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Lossy or Lossless? Please use this forum to post spectral and frequency analysis posts about shows you have your doubts about.

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  #16  
Old 2005-06-03, 11:53 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

rabble, just use linear please.

I meant clicking around on the wave to move the cursor postition. the fa will update itself each time you click on a new place. the bit numbers at the bottom that say 0:00.000 will change to different numbers each time you change the cursor positon. Likewise, the fa will change everytime you switch postiton. CEP has a little but that sometimes the fa gets frozen so I just want to make sure that we're getting the right readings.

here's some illustrations too:
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File Type: gif rabfa1.gif
( 72.5 KB, 51 views)
 
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  #17  
Old 2005-06-03, 11:54 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

after you move the cursor, the little yellow triangle will be over at the right, and the time display and the fa display will be different.
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  #18  
Old 2005-06-03, 11:55 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

change the cursor positon and watch the fa changing. take a screenshot of an average-looking result.
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  #19  
Old 2005-06-04, 02:14 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Some loss is in there. Maybe some noise reduction to remove the 19 kHz pilot tone?
I donīt think itīs mp3 (no square blocked out area).
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  #20  
Old 2005-06-04, 02:27 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
after you move the cursor, the little yellow triangle will be over at the right, and the time display and the fa display will be different.

Ohhh, ok, I get what you're saying, cursor as in little yellow thing, not cursor as in mouse. Is this what you mean? (Linear View, chose an averagish looking one):
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  #21  
Old 2005-06-04, 02:28 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by range_hood
Some loss is in there. Maybe some noise reduction to remove the 19 kHz pilot tone?
I donīt think itīs mp3 (no square blocked out area).
What's the 19khz pilot tone? If this was the case, would it still be tradable (ala "lossless", even though it technically isn't?)
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  #22  
Old 2005-06-04, 04:55 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

this one is weird. I'm not so sure now. in the SA it cuts off ruler-straight at 16kHz which is a bad sign, but it doesn't really look blocky enough and the FA looks good. I thought the FA might be displaying wrong since there's no response above 16kHz in the SA how is it there's lots going on up there in the FA?

so now I'm thinking this might not be mp3 after all. but I can't figure out how everything about 16kHz is missing so perfectly in the SA
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  #23  
Old 2005-06-04, 05:01 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
this one is weird. I'm not so sure now. in the SA it cuts off ruler-straight at 16kHz which is a bad sign, but it doesn't really look blocky enough and the FA looks good. I thought the FA might be displaying wrong since there's no response above 16kHz in the SA how is it there's lots going on up there in the FA?

so now I'm thinking this isn't mp3 after all. but I can't figure out how everything about 16kHz is missing so perfectly in the SA
If you'd like, I can upload a track from it to my webhost for you to download and look around at if it would help.. Would you mind, or do you think that it's safe to say this is lossless at this point?
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  #24  
Old 2005-06-04, 05:20 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
I thought the FA might be displaying wrong since there's no response above 16kHz in the SA how is it there's lots going on up there in the FA?
Do you have a TFT monitor?. I have one. I have to look from above of the monitor to recognize rather (I think itīs) dark blue than black (no response) above 16k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble
What's the 19khz pilot tone?
Hereīs some overview on Frequency Modulation (FM) (credits to : 4candles)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../radio.html#c2
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  #25  
Old 2005-06-04, 05:24 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Anyone else who wants to grab the track from this to take a look at, it will be available temporarily here. Once we get this mystery figured out, I'm taking it down, so if you crazy future people out there stumble upon this thread, the link probably won't work.
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  #26  
Old 2005-06-04, 06:53 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

I would say itīs some sort of noise reduced fm. Or a non-mp2 souced cableFM.
As I see on db.etree.org this show is not common in the lists.
I think itīs getting time to do an encyclopedia of known spectrals and for some sort of fill in form in the new-thread page of this sub forum to keep an overview.
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  #27  
Old 2005-06-04, 07:19 PM
rabble
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by range_hood
I would say itīs some sort of noise reduced fm. Or a non-mp2 souced cableFM.
As I see on db.etree.org this show is not common in the lists.
I think itīs getting time to do an encyclopedia of known spectrals and for some sort of fill in form in the new-thread page of this sub forum to keep an overview.
Yeah, the entry you see for me there is actually for the RM Video Stream > VCD of this set I did for my own enjoyment.. Haven't even added my audio copy yet until I can verify this is lossless... So, knowing what you know, would you say that this is lossless "enough" to be tradeable?
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  #28  
Old 2005-06-04, 07:39 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Okay I had a look and a listen. There's almost no activity above 16kHz, just a slight bit of noise. Using better FA shows quite a steep drop at 16kHz just like the SA is showing. The frequency response is sawed off right at 16kHz in a way that doesn't look like nr. I now believe this is a webcast/mp2 broadcast that's been thru a very clean analog stage which has added that tiny bit of noise in the highs. In terms of sound there's some slurring audible in the sibilants which is typical of FM and lossy but the sound is maybe a bit too nice for a typical RM webcast. I would make note of this information in the .txt file and trade it as a "best available source" most likely SBD>?>?mp2>?FM>unknown (most likely analog) transfer>FLAC

I know that's a pretty sketchy lineage to read but its the most accurate and honest I can come up with after puzzling over this for a couple days.

Here's some better FA analaseez taken from the sample I recieved. Take a look up around 16kHz at that drop, I couldn't trade this and tell ppl it is lossless with a straight face.
Attached Images
File Type: gif darkstar-audacityFA1.gif
( 10.5 KB, 13 views)
 
File Type: gif darkstar-analfreqFAleft.gif
( 16.3 KB, 10 views)
 
File Type: gif darkstar-analfreqFAright.gif
( 16.3 KB, 10 views)
 
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  #29  
Old 2005-06-04, 07:47 PM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by range_hood
I think itīs getting time to do an encyclopedia of known spectrals and for some sort of fill in form in the new-thread page of this sub forum to keep an overview.
This is exactly what I want to do. I can dig up a bunch of wav - mp3 comparisons done on the same file and post those in a tidy way in a sticky at the top of this forum as I've done with your MD SA. we could also use FA for that same MD sample, preferably Audacity and AnalFreq because they are the most accurate. The CEP SA is perfect. This stuff will eventually become part of a lossy reference archive including WMA, OGG, RM, AC3 and all that.
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  #30  
Old 2005-06-05, 09:14 AM
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Re: Devendra Banhart - Live @ KCRW; Lossy Source? (Freq. screencap inside)

Is this seedable here? Or on another tracker with external link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
we could also use FA for that same MD sample, preferably Audacity and AnalFreq because they are the most accurate.
Iīm not so in FAs.
Do you mean one of this two or both? Is there a reason why you choose a different FFT size. The AnalFreq cap looks better for me (I like this 1kHz steps more than the 3KHz ones of audacity). Though Analfreq quits after choosing the channel with an error.
Are these shots of the whole files?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
This stuff will eventually become part of a lossy reference archive including WMA, OGG, RM, AC3 and all that.
Would be cool to do such a thing.
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