTV broadcast and a digitally captured HD webcast.
No, in most cases there is a big difference, at least for materials coming from Europe: TV video bitrate is higher but at least 50%. Audio: vary. Have in mind that many webcasts have audio compressed (AAC) to and often below 160 kbps and sampling frequency 44.1 kHz, which is much worse than i.e. (minimum) Dolby Digital (AC3) 190 kbps / 48 kHz. Most digital TV broadcasts compress audio to 384 or 448 kbps and always at 48 kHz.

I wouldn't give a shit to a webcast which has 128 kbps AAC.

Both situations are capturing a lossy video (and often lossy audio) source and writing it to a container (like mkv).
Audio is always lossy. None TV nor streaming site offer audio in uncompressed PCM format nowadays. Uncompressed TV audio comes from the analogue era of broadcasts and captures - gone since late 90's. Of course there are re-captures of old VHS tapes which have audio in wave format, and mandatory sampled at 48 kHz.

Rewriting the rules to state a minimum bitrate, resolution, and lineage requirements would be a much more rational approach.

Agree. However, there always be a problem with some webcasts. I don't know why but AAC audio format not always provides info about its bitrate - none program I know returns the data. Then, except your ears, the only possibility to check how much it is compressed is to see its spectral frequency graph.
----------
BTW: it would be nice to include in this discussion Digital Audio Broadcast (DAB) as it is the same issue like webcasts vs. TV. I prefer DAB captures of 320 kbps/48 kHz over analogue FM > digital > flac. DVB-T/DVB-S DABs are less noisy, and often have better dynamic range than off-air captures.

Cheers,
Pawel

[sonofedg]

What are the Specs for Dime Webcasts?

[rspencer]

What are the Specs for Dime Webcasts?

We don't base our standards on other sites. There are things DIME allows that we do not, and vice versa. But, to answer your question, here's the gist (DIME doesn't have a well-defined policy either):

Regarding digital stream sources

Note: This section pertains to captures of streamed digital audio sources such as satellite broadcasts, webcasts, HD Radio, and the audio portion of digital television dish reception. See elsewhere on this page for policies covering material already captured or circulating as lossy digital files or the audio content of a digital video file or of a video on DVD.

Nearly all digital broadcasts and webcasts carry lossily compressed content. For some examples, broadcasts bearing acronyms such as DVB, DAB, and ADR or carried on networks like Sky Digital and Freeview are lossily compressed digital streams. Despite being lossy, they may be shared on DIME, provided that

No higher-bitrate digicast source is known to be at the trading community's disposal;
The description on the torrent's page and the internal info file of the torrent state both the compression format and the bit rate of the broadcast stream;
and
either ...

Preferably, the lossily compressed material is shared in its original compressed format, even if that prevents dividing it into tracks;
or
If the stream was transmitted at a bit rate of 192 kb/s or greater (for spoken [but music-related] content, 64 kb/s or greater), it may be shared in a conversion to a lossless compression format.

This provision is a special relaxation of DIME's standard losslessness requirement. If the bit rate and the codec are not stated, or if the torrent's information does not acknowledge its descent from a digital stream, then it does not qualify for this relaxation, and if the material proves lossy, the torrent may be banned for lossiness or lack of information or both.

[sonofedg]

In other words, it's evolving faster then we can keep up with it, My two pennies tells me to ride out this HUGE media Upgrade . . . and then pick up the pieces after the hype dies down . . .

[mwonter]

Good post, and probably spot on.

My guess is that this streaming issue will eventually have a streaming solution, i.e.,some place where these webcast streams can be archived and then accessed 24/7 without the use of bit torrent and without the need to archive them on your machine.

ymmv

[sonofedg]

And its name is, U-Tube, . . .