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View Full Version : ATRAC or LPCM ?


Drgiggles1
2013-01-11, 10:36 AM
Here are 5 flacs that Lucifer burns sent to me that were converted to WAV without error and zoomed in on 2 seconds. FA's and SA's analyzed with CEP in black and white. These are HI-MD minidisc masters.
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...01introwav.jpg (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/01fmmrt01introwav.jpg)
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...0Nightswav.jpg (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/02fmmrt02Landof1000Nightswav.jpg)
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...Callingwav.jpg (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/03fmmrt03HesCallingwav.jpg)
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...edHousewav.jpg (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/04fmmrt04RedHousewav.jpg)
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...gOurWaywav.jpg (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/05fmmrt05SomethingsComingOurWaywav.jpg)

Need opinions if these are LPCM mode mini disc recordings. I believe them to be LPCM and not ATRAC.

Lucifer burns
2013-01-11, 06:56 PM
^Thanks for your help, but it seems were being ignored???

AAR.oner
2013-01-12, 11:16 AM
doesn't look like ATRAC to me...but i'm not familiar with the newer "versions" of ATRAC so ymmv

Lucifer burns
2013-01-12, 06:16 PM
doesn't look like ATRAC to me...but i'm not familiar with the newer "versions" of ATRAC so ymmv

Thanks, could you please help us and send a MOD that is, so maybe this problem can be cleared up once and for all?
I like to be able to get back to uploading shows on here again asap.

lintoni
2013-01-13, 07:19 AM
They all look lossless to me.

Lucifer burns
2013-01-13, 09:07 AM
I don't understand, why we're being ignored by the MODS.
I thought this was the place they wanted you to post stuff so they could analize it??

AAR.oner
2013-01-13, 10:10 AM
yer not being ignored, we volunteer our time here which fluctuates...i've reported the post and hopefully one of the other mods can confirm what myself & lintoni said

Lucifer burns
2013-01-13, 12:47 PM
yer not being ignored, we volunteer our time here which fluctuates...i've reported the post and hopefully one of the other mods can confirm what myself & lintoni said

o.k. i'm very sorry then.
Thank you very much, hope to hear something soon!

paddington
2013-01-14, 12:47 PM
Hello.


your screens shots are of little use.

you may omit the frequency analysis, which has very little to do with determining whether audio has been through lossy data compression.


please post 2-3 second spans, in color, from Cool Edit Pro 2.x / Adobe Audition, so we can actually see something.

Lucifer burns
2013-01-15, 01:49 AM
^ O.k will do asap!!!

Lucifer burns
2013-01-18, 01:27 AM
So this is the only program on the market that can tell us when a Minidisc recording made after 1/1/2008 is lossy or not??

Cool Edit Pro 2.x / Adobe Audition

This not a cheap program and i did not see a "free trial version" available.

Before i purchused the SONY Hi-MD MZ-M200 i researched it in 2009(i was already a member here)to make sure it was not ATRAC or lossy in the standard modes. The manual even clearly denotes this with out actually using the word "lossy".
What i really think happened is that the technology has changed in Minidisc recorders since your ban in 2008, and you just don't want to admit you've made a mistake.
Instead it seems you want me to jump thru "hoops" to prove otherwise.
I've submitted the same frequency analysis at two other sites and they pass the "lossy test" for their sites, but it is not good enough here??

Come on guys let's pull that ban until you can prove the oppisite or just admit that the technology changed and you were unaware.
We all make mistakes and no one will hold it against you.

I have no desire what's so ever to share "lossy" recordings and would gladly support the ban....if you can prove otherwise.


You even state in you other comment on the other thread that not all MD's have ATRAC compression after 1/1/2008.

Audioarchivist
2013-01-18, 02:37 AM
So this is the only program on the market that can tell us when a Minidisc recording made after 1/1/2008 is lossy or not??

Cool Edit Pro 2.x / Adobe Audition

This not a cheap program and i did not see a "free trial version" available.

Before i purchused the SONY Hi-MD MZ-M200 i researched it in 2009(i was already a member here)to make sure it was not ATRAC or lossy in the standard modes. The manual even clearly denotes this with out actually using the word "lossy".
What i really think happened is that the technology has changed in Minidisc recorders since your ban in 2008, and you just don't want to admit you've made a mistake.
Instead it seems you want me to jump thru "hoops" to prove otherwise.
I've submitted the same frequency analysis at two other sites and they pass the "lossy test" for their sites, but it is not good enough here??

Come on guys let's pull that ban until you can prove the oppisite or just admit that the technology changed and you were unaware.
We all make mistakes and no one will hold it against you.

I have no desire what's so ever to share "lossy" recordings and would gladly support the ban....if you can prove otherwise.


You even state in you other comment on the other thread that not all MD's have ATRAC compression after 1/1/2008.

Well, first off, Adobe did an "interesting" thing recently, and basically made it free to download a bunch of Adobe programs (Including the formerly expensive Audition). You can easily find a download link for it here:
http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html

Secondly, if you record Hi-MD's as LPCM files (.wav files) they are lossless and good to post. Any other "standard modes" it records in are lossy and banned, unless the show was recorded pre 01/01/2008.

You're being pretty ignorant of the fact that the users of this site have debated and (more or less) agreed that we will adhere to a higher standard of standardness, and that there are plenty of other sites to upload less than our standard of quality. If you KNOW you're recordings are LPCM then there's no need to test them, is there? I believe you can get 90 minutes on one Hi-MD large capacity minidiscs. If you're not using those dreadfully expensive Hi-MD discs to record on, then it won't be LPCM, it will be lossy, and not allowed...

AAR.oner
2013-01-18, 07:32 AM
seems AudioArchivist and i both responded in both threads now :lol: cheers for the help AA


luciferburns, and anyone who wants a further explanation re: MiniDiscs, whats allowed/not allowed, Spectrum Analysis, etc etc...see response in this thread:
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101756

Lucifer burns
2013-01-18, 08:21 AM
Alright, thank you for both responding!!
i will do more research and i will download that link, but now i think i do have the answer i was looking for.
I really appreciate the help & clarity in the matter.
It can be a bit confusing.

AAR.oner
2013-01-18, 08:21 AM
no problem at all, and yes it can be confusing...which is why we're here!

Drgiggles1
2013-01-18, 12:35 PM
Hello.


your screens shots are of little use.

you may omit the frequency analysis, which has very little to do with determining whether audio has been through lossy data compression.


please post 2-3 second spans, in color, from Cool Edit Pro 2.x / Adobe Audition, so we can actually see something.
Here you go in color as you wish.
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/01fmmrt01introwav-1.jpg
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/02fmmrt02Landof1000Nightswav-1.jpg
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/03fmmrt03HesCallingwav-1.jpg
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/04fmmrt04RedHousewav-1.jpg
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/DrGiggles1/05fmmrt05SomethingsComingOurWaywav-1.jpg

co9ol
2013-01-18, 07:03 PM
Could by lossy, there is a definite drop off after 17k ish? I think I see some blocks too.

Audioarchivist
2013-01-18, 09:52 PM
Sort of looks like a cutoff at almost 17khz, and MAYBE a little lego block-y. Honestly still a little hard to tell - screen resolution is still a little too low, and it's making the pixels a little blurry! A higher resolution screenshot would be a little better, IMHO...

I do see a bit of a 20k band especially on the right side, though.... Hmmm...

OK, here's a question, how were these files transferred to the computer? Digital transfer via USB, or did you play them in at real time via the analog line out to your analog line in on a soundcard or something?

Any more info than just a screenshot would help to identify what you're doing. The more we know, the more we can figure out...

paddington
2013-01-19, 12:36 AM
Frequency range / HF roll off are not indicative of lossy data compression.



All those samples look lossy. I have a question about one of them, but they're all compromised, I'm pretty sure. It's hard to be certain because of the low resolution of the screen caps :lmao:

I'm sorry to keep asking for things, but please try to make your screenshots at least 300dpi, else it becomes difficult to read what's going on in the spectrum analyzer. Low res jpgs blur details pretty badly because... Get this. Lol... It's lossy compression

co9ol
2013-01-19, 07:30 AM
Next time maybe post small sections in FLAC instead of having to give 1000 different screen shots lol