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  #16  
Old 2005-03-13, 09:02 PM
ffooky ffooky is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

I believe empty directories can cause problems with some BT clients.
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  #17  
Old 2005-03-13, 09:34 PM
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ozzyzak ozzyzak is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Maybe I'm using the wrong burning software, but I don't think I've been able to burn a video DVD in data mode. I've tried it under Linux as a data DVD with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folder and it wouldn't play in my standalone.
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  #18  
Old 2005-03-20, 08:24 PM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

This is a VERY interesting thread. I use Toast on a Mac and can confirm the same .ifo and .bup changing on some - but just some - DVDs. The guy saying he never had a problem with Toast and his Mac may be right, but if he did a full "compare" (utilities menu in Toast) or did md5 checksum files of the original and the copy, he might find some files changing.

I posted this observation to the official Roxio (makers of Toast) forums and got these replies:

<quote>

Well, I can tell you that Toast does have to modify the IFO files so that the Offsets are correct.

...

I'm just guessing here and I haven't tried it myself, but I think this could be happening.

If someone writes a Video_TS folder directly to the HD from an authoring application, or an application that doesn't do it correctly the offsets could be off. When Toast writes the VIDEO_TS folder the offsets get corrected and the resulting VIDEO_TS folder would fail to verify and compare.

If the VIDEO_TS folder was first burned to a disc, then that VIDEO_TS folder was taken from the disc and saved to the hard drive, the offsets should be correct already. In this case, when the VIDEO_TS folder got burned in Toast, no changes would be needed and the disc would verify.

When burning DVD Dual Layer in Toast, the IFO also needs to be updated to set the break point correctly.

<end quote>

So there you go. Someone suggesting running discs through Nero to "rectify" them - well that might be it and maybe Toast does the exact same thing. Toast is the gold standard app for DVD burning on the Mac. Always trusted it and never had problems before md5 checking came along :-)

Actually, when using MacTheRipper (Mac ripping app) to rip a DVD, then burning, the .ifo and .bup files ALWAYS change, same thing if I save as disc image from Toast so it's not the burning it's the file handling. This may be an example of what the Roxio guys said about certain authoring apps. IMO Ripping should never be performed on region free unencrypted DVDs like the ones we are trading, they should just be copied.

This is a difficult problem we're discussing here, and I'm just a user, not an expert. I have even seen Toast being determined to change .VOB files (again and again when repeated on different Macs and after re-downloading) with some very few torrented DVDs on EZT so I wonder what that's all about. They play fine, but md5 checksums are of course altered, and people who doesn't check if it's a perfect clone won't know but it isn't.

I wish someone would get to the bottom of this one!

Cheers,

PaulHarald
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  #19  
Old 2005-03-20, 08:34 PM
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feralicious feralicious is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

For trading, why not just make an image then burn it. It should be identical and pass verification.

For initial burning I use RecordNowMax! and they have never failed to verify. And it allows me to put the info and md5 and artwork outside the VIDEO_TS folder so that the md5 is in place to run its check on all items.

What about torrenting image files? As long as it's not a proprietary image and can be handled by all systems is there anything wrong with that?
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  #20  
Old 2005-03-20, 08:50 PM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feralicious
For trading, why not just make an image then burn it. It should be identical and pass verification.
It's not identical when made by Toast, and maybe that's the case with Nero as well. My guess is that it is, but I don't have a PC, just Macs.

The thing is: Toast makes these "necessary" (?) changes also when making a disc image. So it doesn't verify.
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  #21  
Old 2005-03-21, 01:12 AM
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feralicious feralicious is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

That's weird, the whole point of making an image is so that it is identical. Are you sure you're not copying on the fly?
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  #22  
Old 2005-03-21, 01:19 AM
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U2Lynne U2Lynne is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Paul, are you burning a Data Toast DVD or a Video Toast DVD?
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  #23  
Old 2005-03-21, 06:37 AM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Read my posts, especially the long one.

I am not even burning so no - I don't copy on the fly. While making a disc IMAGE (saved to the hard drive) with toast using a VIDEO_TS and an AUDIO_TS folder as source files, this happens with some DVDs. Yes, Nero and Toast seem to "correct" the .ifo and .bup files on some DVDs and the Roxio guy confirmed this.

And yes - it happens no matter if I use the Data Toast DVD or a Video Toast DVD function. And I don't even have to burn to see what happens.

(Actually, the Video DVD function in Toast that I believe was introduced with 6.0.7 is actually just a menu enhancement that also adds an AUDIO_TS folder automatically if you haven't done so already. The actual file format used is the same (UDF). If you are talking about MAKING and not copying a DVD using Toast, then there is no way to compare anything, as Toast multiplexes any files thrown at it and this is obviously not the way to make a perfect clone).

Md5 checksum comparison using xAct or any other md5 tool, or the "compare" function in Toast will show that files have altered, and doing this on any of my Macs generates the exact same results again and again with the same VIDEO_TS fileset.
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  #24  
Old 2005-03-21, 10:39 AM
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

So if you burn a disc with Toast then copy the VIDEO_TS folder to your computer from that DVD, then burn again with Toast the files are not altered further, right?
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  #25  
Old 2005-03-21, 11:39 AM
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feralicious feralicious is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHarald
Read my posts, especially the long one.

I am not even burning so no - I don't copy on the fly. While making a disc IMAGE (saved to the hard drive) with toast using a VIDEO_TS and an AUDIO_TS folder as source files, this happens with some DVDs. Yes, Nero and Toast seem to "correct" the .ifo and .bup files on some DVDs and the Roxio guy confirmed this.

And yes - it happens no matter if I use the Data Toast DVD or a Video Toast DVD function. And I don't even have to burn to see what happens.

(Actually, the Video DVD function in Toast that I believe was introduced with 6.0.7 is actually just a menu enhancement that also adds an AUDIO_TS folder automatically if you haven't done so already. The actual file format used is the same (UDF). If you are talking about MAKING and not copying a DVD using Toast, then there is no way to compare anything, as Toast multiplexes any files thrown at it and this is obviously not the way to make a perfect clone).

Md5 checksum comparison using xAct or any other md5 tool, or the "compare" function in Toast will show that files have altered, and doing this on any of my Macs generates the exact same results again and again with the same VIDEO_TS fileset.
I said for trading, so that's assuming you already have it burned, make an image of it (the disc), then burn that. That should be identical. Of course you have to burn it initially.
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  #26  
Old 2005-03-21, 02:52 PM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Hi,

Well, keep most of what I burn on a HD but you are absolutely right:

If I already have it burned and make a copy, no errors ever:

(Copy to desctop, compare, burn to disc, compare again)

...but burning from my VIDEO_TS folders on my hard drive (I have a TB) generate the same errors every time.
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  #27  
Old 2005-03-21, 03:14 PM
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Five Five is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

It seems to me like these are the SBEs of the video world...

So I'm thinking a couple things:

-Once the changes are made with Toast & can be copied & recopied without further changes to the files, would these files be further altered by a program like Nero? It would seem to me that these files have been subtlely corrected in some way.

-Is there an app that can check a VIDEO_TS folder on a HD to see if it will need to be "fixed" and if so can this program also prepare the files in the VIDEO_TS folder so that they can be burned with any DVD burning program (like Toast or Nero) without any further changes being made?

am I onto something or is this just wishful thinking?

Paul, have you ever downloaded a DVD and burned it with Toast and found no errors introduced?
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  #28  
Old 2005-03-21, 03:17 PM
4candles 4candles is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

One way to look at all this is to say that the DVD authoring process isn't complete until you have actually burned the VIDEO_TS folder to DVD.

So maybe the recommendation should be that DVDs are seeded from actual DVD copies, not from VIDEO_TS folders created by authoring software.

This is counter-intuitive for those coming from a CD-Audio, but there shouldn't be any risk of data corruption by addding a DVD generation into the lineage.

The only problem then would be if Nero and Toast (the two de-facto standard burning programs) have a different concept of what is right when they create the DVD image.
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  #29  
Old 2005-03-21, 08:52 PM
PaulHarald PaulHarald is offline
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five
It seems to me like these are the SBEs of the video world...

So I'm thinking a couple things:

-Once the changes are made with Toast & can be copied & recopied without further changes to the files, would these files be further altered by a program like Nero? It would seem to me that these files have been subtlely corrected in some way.

-Is there an app that can check a VIDEO_TS folder on a HD to see if it will need to be "fixed" and if so can this program also prepare the files in the VIDEO_TS folder so that they can be burned with any DVD burning program (like Toast or Nero) without any further changes being made?

am I onto something or is this just wishful thinking?

Paul, have you ever downloaded a DVD and burned it with Toast and found no errors introduced?
This thread is getting somewhere, which I can't say for the same attempts to make some sense at videohelp.com Apple Discussions or at the Roxio forums... :-)

Yes, many torrented DVDs have been burned without anything changing. Typically the "authored by me this and that way" kind of DVDs. It's usually the "i got this in a trade by some guy" DVDs that has the .ifo and .bup files changing.

Example: All 3 DVDs in the Pink Floyd Anthology DVD set was shared at EZT. I burned them all without errors or changes to any files. Great. Then I went to the Harvested-weeds site and got the MD5 files posted at the site and compared. Everything checked out OK except for the two .ifo files and the two .bup files of disc 3 only. Disc 1 and 2 was a perfect match for all files, so the seeder obviously had good copies.

Now just out of curiosity, I downloaded Disc 3 again and checked. The files in question did not match the "official" md5, but it's a good copy and Toast ket the files pass without "correcting" anything. Strange thing.

But sometimes I get a DVD from a torrent that doesn't get corrected at all, and when played there is a pause at each chapter break. My guess is that it's a badly authored DVD or something and nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

So yes, I think you are on to something. But what's the final word? I don't know.
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  #30  
Old 2005-03-22, 02:04 AM
h_vargas
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Re: Standards for physically trading and b&p'ing DVDs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feralicious
For initial burning I use RecordNowMax! and they have never failed to verify. And it allows me to put the info and md5 and artwork outside the VIDEO_TS folder so that the md5 is in place to run its check on all items.

What about torrenting image files? As long as it's not a proprietary image and can be handled by all systems is there anything wrong with that?
rock on!! i do the same - use RecordNow Max... for both archived DVDs and Video-DVDs. works flawlessly for me, and never had an issue with a DVD not playing in a settop player. and the un-changed IFOs/BUPs are quite a bonus, apparently.
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