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  #31  
Old 2005-03-22, 10:56 AM
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Talking Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_vargas
rock on!! i do the same - use RecordNow Max... for both archived DVDs and Video-DVDs. works flawlessly for me, and never had an issue with a DVD not playing in a settop player. and the un-changed IFOs/BUPs are quite a bonus, apparently.
Wow, you guys are kicking butt on this discussion... glad I wasn't the only one who found the subject worthy of some bw.

FWIW, I'm using RecordNow Max too and getting perfect results and great playability (is that a word?).

As far as the .ifo and .bup changing, I obviously don't love the idea, as I'm an anal perfectionist who likes the md5's to check exactly... but these are just pointers and at the end of the day do not change the 'content' of the DVD, right? (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm more of an audio guy in intellect) With that said, if the VOBs pass md5, then really you don't have a matching fileset, but you have the important/vital data, right?

Someone mentioned this issue being the SBE's of the video world and while the pointers to basically serve the same purpose--in my understanding--the editing of the ifo and bup files do not produce artifacts that degrade the watching/listening experience as SBE's do in the case of clicks between tracks on CD-A. So I agree, but to a varying degree

best,
Jim
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  #32  
Old 2005-03-22, 05:22 PM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraras
As far as the .ifo and .bup changing, I obviously don't love the idea, as I'm an anal perfectionist who likes the md5's to check exactly... but these are just pointers and at the end of the day do not change the 'content' of the DVD, right? (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm more of an audio guy in intellect) With that said, if the VOBs pass md5, then really you don't have a matching fileset, but you have the important/vital data, right?

Someone mentioned this issue being the SBE's of the video world and while the pointers to basically serve the same purpose--in my understanding--the editing of the ifo and bup files do not produce artifacts that degrade the watching/listening experience as SBE's do in the case of clicks between tracks on CD-A. So I agree, but to a varying degree

best,
Jim
Good points. I have sort of "decided" for myself that the .VOB files have to match, and not the .ifo and .bup files. I don't know enough about this matter to defend this decision though...

Could a faulty .ifo file introduce a pause/stalling of approximately 2 seconds between chapters on a DVD or would that be caused by something different? I have some DVDs with this happening. Would love to be able to correct it.

And another thing: If Toast/Nero actually does good to some DVDs .ifo and .bup files - I would not like to use a burning app that doesn't - but then again that's the whole basis of this discussion and I'm still puzzled...
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  #33  
Old 2005-03-23, 04:52 AM
h_vargas
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

what i would like is to see a side-by-side comparison of the BUPs/IFOs from pre- and post-burning with these programs that do something to change the files. from what i know, IFO files generally are like "cue sheets" (well, they're info files to be precise) that tell a DVD player where chapter points are, what language(s) are on the DVD, region info, what functions are/aren't disabled on the remote control, blah blah.

so, i'd be interested to look at a side-by-side of the altered IFO vs. the original IFO, if someone cares to take the time to post them. (they would be very small files, since they're essentially text files of sorts... so it wouldn't take foreever to upload them to a server or anything.)

on another note, i will reiterate: RecordNow Max rules. the only time i use Nero to burn DVDs is when i'm burning a test DVD on a RW disc, because Nero doesn't make me erase the disc, i can just burn over the existing data (RecordNow won't let me do that).
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  #34  
Old 2005-07-16, 12:22 AM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Resurrecting this from the dead, with actual md5s to show from a recently torrented show, Phish 1997-02-18.

I burned disc 1 using DVD-ROM(UDF) with Toast Titanium. The .bup and .ifo files changed. I'm wondering of someone else can confirm this. original md5s (folder hierarchy is different but that doesn't matter):
000103302beea4d31408662447337e98 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
000103302beea4d31408662447337e98 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
c27fd02800c1a22261692bae9eb61f75 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.VOB
18ef947fbdf8cd5479154a052a68219c *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
18ef947fbdf8cd5479154a052a68219c *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
2d682bd0f81c8b84e08b9d56f309446d *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.VOB
9b152723abdf8755c7b467bb4ff8482c *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
a6014b3017207d5dc67036bdeebeea17 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
09ecf641a66e64129521650c9e7420e2 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
c095f88e1a3a53ef53d7072d2648e2e8 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
99c35d80f37c6618aa9c56b5fdb3a231 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB
07c1e31de135bc0102e0da877acdca3c *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_0.BUP
07c1e31de135bc0102e0da877acdca3c *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_0.IFO
c27fd02800c1a22261692bae9eb61f75 *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_0.VOB
8e147fa360421cf2f4d138d7f9d68efc *set I\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_1.VOB

md5s from the burned disc, only .bup and .ifo different:
b442bc0bd80e36a0e3fb0462a38cd27d *VIDEO_TS.BUP
b442bc0bd80e36a0e3fb0462a38cd27d *VIDEO_TS.IFO
c27fd02800c1a22261692bae9eb61f75 *VIDEO_TS.VOB
18ef947fbdf8cd5479154a052a68219c *VTS_01_0.BUP
18ef947fbdf8cd5479154a052a68219c *VTS_01_0.IFO
2d682bd0f81c8b84e08b9d56f309446d *VTS_01_0.VOB
9b152723abdf8755c7b467bb4ff8482c *VTS_01_1.VOB
a6014b3017207d5dc67036bdeebeea17 *VTS_01_2.VOB
09ecf641a66e64129521650c9e7420e2 *VTS_01_3.VOB
c095f88e1a3a53ef53d7072d2648e2e8 *VTS_01_4.VOB
99c35d80f37c6618aa9c56b5fdb3a231 *VTS_01_5.VOB
07c1e31de135bc0102e0da877acdca3c *VTS_02_0.BUP
07c1e31de135bc0102e0da877acdca3c *VTS_02_0.IFO
c27fd02800c1a22261692bae9eb61f75 *VTS_02_0.VOB
8e147fa360421cf2f4d138d7f9d68efc *VTS_02_1.VOB

It would be great if someone could confirm this with Toast and especially Nero. I'm emailing the seeder to see if he ripped these files off a data DVD or a "playable" DVD (ie burned with Nero or Toast DVD-ROM(UDF)). This may get to the root of the problem.
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  #35  
Old 2005-07-16, 12:44 AM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

I also contacted the seeder to see whether he seeded "data" files or whether he seeded a rip from a "playable" DVD.
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  #36  
Old 2005-07-16, 01:39 AM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

I noticed the same thing recently when I sent two DVDs to a guy in Holland... he doesn't have a DVD burner so it was very, very important that I burn a playable DVD for him so he could play it on his standalone. One was taken from a video DVD, when I burned that one I generated .md5 checksums from it and they matched exactly. The other was downloaded from STG and when I burned it the BUP and IFO were different but the VOBs were identical. I emailed the guy the artwork, .txt files and .md5s. The disc with the wrong checksums would be considered bastardized in some way, but are they really?

this was posted over here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffooky
Given that the big beasts (Nero & Toast) both sometimes make these changes, might it not be sensible for people to make a separate md5 of the VOBs as well as one of the entire contents of the VIDEO_TS folder ? Any differences in BUPs and IFOs are likely to be imperceptible but would prevent verification/comparison in much the same way as changing tags does with an audio files/wholefile md5 set.

Edit: forget it...talking bollocks as usual :-)
Now is this a good or a bad idea? At first read it seemed to me like a great idea. As I was mentioning earlier in this thread, it would be good to know if toast and nero make the same changes when they "fix" the BUP and IFO files, if after the first time it is burned to video dvd the checksums stay the same on mac or pc then this would almost be like fixing SBEs, right? What are the advantages and/or drawbacks to allowing BUP and IFO files to be altered, so long as the VOB checksums remain the same?
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  #37  
Old 2005-07-16, 12:15 PM
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gsmyth79 gsmyth79 is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

I think as long as the .vob files are the same it probably doesn't make any difference. It's pretty annoying for me being an "md5 freak" and all. It seems like there's no way around this. I'm just going to keep the people I trade with informed if I'm giving them a disc with a different .bup and .ifo than the downloaded one.

I think an md5 of the entire contents' md5 is necessary to make sure the download is correct, but I don't think people should swet the altered files. For me it happens very infrequently, and I make a note of it in my records.
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  #38  
Old 2005-07-16, 01:10 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmyth79
I think as long as the .vob files are the same it probably doesn't make any difference. It's pretty annoying for me being an "md5 freak" and all. It seems like there's no way around this. I'm just going to keep the people I trade with informed if I'm giving them a disc with a different .bup and .ifo than the downloaded one.

I think an md5 of the entire contents' md5 is necessary to make sure the download is correct, but I don't think people should swet the altered files. For me it happens very infrequently, and I make a note of it in my records.
I agree - it's annoying, but seems to be unavoidable (unless we trade .iso images, which then cause their own problems).

Given that you've made notes about this, have you noticed any patterns in which DVDs have their IFO files modified when burning to DVD? i.e. do you know which DVD authoring programs were used for those DVDs?

If anyone has a set of "before" and "after" IFO files that are changed by Nero or Toast, I would be very interested in getting a copy to analyse.
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  #39  
Old 2005-07-16, 05:29 PM
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gsmyth79 gsmyth79 is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

4c-

I can post the .ifo from the discs I burned of Phish 2.18.97 but I don't have the original file anymore.
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  #40  
Old 2005-07-16, 05:41 PM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Question to Mac folks: can you read a data DVD (containing i.e. flacs, txts, jpgs) burnt under Windows? I think that such disc is readable without any problem, but I like to be sure. I had once a trade with a Mac guy who cliamed that he cannot read a "PC DVD disc". Of course the disc was burnt correctly - checked with md5 and CDCheck.
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  #41  
Old 2005-07-16, 05:46 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmyth79
4c-

I can post the .ifo from the discs I burned of Phish 2.18.97 but I don't have the original file anymore.
Does anyone reading this have the original IFO files from that show?

I think they would only be useful if I had both the "before" and "after" IFOs.

It's not convenient, but maybe one solution would be to create a ZIP file containing the original downloaded IFO files, and add that zip file to the DVD (outside of the VIDEO_TS folder) before burning.

That way, you would be able to restore the original downloaded files to your HD, and compare the MD5 checksums, without the need for burning two copies of the show.
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  #42  
Old 2005-07-16, 06:05 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

2-19-97 was seeded by SYF8. I can PM him and see if we can get the ifo files. Or, if someone has Azureus, then you can just grab those files off the torrent. Actually, I'm doing that now and I'll post them here.

As for reading a DVD written by a PC on a Mac, I have been able too. I think what matters is how it is burned. I know in Toast, when I make a data DVD (for flacs, etc), I choose the Advanced tab and hit "Mac & PC". But, there is another option for "Mac Only". Perhaps the person who says he can't read a PC produced DVD once got one that was written wrong.
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  #43  
Old 2005-07-16, 08:20 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2Lynne
2-19-97 was seeded by SYF8. I can PM him and see if we can get the ifo files. Or, if someone has Azureus, then you can just grab those files off the torrent. Actually, I'm doing that now and I'll post them here.
Thanks. Did you mean to write 2-19-97? gsmyth79's DVD was 2-18-97. That would cause the MD5s to be different

I don't have a BT client that lets me to selectively download files, so I can't do it myself.

gsmyth79 - can you post the modified IFO files?
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  #44  
Old 2005-07-21, 12:49 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

I've now compared the "VIDEO_TS.IFO" file from the DVD burned using toast by GSMYTHE (thanks to Graham for a copy of the file) with the original torrented on this site.

There is only one byte in the IFO file which is different between the two versions - but this is obviously enough to change the MD5 checksums.

The difference is in the VMG_PTT_SRPT (Video Manager Title Play Map Table) and is the value of the "Title set starting sector" for title 1.

What that means is that there is absolutely no difference in the content of the two DVDs, just that Toast is positioning the files on the DVD in a different way to that predicted by the DVD authoring program (or by the first program to burn those files to DVD). Because of that, it has needed to adjust one of the sector pointers in the VIDEO_TS.IFO file for hardware players to still play it properly.

You could compare this problem with MD5 checksums of WAV files - two WAV files could contain slightly different headers (and therefore have different MD5 checksums), but the PCM data inside the WAV file (the "FLAC fingerprint" or "shntool MD5") could be identical.

So the solution would be to calculate MD5 checksums of just the important data inside the IFO and VOB files - but that's not an easy thing to do, especially as the DVD specifications are not published.
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  #45  
Old 2005-07-21, 01:00 PM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Darn, I forgot to post those ifos for you. Sorry.

Very interesting what went on. But, as you said, a solution to it is difficult. Too bad we don't have something similar to shntool md5s for them.
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