The Traders' Den  

  The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble
 

Notices

Technobabble Post your general Need for Help questions here.
ē Lossy or Lossless?
Moderators

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 2008-12-19, 03:23 PM
desiderus's Avatar
desiderus desiderus is offline
42.56 GB/40.83 GB/0.96
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by rspencer View Post
Do not use tape. Tape is just used to sub for the tabs. If the tabs are still there, break them.

Putting tape on will allow them to be recorded on, not protect them.
Thanks guys for all the advise you posted, it's very useful to read through all the different opinions and stuff.

Iíll be transferring masters as well as copied tapes. A lot of these copied tapes arenít circulating any more. Iím not sure if these tapes have been copied properly, but since they are only the few that are still Ďout thereí I just have to go with that.

Iím a bit confused about all the holes and tabs your talking about. (read only/ wright only) Anyone able to drop some pictures to clear things up in my mind?

Thanks again guys!
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #32  
Old 2008-12-19, 03:37 PM
LeifH12345's Avatar
LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
382.12 GB/1.67 TB/4.48
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver
Re: tape transferring



The holes are right beside the tabs to permit or deny recording to the tape.

Normal position tapes have no extra holes, just the tabs.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #33  
Old 2008-12-19, 04:20 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: tape transferring

you only need to mess with those holes if you want to play a chrome/metal tape back using the incorrect setting on a deck that auto-detects the correct setting. so if you're playing a chrome tape in the little window it should say 'chrome' or 'cr02' or something and if its a normal tape (choose any official release lying around) it should say 'normal'. or there's a switch on the front to choose if its not automatic.

is that about as clear as mud? let us know if you're getting it...
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #34  
Old 2008-12-19, 05:27 PM
desiderus's Avatar
desiderus desiderus is offline
42.56 GB/40.83 GB/0.96
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Re: tape transferring

I actually think Iím getting the hang of these holes and tabs haha.

I just shot a picture of two tapes, I found out that I only have normal position tapes lying around because none of the tapes I checked have those extra holes. The tape deck I got automatically selects the tape type.

The first tape on the picture shows a tape with the tab intact, so Iíll be able to recorded over this tape. The second tape shows the tabs cracked, with this tape Iíll only be able to read the information on it. Correct? So this means that itís preferable to crack all the tabs if I donít want to accidently loose anything.

Sorry for being such a noob guys!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tapes.jpg
( 41.9 KB, 100 views)
 
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #35  
Old 2008-12-19, 06:41 PM
Five's Avatar
Five Five is offline
TTD Staff
186.65 GB/588.32 GB/3.15
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Re: tape transferring

yes, you're understanding... crack all those tabs, unless the tapes are blank!

now for the next part... the 'hole beside the hole' indicates that it is a chrome tape. if you dig up the cheapest cassette you can find or some official release cassette compare how it looks different from the chrome tapes above. similarly, for metal tapes there's a hole close to the middle (one for each side). more expensive tape decks detect not only the record enable/disable tab (the ones you're breaking) but also use the other holes (or lack thereof) to detect the type of tape: normal, chrome or metal. a special filter is applied to chrome and metal tapes by the player, or on cheaper decks/walkmans you have a two-position switch for either normal or chrome/metal playback. I believe it sounds best to play back the tapes the correct way, but some people feel differently... so you can tape over the 'chrome' or 'metal' holes to temporarily trick your tapedeck into playing it back without using the correct filter (a bad idea 99% of the time imo, but in case you want to give it a shot...)
__________________
Checksums Demystified EAC Config MakeTorrent WinAmp Config

Modern social theory casts a highly skeptical eye on any declaration that a group of persons is without conflict, and insists, on the contrary, that conflict is natural to groups, and even more, is essential to them. -Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #36  
Old 2008-12-19, 07:13 PM
LeifH12345's Avatar
LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
382.12 GB/1.67 TB/4.48
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five View Post
temporarily trick your tapedeck into playing it back without using the correct filter (a bad idea 99% of the time imo, but in case you want to give it a shot...)
It definately changes the sound.

I think it's worth checking, but it won't necessarily be better (or worse).
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #37  
Old 2008-12-19, 07:20 PM
LeifH12345's Avatar
LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
382.12 GB/1.67 TB/4.48
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver
Re: tape transferring



The holes circled in red are the ones that determine the type of tape (playback). Normal position tapes don't have these, just the tabs.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #38  
Old 2008-12-19, 07:40 PM
Audioarchivist's Avatar
Audioarchivist Audioarchivist is offline
Recording/Mastering Engineer
560.16 GB/1.94 TB/3.54
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Audio - Audience Re: tape transferring

If all you're going to do is play a tape in and track separate it (ie: no remastering) then, yeah, probably best to make the playback sound as natural as possible, and playback with proper bias setting. I still wouldn't use dolby unless the master is very VERY bright and brittle harsh sounding without it.

I however will always playback at normal setting with no dolby to get the most signal to noise ratio as possible, and knock it back in the digital realm where noise is no longer a factor. Any analog signal that's going through any wire will deteriorate somewhat, so if I muffle it with chrome bias or heaven forbid, Dolby, it can let a bad signal get worse. Maximum output without distortion to digital, and let my digital treatment remove that brittleness and in some cases simulate what the dolby does at a smaller degree than it's heavy hit to the highs...

I wouldn't recommend remastering digitally for a noob, so get the tape sounding as good and as natural as you can and just record it and split tracks and torrent it. However if you want to experiment, maybe you'll get lucky!
__________________
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #39  
Old 2008-12-20, 07:30 AM
tilomagnet tilomagnet is offline
12.16 GB/7.52 GB/0.62
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: tape transferring

Sorry, but a Dolby encoded Chrome or Metal tape played back with 110us and Dolby off is completely unlistenable to me. WAY too bright. Yeah, if you have a slightly muffled tape it may sound 'better' at first listen, but you'll soon grow tired of that awful brittle sound plus you still have the hiss of course.

I have a dozen or so decks (Dragon, CR-7, Revox B215 etc.) and I know that Dolby tapes don't always decode perfectly when played back on other decks, so I understand if someone would prefer playback without decoding (I don't), but this requires massive EQ work in post-production to cut back the high end and to EQ the recording back into a listenable one.

The EQ settings however must be appropriate for the tape type. Type I settings for Chrome tapes is just wrong IMO.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #40  
Old 2008-12-20, 09:18 AM
tilomagnet tilomagnet is offline
12.16 GB/7.52 GB/0.62
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioarchivist View Post
I still wouldn't use dolby unless the master is very VERY bright and brittle harsh sounding without it.
I don't think it's wise idea to use Dolby and bias settings as an 'EQ substitute' and apply these settings depending on the sound of the recording: "Hmm, this sounds a bit dull to me, so let's leave the Dolby off."

I mean, for 10th gen tapes it doesn't matter really, because all the damage is there already, but when archiving masters one should try to preserve the natural sound of the recording and not a distortion of it. If you playback a Dolby tape without decoding you get a distortion of the real thing, the sound has been boosted throughout the freq range on recording and the boost is not getting reversed on playback. Even if it may sound better to you at the moment it still doesn't sound as it was meant to be.

Then in a couple of years from now you may listen to these non-decoded on a different, higher quality playback set-up and these transfers will sound way worse and un-natural and at this point you'll probably regret the decision to play them back without Dolby.

I've got that 1978 Queen show that you uploaded and while it is definately an overall very well done transferring job (azimuth etc.) and the sound is very clear and balanced, when listening on my decent playback set-up it sounds artificially bright and noisy and gets annoying after a while. It does more or less resemble one those many boot release that someone EQ'ed the hell out of to make a supossedly 'muddy' tape as clear as possible. I hope someday this transfer gets re-done with proper settings.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #41  
Old 2008-12-20, 09:20 AM
Karst's Avatar
Karst Karst is offline
Utterly Bastard Groovy
71.16 GB/89.50 GB/1.26
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Belfast
Re: tape transferring

What's on tha tapes actually? Studio material or live bootleg recordings? I' say that might make a difference in the transfer settings?
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #42  
Old 2008-12-20, 02:48 PM
LeifH12345's Avatar
LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
382.12 GB/1.67 TB/4.48
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilomagnet View Post
I that 1978 Queen show
If a tape sounds really good to me, I'll digitize it without any EQ.

But I would rather release an EQ'd version, because then my true master isn't in circulation.

Go ahead and bash me for it, 'cause that will change my mind.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #43  
Old 2008-12-20, 03:00 PM
zeek's Avatar
zeek zeek is offline
197.82 GB/788.06 GB/3.98
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PA
Re: tape transferring

so do you make the eq'ed version sound worse than the master? If you did things properly and released it in as good as form as you can, what does it matter if the master circulates . Your tapes, your choice. I'm just curious.

The end goal on any of these tapes is to release them in the best possible shape.

desiderus, in the end, I would highly suggest you do the homework, research the stuff thats being discussed, and make the calls yourself. It seems you really care enough about your masters to try to get yourself acquainted with the ins and outs, the extra effort and research will really make the transfers worth while. There has been some sound advice given here, and some that I would pass along if I wanted someone to foob a tape. Sometimes it's better to get it from the horses mouth so to speak.

I have some stuff I can pass along to you if you really want to get down to the nuts and bolts of editing/transfers. PM me if you want it
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #44  
Old 2008-12-20, 03:11 PM
LeifH12345's Avatar
LeifH12345 LeifH12345 is offline
382.12 GB/1.67 TB/4.48
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
so do you make the eq'ed version sound worse than the master? If you did things properly and released it in as good as form as you can, what does it matter if the master circulates . Your tapes, your choice. I'm just curious.

The end goal on any of these tapes is to release them in the best possible shape.
I make it the same, but different. I don't make it sound worse.

Plus, (and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular) I'm the one that snuck in the gear. Go and tape stuff yourself.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
  #45  
Old 2008-12-20, 04:02 PM
GRC's Avatar
GRC GRC is offline
Trader since 1980
1.86 TB/1.37 TB/0.73
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Re: tape transferring

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilomagnet View Post
Sorry, but a Dolby encoded Chrome or Metal tape played back with 110us and Dolby off is completely unlistenable to me. WAY too bright. .....
I agree; if the tape you're playing back was recorded with Dolby, then if you play it back without Dolby you'll get a lot of high-end boost, and a shrill sounding playback.

I'm tempted to suggest; if it was recorded with Dolby, play it back with Dolby, and then if it sounds too dull, give it a bit of treble boost at that stage.

That's me used 1 out of my 2 cents' worth.
Reply With Quote Reply with Nested Quotes
Reply

The Traders' Den > Where we go to learn ..... > Technobabble

Tags
much ado over nothing, throw the analog tapes away

Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
Transferring vinyl to digital - Scott Technobabble 11 2008-12-01 04:03 AM
Help with transferring/seeding/etc...! - dannyandamie Technobabble 14 2008-11-26 11:13 PM
Transferring Mini DV to DVD - bosscheech Technobabble 9 2008-09-15 11:00 AM
transferring cassettes to cdr - PEPPER Technobabble 20 2007-01-15 05:37 PM
Transferring analog videos - DanielG Technobabble 0 2006-11-15 07:33 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forums


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:06 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - , TheTradersDen.org - All Rights Reserved - Hosted at QuickPacket
no new posts